Oscar Grant (BART Shooting) Trial Update

[Master of Ossus]

Involuntary manslaughter's the only one they could prove beyond reasonable doubt.

Well, according to his defense attorneys, yes.

Well, in what fashion do you think that the prosecutor proved the mens rea required for any higher offense beyond a reasonable doubt? The video simply doesn't correspond to anything higher than involuntary manslaughter through a mistake of fact. I would even go so far as to say that the judge could have directed verdict against murder and even voluntary manslaughter.

[CaptainChewbacca]

There's angry crowds on the streets of downtown and in front of the courthouse, but they're not yet interrupting regular TV programming.

Will keep ya posted.

[Bilbo]

What a fucking surprise. Holder who felt that blatant voter intimidation by Black Panthers in Philadelphia was not worth fully prosecuting is going to go the Clinton Administration route of sidestepping double jeopardy by investigating the case. So if they feel the courts were not harsh enough on this WHITE cop they are what? going to press charges that he violated the poor boys civil rights?

I knew when that line of BS was used in the Rodney King trial (whether it fixed an injustice or not) that the USSC should have slapped it down. One crime one trial, its one of the foundations of our legal system. Not that Clinton, and obvoiusly Obama, care much for our legal system.

[Bilbo]

There's angry crowds on the streets of downtown and in front of the courthouse, but they're not yet interrupting regular TV programming.

Will keep ya posted.

What does this make it? The second riot in California this year?

[Coyote]

After the OJ Simpon trial, the survivors' families went after him on civil-suit charges, too.

Given the economic situation in California, I would assume that place to be something of a powderkeg right at the moment, yes? Anyone living there get a sense of Rodney King-era unrest simmering?

[Bilbo]

After the OJ Simpon trial, the survivors' families went after him on civil-suit charges, too.

Given the economic situation in California, I would assume that place to be something of a powderkeg right at the moment, yes? Anyone living there get a sense of Rodney King-era unrest simmering?

Civil charges are by and individual and for financial compensation that is not covered in a criminal trial. The Justice Department going after the cop for "civil rights violations" a la Rodney King is getting hit with a second criminal trial for the same event.

Apples and oranges.

[Master of Ossus]

After the OJ Simpon trial, the survivors' families went after him on civil-suit charges, too.

But that was a civil suit for money damages. This is going to be another criminal suit for violation of federal law.

Technically it avoids double-jeopardy because the state and the country are separate sovereigns.

But I really can't see a conviction for violating civil rights emerging from this trial (unlike Rodney King). Here, there's at least a colorable argument that the guy made a mere mistake, rather than intending the kind of harm that occurred. Thus, the US DOJ shouldn't be able to show this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Given the economic situation in California, I would assume that place to be something of a powderkeg right at the moment, yes? Anyone living there get a sense of Rodney King-era unrest simmering?

No.

[Bilbo]

Given the economic situation in California, I would assume that place to be something of a powderkeg right at the moment, yes? Anyone living there get a sense of Rodney King-era unrest simmering?

No.

But it may result in the convenient "get yourself a free flat panel tv" riots.

[Havok]

OMG!!! OAKLAND HAS BURNED TO THE GROUND!!!

Oh wait... oops. My bad, like, nothing happened.

It is not a surprise that the feds are going to investigate as BART Police AFAIK are technically federal officers. The feds also usually wait until local issues are settled before they get involved as well if memory serves.

Oh and Bilbo, I am pretty sure that shooting someone in restraints that is face down on the ground, and y'know, killing them, may just violate their civil rights just a tad. I'm just guessing though.

[Bilbo]

OMG!!! OAKLAND HAS BURNED TO THE GROUND!!!

Oh wait... oops. My bad, like, nothing happened.

It is not a surprise that the feds are going to investigate as BART Police AFAIK are technically federal officers. The feds also usually wait until local issues are settled before they get involved as well if memory serves.

Oh and Bilbo, I am pretty sure that shooting someone in restraints that is face down on the ground, and y'know, killing them, may just violate their civil rights just a tad. I'm just guessing though.

Why yes, yes it does. It might even reach the same level as violating the Black Panthers standing armed outside a polling station intimidating voters. Oh wait, that case was dropped and swept under the rug. I guess if that had been KKK members in Mississippi then we would have had a full national attention federal case.

