Magic: The Gathering

[Norade]

Lands: 22
10 Plains
9 Swamps
1 Fetid Heath
2 Esper Panorama

Creatures: 21
1 Agent of Masks
1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
4 Nip Gwyllions
3 Nightsky Mimics
2 Dawnflukes
2 Flickerwisps
2 Mourning Thrulls
3 Voracious Hatchlings
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Deathbringer Liege
1 Stillmoon Cavalier

Spells and Artifacts: 29
4 Double Cleave
4 Tainted Sigils
4 Edge of the Divinity
4 Recumbent Bliss
4 Unmake
1 Traitors Clutch
1 Lightmine Field
2 Batwing Brume
1 Quietus Spike
1 Purify
1 Moonlight Bargain
2 Zealous Persecution

Total Cards: 72

The way this deck plays is that it wants to get double cleaving Nip Gwyllions equipped with Edge of the Divinity out soon, they along with the Thrulls and Mimics make up my early game hitting power and each gains +3/+3 from a one casting cost enchantment. Toss in double cleave giving each creature double strike and you can end games quickly on a good draw. The bloat is mainly due to it being both a single player and a half decent multiplayer deck and some cards are in there mainly for certain decks the guys I play against have.

Any advice on what to cut and how to improve this deck?

So far it hasn't met it's match in one on one games in my group of friends, but it just plain sucks in multi unless I get left alone long enough to get the last hit on somebody.

[Dark Hellion]

Just real quick. Too many cards, not enough land. I am just going to repeat it because it should become the mantra you live by, 60 cards, 24 of them are land. Your deck will pretty much always improve if you do this.

[Norade]

Just real quick. Too many cards, not enough land. I am just going to repeat it because it should become the mantra you live by, 60 cards, 24 of them are land. Your deck will pretty much always improve if you do this.

I know it has too many cards, it's a single player deck trying to play multi right now and I'm looking for ideas on which way to take it. Though just in doing the cuts below I'm leaning towards making it pure single player again.

To take it back to a purely single player deck I would cut Agent of Masks, Teysa, Deathbringer Leige, and Stillmoon Cavalier for creatures dropping me down to 17 creatures and I would then cut the Tainted Sigils, Traitors Clutch, Lightmine Field, Batwing Brume, Purify, Moonlight Bargain dropping ten more cards. After that I drop a Plains and boom back to 60 cards. If I had the cards on hand I would also change the Esper Panoramas to Fetid Heaths.

Lands: 21
9 Plains
9 Swamps
3 Fetid Heath

Creatures: 19
4 Nip Gwyllions
4 Nightsky Mimics
2 Dawnflukes
2 Flickerwisps
2 Mourning Thrulls
4 Voracious Hatchlings
1 Divinity of Pride

Spells and Artifacts: 20
4 Double Cleave
4 Edge of the Divinity
4 Recumbent Bliss
4 Unmake
2 Quietus Spike
2 Zealous Persecution

As we can see when focused for single player I'm going for an argo deck that uses Auras to get large creatures for a low casting cost. The deck's best draw is two Plains, a Swamp, a Nip Gwyllion, two Edge of the Divinities, and a Nightsky Mimic. The prefect draw is then a Double Cleave.

In this hand I play a Plains a Nip Gwyllion and then pass. Next turn I play a Swamp and a Nightsky Mimic, if my opponent has no blockers or only has a 1/1 blocker I attack. The next turn I play a Plains and, assuming I know I can play a Black and White spell next turn I attach both auras to my Mimic and swing for 10. You're dead next turn even if you have flying as I will play double cleave and hit you with a flying 10/10 double striker. Of course this assumes that you don't have a way to kill a 2/1 on turn 2 or a 10/10 on turn three.

Second, I actually do understand mana curve and understanding that I look at this deck and see that most of it's power comes from one and two casting cost cards which make up 15 of, when cut for single player, 60 cards and most of the other spells are three and four casting cost. This deck has done 3rd turn kills on two mana and can do it fairly reliably.

