Was McCain Right?

[Stravo]

We are now at the half way point of Obama's presidency and I daresay some of his supporters have all felt moments of let down from the promise that he seemed to have for those who listened to his rhetoric.

In light of such things as the Oil Spill in the Gulf, the battle for Healthcare, the handling of criminal trials for terrorists in NYC, etc. You name the crisis and his response - do you get a troubling sense that MAYBE, just MAYBE McCain may have been right when he said Obama lacked the neccessary experience to take on a job with the kind or responsibilities that being chief executive requires or are you satisfied with his job performance so far or as a third option is he doing the best he can with the cards he's been dealt such as the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression?

Let me know. Also this is not the forum for Obama bashing or any of that other nonsense. It's a frank discussion about a criticism that was leveled against him now that we have actual instances of his decision making process and its results.

[Liberty]

I think that Obama's trying as hard as he can, but that he's a tad idealistic and the Republicans are fucking up everything he tries to do and being needlessly, and harmfully, obstructionist. That's my take, anyway.

[Big Phil]

I don't think the problem is Obama's lack of experience... I think it's more that he's just not the FDR throwback that everyone was hoping for. He's exactly what people who had their head removed from his ass said he was... a centrist who leans right on some issues, a somewhat weak leader who gives great speeches, a realist who is willing to compromise, and somewhat of a wuss who cares more about being liked and his legacy than a determined leader who's going to do what he thinks is right, and to hell with those who disagree.

Liberals are pissed because he's not liberal enough
Conservatives are pissed because he's not liberal enough, so they're just flat out making shit up
And Moderates are pissed because he doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything

[Bilbo]

I think that Obama's trying as hard as he can, but that he's a tad idealistic and the Republicans are fucking up everything he tries to do and being needlessly, and harmfully, obstructionist. That's my take, anyway.

What is the GOP doing that is obstructionist in the Gulf? You can argue that the judge who overruled the administration many be conservative but he had nothing to do with the shit slow response to the crisis or the 8 times Obama has played golf since the spill happened.

[Serafina]

Well - McCain could have possibly actually accomplished something simply because the GOP would not stand in his way like it does for Obama, and he would not give a rats ass about the opposition if he doesn't have to.

For the oil crisis, McCain might actually be better.
For health care, he would be worse or at best as inefficient as Obama, given his political ideology.
For Civil rights and whatnot - well, no, he would be worse.

Also, remember that McCain equals a potential Sarah Palin on the throne as president - hardly a risk worth taking.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Hey Bilbo, how many times did Bush golf during Katrina? Or the Iraq War? Or after 9/11?

Obama is doing the best he can, unfortunately the bastard is a honest damned "Idealist" and truly believes if he is just nice to others they will see things his way. He's like a puppy that doesn't know why people keep kicking it, and keeps going back hoping for a different result.

[Ariphaos]

The republicans on the Senate have blocked subpoena power for investigations. Likewise, all four governors failed to activate all of the Guard troops that they were assigned. In addition, Jindal is also blocking investigative attempts.

Obama might certainly bear some responsibility for naive or otherwise lethargic response but he's definitely not the sole problem.

[Bilbo]

Hey Bilbo, how many times did Bush golf during Katrina? Or the Iraq War? Or after 9/11?

Obama is doing the best he can, unfortunately the bastard is a honest damned "Idealist" and truly believes if he is just nice to others they will see things his way. He's like a puppy that doesn't know why people keep kicking it, and keeps going back hoping for a different result.

GWB stopped playing golf some time in 2002 at least according to some quick checks I did. There is arguements that he golfed a little past that period but he certainly did not golf at all from 2003 to 2008.

[Bilbo]

The republicans on the Senate have blocked subpoena power for investigations. Likewise, all four governors failed to activate all of the Guard troops that they were assigned. In addition, Jindal is also blocking investigative attempts.

Obama might certainly bear some responsibility for naive or otherwise lethargic response but he's definitely not the sole problem.

Yeah because sending in a legion of lawyers is so going to stop the oil from spilling in the Gulf. Now if you are suggesting that Obama Administration physically plug the leak with the bodies of federal government lawyers then that I am all for doing.

[The Spartan]

I think there's something else to keep in mind.

