Which science fiction universe has the worst tactics?

[Simon_Jester]

Did they eat terrestrial foods? All I remember was they used blood because they could take advantage of the nutrients in our blood stream. It is possible this was only a temporary expediant due to poor logistics on the part of the Martians.

A distinct point, though for them all to die of terrestrial disease, they must have been fairly compatible, and as a general rule organisms can eat from other species that they can't catch diseases from: I can digest a potato, but I can't catch potato mosaic virus.

[Temujin]

Relevant text from the book:

In another moment I had scrambled up the earthen rampart and stood upon its crest, and the interior of the redoubt was below me. A mighty space it was, with gigantic machines here and there within it, huge mounds of material and strange shelter places. And scattered about it, some in their overturned war-machines, some in the now rigid handling-machines, and a dozen of them stark and silent and laid in a row, were the Martians--dead!--slain by the putrefactive and disease bacteria against which their systems were unprepared; slain as the red weed was being slain; slain, after all man's devices had failed, by the humblest things that God, in his wisdom, has put upon this earth.

For so it had come about, as indeed I and many men might have foreseen had not terror and disaster blinded our minds. These germs of disease have taken toll of humanity since the beginning of things--taken toll of our prehuman ancestors since life began here. But by virtue of this natural selection of our kind we have developed resisting power; to no germs do we succumb without a struggle, and to many--those that cause putrefaction in dead matter, for instance--our living frames are altogether immune. But there are no bacteria in Mars, and directly these invaders arrived, directly they drank and fed, our microscopic allies began to work their overthrow. Already when I watched them they were irrevocably doomed, dying and rotting even as they went to and fro. It was inevitable. By the toll of a billion deaths man has bought his birthright of the earth, and it is his against all comers; it would still be his were the Martians ten times as mighty as they are. For neither do men live nor die in vain.

[Big Orange]

While not space opera and cyberpunk per se, how about World War Z with the Battle of Yonkers its jewel in the crown of idocy?

[Night_stalker]

Let's list off the mistakes that they did, for those who haven't read the novel yet:

1. Using Shock and Awe tactics on Zekes.

2. Having barely enough shells for 1 massive barrage and a few measly followup barrages.

3. Having very little anti-personnel rounds for the tanks.

4. Having all the soliders present wear useless MOPP gear and CrossCom equipment.

5. Relying on training that involves shooting at the center of mass, IE the chest, NOT the head.

6. Having concealed firing positions.

[Samuel]

You forgot:

-not checking their positions before fortifying so that zombies inside houses were mixed with their lines.
-having communications that could be jammed by a single soldier hitting the panic buttom
-not using fixed defenses. You know, like barbed wire, concrete, pit traps, etc
-not bombing from air the mass concentration of zombies
-not using bulldozers to simply sweep aside enemies marching down the street
-not using firehoses to drive back the zombies. Seriously, knock them off their feet, let the next wave crush them beneath their feet and repeat until you get tired.

When you are fighting a slow moving enemy that fights with melee attacks, you can win simply by lugging concrete blocks to the top of buildings and crushing advancing troops with it. Or using swiss pikemen to push them back. Your enemies need to be close enough to bite so any melee weapon that pushes them more than a foot makes you invulnerable as long as you have enough men to cover your flanks. And since zombies don't cordinate that won't generally be a problem.

[Big Orange]

In one part of the book astronauts trapped inside a space station could observe hordes of undead so vast (like numbering in the hundreds of thousands to millions) they could be seen as blotches across the plains of Eurasia and North America: why didn't the PLA, Russian forces, and US Military routinely deploy tactical nukes or MOABs on such large gatherings?

[Night_stalker]

They had no idea what nuclear radiation could do to the Zekes.

[Big Orange]

OK, not nukes, too risky, but certainly routine use of the "clean" MOABs would've been effective enough with walking corpses that would shatter like glass from the heat and shockwave (even if it doesn't destroy their reanimated brains).

