The Cost of Being Jewish

[Bob the Gunslinger]

My parents had no problem with atheism in the family. Neither did any of my peers. In my experience as an American "Jew", Reform Jews are pretty comfortable with atheists and atheism, and seem to prefer dealing with atheists to dealing with Christians or even overtly religious Jews.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the Torah is fine with non-Abrahamists, so long as they follow the seven laws for goyim.

From memory and in no particular order:
1. No idol worshiping. (This might be bad for some polytheists, but not for all.)
2. No Murder.
3. No sexual indecency, such as rape, adultery, etc.
4. No stealing/kidnapping.
5. No using God's name in vain. (I think. I understand the whole "name in vain" thing is more like "Don't use Y H V H to attempt to conjure Him or for blasphemous religious practices" as opposed to saying "don't say 'God damn it'".)
6. Do not tear a limb from living animal and eat it. (No cruelty to animals, basically.)
7. You must live in a society of laws. (Bad for Libertarians.)

So there are some restrictions, but not as many as you would think.

[Ace Pace]

Since one prominent feature of Judaism is the Covenant with the Children of Israel, I wonder with whom or what an Orthodox Jewish atheist believes he has a Covenant.

Unless atheistic Judaism means rigorous observance of practices without actually holding the associated faith. Which impresses me as kind of masochistic.

Well, I can see a possible point to it: it's something that the practitioner can structure their life around. All the routine, ceremony, regulations, etc. Some people really respond, to that.

And then there's plain old-fashioned tribalism.

What you said and some more. Judaism provides a very strong and community oriented life. In Israel, not so much revolving around the synagogue as the people you meet there. I think it's rather understandable, more so in Israel, that someone would prefer to stay in a social system that provides community support to those who needs it than go into a very unstructured environment.

[Coyote]

That doesn't seem to jive with reality, Coyote.

If Judaism was that tolerant of athiests, then Jewish parents wouldn't have a problem with their daughter dating an athiest, would they? They wouldn't have a problem with going over to an athiest neighbor's house for dinner, even if the neighbor promised to keep it kosher. And the Torah is pretty explicit with what it says about people who don't believe specifically in the God of Abraham (up to and including suggesting executing them), but no one seems to be willing to edit those parts to something a bit less hateful.

And Christianity says "turn the other cheek" and "cast not the first stone", and we see how well every Christian follows that, eh? I can't speak for the actions of individuals who choose to be assholes. Obviously, just because Judaism allows for atheist thought doesn't mean that every Jewish person is going to just go along with no hang-ups. Secular humanism or atheism hasn't started any wars, but that doesn't mean that there are no atheist douchebags out there.

The people I've met who actually think about these things tend to be fairly enlightened. But most people don't really think about these things, they get a certain portion of the rules in their mind and cling to them, while ignoring the rest. Christians in particular love the parts about "if a man lay with another man as with a woman, both have sinned; both shall be stoned to death". They love that part. But they totally blow off the parts about eating shellfish or pork, or that they are supposed to also stone their children to death if they are disrespectful.

Remember that I am talking about discussions I had with Kabbalist Rabbis in Israel who really impacted my way of thinking about Judaism. These are people who basically do a lot of thinking about the nature of the religion and what it means to people in their daily lives; how to be relevant in a changing world and so on.

[Kanastrous]

Well you have to remember, Judaism, while the sect is called Orthodox, it is really an Orthoprax religion. It does not matter if you actually believe in God, the religion itself can accommodate an atheist so long as they follow the rules.

That seems really senseless (not of you to observe, but for anyone to do). The whole damn thing revolves around a Covenant, and to paraphrase Baltar how can you have a one-sided bargain? The individual who practices without actual belief impresses me as, well, some kind of faker who's mouthing the words and going through the motions for...what? There's no one on the other end of the line, and the faker knows it but keeps mouthing away anyway...

Well, I guess if it makes them happy, it doesn't really call for too much scrutiny...

As for the atheist, well... it is an ethnicity.

Considering that one can walk around Tel Aviv etc and see European-looking 'white' Jews, South-Asian and African-looking 'brown' and 'black' Jews, and even the odd Jew with Asiatic-looking features, I don't really buy the idea that 'Jewish' means an ethnicity. Sure, an individual can persuade themselves of whatever they like but trying to convince me that a Falashi and an Ashkenazi and a Sepahrdic Jew are all one singular 'ethnicity' is a very, very tough sell.

