The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Edward Yee]

nobody_really, you misread the point of Jackson's answer -- his way with words probably made him sound better/more wily... after all, Petraeus had already "made" him and Asanee:

At that point Petraeus became aware that Jackson and Asanee were both looking shifty. In fact, they looked downright evasive. "Let me guess, you two as well?"

I will note in Abigor's case that he also "benefits" sympathy-wise from his army getting mudhole stomped the FUCK out; the demons as a whole have benefited from this, actually. (In a weird way, it reminds me of the theory of Lost Cause sympathy only working because people realize that the CSA's not actually coming back.)

Well, it means the yard dogs will have some really nasty stains to remove. Good point on the various British Special Forces. It just seems the most likely unit to send is the SAS.

Depends on the objective behind that entry, besides to say "we got here first."

[Nematocyst]

Securing a point in the center of the Eternal City, from which air strikes can be launched to almost any point in it, finding out what the hell is going on in the Ultimate Temple, invade it (saving the ground troops a brutal street fighting) and, if possible, destroying or capturing Yahweh (the HEA doesn't know he's dead yet) sound like good reasons to drop something in the lake.

There's also the neverending glory of being the first living, free humans in the Eternal City.

[Edward Yee]

Securing a point in the center of the Eternal City, from which air strikes can be launched to almost any point in it, finding out what the hell is going on in the Ultimate Temple, invade it (saving the ground troops a brutal street fighting) and, if possible, destroying or capturing Yahweh (the HEA doesn't know he's dead yet) sound like good reasons to drop something in the lake.

Those are all valid missions, certainly, it just depends on which mission was decided on (I'm not implying that they were mutually exclusive), to what extent they should be carried out, and thus who to task with them. For example, the SFSG might be along for the ride just for the sake of greater numerical presence. Just speculating here, since Stuart holds all the cards WRT force structure and the brass' planning.

I do find it interesting though that other than the DSEALs, unless he meant Army Special Forces ("Green Berets") in all such mentions, he seems to be using "Special Forces" as a catchall on the American side; that's the reason for my continual half-jest.

There's also the neverending glory of being the first living, free humans in the Eternal City.

Putin, you have been outdone... sort of.

I have to say, it'd be ironic if the tasked unit included the "B-Team." *pokes Stuart til he lets Greg Crowleigh in on this*

[Stuart Mackey]

Thus, the British Readers should rejoice. Their Military Ops are (UnOfficially) the First Living Humans inside the Eternal City.

Petraeus smiled. "I see the SAS are living up to their reputations then.

There is more than one SAS unit, and they are not all British

[Edward Yee]

There is more than one SAS unit, and they are not all British

Oh damned skippy!

Though it would be darkly hilarious if it were the Zimbabwean incarnation...

EDIT: I was referring to UKSF, not to the Enterprise, regarding "why/mission." I will say that it most likely would have been nowhere near 200 million angels attacking the Enterprise, but agreed, a good thing that we hopefully won't have to find out.

[JonB]

The description of the 'shields' that Yah-Yah amd Mike used remind me a lot of the Langston Fields from the CoDominium universe of Pournelle and Niven. (Read The Mote in God's Eye now. If you already have, read it again.) They absorb energy but once they are overloaded they collapse inward, destroying what they were trying to protect. Very familiar to me - although you can apparently see through these defensive screens.

[Arachnidus]

Securing a point in the center of the Eternal City, from which air strikes can be launched to almost any point in it, finding out what the hell is going on in the Ultimate Temple, invade it (saving the ground troops a brutal street fighting) and, if possible, destroying or capturing Yahweh (the HEA doesn't know he's dead yet) sound like good reasons to drop something in the lake.

There's also the neverending glory of being the first living, free humans in the Eternal City.

Pretty much this. Having a carrier group in the dead center of that space makes air support much easier to deliver.

[KlavoHunter]

Securing a point in the center of the Eternal City, from which air strikes can be launched to almost any point in it, finding out what the hell is going on in the Ultimate Temple, invade it (saving the ground troops a brutal street fighting) and, if possible, destroying or capturing Yahweh (the HEA doesn't know he's dead yet) sound like good reasons to drop something in the lake.

There's also the neverending glory of being the first living, free humans in the Eternal City.

Pretty much this. Having a carrier group in the dead center of that space makes air support much easier to deliver.

But also surrounded on EVERY side by 200 million Angels... I don't know if you could possibly assemble enough naval AA to deal with even a fraction of that.

Fortunately, I think we won't have to find out.

[Nematocyst]

I do find it interesting though that other than the DSEALs, unless he meant Army Special Forces ("Green Berets") in all such mentions, he seems to be using "Special Forces" as a catchall on the American side

This raises a question I've been asking myself:

The Green Berets are US Special Forces, but not all US Special Forces are Green Berets. Is this true?
I ask this because I've seen 'Green Berets' used to mention most of the US Special Forces (namely, SEALs, Rangers, Delta Force and CCT) before, but then I learned the GBs might be a separate force also within the US Special Forces, so I'm confused.

[Jeremy]

Was Satan as strong, weaker, or stronger than Michael in "energy"?