[open_sketchbook]

Presumably, they didn't need the nukes or really big bombs because they thought they didn't need them at first and they knew they didn't need to once they restructured to crush the grey horde. I guess they calculated a thousand guys with carbines got more bang for their buck than a big bomb in an expensive plane.

[Drone]

Armored vehicles didn't really seem be used either, which makes no sense. The LAV-25 for example, fires 200 rounds a minute from a 25 mm cannon, with HE rounds that essentially shred anything within 5 meters of impact that isn't armored. The Corps has 4 full battalions of these vehicles, and has since the 80's. Then plus there's the MRAP, the Stryker, the Bradley, which gets mentioned but not used. That's the one major issue that always comes to mind first, these things can be locked and made inacessable to anyone who doesn't have breaching charges, why aren't they ever used in these scenarios?

[Atlan]

Armored vehicles didn't really seem be used either, which makes no sense. The LAV-25 for example, fires 200 rounds a minute from a 25 mm cannon, with HE rounds that essentially shred anything within 5 meters of impact that isn't armored. The Corps has 4 full battalions of these vehicles, and has since the 80's. Then plus there's the MRAP, the Stryker, the Bradley, which gets mentioned but not used. That's the one major issue that always comes to mind first, these things can be locked and made inacessable to anyone who doesn't have breaching charges, why aren't they ever used in these scenarios?

Yeah. Even if you run out of ammo, you can still, you know, run the zombies over. It isn't like that isn't a time-honored tactic of tank drivers... Heck, attach one of those mine-ploughs to the front, keep it raised, and tell the driver to go to town!

[Commander 598]

Heck, attach one of those mine-ploughs to the front, keep it raised, and tell the driver to go to town!

Even Better:

[Uncluttered]

Disclaimer: I'm not a WWZ fanboy. I was a technical adviser for it, and the survival guide.

It's all about the Billions.

Even if you could line up all the Zombies in front of every one of these vehicles, it would take years to kill them.

Meanwhile; zombies don't line up nicely, and they hurt your logistics which you need to run the vehicles.
They disrupt your supply of fuel by eating the gas station attendant, they eat the truck drivers, they eat your motor pool. They disrupt your communications by inducing panic, and eating your radio operator. They ate the battery manufacture, so the radio is dead anyway. There are billions of them, they don't stop, until you are dead, or you put them down.

Yes, your tanks can run over them in the street, but remember what happens to streets in abandoned cities, they collapse, they flood. Tanks in basements and sewars are now very expensive bunkers.
Take a look at "Life After People", and imagine all those CGI images with zombies.

The book is about a Zombie appocolypse, so the army had to be given a scenario where it's ass was handed to it in dripping chunks. Max wanted to show the old adage that armies always fight the last war. I was a developer in the "Future force warrior" system, and there are several directions it could take. The answer was to have a future army that was made to be more peacekeepers than ass kickers. They were overspecialized for urban peacekeeping in both equipment and training.

WWZ zombies don't have regular blood, they have a sort of coagulated antibacterial gel in their guts that makes them rot slower and makes their anatomy more immune to shock waves. Explosives killed them en mass, but not as much as it would have killed humans.

[Uncluttered]

While not space opera and cyberpunk per se, how about World War Z with the Battle of Yonkers its jewel in the crown of idocy?

I don't think this counts. The battle was supposed to be lost by the humans partly because of idiocy on the part of the humans.

If you can't believe human idiocy is realistic, please take me back to your planet oh brave explorer.

[wautd]

Have the Second Renaissance humans in de Animatrix been mentioned yet? You know, a whole planet worth of manpower and industry that still managed to loose against a single city and eventually pretty much killed the planet by blocking out the sky?

[adam_grif]

Have the Second Renaissance humans in de Animatrix been mentioned yet? You know, a whole planet worth of manpower and industry that still managed to loose against a single city and eventually pretty much killed the planet by blocking out the sky?

The dumbest part of that was when they nuke the city and they said the machines survived because "radiation doesn't harm them" or something stupid like that. Sure, but nuclear fireballs, shock-waves and massive firestorms do!

But bashing on things in The Matrix for being stupid is a waste of time given how prevalent it is.