And ethnically-based loyalties are as cheap and contemptible as they come. Even if they're probably the most common.

They do all the ritual etc because it is part of their culture, they grew up with it, and it is part of their identity.

Yeah. Never underestimate the combined power of conditioning and inertia.

It seems masochistic to an outsider, but if you are raised with it, it is what you know. There is comfort in that.

I was raised in it, thoroughly educated in it and I detest (or merely dislike) virtually every aspect of it, with the exception of some of the traditional cuisine (which is in the main more European, than specifically Jewish).

YMMV.

[Coyote]

We may never know the motivations behind an atheist Jew's decision to conform to the practices while not holding the beliefs. I have a suspicion that each one is motivated by his or her own reasons. Most of the atheist Jews I've met are "socially Jewish" or identify with the culture, many times to appease family, or because they just like the crowd they hang with at the Synagogue. But they freely admit to eating bacon or shrimp or whatever.

I believe the opening line of Anna Karenina is something like, "All happy families tend to be happy in the same ways, while unhappy families each have their own unique reasons for being unhappy". If a person is "technically" Jewish but is also an atheist, each one will probably have to be taken on their own merits. Many may not be as "atheist" as they think they are, and simply "doubt" or see "God" as just the anthropomorphised identity that people have given the natural forces of the Universe.

As to Jewish identity being tribalist or ethnic, I think a lot of it is culture more so than a real ethnicity. One of the problems with defining Jewish identity is that so much of what makes "Jewish identity" has actually been defined by people historically opposed to Jews or Judaism, so a lot of it is "this is what Jews are not" more so than "this is what Jews are". When part of your cultural identity is made that way, there's going to be some confusion and debate.

[Kanastrous]

Since I can't remember the attribution this will have to stand as apocryphal but some years back it was floating around that a HAMAS (or perhaps AAMB) op noted that hiding a suicide attacker among Israelis was comparatively easy once over the border because 'Jews come in all colors and races.' Which of course contradicts the whole anti-Jewish 'they're an awful race' bit but of course one doesn't expect consistency from idealogues.

[Broomstick]

That doesn't seem to jive with reality, Coyote.

If Judaism was that tolerant of athiests, then Jewish parents wouldn't have a problem with their daughter dating an athiest, would they?

Most Jews that I have had experience with, which range from "fundy Jews" to very Reform, would have less problem with their daughter (or son - because who your son marries is important, too!) dating an atheist Jew than a non-atheist Jew. (An atheist Jew, of course, is someone Jewish by descent even if not by religion) The atheism they're not crazy about, but Jew vs. non-Jew is even more important.

They wouldn't have a problem with going over to an athiest neighbor's house for dinner, even if the neighbor promised to keep it kosher.

And some Jews really don't have a problem with that, although keeping strict kosher, on the level of the Orthodox, is not something one does casually or easily so the average non-Jew won't be able to serve food in accordance with kosher laws. It's not just a matter of avoiding pork and not mixing meat and dairy - the dishes for meat and dairy have to be kept strictly separate at all times, as just one example. If you wash dishes for meat and dishes for dairy together at the same time both dishes are no longer suitable for kosher food. There are Orthodox Jews who won't eat dinner at the home of a Reform Jew because they don't view them as keeping properly strict kosher, so really, it's not about atheist or believer, or Jew and gentile, but rather how their dietary laws are written. If a gentile person wishes to set up a kosher kitchen they certainly can, and there are many gentile owned food companies who hire rabbis to help them through the kosher certification process (this is actually getting more popular, I'm told) resulting in kosher food produced wholly by gentiles that is seen as acceptable to Jews who keep kosher.

[Kanastrous]

I once only half-jokingly asked my parents if they would prefer that I brought home a non-Jewish girl, or a Jewish boy. They had to think about it.

[Simon_Jester]

Well you have to remember, Judaism, while the sect is called Orthodox, it is really an Orthoprax religion. It does not matter if you actually believe in God, the religion itself can accommodate an atheist so long as they follow the rules.

That seems really senseless (not of you to observe, but for anyone to do). The whole damn thing revolves around a Covenant, and to paraphrase Baltar how can you have a one-sided bargain? The individual who practices without actual belief impresses me as, well, some kind of faker who's mouthing the words and going through the motions for...what? There's no one on the other end of the line, and the faker knows it but keeps mouthing away anyway...