[Nematocyst]

I'd say Satan was stronger. He lasted less than Michael in his battle against Yahweh, but Yahweh had all of his supporters with him, including Michael.

[Edward Yee]

The Green Berets are US Special Forces, but not all US Special Forces are Green Berets. Is this true?

Pretty much, though "Green Berets" is a misnomer, I was just using the vernacular term to link it to the 'proper' term.

I ask this because I've seen 'Green Berets' used to mention most of the US Special Forces (namely, SEALs, Rangers, Delta Force and CCT) before, but then I learned the GBs might be a separate force also within the US Special Forces, so I'm confused.

The military officially refers to the whole of "US Special Forces" (your use) as "special operations forces" (SOF), while "Special Forces" in official use refers specifically to what's called Army Special Forces, organized into several Special Forces Groups. The unofficial "Green Berets" moniker comes from JFK authorizing those for use/wear exclusively by Special Forces.

"Rangers" means the 75th Ranger Regiment, seen in Black Hawk Down. If you see references to Ranger School, though, that actually is a training course separate from assessment/selection for the unit.

As for Delta... uh, what were we talking about again?

[CaptainChewbacca]

But also surrounded on EVERY side by 200 million Angels... I don't know if you could possibly assemble enough naval AA to deal with even a fraction of that.

Fortunately, I think we won't have to find out.

That assumes you could get more than 20% to fly up and toward what they recognize as certain death. I don't think Heaven could muster more than 100,000 willing to charge massed anti-air fire like that.

[declan]

"I can honestly say that Her Majesty's Armed Forces have no covert operations groups stationed outside The Eternal City." Sir Michael Jackson sounded positively righteous.

I wanna know how the SAS got inside. That story would be badass in and of itself.

The least dramatic method for the SAS would have been to hitch a ride on one of the recon flights that have been taking place over the eternal city( hmm, does los angeles directly translate into city of angels ?) and simply do a halo insertion, possibly into the lake.

Declan

[Nematocyst]

It translates directly into 'the angels'

[Edward Yee]

That assumes you could get more than 20% to fly up and toward what they recognize as certain death. I don't think Heaven could muster more than 100,000 willing to charge massed anti-air fire like that.

How many angels would recognize the concept of AA fire anyway, much less think that even a floating city could put out massed AA fire?

*LOL at thinking the Enterprise as a way of saying "The humans hate you so much they're bringing a floating city just to punch your Eternal City in the face*

*chin rub if the unidentified-UKSF were inserted into the lake and are still there, instead of the Enterprise, when it's time to dispose of Yahweh's body*

[GrayAnderson]

Excellent chapter yet again!

Jeremy: Traditionally, I was told that Satan was an equal of Michael's (roughly speaking) and heavily inferior to the Almighty. Now, that's not saying what Stuart did within the story (there are enough nuanced variations on some of these points that trying to pick exactly which one to go with is borderline impossible), but it's what I was told growing up.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Excellent chapter yet again!

Jeremy: Traditionally, I was told that Satan was an equal of Michael's (roughly speaking) and heavily inferior to the Almighty. Now, that's not saying what Stuart did within the story (there are enough nuanced variations on some of these points that trying to pick exactly which one to go with is borderline impossible), but it's what I was told growing up.

According to various myths, Lucifer was GREATEST among all the angels, the most beautiful and radiant of all. I would say he was probably Uriel-Plus. He was so strong he got one third of the Host to follow him against Yaweh.

[barricade]

Normally, I would question HOW we managed to get people into the Eternal City. Then I remembered the infiltraitors are the SAS. They do that sort of mission for fun!

Sometimes, you just gotta live up to the Reputation.

Leaving notes on the queens bed table does tend to give you something of a reputation.

Okay, this I want to hear about. Because I want to hear about both who's head rolled inside palace security, and also which unit pulled it off.

[Erra]

Excellent chapter yet again!

Jeremy: Traditionally, I was told that Satan was an equal of Michael's (roughly speaking) and heavily inferior to the Almighty. Now, that's not saying what Stuart did within the story (there are enough nuanced variations on some of these points that trying to pick exactly which one to go with is borderline impossible), but it's what I was told growing up.

According to various myths, Lucifer was GREATEST among all the angels, the most beautiful and radiant of all. I would say he was probably Uriel-Plus. He was so strong he got one third of the Host to follow him against Yaweh.

I'd say this is probably true, Satan being stronger than Michael that is. Remember, Satan squished some lesser demons in his great hall into nothingness just by staring at them. That is Uriel like power for sure. Yahweh just trashed him easier because as has been mentioned, he had all the angels support including Michael and Uriel.

[darksoul]

In the Lemuel-Michael business, Lemuel is not going to forgive, OK, but at least there is something Michael can take off his shoulders, and that's the addiction thing. For angels. being addicted to drugs is not such a big deal physically. Michael himself and most of his friends are addicted to something. Is not as if its going to kill them or made them sick or anything. The only thing it does is enslave them to the provider. And that's a whole different point Lemuel has over Michael, the trickery and betrayal of his loyalty.
On the torture of Maion and Lemuel's torture of innocents... yeah, Michael is going to have a tough one arguing with him about it. I don't think Lemuel is in no way prepared for logical arguments currently. Maybe in a century or so.