[Dark Hellion]

That thing cleaned up nicely. Yah, I can see how the single player version works. The thing about multi is that a lot of single player strategies just can't work. Since this deck is fast with a gimmick (a pretty good gimmick mind you) it will have problems in multi where it takes out one or two players and then just peters out. A slower black white deck built around something like token generation or Orzhov ghost dude would probably be better. You would probably take out some of your low end and your auras and replace with something like Spectral Processions, some Ajani/Elspeth and a few more lands. Then you attempt to be more innoculous and then generate an army over 1 or two turns with minimal card investment. The nice thing is that this could be a conversion package. You would just take out something like 16 cards from the single player version and replace with 16 cards from the multi player version.

The current multi version is trying to do a little too much on two few of land. If you could make some of your land double dip (Like using Forbidden watchtowers for defense/offense/mana generation) you could cut some unnecessary cards from the main. A big thing about multi is that powerful effects don't always win the game. Sometimes versatility is better. Purify seems good, but a card like Aura of Silence, which has similar effects and does other things is much better. A card like double cleave is not as good in multi as a dumber fog effect or a card like harms way because there are simply so many more players and dudes on board. Cards that can play offense and defense and still win the game are huge in multi. So are cards that allow you to find solutions to problems. This is why survival of the fittest is one of the best multi cards ever printed.

[Norade]

That thing cleaned up nicely. Yah, I can see how the single player version works. The thing about multi is that a lot of single player strategies just can't work. Since this deck is fast with a gimmick (a pretty good gimmick mind you) it will have problems in multi where it takes out one or two players and then just peters out. A slower black white deck built around something like token generation or Orzhov ghost dude would probably be better. You would probably take out some of your low end and your auras and replace with something like Spectral Processions, some Ajani/Elspeth and a few more lands. Then you attempt to be more innoculous and then generate an army over 1 or two turns with minimal card investment. The nice thing is that this could be a conversion package. You would just take out something like 16 cards from the single player version and replace with 16 cards from the multi player version.

That is what I find this deck ends up doing, it can kill a player two if I'm lucky, and then it draws into nothing. It has no real multi win condition.

On the token idea, what about something like using Panoptic Mirror with an imprinted Battle Screech then tossing Rhys into the deck? Thus each turn I get two more 1/1 fliers and whith Rhys for 6 mana I can double them.

The current multi version is trying to do a little too much on two few of land. If you could make some of your land double dip (Like using Forbidden watchtowers for defense/offense/mana generation) you could cut some unnecessary cards from the main. A big thing about multi is that powerful effects don't always win the game. Sometimes versatility is better. Purify seems good, but a card like Aura of Silence, which has similar effects and does other things is much better. A card like double cleave is not as good in multi as a dumber fog effect or a card like harms way because there are simply so many more players and dudes on board. Cards that can play offense and defense and still win the game are huge in multi. So are cards that allow you to find solutions to problems. This is why survival of the fittest is one of the best multi cards ever printed.

That's why cards like Lightmine Field and Batwing Brume are nice. I just need to grab more copies.

[The Jester]

The reason for the 24 lands that Dark Hellion is advocating is that your deck can play a land every turn up until turn four. In general, for competitive constructed play that has a reasonable power level (i.e. isn't Extended, Legacy or Type 1) and isn't a combo deck, most games will be decided at around turn four or five (if one deck is aggressive) so you want to play lands consistently within the first four turns. 24 lands in a 60 card deck gives an expected value of four lands drawn in the first ten cards, so coupled with mulligans and the fact that you'll draw first in half of your games, your odds of hitting four lands is really good. If you have a very long mana curve, then you'll obviously need more land (and a strong, consistent method to slow the game so you can reach that point) and obviously shorter curves allow you to play less. These numbers are obviously distorted a little by various fixers or additional mana sources, but it forms a good baseline to how your deck will play in general.

[Norade]

The reason for the 24 lands that Dark Hellion is advocating is that your deck can play a land every turn up until turn four. In general, for competitive constructed play that has a reasonable power level (i.e. isn't Extended, Legacy or Type 1) and isn't a combo deck, most games will be decided at around turn four or five (if one deck is aggressive) so you want to play lands consistently within the first four turns. 24 lands in a 60 card deck gives an expected value of four lands drawn in the first ten cards, so coupled with mulligans and the fact that you'll draw first in half of your games, your odds of hitting four lands is really good. If you have a very long mana curve, then you'll obviously need more land (and a strong, consistent method to slow the game so you can reach that point) and obviously shorter curves allow you to play less. These numbers are obviously distorted a little by various fixers or additional mana sources, but it forms a good baseline to how your deck will play in general.

