Which science fiction universe has the worst tactics?

[Ronsu]

Yeah, man. Mel Gibson´s daughter blessed glasses of holy water around the house by just touching the water with her lips.
The invasion was propably stopped by kung-fu clergymen patrolling the streets with holy super soakers.

[Joe Momma]

The Lost Fleet universe (written by Jack Campbell) might fall under this category as well, though in that case it's deliberate. The military forces in question have through a combination of historical circumstance and cultural expectations degenerated into tactics built around simply charging in as quickly as possible and slugging it out. The situation gets turned around when a fleet officer who spent the last century in suspended animation aboard an escape pod is recovered. The officer is not an ubergenius tactician by his own admission, but he comes off that way by comparison due to having come from a time that emphasized and trained for using a full range of tactics and not just the all-out frontal assault.

[MysteriousDarkLordv3]

The Honorverse novels were built around bad tactics. In fact, it's the major plot element of the series - that every space-navy has these set, traditional tactics that make battles into set-piece dances, and Captain Plot-Device - um, that is, Miss Harrington - comes along and shows everyone how much a brilliant tactician she is (while simultaneously finding the Holy Grail, but that's another rant). And Miss Harrington's "brilliant innovations to tactical doctrine" usually boil down to "sucker-punch" and "rope-a-dope". (Not enough actual ground combat is shown to give a real opinion.)

[Terralthra]

Yes, that's a pithy, yet completely inaccurate reading of the novels. It's the rapidly advancing technology that changes the tactics, not the protagonist. The set-piece long battles of attrition were the only viable tactics before the various advances in the novels. Honor was just one of the front-line tactical officers to first command some of these systems.

It should be noted that she was just as resistant to the new tactics and strategies advocated by the admirals pushing the research that created most of the systems involved.

Also, almost all really successful individual engagement tactics involve either superior capability, superior intelligence, or both. Both sucker-punching and rope-a-dope fall into these categories, as do all of her victories.

[Jalinth]

The Honorverse novels were built around bad tactics. In fact, it's the major plot element of the series - that every space-navy has these set, traditional tactics that make battles into set-piece dances, and Captain Plot-Device - um, that is, Miss Harrington - comes along and shows everyone how much a brilliant tactician she is (while simultaneously finding the Holy Grail, but that's another rant). And Miss Harrington's "brilliant innovations to tactical doctrine" usually boil down to "sucker-punch" and "rope-a-dope". (Not enough actual ground combat is shown to give a real opinion.)

Not sure how the Honorverse tactics are "bad". The physics Weber set out (like it or not) made 18th century style naval combat very sensible at the start of the series. It has started changing because of the technological changes, but space warfare was pretty static for centuries. As far as "sucker punch", most of the "sucker punches" I recall were either deception or being able to read and anticipate your opponents - something promoted all the way back by Sun Tzu. How much true tactical innovation has taken place even now? You can trace the most lines of thinking back through to Clausewitz, Caesar, Alexander, and Sun Tzu (add in your favourite thinker here).

[thegreatpl]

My interpretation of the Honorverse is that at the beginning of the series, Missile defenses were so good that it was useless to go one on one between 2 superdreadnoughts at range. Instead, they closed to energy range to engage, which were much closer and the enemy could detach much easier. Been a while since i read the books, but i think that it was primarily early fleet battles where you could win using tactics like trickery and slight of hand.

You could make the case for the Havenites being tactically very bad, but they had reason since all their experienced officers had been killed off in the revolution, and the remainder limited depending on whoever became their political officer.

Tactics would of course change when you factor in Pods and FTL. They change slowly at first, but much faster when you get CLACs and SD(P)s. You have basically introduced a completely new and successful weapon, and when that happens, tactics change. Or rather, the tactics to be used changes.

[TC27]

If I had to think too much about the 'Signs' aliens I would say that they are probaly on some kind of ritualistic bloodsport expedition or are doing it for fun and the challenge so dont use their technology and expose themselves to lethal danger becuase it gets their rocks off ETC ETC

Lots of humans often behave irrationaly despite our technology - there is no reasons Aliens wouldnt be the same.

[Ellindsey]

Signs is actually about an alien Reality TV show. The aliens who are actually in charge take a bunch of condemned prisoners, dump them naked on Planet Acid, watch how long it takes them to survive, and laugh. It's the only way the movie makes any sense.

[Themightytom]

Yeah, man. Mel Gibson´s daughter blessed glasses of holy water around the house by just touching the water with her lips.
The invasion was propably stopped by kung-fu clergymen patrolling the streets with holy super soakers.