I don't think that's what they're getting at. Here's what I think is going on:

From the point of view of Orthodox Judaism, what matters is that you keep up your side of the Covenant. If you do, you're not faking, by definition, because you're being graded on participation, not on your personal love of God. So I can understand how an atheist who follows Jewish religious law can be accepted by the Orthodox sect- it's sort of like an anarchist being the citizen of a country. They don't like countries, they don't revere countries... but as long as they pay their taxes and follow the legal code, it doesn't matter what they think; they get the protection anyway.

As for why the atheist would keep following the Jewish laws, the only reason I can imagine to do it is to express cultural solidarity with the ethnic group you're attached to. Which, from the point of view of the Orthodox sect, is the main point of the religion in any case: it's about solidarity. The Jewish version of the Covenant is a collective relationship with God, not a personal one; God approached the entire Israelite society and made a bargain along the lines of "Wear these silly hats and do this little dance and I will watch over you." You don't have to love him to be a part of that deal. You don't even have to believe he exists- but you do have to wear the hat and dance the dance.

[Gil Hamilton]

And Christianity says "turn the other cheek" and "cast not the first stone", and we see how well every Christian follows that, eh? I can't speak for the actions of individuals who choose to be assholes. Obviously, just because Judaism allows for atheist thought doesn't mean that every Jewish person is going to just go along with no hang-ups. Secular humanism or atheism hasn't started any wars, but that doesn't mean that there are no atheist douchebags out there.

No one is defending Christian hypocrisy or douchebags. You are implying that it's just people being assholes, but most Conservative and Orthodox Jews do this. Since Judaism is the collective sum of its members, if it is true for the majority, it is true for the institution. Not only that, it's on record. Acting this way is SPECIFICALLY outlined in Jewish text, like the Torah. Being separate from Gentiles is EXPLICITLY stated and you better believe people act on it, particularly the really Orthodox ones.

The people I've met who actually think about these things tend to be fairly enlightened. But most people don't really think about these things, they get a certain portion of the rules in their mind and cling to them, while ignoring the rest. Christians in particular love the parts about "if a man lay with another man as with a woman, both have sinned; both shall be stoned to death". They love that part. But they totally blow off the parts about eating shellfish or pork, or that they are supposed to also stone their children to death if they are disrespectful.

Above you said :

Basically, all you have to do is obey the rules-- even if you don't like them, or agree with them, or even think they are total bullshit, you obey the rules and do as God asks (even if you don't believe in God) you can get the ticket punched. The rules, of course, are the mitzvahs about making the world a better place. So even an atheist can still be included and it is not considered a "threat" in Judaism to have no faith or belief in God. In Christianity it would be seen as a personal crisis, since Christianity is totally staked on that alone.

In other words, the key to being a good Jew is follow all the rules, by your own admission. You are openly stating here that the rules laid out are specific for making the world a better place; that means savaging beating disrespectful children and homosexuals makes the world a better place. Living seperately from Gentiles makes the world a better place. Shunning (or worse) non-believers makes the world a better place. Every one is Biblically correct.

Take the last one. 100,000 Jews who REALLY believe in Judaism recently rioted to live separately from people they considered non-believers, even those were other Jews, just ones who weren't strict enough! Imagine what they say about atheists! 100,000 people is quite alot to dismiss as some assholes cherry picking, given that's a significant percentage of Israel's population and doubly since their whole argument is that they DON'T cherry pick.

Remember that I am talking about discussions I had with Kabbalist Rabbis in Israel who really impacted my way of thinking about Judaism. These are people who basically do a lot of thinking about the nature of the religion and what it means to people in their daily lives; how to be relevant in a changing world and so on.

Then I take it they are going to start removing all the hateful parts of their book, then?

[Kanastrous]

I don't think that's what they're getting at. Here's what I think is going on:

From the point of view of Orthodox Judaism, what matters is that you keep up your side of the Covenant. If you do, you're not faking, by definition, because you're being graded on participation, not on your personal love of God. So I can understand how an atheist who follows Jewish religious law can be accepted by the Orthodox sect- it's sort of like an anarchist being the citizen of a country. They don't like countries, they don't revere countries... but as long as they pay their taxes and follow the legal code, it doesn't matter what they think; they get the protection anyway.