I hope that advice is for somebody other than myself. I say that because I know how my black and white deck plays, in single player anyway, and it's about perfect at 20 lands.

My multi-player elf deck runs even less than that having only 12 and it runs just fine thanks to elves as mana sources.

[Dark Hellion]

Umm... Norade. I am starting to think that you may have a very different definition of runs fine than Jester and me. Hell, my manaless Ichorid deck runs 11 lands, and it is MANALESS ichorid. How is your elf deck supposed to deal with the first pyroclasm that comes along with that few lands? Does it play Land Grant and Search for Tomorrow or something?

See Norade, for an old hat like me I's suspect you are in your I know manabases phase. Its when you have figured out the basics of it but haven't played the thousands of games to get the mastery down. It is a very dangerous time because you tend to get terrible confirmation bias. Mainly, you think the manabase is ok so you pin loses on play errors or not drawing the right solution cards when a lot of these games would be winnable if you just draw more lands.

Lands are the best card type in magic. Sure, they suck but they let you cast instants (the second best card type) and can generate blue mana.

The biggest thing is that you can win a lot of games that you are mana flooded. It is very hard to win any game you are mana screwed. It sounds overly simple and very dumb, but once you grasp it this is a profound revelation.

[Norade]

Umm... Norade. I am starting to think that you may have a very different definition of runs fine than Jester and me. Hell, my manaless Ichorid deck runs 11 lands, and it is MANALESS ichorid. How is your elf deck supposed to deal with the first pyroclasm that comes along with that few lands? Does it play Land Grant and Search for Tomorrow or something?

See Norade, for an old hat like me I's suspect you are in your I know manabases phase. Its when you have figured out the basics of it but haven't played the thousands of games to get the mastery down. It is a very dangerous time because you tend to get terrible confirmation bias. Mainly, you think the manabase is ok so you pin loses on play errors or not drawing the right solution cards when a lot of these games would be winnable if you just draw more lands.

Lands are the best card type in magic. Sure, they suck but they let you cast instants (the second best card type) and can generate blue mana.

The biggest thing is that you can win a lot of games that you are mana flooded. It is very hard to win any game you are mana screwed. It sounds overly simple and very dumb, but once you grasp it this is a profound revelation.

Oh, I know that my elf deck is screwed by early burn, but this is a pure multi elf deck and it doesn't start off as the biggest threat. However if it gets past that stage then it quickly gets too big to burn and further mana ends up as a wasted draw. It was just an example of a deck that I play that needs way less than 24 mana because it doesn't draw well enough to avoid being screwed by drawing a land when it needs an elf to finish a combo. Of course the only reason it lacks draw is the fact that it needs a few cards that I'm too broke to spend money on ATM so I suspect that once I get some more of that I will be glad for more lands.

As for my being in any sort of phase, I could be, but mostly I understand that my decks lose because they suck relative to what they're up against. For example, my elves don't beat a black deck built for first turn kills that also turns into a token factory later. Nor do they beat infinte mana, infinte draw, infinte life, infintye damage artifact decks. I know what makes the decks the beat me tick, and I understand the theory behind building them. I just have more fun opening boosters after buying a box than buildinga deck based on optimal theory and buying singles.

[Commander Xillian]

Well, atleast Norade's still got the spirit! Can't argue that he doesn't. I personally, will buy this one optimal deck, my zombies, and from this point on just collect and archive my cards, keeping libraries of deck builds all wrote up.

On a separate note, to help keep the thread alive, anyone want to share some stories of their best or worst defeat or victory?

[Norade]

Hard to lose the spirit when you play with the same guys you run D&D with and then play Risk well into the AM after a full evening of cards. I don't smoke my self, but the passing of a pipe might also help the group stay together.

[The Jester]

I hope that advice is for somebody other than myself. I say that because I know how my black and white deck plays, in single player anyway, and it's about perfect at 20 lands.

