Deportations higher under Obama than under Bush

[Magis]

Your remaining is conditional on your employer.

The permit is valid for only 30 days after the termination of employment, yes.

You can be shipped off for any reason. For example, if you speak up about not making the salary promised or even the minimum demanded by the H1-B laws. Heck, because of non-compatible databases, the Department Of Labor couldn't do anything for a H-1B person.

I think there might have been a bit of miscommunication here. I wasn't referring to an H-1B visa, I was referring to a TN-status attainable under NAFTA (the TN itself is not a visa, and an individual with a TN requires no visa of any kind).

[Kanastrous]

How long will this nonsensical violation of individual liberties be permitted to continue?

Until you demonstrate that there is a legally protected liberty to enter and reside in the country without process and documentation, I don't think you even have a rhetorical question, there. Although it's sure a nonsensical one.

There is a liberty, my autocratic friend, to move freely regardless of State intervention.

You need to crack a dictionary and look up the word autocrat. I am not seeking the personal unlimited authority to deal with immigration, nor am I advocating that any other individual maximum leader be handed that authority, either. Some people actually know the meanings of the words you're using, you know.

In a Rousseau-ian view, sure, no borders, no property, no territory, go where you like. The laws of the world we presently inhabit aren't constituted that way, and since for practical purposes your liberties are what are available to you under the prevailing law the no-nations bit is charming but not particularly relevant. International conventions regarding the movement of persons recognize the authority of states to regulate their borders.

[SirNitram]

Your remaining is conditional on your employer.

The permit is valid for only 30 days after the termination of employment, yes.

You can be shipped off for any reason. For example, if you speak up about not making the salary promised or even the minimum demanded by the H1-B laws. Heck, because of non-compatible databases, the Department Of Labor couldn't do anything for a H-1B person.

I think there might have been a bit of miscommunication here. I wasn't referring to an H-1B visa, I was referring to a TN-status attainable under NAFTA (the TN itself is not a visa, and an individual with a TN requires no visa of any kind).

Well, I'm more versed in H1-Bs, but the TN status is revokable by the INS and border checkpoints.. For, well, if they feel like it. You're still here on the whim of your employer, which means most of the abuses for H1-B is still quite possible.

[Phantasee]

What provisions are there for bringing families along under a TN permit?

[eion]

What provisions are there for bringing families along under a TN permit?

Bringing Family Members
Your spouse and unmarried children under the age of 21 are entitled to accompany you in derivative "TD" status, but they are unable to accept employment in the United States (although they are permitted to study). They do not have to be citizens of Mexico or Canada. Derivative status means that their visas will be dependent on your nonimmigrant status. If you change your status, your family must change their status. If you lose your status, your family will also lose their status.

Canadian citizen spouses and children do not need visas, but they must have the following documents at the port of entry:

•Proof of Canadian citizenship;
•Proof of relationship to you, such as marriage certificate and birth certificate; and
•Photocopies of your entry documents.
Mexican citizen spouses and children must apply for TD nonimmigrant visas at a US embassy or US consulate.

If your spouse and children are not Canadian citizens, they must get a TD nonimmigrant visa from a U.S. embassy or consulate. They must contact the U.S. embassy or consulate that serves their area for information on how to make visa applications. If you are a Canadian residing in another country with a non-Canadian spouse and children, you will need a TN Visa for yourself to enable your spouse and children to apply for a TD visa to accompany or join you. To apply for a TN Visa for yourself, follow the Application Requirements for Citizens of Mexico (above).

Spouses or children following to join must show your valid I-94 Form (Arrival-Departure Record, Form I-94 Card), which provides proof that you are maintaining your TN visa status.

But unless the job you are applying for is on this list, sorry, get out filthy immigrant!

[Magis]

But unless the job you are applying for is on this list, sorry, get out filthy immigrant!