As for why the atheist would keep following the Jewish laws, the only reason I can imagine to do it is to express cultural solidarity with the ethnic group you're attached to. Which, from the point of view of the Orthodox sect, is the main point of the religion in any case: it's about solidarity. The Jewish version of the Covenant is a collective relationship with God, not a personal one; God approached the entire Israelite society and made a bargain along the lines of "Wear these silly hats and do this little dance and I will watch over you." You don't have to love him to be a part of that deal. You don't even have to believe he exists- but you do have to wear the hat and dance the dance.

A collective relationship with something that you don't believe is there is no different than a personal relationship with something you don't believe is there.

Yeah, this 'cultural solidarity' business is something I've run across, before. The idea that professing a religion means promoting its model of reality doesn't impress these types; it's all about this sort of stubborn gritted-teeth we have an identity to maintain! business. The fact that by admitting that the theology is nonsensical and unreal you also admit that the identity predicated upon it is itself arbitrary and essentially pointless does not filter through...

Well, anyway, there's a constitutionally-guaranteed right to indulge to your heart's content in your own chosen flavor of crazy. No need for anyone else to understand it.

[Coyote]

No one is defending Christian hypocrisy or douchebags. You are implying that it's just people being assholes, but most Conservative and Orthodox Jews do this. Since Judaism is the collective sum of its members, if it is true for the majority, it is true for the institution.

I didn't say I was defending hypocrite Christians, I was pointing out how the practices (and people who claim to practicie it) differ from the written instructions. And the written instructions are selectively interpreted, rationalized, or spun to suit a local community.

There are modern day Christians who use the Bible to justify white superiority over Blacks. And yet it was numerous Church groups (most notably the Quakers) who were literally the standard bearers for Abolition. "Christianity" and "Judaism" both encompass large swathes of communities that can be wildly different, enough so that it would be difficult for an impartial observer to realize that they are all claiming to follow the same philosophy. Judiasm is not a monolithic bloc any more than Christianity is.

... Not only that, it's on record. Acting this way is SPECIFICALLY outlined in Jewish text, like the Torah. Being separate from Gentiles is EXPLICITLY stated and you better believe people act on it, particularly the really Orthodox ones.

The instructions also say to be welcoming to the "goy" (the people of other nations) "who is a stranger among you".

Remember that the whole thing about keeping kosher dietary laws came from one passage that said "thou shalt not boil a calf in it's mother's milk". Judaism does not adhere to Biblical literacy, so it (as were many things) was taken as a metaphor. Probably very few people were actually, literally, milking cows and then boiling the milk and tossing that particular cow's calf into the boiling pot. So it was taken as figurative.

Most of the laws modern Jews adhere to are based on ancient Rabbincal interpretations of what was written.

The people I've met who actually think about these things tend to be fairly enlightened. But most people don't really think about these things, they get a certain portion of the rules in their mind and cling to them, while ignoring the rest. Christians in particular love the parts about "if a man lay with another man as with a woman, both have sinned; both shall be stoned to death". They love that part. But they totally blow off the parts about eating shellfish or pork, or that they are supposed to also stone their children to death if they are disrespectful.

Above you said :

Basically, all you have to do is obey the rules-- even if you don't like them, or agree with them, or even think they are total bullshit, you obey the rules and do as God asks (even if you don't believe in God) you can get the ticket punched. The rules, of course, are the mitzvahs about making the world a better place. So even an atheist can still be included and it is not considered a "threat" in Judaism to have no faith or belief in God. In Christianity it would be seen as a personal crisis, since Christianity is totally staked on that alone.

In other words, the key to being a good Jew is follow all the rules, by your own admission. You are openly stating here that the rules laid out are specific for making the world a better place; that means savaging beating disrespectful children and homosexuals makes the world a better place. Living seperately from Gentiles makes the world a better place. Shunning (or worse) non-believers makes the world a better place. Every one is Biblically correct.

Technically, yes, if we were Biblical Literalists. I don't know of any Jews that follow those mitzvahs about stoning gays or disrespectful children. Most of the rules that are followed today revolve around the things like dietary laws and modest dress. Remember, Judaism is not really supposed to see the Bible as literal, but rather as metaphor. It is intended to be interpreted at some level, which means that it will be interpreted to suit modern times and modern sensibilities. Stoning gays and brats to death these days tends to be frowned on, and it would do Judaism more harm than good. It does not serve the notion of making the world a better place, since "making the world a bvetter place" now is seen as "being more tolerant".