[Vendetta]

Even if you could line up all the Zombies in front of every one of these vehicles, it would take years to kill them.

That's why you start out by using artillery. Both standard long gun and rocket artillery, saturating the areas where zombies are known to concentrate and then mopping up the survivors with AFVs. If the concentrations are too great for artillery, you use nuclear weapons, carpet bombing from B52's or MOABs.

Meanwhile; zombies don't line up nicely, and they hurt your logistics which you need to run the vehicles.

No, they do better, they concentrate in vast hordes ready to catch high explosive shells.

They disrupt your supply of fuel by eating the gas station attendant, they eat the truck drivers, they eat your motor pool. They disrupt your communications by inducing panic, and eating your radio operator. They ate the battery manufacture, so the radio is dead anyway. There are billions of them, they don't stop, until you are dead, or you put them down.

However, the military will already be used to protecting those assets because a sensible conventional opponent will also attempt to disrupt them. Remember, you're talking about a military supply line, not gas stations and civilian truck drivers.

Yes, your tanks can run over them in the street, but remember what happens to streets in abandoned cities, they collapse, they flood. Tanks in basements and sewars are now very expensive bunkers.
Take a look at "Life After People", and imagine all those CGI images with zombies.

Not in the short time that a zombie apocalypse is going to take to put down they don't. It will take, at most, a few months to reduce to the level of isolated outbreaks which can be easily controlled by sensible public awareness. (especially Solanum, which can only use human hosts)

The book is about a Zombie appocolypse, so the army had to be given a scenario where it's ass was handed to it in dripping chunks.

And that's really why the Zombie Apocalypse itself isn't a very good story, because zombies really aren't all that much of a threat and you have to make the people they're fighting so stupid they would pass for the risen dead themselves on a cold day. Thnk of the breakout zombie fiction of the last couple of years, like Shaun of the Dead or Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, sure, there's a zombie apocalypse happening, but it's not really the point of the story as much as it is the backdrop to it.

[Big Orange]

I don't think this counts. The battle was supposed to be lost by the humans partly because of idiocy on the part of the humans.

If you can't believe human idiocy is realistic, please take me back to your planet oh brave explorer.

In a zombie apocalypes it would be arrogant to assume that the authorities, militaries, and populace would not make strategic mistakes, and they would initially be caught with their pants down due to the randomness of a zombie plague, but zombie apocalypeses only work if the zombies "cheat" - in Romeo's films anyone who dies and remains intact becomes a zombie, so they would be very hard to contain for long, while in the Dawn of the Dead remake and Charlie Brooker's Dead Set the undead are fast runners (so they could semi-plausibly overwhelm all/most of the major population centres before the central governments reacted and armed forces could deploy properly).

In the Battle of Yonkers things were very bad, a major financial and population area like Manhattan had been converted into Zombieville, but not bad enough if the US Military was not out of action and hadn't been cut off badly enough not to deploy divisions with proper air and artillery support - but then the soldiers and marines seemed to act very brainlessly, not stocking on AP ammo in advance and consolidating their positions properly in Yonkers (like putting guys on the roofs), seemingly losing common sense when mowing down the rows of walking corpses with their vast arsenal, and being fussy enough to tie themselves too much into that Land Warrior thing with disastrous results, but not fussy enough to place a Ma Duce in every window in Yonkers.

[Sinewmire]

Wasn't the whole point of Yonkers the massive incompetence of the decision makers? They'd gone all out with all the latest hardware even when it was pointless or counterproductive.

They'd loaded up their tanks with all sorts of pointless fancy armour-piercing ammo, the needless equipment. They even had a bridge builder and a toilet unit whilst all the plumbing was still working.

The whole point was to show the military might of the army against a fairly unprotected enemy to the press who were on-scene, but due to incompetence and underestimation of Zack's fortitude the opposite happened.

[Big Orange]

I can see some pen pushers being igonorant about how to deal with zombies, but Army soldiers and Marines in particular are pragmatic people who'll know what would work and what wouldn't - they'll likely improvise and arm themselves with shotguns from every police cruise, PD armoury, gunshop, and home in Yonkers. Rifle butts, crowbars, hammers, and iron bars would help as well. I can imagine firemen would help with their axes as well.