That's actually a pretty broad list of eligible professions that I would imagine covers an enormous part of any educated population. Many of those categories do not even require university degrees - if someone really wanted a TN, they can spend a few years to get a qualification from a community college. I don't think that's an especially arduous task. It sure beats risking one's life crossing the desert, becoming a criminal, living in fear every day of deportation or imprisonment, etc. Of course, even if someone doesn't qualify under NAFTA there are other visa options. According to Wiki, there's been an average of about 400,000 admissions of legal immigrants per year for the last ten years (which doesn't include temporary workers under a TN, for example). Wiki link.

[eion]

Almost all those jobs require a university degree. When you see Baccalaureate, think Bacholor's Degree. When you see Licenciatura, think Master's Degree. Why would we import a geneticist from Mexico who doesn't even have the same level of education as a geneticist from the U.S.?

So no, you can't really just spend 2 years at Mexico City Community College and get your dream job in the U.S.

And leaving aside the fact that even a dyed-in-the-wool wiki supporter like me knows you don't use wikis as sources, would that 400,000 figure include all tourist and non-working visas?

[Kanastrous]

I find myself wondering - since when I worked in Mexico I had to be ID'd, photographed, fingerprinted, spend hours in a mildly filthy government office waiting room, was obliged to sign smudgily-copied stacks of forms in a language that I'm pretty slow at reading (and therefore had to sign mostly un-read), was rudely shuffled about by surly unpleasant government employees issuing instructions in said language in which I'm only partially fluent, was lectured on the importance of my departing the country by the day my work visa was up...

...should I feel like a victimized filthy immigrant? Since, you know, I was expected to comply with the laws of the land (gasp!) and follow their rules (outrageous!) and obey their instructions (incredible!) Filthy, filthy, bad, nasty immigrant!

I never felt victimized by any of that but since I hate to pass up a good chance at bitching that I'm a victim...I guess I'm entitled, right?

Of course at the time I saw it as an opportunity. But I suppose that I'm alone in seeing the chance to earn in a foreign market, that way.

[Magis]

So no, you can't really just spend 2 years at Mexico City Community College and get your dream job in the U.S.

I didn't say two, I said "a few".

Computer Systems Analyst - Baccalaureate or Licenciatura Degree; or Post- Secondary Diploma(3) or Post-Secondary Certificate(4), and three years experience

Graphic Designer - Baccalaureate or Licenciatura Degree; or Post-Secondary Diploma or Post-Secondary Certificate, and three years experience

Hotel Manager - Baccalaureate or Licenciatura Degree in hotel/restaurant management; or Post-Secondary Diploma or Post-Secondary Certificate in hotel/restaurant management, and three years experience in hotel/restaurant management

Industrial Designer - Baccalaureate or Licenciatura Degree; or Post-Secondary Diploma or Post-Secondary Certificate, and three years experience

Interior Designer - Baccalaureate or Licenciatura Degree; or Post-Secondary Diploma or Post-Secondary Certificate, and three years experience

Scientific Technician/Technologist(5) - Possession of
1. theoretical knowledge of any of the following disciplines: agricultural sciences, astronomy, biology, chemistry, engineering, forestry, geology, geophysics, meteorology or physics; and
2. the ability to solve practical problems in any of those disciplines, or the ability to apply principles of any of those disciplines to basic or applied research

Technical Publications Writer - Baccalaureate or Licenciatura Degree; or Post- Secondary Diploma or Post-Secondary Certificate, and three years experience

Medical Laboratory Technologist (Canada)/Medical Technologist (Mexico)(6) - Baccalaureate or Licenciatura Degree; or Post-Secondary Diploma or Post-Secondary Certificate, and three years experience

Those are all eligible job categories that do not require university degrees.

[General Zod]

Those are all eligible job categories that do not require university degrees.

They still require at least three years of experience in the given field. . .which most assume to mean after you've spent some time in college. So it's not like the amount of time is drastically different; if anything it's probably longer.

[Magis]

And leaving aside the fact that even a dyed-in-the-wool wiki supporter like me knows you don't use wikis as sources, would that 400,000 figure include all tourist and non-working visas?