I choose to assume that was some kind of nonmilitary shore party. The soldiers were out fighting in the cities challenging our military as opposed to the three @ssholes harassing a farmhouse. that was probably an alien Spring break gone wrong.

Stargate Atlantis (Wraith): bombard underwater city until ???? and then assume it is destroyed, ignore for 10 thousand years.

Seaquest (Kraytaks): Build a massive interstellar spaceship, only one, and use its tractor beams to smack rebel space stations out of orbit of your planet. travel across the galaxy and obtain a primitive submarine full of rebel sympathizers to guard your base.


Outlaw Star: Fly your ship up into the face of another and start beating it with robotic arms attached to your ship.

War of The Worlds, Every Version: Spacesuits are unnecessary, we'll just breath what they have there...



Earth Star Voyager and Earth 2 should get an honorable mention for being poorly considered missions but they weren't really military ventures.

[Sea Skimmer]

Its been a long time, but didn't the ship in Earth 2 get blown up by deliberate sabotage, destroying most of the equipment and killing most of the crew, as a result of 't the government trying to fuck them over the whole time? It seems like in that context, basically fleeing an oppressive planet in a private spaceship, that simply having arrived with anyone alive at all was a major accomplishment.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Its been a long time, but didn't the ship in Earth 2 get blown up by deliberate sabotage, destroying most of the equipment and killing most of the crew, as a result of 't the government trying to fuck them over the whole time? It seems like in that context, basically fleeing an oppressive planet in a private spaceship, that simply having arrived with anyone alive at all was a major accomplishment.

Yes, that was pretty much it. The interstellar colony ship blew up before they could land anything properly and the survivors made an emergency landing in landing crafts. If I remember correctly, the colony ship was not capable of landing at all, but I'm not sure about that.

[Xenophon13]

Terminator. The stupid things do this whole stride forward slowly thing so the hero can get back up when we know very well that they can run.

Also, one would think that they could just kill sarah in infancy or something.

Finally, wouldn't the emp from the nukes do huge damage to skynet?

[Nephtys]

Macross F has a really goofy scene that comes to mind. The only fleet action between two human fleets shown in any series of that universe.

5km-long Spacecraft Carrier turns into giant humanoid 'battle configuration', and punches the enemy carrier of a similar class through the chest.

[Uraniun235]

Macross F has a really goofy scene that comes to mind. The only fleet action between two human fleets shown in any series of that universe.

5km-long Spacecraft Carrier turns into giant humanoid 'battle configuration', and punches the enemy carrier of a similar class through the chest.

This, of course, was after the smaller Spacecraft Carrier also turned into a humanoid configuration and punched the enemy carrier in it's main gun.

[Ford Prefect]

The Macross Quarter can holster its flight deck. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say complaining about the Daedelus Attack might just be a little silly in context.

[Vendetta]

Macross F has a really goofy scene that comes to mind. The only fleet action between two human fleets shown in any series of that universe.

5km-long Spacecraft Carrier turns into giant humanoid 'battle configuration', and punches the enemy carrier of a similar class through the chest.

Sometimes just shooting the enemy just isn't personal enough, and realising this UN Spacy maintains that it's fleet flagships must be able to punch the fuck out of things.

And yet Macross F still made the tactics going on over on the other channel* in Code Geass look silly.


(* Though I think they were both on the same channel)

[Boombaye]

Star Wars: The Old Republic trailers exemplify this. Also, the trailers for classes, none of the soldiers take cover and such. Granted, it's an MMO, but still.

Especially the dumbass in this video without the helmet. Dumbass, but badass. Not many people get the nickname of 'Sithpuncher'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0RuR3FR ... re=related

In which Sithpuncher

1. Abandons a wonderful ambush position on a rocky cliff, fires 3 shots into a crowd of opposition, then jumps into the fray and the rest of his dumbasses follow, all the while doing dramatic rolls and running toward gunfire.

2. Takes his heavy weapon buddy into an open clearing and start mowing down enemies from there, which probably got his buddy killed while drawing attention to himself.

3. After firing 3 shots at a Sith, the last of which obviously did something, he throws away a heavy weapon and charges.

4. Falls about a meter and a half short of actually hitting the Sith, he gets electrocuted. While being fried, he whips out a knife. Which is awesome. Guy tries to stab a pissed of Sith. How did they fit his balls on that tiny planet?

Gets flung backwards, incapped. Carried to another Sith who's about to execute him and then the hot Jedi chick bails him out.

5. When that cute Jedi is in a pinch, he promptly charges at the same Sith again. This time, it works, gets him to a standstill and detonates a grenade in his hand, sending both flying. The grenade did a helluva number to both their armour.

At which point, the Jedi chick hadoukens the Sith and I get a reason to buy this game.