So I can assume that every single time someone is acquited of murder we are going to see federal charges put against them for possible Civil Rights violations? I mean who fucking needs Double Jeopardy. Lets just do whatever the fuck we want to kiss up to a group of people.

[CaptainChewbacca]

After the OJ Simpon trial, the survivors' families went after him on civil-suit charges, too.

Given the economic situation in California, I would assume that place to be something of a powderkeg right at the moment, yes? Anyone living there get a sense of Rodney King-era unrest simmering?

HAHAHA! You make it sound like we live in a TV movie.

[Thanas]

Why yes, yes it does. It might even reach the same level as violating the Black Panthers standing armed outside a polling station intimidating voters.

How is getting shot not a more major civil violation than getting maybe pressured by the black Panthers?

Oh wait, that case was dropped and swept under the rug. I guess if that had been KKK members in Mississippi then we would have had a full national attention federal case.

No, monsieur, the case was dropped because there was not enough evidence to proceed to trial.

So I can assume that every single time someone is acquited of murder we are going to see federal charges put against them for possible Civil Rights violations? I mean who fucking needs Double Jeopardy. Lets just do whatever the fuck we want to kiss up to a group of people.

I would have offered you a megaphone for your screeching, but apparently you manage to convey utter hyperventilating just fine without it.

[Coyote]

Well, let's see, you've got an economically depressed area, government being shut down in phases, a racially charged incident involving a white officer and a black suspect, immigration debates kicking into high gear, right-wing paranoia rhetoric ramping up for an election, and things were (economically) better off when the Rodney King riots kicked off. I think it's a fair question; in many places these are a lot of ingredients for civil unrest. Hell, add hot weather on top of that... I'm actually surprised there haven't been any demonstrations yet that involved a bit of tear gas and fire hoses. It's not like the state has zero history of clashes.

Is there just a sense of resigned defeat instead?

[Kanastrous]

Oh wait, that case was dropped and swept under the rug. I guess if that had been KKK members in Mississippi then we would have had a full national attention federal case.

No, monsieur, the case was dropped because there was not enough evidence to proceed to trial.

...although from a lay perspective it's difficult to see how the availability of a videotape recording of the BP guys doing their thing there is 'not enough evidence.'

[Thanas]

Oh wait, that case was dropped and swept under the rug. I guess if that had been KKK members in Mississippi then we would have had a full national attention federal case.

No, monsieur, the case was dropped because there was not enough evidence to proceed to trial.

...although from a lay perspective it's difficult to see how the availability of a videotape recording of the BP guys doing their thing there is 'not enough evidence.'

The videotape I have seen is not clear enough to what they are saying or what they are exactly doing there. If their exists videotape of them saying "Vote for Obama or else", then I'd like a link to it.

[Terralthra]

Hot weather? In Oakland? Not so much.

[Kanastrous]

The videotape I have seen is not clear enough to what they are saying or what they are exactly doing there. If their exists videotape of them saying "Vote for Obama or else", then I'd like a link to it.

I think we've seen the same tape. Their behavior doesn't look to me like it can be interpreted as anything but threatening but of course clear-enough-for-me may not be clear-enough-for-a-court.

[Master of Ossus]

Well, let's see, you've got an economically depressed area, government being shut down in phases, a racially charged incident involving a white officer and a black suspect, immigration debates kicking into high gear, right-wing paranoia rhetoric ramping up for an election, and things were (economically) better off when the Rodney King riots kicked off. I think it's a fair question; in many places these are a lot of ingredients for civil unrest. Hell, add hot weather on top of that... I'm actually surprised there haven't been any demonstrations yet that involved a bit of tear gas and fire hoses. It's not like the state has zero history of clashes.

You really have no idea what Oakland is like, do you?

Is there just a sense of resigned defeat instead?

People are frustrated, but I think they realize that it's the right ruling. It's hard to argue with the verdict, honestly.

Oh and Bilbo, I am pretty sure that shooting someone in restraints that is face down on the ground, and y'know, killing them, may just violate their civil rights just a tad. I'm just guessing though.

First of all, Grant was not restrained when this happened. According to at least some of the witnesses, Grant was continuing to resist officers who testified that they were trying to handcuff him when the shooting occurred. Mehserle claimed that he decided to tase Grant when he saw that Grant was reaching for his waist-band.