Just saying in general, but I looked through your deck properly (it's been so long since I played, and there are so many new cards... Anyhow, your deck curves out to three (though not very gracefully) but you have a bunch of what I guess are pretty decent four drops in Voracious Hatchling. If you're holding one, you'll obviously want to play it ASAP and for that you need to curve out to four. Most of your creatures aren't very impressive in and of themselves and it seems to be that you're just playing them so you can enchant them with Edge of Divinity. Good creatures should already be scary by themselves so you can force your opponent to deal with the threat rather let him continue with whatever his game plan might be.

Honestly, I would up the land count and make the deck curve out to four (add more four drop creatures) so you have more staying power and try to play more scary creatures.

As for the mathematics behind your land count for a deck that curves out to three which means you could actually cut a land and be just as reliable 24 land deck that curves to four.

My multi-player elf deck runs even less than that having only 12 and it runs just fine thanks to elves as mana sources.

Please note where I say land counts are disrupted by mana fixers and additional mana sources.

Anyhow stories:

Back when I did play type-2 in Mirrodin/Onslaught (before the release of Darksteel and all the fucked up shit that caused), I played a zombie deck running Withered Wretch, Rotlung Reanimator and Graveborn Muse (i.e. only the good zombies). I did run Twisted Abomination to begin with, which is good when you play Unholy Grotto since you can eventually build to a position where you can cast it and it's quite tough when on the board, but cut them in favour of Chrome Moxes since the tempo boost was so huge in a deck that runs Mindsludge, Persecute, Graveborn Muse and Phyrexian Arena. It was quite strong in the metagame of Astral Slide, Blue/White control, land destruction, Goblins and Affinity (with Broodstar and none of that Skullclamp/Ravager/Disciple bullshit) since it had generally stronger cards than control and could easily kill creature decks due to having black removal.

Anyhow, I was deathly afraid of facing decks siding in Karma and I only had Oblivion Stone to remove enchantments, which would be useless against a quick Karma. So I played Coercion (which really sucks for competitive Magic) as a fighting chance against such circumstances. Anyhow, turns out Coercion can be pretty good against the control decks of the time when you can play in on turn two with a mox. The interesting part is that it's one of the few black discard spells which can let you force a land discard. It's surprising how many times I actually caught players with a turn two Coercion on the play (or even on the draw) when they kept a two land hand with Eternal Dragon. A good hand suddenly becomes total crap if your effective three lands goes to one. The look on their faces when they read the card to check that Coercion does in fact say "a card" without any restrictions was just too good for words. Forcing a mana screw with such a crappy card always brought a smile to my face.

In the type-2 before that (Odyssey/Onslaught), I played a blue/white deck with lots of weenies, Divine Sacrament, Sunstrike Legionnaire (a card everybody had to read when it came onto the tournament table), Battle Screech and Quiet Speculation which was again, non-standard but still quite powerful (playing against Mirari's Wake sucked though).The fun part of the deck was that I can easily generate 6 bird tokens with just two lands, Quiet Speculation, Sustrike Legionnaire and two other white creature which is really shocking when you see so many creatures come out of so little mana. The process was to cast Speculation for three Screeches, tap Legionnaire and two other creatures to Flashback Screech (Legionnaire untaps), use the two new birds plus Legionnaire to Flashback another Screech, and then repeat again to flashback another Screech. A follow-up of Divine Sacrament of Opposition would pretty much end the game from than point.

[Agent Sorchus]

I am with Norade on the subject of elves in Multi. Multi rarely rewards people for being aggressive in the first 4 turns, I only saw two decks that had a good early game multi agro. Late game combos are far better. This is why none of my multi decks run 24, you don't really want to be drawing land after a certain point. Now that point is really hard to balance, but most my decks run just a little lean at 20 or 21 land. So long as you realize that playing lean mean you might have to keep things smaller for longer 20 to 25 land is perfectly fine. And yes elves have the excuse to run far fewer land, 12 or 14 might work for elves but almost no one else.

As for best victory, that is kind of a tie. Victory 1 was a crazy multi player game where everyone brought combo decks, ie. infinite slivers or other wacky things, and each player was allowed to pick 10 cards out of the deck before shuffling and place them back on top in any order after shuffling. I proceeded to shut the game down just one turn before the first combo went off by playing Death Pits of Rath, Caltrops, and Aether Flash. No creature for any of these little munchkins. Game was called after a couple of turns due to time, but almost none of the players could do anything about me burning them away one by one.