That even if McCain was right and Obama's not ready, for the leanings of most of the board, McCain would still be worse. Even the best case scenario would result in a "no worse" rating where, just to illustrate my point, the Oil Spill might be handled better, but Civil Rights would be handled far worse, where the job market might be better, but healthcare would be worse, etc.

[General Zod]

I think there's something else to keep in mind.

That even if McCain was right and Obama's not ready, for the leanings of most of the board, McCain would still be worse. Even the best case scenario would result in a "no worse" rating where, just to illustrate my point, the Oil Spill might be handled better, but Civil Rights would be handled far worse, where the job market might be better, but healthcare would be worse, etc.

I'd like to see someone make a case for how McCain would have handled the situation better myself. It's easy to say Obama's "inexperienced/incompetent/whatever", but I doubt McCain really would have done a better job.

[The Spartan]

I'm not making the argument that he necessarily would, I'm only using it to illustrate what I meant when I said McCain would be a wash compared to Obama. I'm also building my illustration off of Serafina's first post in the thread since that was the post I saw when I started making mine.

[General Zod]

I'm not making the argument that he necessarily would, I'm only using it to illustrate what I was saying about McCain being a wash compared to Obama. I'm also building my illustration off of Serafina's first post in the thread since that was the post I saw when I started making mine.

I wasn't saying you were, I was just building on top of your post.

[Solauren]

Look at the problems created and left for him by previous administrations (going back as far as Ronald Reagon)

Right now, Obama's job can be summed up at this:

He's got to clean out an Olympic sized swimming pool full of shit.
And all he's got to do it with is a tea-spoon. The other janitors hide all his equipment on him.

[Coyote]

I knew he was a moderate when voting for him, although I do wish he had a bit more aggressiveness for some things, and wasn't so close to the corporations... but then, asking a US politician to not be too close to the corporations is, well... impossible.

He's doing the best he can with what he has to work with, but remember that the Conservatards are fighting him with everything they have (although of course, not racism, oh no, never that ) and flat-out lying and sabotaging things just because he's a uppity Negro/Communist/Socialist/Kenyan usurper Democrat.

He also got handed a shit sandwich of an economy to work with, as well as wars and all sorts of crap. The oil spill had very little to do with him, but he's being lambasted for "inaction" as if every President personally does things like go to places where things are broken and fix it personally. [Again: ].

My biggest complaints about his administration so far is not so much with Obama himself but the spineless Democrats who got handed majorities in everything and had a real steamroller going after the election, but instead whimpered and waffled and wussed, doing whatever the fucking GOP whined about. Obama could have excoriated the Dems to do better, but in the long run folks like Reid and Pelosi need to grow some spinal tissue and start calling the Rethugs on their horseshit.

Still, a lot of small, quiet and important stuff has gone on off the radar and it is important to remember that. Regulations are being brought back in various businesses while people are distracted by buffoonery. Obama wins for quiet gains and victories, but by giving the GOP the appearance of relevance he adds credibility to their outlandish claims, IMO, which gives 'Baggers some inertia.

That's just me, though. And this board is, after all, a stacked deck in general.

[Stravo]

Just to clarify here - when I ask was McCain right I don't mean would McCain make a better choice. I'm asking does McCain's criticism have some validity in that Obama's inexperience is helping shape some of his bad decision making (if you think there has been) or can it all be chalked up to the shitty hand he was dealt. I in no way shape or form think McCain would have been a better choice nor is that the quesion on the table.

[aerius]

Back in 2008 I had conversations with some of my friends where they believed that, and I quote, "Obama is a useless empty suit with the best PR money can buy. He talks big but he will fail to deliver". I was willing to wait & see, but after seeing how he did nothing with financial reform, his hiring of a fucking tax cheat to run the Treasury, the healthcare reform dickup and now the BP boondoggle, I'm in full agreement with my friends. Yeah he got handed some lemons, but did he make lemonaide out of it? Fuck no.

He also hasn't learned how to play hardball. When trying to reach a compromise with the Republicans gets him assraped every time, what does he do? He bends over and asks for another raping. When is he gonna learn that it doesn't work, ain't gonna get shit done, and upsets his voter base?

I don't know if it's lack of experience, lack of balls, or maybe he just doesn't have what it takes to deal with the responsibilities of his position. He seems stuck in permanent campaign PR mode and has yet to get down and get shit done.