But more significantly, the civil rights that Grant had under federal statute and that Mehserle would likely be accused of violating (Official Misconduct, for instance under 18 USC 242) require intent ("willful conduct"). The jury in the state case didn't find intent to shoot Grant, nor can I imagine a reasonable jury finding it, given the circumstances. Thus, I conclude that Grant's civil rights were not violated.

[Elfdart]

What a fucking surprise. Holder who felt that blatant voter intimidation by Black Panthers in Philadelphia was not worth fully prosecuting is going to go the Clinton Administration route of sidestepping double jeopardy by investigating the case. So if they feel the courts were not harsh enough on this WHITE cop they are what? going to press charges that he violated the poor boys civil rights?

You are one dumb twat. First of all, it was the Justice Department under George H.W. Bush that investigated the police who beat Rodney King and charged them violating his civil rights. Clinton had nothing to do with it since the indictments came down in August 1992 and Clinton wasn't sworn in until January 1993. Second, double jeopardy only applies to the same charges. Murder and violation of a person's civil rights are two separate charges. Third, I saw the video of the "intimidation" by the Black Panthers and the reason there were no charges filed is because everyone was laughing too hard at these wankers to be intimidated by them. They were about as intimidating as any other toothless derelicts you find babbling incoherent bullshit in public. I'll wager that most of the people who saw these losers assumed they were bums huffing glue from a paper bag.

I knew when that line of BS was used in the Rodney King trial (whether it fixed an injustice or not) that the USSC should have slapped it down. One crime one trial, its one of the foundations of our legal system. Not that Clinton, and obvoiusly Obama, care much for our legal system.

You don't know Jack Shit. In fact, you know anyone who does know Jack Shit. Face it, you're an asshole.

[Master of Ossus]

Second, double jeopardy only applies to the same charges. Murder and violation of a person's civil rights are two separate charges.

That's not true. It applies to lesser included and more serious offenses stemming from the same incident. A prosecutor cannot try someone with murder, and then have a second bite at the apple by trying them again for manslaughter, nor can they do the opposite. The fact that these are "separate charges" is irrelevant. The civil rights thing gets around this because the federal government and the state are separate sovereigns and legally distinct for purposes of double jeopardy.

[Elfdart]

That's what I meant.

[Bilbo]

Second, double jeopardy only applies to the same charges. Murder and violation of a person's civil rights are two separate charges.

Fuck you, piece of shit twat bag. Your fucking splitting cock hairs as you pull them out of your teeth. By your fucked up logic just about every fucking felony can also be turned into a separate Civil Rights violation. So go shove it up your ass bit boy.

[eion]

The thing that still staggers me about this case is that neither Officer Mehserle, nor any of his colleagues, noticed that he had pulled out his firearm and not his Taser. Can we all agree at least that perhaps police departments should paint their Tasers bright yellow or something so that a police officer never has to ask himself, "Am I holding the gun-shaped thing I use to kill people, or the gun-shaped thing I use to cause them extreme pain and make them dance?"

I mean, either the cops was an idiot who can’t tell the difference in weight between a SIG Sauer P226 (30oz, unloaded) and a Taser (which can’t weight more than a pound) or I don’t know, he got distracted? Nice to know we’re training our officers so well.

Also if memory serves the last time a Los Angeles jury convicted a police officer of murder on the job was in the 1970s.

[Elfdart]

Second, double jeopardy only applies to the same charges. Murder and violation of a person's civil rights are two separate charges.

Fuck you, piece of shit twat bag. Your fucking splitting cock hairs as you pull them out of your teeth. By your fucked up logic just about every fucking felony can also be turned into a separate Civil Rights violation. So go shove it up your ass bit boy.

Only the ones where a person's civil rights were violated. By the way, have you tried Extra-Strength Pamprin?



I hear it works.

[Tanasinn]

Second, double jeopardy only applies to the same charges. Murder and violation of a person's civil rights are two separate charges.

Fuck you, piece of shit twat bag. Your fucking splitting cock hairs as you pull them out of your teeth. By your fucked up logic just about every fucking felony can also be turned into a separate Civil Rights violation. So go shove it up your ass bit boy.

That's a pretty fancy way of saying you concede defeat.