[Peptuck]

Also, one would think that they could just kill sarah in infancy or something.

If they knew where Sarah Connor was when she was in infancy, maybe. The problem is they don't. One of the Terminators had to look her up in the phone book to find her. Nuking the whole planet tends to disrupt information networks.

Finally, wouldn't the emp from the nukes do huge damage to skynet?

No. EMP is overrated; any electronic equipment covered in an electrically-conductive shell is relatively safe, and I seriously doubt the military that designed Skynet isn't going to cover its core processors in a Faraday cage. Once it spread outward into the internet, it might have taken more damage, but since most servers are protected by conducive shells to protect against EMP.

[Rossum]

Also, one would think that they could just kill Sarah in infancy or something.

As long as nobody tries killing the creator of time travel, they can be forgiven.

[NecronLord]

Stargate Atlantis (Wraith): bombard underwater city until ???? and then assume it is destroyed, ignore for 10 thousand years.

Janus locked the stargate down so that it would not connect (and thus read as destroyed) when the wraith tried to dial in, and it could only be accessed from Earth. I would think it reasonable to assume the Wraith were given reason to assume it was destroyed from orbit too.

Even if they didn't, they couldn't actually get into Atlantis anyway. The stargate was locked and the city shield raised. How would you get in? Even if you get in, why are you assuming that the Ancients haven't set the city to explode the moment you somehow get in, bearing in mind you only know what the Wraith know.

War of The Worlds, Every Version: Spacesuits are unnecessary, we'll just breath what they have there...

The aliens can breath Earth's air. What the hell are the chances of a disease effectively jumping between species to a being from another world?

[ShadowOfMadness]

....

War of The Worlds, Every Version: Spacesuits are unnecessary, we'll just breath what they have there...

The aliens can breath Earth's air. What the hell are the chances of a disease effectively jumping between species to a being from another world?

Between carbon based life (since they can breathe our air, etc...)...low but not impossible.

[Rossum]

....

War of The Worlds, Every Version: Spacesuits are unnecessary, we'll just breath what they have there...

The aliens can breath Earth's air. What the hell are the chances of a disease effectively jumping between species to a being from another world?

Between carbon based life (since they can breathe our air, etc...)...low but not impossible.

It could also be that they were using filters during the initial part of the invasion. I think in the origional story the invasion had lasted quite a while, maybe months. By the time the martians came down with a disease then their gas masks or filtration devices may have broken.

Though in the origional story I think the martians actually drank blood or something... so they might have gotten it from a blood based pathogen in which case they are pretty damn stupid for having such a disease-prone diet.

[Simon_Jester]

In the case of War of the Worlds, I'm tempted to give them a pass because the state of science when the original was written didn't tell the author his ending was unrealistic. At the time, several of the core premises of the story seemed a lot more logical:

-That life was "evolving toward" some kind of extremely brainy, machine-dependent end state (as the Martians were).
-That this same evolutionary process would gradually lead to "animalistic" traits in intelligent life forms (like strong immune systems, big muscles, and the ability to digest difficult food) going into decline.
-That there was no reason to expect life on other planets to be incompatible with our own, because the basis of biochemistry was so poorly understood. That explains both their ability to eat terrestrial food and their ability to catch terrestrial diseases.
-That there was (or could be) life on Mars, but that the planet Mars was near the end of its habitable life, thus explaining the Martians' colonial impulse.

[Temujin]

The Martians were said to have eliminated disease. They also didn't just breath the air, they drank the blood of humans (and probably other creatures) as well as consuming who knows what else. They may have been a bit arrogant and overconfident, but conceivably they assumed that their technology was up to the task of protecting themselves.

[Samuel]

In the case of War of the Worlds, I'm tempted to give them a pass because the state of science when the original was written didn't tell the author his ending was unrealistic. At the time, several of the core premises of the story seemed a lot more logical:

-That life was "evolving toward" some kind of extremely brainy, machine-dependent end state (as the Martians were).
-That this same evolutionary process would gradually lead to "animalistic" traits in intelligent life forms (like strong immune systems, big muscles, and the ability to digest difficult food) going into decline.
-That there was no reason to expect life on other planets to be incompatible with our own, because the basis of biochemistry was so poorly understood. That explains both their ability to eat terrestrial food and their ability to catch terrestrial diseases.
-That there was (or could be) life on Mars, but that the planet Mars was near the end of its habitable life, thus explaining the Martians' colonial impulse.

Did they eat terrestrial foods? All I remember was they used blood because they could take advantage of the nutrients in our blood stream. It is possible this was only a temporary expediant due to poor logistics on the part of the Martians.