[Coyote]

He also hasn't learned how to play hardball. When trying to reach a compromise with the Republicans gets him assraped every time, what does he do? He bends over and asks for another raping. When is he gonna learn that it doesn't work, ain't gonna get shit done, and upsets his voter base?

To be honest, this is a problem that has been part & parcel with the entire Democratic Party for decades, not just Obama. The GOP simply tells them, "you guys are bad on issues like defense!" and the Dems just go, "we're bad on defense, so we'll argue about something else instead".

People forget what a strong pro-union, pro-labor movement used to exist in this country. In the 20's and 30's especially. The Red Scare shit and McCarthyism made any left-wing thought in the USA such anathema that to even mention the word "union" gets you accused of Communism, etc.

[Sarevok]

Obama is.... incompetent. The US political system is a very difficult place. You elect the guy who is not only stands for good but is skilled enough to make what he believes into reality. There are a lot of naive but nice people on the street but they wont make a good president. Sadly while Obama seems like a nice guy he does not have the will, determination or the political abilities to fulfill the changes he was so enthusiastic about before election.

[eion]

GWB stopped playing golf some time in 2002 at least according to some quick checks I did. There is arguements that he golfed a little past that period but he certainly did not golf at all from 2003 to 2008.

HA!

Arguments? there's video! He couldn't even make it 2 months. Please! And even if he stuck to it, so what? It's fucking golf. How does his giving it up actually help the troops? All it did was make him feel better, and maybe help him avoid lovely moments like this one:


He gave up desert too I heard, my what a big boy he was, so brave to go without his ice cream before bed.

Unlike Mr. Bush, Mr. Obama is an adult who understands that neither the troops nor the people of the golf care about whatever shallow and pointless sacrifice he might claim to make on their behalf, all they want to know is how he is going to help them. He's been down to the gulf 5 times now I think? It took Bush how long to FLY OVER Louisiana once after Katrina?

But anyway, this thread wasn't supposed to devolve into an Obama/Bush cockfight.

-----

He's doing the best he can given the crappy way the last tenants left the country. He still seems to think that he can actually win over the Republicans by the merits of his arguments, but it appears he's slowly being brought around by his fine staff to the fact that the GOP has no interest whatsoever in governing.

And every time the thought that maybe McCain wouldn't be so bad in Obama's place I read about all the flipflopping his doing in his primary battle and say 3 little words to myself: Vice President Palin.

[General Zod]

Just to clarify here - when I ask was McCain right I don't mean would McCain make a better choice. I'm asking does McCain's criticism have some validity in that Obama's inexperience is helping shape some of his bad decision making (if you think there has been) or can it all be chalked up to the shitty hand he was dealt. I in no way shape or form think McCain would have been a better choice nor is that the quesion on the table.

I see it as the best way to tell whether or not it really is a matter of 'experience' vs. being stonewalled by lockstep opposition or other factors outside of his control. Given the amount of Republicans that were willing to leap to BP's defense I have my doubts that it's just an experience issue.

[Knife]

Oh I think he has plenty of political experience. He was a moderate who sold himself to the progressives as one of them, now he is trying to be a centrist in a very polarized atmosphere. I think his 'failures' have more to do with his staff at the moment, and not necessarily with him, though perhaps 'playing it safe' is more his idea than his, if his staff prods and pokes him to take a stand on an issue, he'd be in a better spot on issues.

[Havok]

How can you say that the President is not at fault though. He is the President, wills are supposed to bend to his, not his to his staff.

[Knife]

That's the perception isn't it? But the job is huge, and sooner or later he's going to have to let things go to his staff. Whether this means for proof reading, policy construction, or just plain he doesn't have time to deal with XYZ. Problem with staff, though, is they come with their own agenda's, needs and wants. Right now, I don't think some of his advisers are even close to in sync with the President on some issues, whether or not the President would be stronger/weaker on any specific issue if they were not withstanding.

[General Zod]

How can you say that the President is not at fault though. He is the President, wills are supposed to bend to his, not his to his staff.

I'd say that's a lazy way of looking at it. I mean there's not a whole lot any President can do about a majority opposition vote if the opposition really hates the sitting President without ignoring the existing laws (which is what a lot of people complained about Bush doing, amusingly. . .), for example.