The other most impressive victory was again in a multi game where we had arrived in the end game. Most players couldn't use even halve of their lands and every body (except me) had full army's of creatures. None of them were bothering me because I had one of my favorite but weak decks and they were afraid of leaving themselves open to some one else. So my turn came around, I played Mana Geyser followed by Grab the Reins, which was then promptly Radiated. So now I owned all the creatures, and used my combat step to annihilate one player, with two more to go. So I followed through with a Radiated Seize the Day. Now I had a turn that had as many extra Combat steps as there were creatures, so I finished another player off. Finally with more than twenty combat steps left I started attack the last player with the only untapped creature I had left, his own white weenie that had Vigilance. That one creature attacked twenty times and won me the game.

[Norade]

I hope that advice is for somebody other than myself. I say that because I know how my black and white deck plays, in single player anyway, and it's about perfect at 20 lands.

Just saying in general, but I looked through your deck properly (it's been so long since I played, and there are so many new cards... Anyhow, your deck curves out to three (though not very gracefully) but you have a bunch of what I guess are pretty decent four drops in Voracious Hatchling. If you're holding one, you'll obviously want to play it ASAP and for that you need to curve out to four. Most of your creatures aren't very impressive in and of themselves and it seems to be that you're just playing them so you can enchant them with Edge of Divinity. Good creatures should already be scary by themselves so you can force your opponent to deal with the threat rather let him continue with whatever his game plan might be.

Honestly, I would up the land count and make the deck curve out to four (add more four drop creatures) so you have more staying power and try to play more scary creatures.

As for the mathematics behind your land count for a deck that curves out to three which means you could actually cut a land and be just as reliable 24 land deck that curves to four.

No, my creatures aren't as impressive off the drop as they could be, but any correct combination of two or three casting cost creatures and one or two enchantments or instances of double cleave and my deck tends to do it's thing especially if I get a Nip Gwyllion out turn one and lay down two Edge's next turn and swing for seven. That is unless the other player has the mana free for a counterspell. Even if he does that would mean he played nothing else on turn two and traded two mana for one no matter what he countered. Even assuming my opponent played a 1 drop blocker first and then countered he would be down a blocker and I would be up in life winning any trade.

The deck is built to play a certain way and can rather commonly win or force concession against other decks by turn 3 or 4.

My multi-player elf deck runs even less than that having only 12 and it runs just fine thanks to elves as mana sources.

Please note where I say land counts are disrupted by mana fixers and additional mana sources.

Noted, it was simply and example of a deck not following that curve.

Anyhow stories:

<snip>

Sounds like good times.

[Norade]

I am with Norade on the subject of elves in Multi. Multi rarely rewards people for being aggressive in the first 4 turns, I only saw two decks that had a good early game multi agro. Late game combos are far better. This is why none of my multi decks run 24, you don't really want to be drawing land after a certain point. Now that point is really hard to balance, but most my decks run just a little lean at 20 or 21 land. So long as you realize that playing lean mean you might have to keep things smaller for longer 20 to 25 land is perfectly fine. And yes elves have the excuse to run far fewer land, 12 or 14 might work for elves but almost no one else.

I know we have a few players that like to roar out of the gate and they have decks that can do it, but if they get a bad draw and we see that deck that player always goes early. It's the guys playing turn 10 artifact combo decks that play quietly and pass the turn almost without people knowing that tend to win.

As for you stories, game 2 sounds like my win where the black and white deck above won by using shadow to hit the guy who thought he was going to win for 20 directly and then marching on the other guy who was near dead with my smaller creatures. I didn't expect to win, but I'll take it.

[The Jester]

No, my creatures aren't as impressive off the drop as they could be, but any correct combination of two or three casting cost creatures and one or two enchantments or instances of double cleave and my deck tends to do it's thing especially if I get a Nip Gwyllion out turn one and lay down two Edge's next turn and swing for seven. That is unless the other player has the mana free for a counterspell. Even if he does that would mean he played nothing else on turn two and traded two mana for one no matter what he countered. Even assuming my opponent played a 1 drop blocker first and then countered he would be down a blocker and I would be up in life winning any trade.

Or your opponent could play a turn one mountain and pass the turn. Want to try enchanting on turn two then?