[Sinewmire]

Army soldiers and Marines in particular are pragmatic people who'll know what would work and what wouldn't - they'll likely improvise and arm themselves with shotguns from every police cruise, PD armoury, gunshop, and home in Yonkers. Rifle butts, crowbars, hammers, and iron bars would help as well.

Because the best idea before unleashing an armoured bombardment is to send your infantry into heavily occupied territory where they can be surrounded and picked off in an urban environment? Think about what you're saying.

I can imagine firemen would help with their axes as well.

Seriously? Can you really imagine a modern general putting Firemen on the gun line? Especially when they're trying to impress everyone with the power of the army? Can you imagine a non combat trained Fireman hanging around when all the soldiers are panicking, the big guns don't seem to be doing anything and there's well over a million Zombies incoming? Firemen are notoriously brave, but they're not stupid.

What makes you think these men have fought Zombies before? Whilst you or I have a fair idea about Zombies from movies, these guys clearly didn't. All they knew was they were supposed to be going for headshots, and panicking soldiers began spreading word that headshots didn't work. The foot soldiers clearly had little idea about what they were facing - the annotations on what would and wouldn't have worked were added afterwards, remember. The source is a reminiscence. Also, it's a subjective report. The soldier in question disagrees with official reports and historical accounts. He could simply have been wrong, although I agree overuse of the Unreliable Narrator smacks of bad debating.

And it's not like the army ever makes bad equipping decisions, right? My country famously equipped it's soldiers with boots that melted in the combat zone, and had the SAS pinned down by enemies because their weapons kept jamming in the climate.

[Samuel]

Because the best idea before unleashing an armoured bombardment is to send your infantry into heavily occupied territory where they can be surrounded and picked off in an urban environment? Think about what you're saying.

Picked off? If you have more than 9 guys in a group (or stair and the willingness to destroy them) you can't be "picked off".

Seriously? Can you really imagine a modern general putting Firemen on the gun line? Especially when they're trying to impress everyone with the power of the army? Can you imagine a non combat trained Fireman hanging around when all the soldiers are panicking, the big guns don't seem to be doing anything and there's well over a million Zombies incoming? Firemen are notoriously brave, but they're not stupid.

Nah, just have them use firehouses.

All they knew was they were supposed to be going for headshots, and panicking soldiers began spreading word that headshots didn't work.

Which is a whole nother world of stupid. Who let those idiots on the coms? How were people to dumb to recognize they could miss let into the army?

Also, you don't need headshots. Just keep shooting until the muscles are pulped and the zombie is no longer a problem.

And it's not like the army ever makes bad equipping decisions, right? My country famously equipped it's soldiers with boots that melted in the combat zone, and had the SAS pinned down by enemies because their weapons kept jamming in the climate.

Yes, but no modern military has ever been defeat by a foe outnumbered Greek hoplites could take down.

[jollyreaper]

While not space opera and cyberpunk per se, how about World War Z with the Battle of Yonkers its jewel in the crown of idocy?

I don't think this counts. The battle was supposed to be lost by the humans partly because of idiocy on the part of the humans.

If you can't believe human idiocy is realistic, please take me back to your planet oh brave explorer.

You can't blame the author when he's deliberately setting out to show people making a mistake. You can only blame him when he himself does not recognize that his plan for victory couldn't work.

Case in point, the Praxis trilogy has a civil war within a giant galactic empire. To date there had never been a real war since most of the species gobbled up into the empire were barely in space by the time the warships came. Blow up a few primitive habs, drop some fusion bombs, accept surrender. The space navy existed as 1) internal police force and 2) insurance against any other advanced power not yet encountered. Lacking a real enemy, they developed the best weapons and tactics they could imagine and drilled against themselves. But given that tradition and doctrine are so important, innovation was impossible and the tactics remained lethal to all involved. Only the coming of a civil war created the disruption that could allow for the development of new tactics. The author was aware of the stupidity of the original system and it was a major plot point in the books. Therefore you can't hold it against him!