I still think that humans had seen this scheme before and are not going to be so easily tricked into Michael's gambit. Michael might get to rule to avoid race conflicts with humans running a country of people used to run others, but he won't be left alone, and it won't last. The whole "frame the dictator and save the ministers" act had been played in the past a lot, with coup and everything. It's almost standard issue in the politics of a failing autocratic regime.

I still believe that Michael should be killed. He is too dangerous to have around, either in power or not. A personality capable of he has pulled is to dangerous to live, taking into consideration that you can't watch him forever and don't know what resources he can tap yet. Or what ideas he can come up with, even if those ideas are only copies of human ones.

And an aircraft carrier in the center of the city it's a very good idea, since portal logistics can sustain that beach head indefinitely and the concept of surrounding it's no more in effect. Angels are not going to attack that, they are not suicidal like baldricks.

And yes, Satan ought to be stronger than Michael, otherwise he couldn't have been able to face yahwe in all his might. Were he not, that would meant that Satan's rebellion would had to take on Yahwe, Uriel, Michael and probably Elhmas, all stronger than him separately, plus Rafael, Azrael, Raguel, and Gabriel, who could be as strong or slightly less. Those are odds that wouldn't allow an impasse in war long enough to create hell and settle from uprising to cold war.

[Stuart]

According to various myths, Lucifer was GREATEST among all the angels, the most beautiful and radiant of all. I would say he was probably Uriel-Plus. He was so strong he got one third of the Host to follow him against Yaweh. I'd say this is probably true, Satan being stronger than Michael that is. Remember, Satan squished some lesser demons in his great hall into nothingness just by staring at them. That is Uriel like power for sure. Yahweh just trashed him easier because as has been mentioned, he had all the angels support including Michael and Uriel.

According to some mythology, Satan/Lucifer was more than Yahweh's greatest angel, he was Yahweh's brother. I've gone with that, firstly because it makes for a more rounded story and secondly because it's considered blackest heresy. In fact, the family relationship I'm playing with is that Yahweh is the oldest brother with Uriel and Lucifer as younger brothers, possibly even twin younger brothers. They're the sort of royal family of Heaven/Hell. Whether they are the same race as the angels or whether they have come from outside is canonically unclear at this time (in other words, keep reading). Either way, it does raise the question of the rest of the family.

Lucifer and Uriel were both much stronger that Michael individually. That's how Lucifer managed to stand up to Yahweh virtually unsupported and why Uriel was so decisive. Yahweh + Uriel = virtually instant annihilation for any opposition. Michael couldn't kill Uriel, he had to rely on humans to do that for him (and they found it hard enough, they basically had to grind him down). Satan died beacuse he was caught unawares; he simply didn't have time to deflect the inbound missiles. If he's had more time, he might have survived. that was symbolic of what happened to the daemons as a whole; they might have survived as a functioning society but they simply didn't have time to adapt.

[Stuart]

There is more than one SAS unit, and they are not all British

Notice that General Petraeus said "their" reputation, not "its" reputation

[Arachnidus]

According to various myths, Lucifer was GREATEST among all the angels, the most beautiful and radiant of all. I would say he was probably Uriel-Plus. He was so strong he got one third of the Host to follow him against Yaweh. I'd say this is probably true, Satan being stronger than Michael that is. Remember, Satan squished some lesser demons in his great hall into nothingness just by staring at them. That is Uriel like power for sure. Yahweh just trashed him easier because as has been mentioned, he had all the angels support including Michael and Uriel.

According to some mythology, Satan/Lucifer was more than Yahweh's greatest angel, he was Yahweh's brother. I've gone with that, firstly because it makes for a more rounded story and secondly because it's considered blackest heresy. In fact, the family relationship I'm playing with is that Yahweh is the oldest brother with Uriel and Lucifer as younger brothers, possibly even twin younger brothers. They're the sort of royal family of Heaven/Hell. Whether they are the same race as the angels or whether they have come from outside is canonically unclear at this time (in other words, keep reading). Either way, it does raise the question of the rest of the family.

Lucifer and Uriel were both much stronger that Michael individually. That's how Lucifer managed to stand up to Yahweh virtually unsupported and why Uriel was so decisive. Yahweh + Uriel = virtually instant annihilation for any opposition. Michael couldn't kill Uriel, he had to rely on humans to do that for him (and they found it hard enough, they basically had to grind him down). Satan died beacuse he was caught unawares; he simply didn't have time to deflect the inbound missiles. If he's had more time, he might have survived. that was symbolic of what happened to the daemons as a whole; they might have survived as a functioning society but they simply didn't have time to adapt.

Then by that token, Stuart, would you consider Uriel to be an equivalent to Satan/Yah Yah or just a really powerful angel with a unique set of abilities?

[Stuart]

Then by that token, Stuart, would you consider Uriel to be an equivalent to Satan/Yah Yah or just a really powerful angel with a unique set of abilities?

A junior equivalent to (and family member of) Satan and Yahweh. That's why his abilities were apparently unique.