You have a lot of assumptions about possible draws and you ignore the fact your opponent will try to disrupt you and will have their own unfair plays that they can make. Heck, since you're investing three cards into a single creature, what's making chump blocking a couple times to force the game longer such a bad play? Sure you're opponent is losing in the short term, but your deck will run out of gas fast and then you'll be facing down cards far better than anything you have available.

The deck is built to play a certain way and can rather commonly win or force concession against other decks by turn 3 or 4.

Sure, I guess if you opponent just sits there doing very little, I guess. Still, aside from praying to whatever deity of magic you follow, how else can you respond to a turn one mountain?

I used to love playing extended back when it was Tempest block to Onslaught. I tried a number of decks during that period including suicide black (Negators were the shit), Reanimator (or even more suicide black, as I liked to call it), white/blue weenie or white/blue/black weenie. Reanimator could clearly do the most broken shit though, but I played a mono-black version after the banning of Entomb which was really hard to play. Memorable moments included first game of a tournament, mulligan to six on the play with Akroma, Reanimate and a Swamp in hand. I just went fuck it and passed the turn without a play. The look of confusion on my opponents face was priceless.

Turn two: Draw then pass. Opponent: Seriously! What the fuck!. He plays some weenie.

Turn three: Draw, pass then discard Akroma during discard. I think my opponent may have figured it out at this point, but continues by playing some other small creature.

Turn four: Swamp. Reanimate. Rock on!

Don't remember whether I won or not (probably not, since the play isn't very good) but the look on you opponent's face when you just pass without shit on the board is hilarious.

[Norade]

No, my creatures aren't as impressive off the drop as they could be, but any correct combination of two or three casting cost creatures and one or two enchantments or instances of double cleave and my deck tends to do it's thing especially if I get a Nip Gwyllion out turn one and lay down two Edge's next turn and swing for seven. That is unless the other player has the mana free for a counterspell. Even if he does that would mean he played nothing else on turn two and traded two mana for one no matter what he countered. Even assuming my opponent played a 1 drop blocker first and then countered he would be down a blocker and I would be up in life winning any trade.

Or your opponent could play a turn one mountain and pass the turn. Want to try enchanting on turn two then?

Yes, if it's turn two that means I have my creature out. There are some mana producing tricks that can be done off of a single mana, but none I know of at instant speed. You could also use a pact, but then you have to have mana the next turn or lose. If you burn it in my main phase it will survive, you can't count black/white spells with that mana and you have no blocker so you'd be taking 7 damage and I'd gain 7 life.

You have a lot of assumptions about possible draws and you ignore the fact your opponent will try to disrupt you and will have their own unfair plays that they can make. Heck, since you're investing three cards into a single creature, what's making chump blocking a couple times to force the game longer such a bad play? Sure you're opponent is losing in the short term, but your deck will run out of gas fast and then you'll be facing down cards far better than anything you have available.

That was a single best case example. I have played in two best record tournaments, where you play everybody in a best of three and the person with the best record wins. My deck was a worse version of the above, and in the 13 games I played at each of them, I lost a single match and took each set at both of them. Not the best sample size, but that deck isn't, by any means, a weak deck.

The deck is built to play a certain way and can rather commonly win or force concession against other decks by turn 3 or 4.

Sure, I guess if you opponent just sits there doing very little, I guess. Still, aside from praying to whatever deity of magic you follow, how else can you respond to a turn one mountain?[/quote]

Ignoring the fact that I can hit you with a flier on turn three for 7 or more damage with the right draws and I have 6 possible fliers out of a 60 card deck odds aren't bad that having seen 10 cards I would have drawn one, less of a guarantee with the enchantments and instants, but in either case I am likely to have one of the two cards to be able to swing for at least 4 double strike flying, or 7 flying. Nothing is 100% though.

I used to love playing extended back when it was Tempest block to Onslaught. I tried a number of decks during that period including suicide black (Negators were the shit), Reanimator (or even more suicide black, as I liked to call it), white/blue weenie or white/blue/black weenie. Reanimator could clearly do the most broken shit though, but I played a mono-black version after the banning of Entomb which was really hard to play. Memorable moments included first game of a tournament, mulligan to six on the play with Akroma, Reanimate and a Swamp in hand. I just went fuck it and passed the turn without a play. The look of confusion on my opponents face was priceless.