Now, remember that "making the world a better place" means differnt things to different people. I'm sure most people here would say, "well, if the Jews want to make the world a better place, they should disband Judaism and dispense with their foolish ideas". But that is not likely to happen and is unrealistic, and Judaism is hoping to make the world a better place within the context of the world as it exists today, which includes religions. So they are going to want to maintain Judaism as a culture, it is survival. In some cases, that means you're going to find people who are very defensive about it and don't want their daughter cavoprting with an atheist. I've also met Jews who don't really care.

You've brought this situation up to me before, in past conversations about Judaism. It's like you're asking me to rationalize or defend this family's actions. I'm not going to because I would have handled it differently if I were the parents. What I'm saying is that Jews are different, there's a wide spectrum of Jews out there, some are really dickish assholes (I certainly don't want to claim those Settlement assholes, for example) and some are not. And there are some who are indecisive, or sorta stuck-up on some things but easygoing on others.

Take the last one. 100,000 Jews who REALLY believe in Judaism recently rioted to live separately from people they considered non-believers, even those were other Jews, just ones who weren't strict enough! Imagine what they say about atheists! 100,000 people is quite alot to dismiss as some assholes cherry picking, given that's a significant percentage of Israel's population and doubly since their whole argument is that they DON'T cherry pick.

There are also a lot of Jews who did not riot, and Jews who expand Settlements, and even Jews who demonstrate against Settlements, and Jews who don't even believe the nation of Israel should exist at all, and Jews who went into Settlements and forcibly removed them, and Jews who want to kill Arabs, and Jews who marry Arabs and have children with them. I know it would be delightfully easy to say "All Jews do ______" so you can wrap everything up in a easy bundle and toss it as you see fit. In fact, feel free to do so; I can't or won't stop you because clearly you are personally burned by this and it bugs you to this day.

[quoute="Gil Hamilton"][quote="Coyote']Remember that I am talking about discussions I had with Kabbalist Rabbis in Israel who really impacted my way of thinking about Judaism. These are people who basically do a lot of thinking about the nature of the religion and what it means to people in their daily lives; how to be relevant in a changing world and so on.[/quote]
Then I take it they are going to start removing all the hateful parts of their book, then?[/quote]
I don't know, are they? They already don't follow certain things like stoning gays and brats; I can only suppose that they have rationalized or interpreted it (or "spun" or "whitewashed" it if you wish) to suit modern sensibilities. Probably by saying something about how "that was the way things were done back in the Bronze Age, but not anymore". Which is probably true.

Clearly the experiences I've had with Judaism are very different than your experiences. Yours were frustrating and angry and confrontational, and for reasons I consider to be, well, pretty priggish, yes. If it means anything to you at all, I would have done it differently, but I'm sure that's small comfort. Not all Jews are like that. Some are. Same with Christians. Some are nice, some are cocks. You'll find that every society or culture, no matter how you divide it, will have a certain percentage of shitheads and a certain percentage of saints. Even without religion involved.

Would you also be indignant and worked up if someone's parents were just super-conservative, and pressured their daughter not to date a liberal, and religion wasn't even on the radar throughout the whole situation?

[Kanastrous]

It's really a spectrum - for example, is one sufficiently crazy and detached from reality that one believes there's a God who wants them to slaughter gays, adulterers and disrespectful children, or merely sufficiently crazy and detached from reality that one believes in a God that doesn't mind, if they don't?

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, this 'cultural solidarity' business is something I've run across, before. The idea that professing a religion means promoting its model of reality doesn't impress these types; it's all about this sort of stubborn gritted-teeth we have an identity to maintain! business. The fact that by admitting that the theology is nonsensical and unreal you also admit that the identity predicated upon it is itself arbitrary and essentially pointless does not filter through.

Well, I am not a Jewish atheist/atheist Jew/whatever. I can sort of see it from an existential viewpoint: "My cultural identity is based on an arbitrary conceit and is therefore meaningless, but so are all other cultural identities. And I prefer having a group identity to being an atomized random person. Therefore, I choose to follow the rituals of this culture, purely because I desire to remain a member of a culture, rather than being an isolated leaf on the breeze."