I'm generally not comfortable using Wiki as a source, either, but I occasionally do if the article seems thoroughly referenced and I don't have time to review those original sources. The paragraph from the Wiki article states:

Since 2000, legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 per year, of whom about 600,000 are Change of Status immigrants who already are in the U.S.

I deducted the 600,000 change of status immigrants from the 1,000,000 number of new legal immigrants to arrive at my figure of 400,000 immigrants whose applications are accepted from another country.

I found the following on Google books (and retyped manually)

There are no limits on the number of green cards that can be issued to immediate relatives of U.S. citizens. For those who qualify in another category, there are annual quotas. Both family and employment preference-based green cards are affected by quotas.

Green cards allocated annually to employment-based categories, including investors and Special Immigrants, number 140,000 worldwide. Approximately 480,000 green cards worldwide can be issued each year in the family categories.

Only 7% of all worldwide preference visas can be given to persons born in any one country.
...
In addition to fixed worldwide totals, 50,000 extra green cards are given each year through the ethnic diversity or lottery category. Qualifying countries and the number of green cards that are available to each are determined each year according to a formula.

Link to Google Books

[eion]

Those are all eligible job categories that do not require university degrees.

You do realize that "Post-Secondary Diploma" means anything past High School, which would include everything from a 2-year associate's degree through bachelors’ and post-graduate degrees? It even says so right in the damn footnotes.

3 "Post-Secondary Diploma" means a credential issued, on completion of two or more years of postsecondary education, by an accredited academic institution in Canada or the United States.

4 "Post-Secondary Certificate" means a certificate issued, on completion of two or more years of postsecondary education at an academic institution, by the federal government of Mexico or a state government in Mexico, an academic institution recognized by the federal government or a state government, or an academic institution created by federal or state law

Add to that the aforementioned experience requirement which means you've already gotten a job in that field in your home country, so now we're looking at 5 years of schooling and employment before you're allowed to come here and work temporarily.

But again, my point that there are no jobs for hardworking people who can't afford college on that list still stands despite your ignorance of definitions and attempts at obfuscation. Which highlights even more the need for a functional guest worker program in this country.

If it were possible for Juan Ortega to come here as a guest worker, pick broccoli and oranges for the summer in California, and then return to Mexico, and be sure that if he was a hard-worker, and remained a law-abiding visitor to the United States he would be permitted to return again next year, and perhaps eventually earn permanent resident status for himself and his family, the demand for illegal immigration would drop, and the mistreatment of undocumented workers would plummet as well. And we'd still have some of the cheapest food in the world.

[Magis]

You do realize that "Post-Secondary Diploma" means anything past High School, which would include everything from a 2-year associate's degree through bachelors’ and post-graduate degrees? It even says so right in the damn footnotes.

Obviously. That's why I said that a university degree is not required for those job categories. Any post-secondary diploma is sufficient.

Add to that the aforementioned experience requirement which means you've already gotten a job in that field in your home country, so now we're looking at 5 years of schooling and employment before you're allowed to come here and work temporarily.

Do you think that's too arduous a requirement?

But again, my point that there are no jobs for hardworking people who can't afford college on that list

So your point was that the list doesn't cover everyone? Maybe you should have read my point, which was that it does cover a large portion of an educated population.

still stands despite your ignorance of definitions and attempts at obfuscation.

Nothing I've written in my posts is in error. You said that most of the entries on the list required a university degree. I did not dispute that, and merely pointed out that there are also many entries on the list that do not require a university degree. Care to point out something I said that is actually false? I'll wait.

If it were possible for Juan Ortega to come here as a guest worker, pick broccoli and oranges for the summer in California, and then return to Mexico

You mean like an H-2A visa? In 2006 and 2007, a total of 87,940 visas of this kind were issued for seasonal agricultural work, according to a DHS website. (Link)

[General Zod]

Nothing I've written in my posts is in error. You said that most of the entries on the list required a university degree. I did not dispute that, and merely pointed out that there are also many entries on the list that do not require a university degree. Care to point out something I said that is actually false? I'll wait.

if someone really wanted a TN, they can spend a few years to get a qualification from a community college.