Turn two: Draw then pass. Opponent: Seriously! What the fuck!. He plays some weenie.

Turn three: Draw, pass then discard Akroma during discard. I think my opponent may have figured it out at this point, but continues by playing some other small creature.

Turn four: Swamp. Reanimate. Rock on!

Don't remember whether I won or not (probably not, since the play isn't very good) but the look on you opponent's face when you just pass without shit on the board is hilarious.

So you can draw into a 4th turn Akroma, my best draw has you dead before then unless you have reanimate in hand. One version of my deck also had the ability to get shadow on my flier by that time as well so you couldn't block. Not to mention either Akroma dies to my weakest version of the flier, though in that case it ends up as a trade.

[Commander Xillian]

Call this braging, but I think my Zombie deck has a very very nice ballance, especially with my Requim. Get it charging long enough, and then BAM! Everyone you don't like goes bye bye, leaving the enemy open for a 24/17 Soulless one, or some such bull.


ALSO! before I forget, how well do Elves run? Are they typically a good set to work?

[Norade]

Call this braging, but I think my Zombie deck has a very very nice ballance, especially with my Requim. Get it charging long enough, and then BAM! Everyone you don't like goes bye bye, leaving the enemy open for a 24/17 Soulless one, or some such bull.


ALSO! before I forget, how well do Elves run? Are they typically a good set to work?

Well built elves run very smooth and have many win conditions such as having everything block a single elf while the others pass through. To generating mana to fireball. To equipping an elf with a mage slayer and cranking his power.

[Commander Xillian]

Well, well built anything runs smoothly. But, how are they comapired to, say, Slivers or Kavu, hell even Zombies?

[Terralthra]

No, my creatures aren't as impressive off the drop as they could be, but any correct combination of two or three casting cost creatures and one or two enchantments or instances of double cleave and my deck tends to do it's thing especially if I get a Nip Gwyllion out turn one and lay down two Edge's next turn and swing for seven. That is unless the other player has the mana free for a counterspell. Even if he does that would mean he played nothing else on turn two and traded two mana for one no matter what he countered. Even assuming my opponent played a 1 drop blocker first and then countered he would be down a blocker and I would be up in life winning any trade.

Or your opponent could play a turn one mountain and pass the turn. Want to try enchanting on turn two then?

Yes, if it's turn two that means I have my creature out. There are some mana producing tricks that can be done off of a single mana, but none I know of at instant speed. You could also use a pact, but then you have to have mana the next turn or lose. If you burn it in my main phase it will survive, you can't count black/white spells with that mana and you have no blocker so you'd be taking 7 damage and I'd gain 7 life.

You're missing the point. Turn 1: You play swamp, tap, summon Nyp Gwyllion, pass. He plays Mountain, passes. You draw, play another land, announce you're casting Edge of the Divinity. In response, he taps his mountain and burst lightnings your critter. You have nothing you can do in response. Gwyllion dies, aura fails due to lack of declared target. He gains 1 card advantage and 1/2 tempo. But, I guess if he had just sat there and done nothing, you'd be winning?

[Norade]

You're missing the point. Turn 1: You play swamp, tap, summon Nyp Gwyllion, pass. He plays Mountain, passes. You draw, play another land, announce you're casting Edge of the Divinity. In response, he taps his mountain and burst lightnings your critter. You have nothing you can do in response. Gwyllion dies, aura fails due to lack of declared target. He gains 1 card advantage and 1/2 tempo. But, I guess if he had just sat there and done nothing, you'd be winning?

I tap land number two and play the second enchantment and laugh as he wastes a card ideally.

[KrauserKrauser]

Enchantments are played at instant speed now?

Try again sir, auras are generally considered recipes for giving your opponents card advantage.

[Norade]

Enchantments are played at instant speed now?

Try again sir, auras are generally considered recipes for giving your opponents card advantage.

Shit, goes to show how often it comes up.

Might be swapping those for cards that also grant totem armor now, or simply changing them to instants.

[KrauserKrauser]

You might want to look into an old BW aggro deck from Kamigawa called Ghost Daddy. It looks like it has alot of the elements you are looking for.