A good one for critique was mentioned above, that idiotic Star Wars 40K trailer. Completely stupid yet presented as good tactics by the game developers.

[jollyreaper]

In a zombie apocalypes it would be arrogant to assume that the authorities, militaries, and populace would not make strategic mistakes, and they would initially be caught with their pants down due to the randomness of a zombie plague, but zombie apocalypeses only work if the zombies "cheat" - in Romeo's films anyone who dies and remains intact becomes a zombie, so they would be very hard to contain for long, while in the Dawn of the Dead remake and Charlie Brooker's Dead Set the undead are fast runners (so they could semi-plausibly overwhelm all/most of the major population centres before the central governments reacted and armed forces could deploy properly).

The walking dead are a cheat to begin with. It all depends on the rules of the zombies in the setting. In something like 28 Days Later, the infection burns itself out because the zombies are still alive and will eventually starve. Quarantine tactics should work. So you could have a human society constantly wary of new outbreaks while maintaining a strained level of civilization.

Complete zombie apocalypse has been done so much that I'd like to see some stories with less effective zombies, ones you can survive. But that doesn't take anything away form someone who does a full-on apocalypse properly.

Brooks did a great job of showing an apocalypse that almost ended mankind. I like the thinking he put into fighting the zombies. I like the thought put into the logistics, the bang for the buck.

To the people above talking about dropping bombs on the zombies, Brooks pointed out that a dismembered zombie can still crawl and bite. It's now a zombie landmine. You have to get the headshot to be sure. And since emptying a clip into the center of mass does nothing, you may as well go back to single fire rifles that will crack that head and make sure it goes down.

The only thing I would question from his setting is the predominant use of the infantry square. What would seem to also make sense is putting a fighting platform on the top of a tall truck. Zombies can't climb very well and your shooters can remain up there picking them off while maintaining mobility.

I love the idea of using the flail tank against zombies but in the Brooks setting it was pointed out that petroleum was in limited supply. While there were hummers for the brass, trucks for moving supplies, and air farce cargo jets for resupplying across hostile territory, the soldiers were walking. Fighting vehicles were only brought out for use against human resistance.

In a non-Brooks setting where oil is in greater supply, I could easily see Wells-Fargo and Brinks armored cars converted into fighting vehicles. Widen the weapon slits, maybe jerry-rig a turret and you've got yourself a zombie-proof vehicle. We've seen this kind of thing attempted in a more ad-hoc basis in zombie films such as the Dead Reckoning vehicle from Land of the Dead, the bus from the Dawn of the Dead remake, but Brooks is the only author who has really done a systematic defense against the dead kind of story. The trope usually goes along the line of struggling band of survivors against the zombie horde.

[Big Orange]

I wouldn't say the firemen (or other deputised civilians) would be on the frontline, but they would certainly be on the flanks and in the rear of military forces to bash zombies in the head if they emerged in small groups from alleyways and buildings.

The problems with MoD equipment in Afghanistan and Iraq was the result of Tony Blair wrongly thinking Britain was a mini-America that could punch above its weight, with things like ski gear sent to a desert base being a administrative glitch, not the strategic and tactical planners setting themselves out to be as stoopid as possible from the ground up in fighting the enemy who, unlike zombies, could shoot back and set up bombs.

And in Yonkers the way they allowed the press to mass up was pretty retarded, letting their news vans get in the way of retreating tanks, and worse still have their news copters getting in the way of the military helicopters and planes (with explosive results). When reasonable quality cameras got portable in the 1960s the journalists using them got to be a pain and could aimlessly wander off into the Vietnam warzones, so since then reporters are much more supervised by the US Military (plus soldiers have cameras themselves that could've recorded the Battle of Yonkers for posterity without annoying crowds of reporters).

Though I don't hate WWZ per se, I fonnd it enjoyed it as pulp action-horror (I loved the segment with the PLA Navy nuclear submarine), but it required a lot of suspension of disbelief to take too seriously.