I can respect that, because I don't expect people to be purely rational in their choice of group identification. Motives like loyalty are often irrational, but very human, and I have some irrational loyalties myself. So I'm not going to criticize someone else who does, as long as they're not hurting people over it. I'm not even going to sneer and say "you have a right to believe whatever crazy shit you want;" I'm willing to respect their belief, even though I would never share it in their shoes.

[Kanastrous]

I think that having a group identity vs being an atomized random person is a false dichotomy. As a stretch, can you posit any alternatives that might fall in-between?

And I fail to see why the mere fact that a set of beliefs is held, makes those beliefs worthy of respect. As a matter of law people's right to pursue those beliefs may be protected and entitled to 'respect' in terms of non-interference, but that doesn't suggest that a belief-system is to be respected simply because it exists.

[Saurencaerthai]

That doesn't seem to jive with reality, Coyote.
If Judaism was that tolerant of athiests, then Jewish parents wouldn't have a problem with their daughter dating an athiest, would they?

Careful, this is where you can get into trouble when you speak in general terms. A Jew from the reform movement might not care if they intermarried. A Jew from the Conservative movement might not care so long as the person is an atheist from a Jewish background. An Orthodox Jew might go into seizures. YMMV depending on who you ask.

They wouldn't have a problem with going over to an athiest neighbor's house for dinner, even if the neighbor promised to keep it kosher.

This is a concern about stringent observance of kashrut laws, not tolerance/intolerance of atheists. This applies to all other religion and creeds.

And the Torah is pretty explicit with what it says about people who don't believe specifically in the God of Abraham (up to and including suggesting executing them), but no one seems to be willing to edit those parts to something a bit less hateful.

The Torah is not the only guide of Jewish practice and numerous observances/customs have explicitly been discontinued or altered.

[Simon_Jester]

I think that having a group identity vs being an atomized random person is a false dichotomy.

And yet some people honestly feel that they have to make that choice. If they are not a member of their group, an active participant in the group... who are they? They are, in their own eyes, simply isolated persons.

This is a psychological observation, not a law of the universe. I can't say they are objectively right to feel like something is missing when they aren't part of a community of like-minded thinkers. But it's a real phenomenon in modern society, and I'm sympathetic to people who try to fight it by forming their own communities, or by choosing to adhere to existing ones.

As a stretch, can you posit any alternatives that might fall in-between?

Easily, and I'm happy living in them. But I'm not going to demand that everyone else occupy my own personal comfort zone. Some people do not feel happy without the knowledge that they are one of a large number of people who share their lifestyle, who speak a common cultural language. I don't have a problem with that.

And I fail to see why the mere fact that a set of beliefs is held, makes those beliefs worthy of respect. As a matter of law people's right to pursue those beliefs may be protected and entitled to 'respect' in terms of non-interference, but that doesn't suggest that a belief-system is to be respected simply because it exists.

Well, there are differing degrees of respect. I choose to use a fairly broad definition- not all things I tolerate are things I respect, but quite a few are.

I could adopt a more restricted definition and say "no irrational belief is worthy of my respect." And that would obviously extend to religious beliefs.

But refusing to respect other people's irrational beliefs as a category would be incredibly antisocial of me. To take an obvious example, pretty much every committed relationship I've ever seen between two people was on some level irrational. Yes this is a nice person, but why are they that important to you? I don't think that's a question that can be answered rationally... and I don't think it should require a rational answer.

And yet I respect other people's commitment to a marriage, even though I can't come up with a series of syllogisms that gives them an ironclad reason to be so committed.

Likewise, I respect other people's willingness to inconvenience themselves (and themselves only) out of a sense of community. I seldom share it, since it's usually not my community. I often disagree with it (why not eat cheeseburgers?). But I choose to respect it because I think human beings would, by and large, be less happy if they did not form irrational commitments to groups. We are social animals, and we evolved to belong to tribes. I don't think we're wired to handle the idea of not belonging to tribes, so I choose to respect other people's self-selected tribes the same way I respect their self-selected marriages.

Now, that's not a blank check. Fanatical commitments, commitments that harm others, those are unworthy of respect. But that doesn't mean all irrational commitments are unworthy of respect.