Unless you're using some nebulous definition of "a few" to mean "more than three years" this is clearly false (or at the very least misleading) since they require a number of years practical experience on top of the education. Not just the education itself.

[eion]

Obviously. That's why I said that a university degree is not required for those job categories. Any post-secondary diploma is sufficient.

Are you really drawing a meaningful semantic distinction between the words "university" and "college"?

Add to that the aforementioned experience requirement which means you've already gotten a job in that field in your home country, so now we're looking at 5 years of schooling and employment before you're allowed to come here and work temporarily.

Do you think that's too arduous a requirement?

No, I don't actually. But your point, and let's quote you for accuracy is, “Many of those categories do not even require university degrees - if someone really wanted a TN, they can spend a few years to get a qualification from a community college,” Which makes it sound like it is QUICKER to get a TN by not getting a Bachelor’s or Master’s degree, when in fact it will take 5 to 6 years by going the School+Work-Experience route as opposed to the 4 to 5 years for just-school route.

But again, my point that there are no jobs for hardworking people who can't afford college on that list

So your point was that the list doesn't cover everyone? Maybe you should have read my point, which was that it does cover a large portion of an educated population.

And you think the only hard-working, worthwhile people we should be offering employment visas are those that have obtained higher degrees?

still stands despite your ignorance of definitions and attempts at obfuscation.

Nothing I've written in my posts is in error. You said that most of the entries on the list required a university degree. I did not dispute that, and merely pointed out that there are also many entries on the list that do not require a university degree. Care to point out something I said that is actually false? I'll wait.

You were in error in saying that ALL it took was a post-secondary certification obtained from a community college. In fact it requires that degree and 3 years of work experience.
There, that didn’t take long.

You are also obfuscating by drawing some meaningful distinction between a post-secondary institution and a university.

If it were possible for Juan Ortega to come here as a guest worker, pick broccoli and oranges for the summer in California, and then return to Mexico

You mean like an H-2A visa? In 2006 and 2007, a total of 87,940 visas of this kind were issued for seasonal agricultural work, according to a DHS website. (Link)

Obviously 87,940 visas issued in 2006 and 2007 (I’m guessing that is combined over 2 years, but it is unclear, more obfuscation on your part) isn’t enough to cover the demand of seasonal agricultural work since undocumented workers account for about 60% of agricultural workers, so No, I wouldn’t consider the H-2A a functioning guest worker program.

Mainly this is because it is cheaper for an employer to hire undocumented workers (the costs of hiring an H-2A worker are between $350 and $500, plus you have to house them, feed them, actually pay them, etc.) despite the fact that the H-2A program is unlimited. So the fault is not solely with the government in this case, but the fault is theirs for not implementing a secure worker ID and in not making hiring documented workers more profitable by imposing enormous fines and jail time to those that hire undocumented workers en masse.

[Zed]

Obviously. That's why I said that a university degree is not required for those job categories. Any post-secondary diploma is sufficient.

Are you really drawing a meaningful semantic distinction between the words "university" and "college"?

I'm not sure where Magis is from, but in Europe, there are significant differences in tertiary education. In Belgium, for instance, secondary education is followed either by 'high school' (a literal translation, which is unfortunate due to confusion with the American secondary high schools) and universities. High schools are generally vocational, for nurses, teachers, etc. Universities provided more advanced, academic training. University degrees are definitely perceived as superior to the degrees of 'high schools', even though both of them are tertiary degrees. As I understand it, these distinctions aren't so important in America. I'm unaware of their importance in Canada or Mexico.

[Aaron]

In Canada I believe College is more of a trade oriented school (Nurses and such) where as University is for things like Doctors, Archaeologists etc.

[lance]

I think in the US college is either a community college or part of a university. Example being my friend who goes to something like Michigan college of optometry which is part of Ferris University

[Coyote]

Further confusing the issue is that many Americans colloquially refer to any post-high school education as "college" as a sort of blanket term.