Magic: The Gathering

[Terralthra]

Enchantments are played at instant speed now?

Try again sir, auras are generally considered recipes for giving your opponents card advantage.

Shit, goes to show how often it comes up.

Might be swapping those for cards that also grant totem armor now, or simply changing them to instants.

Yeah. Lands ignore the stack, but can only be played when the stack is empty. Instants and abilities use the stack. Anything else can only be played when the stack is empty, and can be responded to using the stack.

[Norade]

Yeah. Lands ignore the stack, but can only be played when the stack is empty. Instants and abilities use the stack. Anything else can only be played when the stack is empty, and can be responded to using the stack.

I'm not that new. That's one of those rules I knew when thinking about it, but somehow tried to play differently.

Anyway, I think I have an idea of where to go with my deck now. I'll post once I've looked it over.

[lance]

If people get better that is the exact sort of thing that will happen all the time. Its why there are almost no aura's used in competitive play.

[Norade]

2nd Turn, Infinite Turn Cheese

Lands: 20
2 Ancient Den
4 Azorius Chancery
4 REmote Farm
Saprazzan Skerry
2 Seat of the Synod
4 Tolarian Academy

Creatures: 4
4 Birds of Paradise

Other: 36
1 Black Lotus
3 Mana Crypt
4 Panoptic Mirror
4 Time Vault
4 Unbender Tine
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Brain Storm
4 Dark Ritual
2 Vitalize
2 Index
4 Temporal Manipulation
4 Violent Ultimatum

So, this was the best deck I can come up with without way too much work. How does it look?

[Terralthra]

Like it's no fun to play. If you want to sit at a table and diddle yourself with cards, don't waste everyone else's time watching you.

[Norade]

Like it's no fun to play. If you want to sit at a table and diddle yourself with cards, don't waste everyone else's time watching you.

I guess not everybody gets the appeal of vintage then. I'd never get the cards for this anyway, but I wanted to know if the design is solid?

[Dark Hellion]

It looks like it is blatantly illegal.

Mana Crypt is restricted. Time Vault is restricted. Brainstorm is restricted. Tolarian Academy is restricted.

It loses to Force of Will, Chalice for 1, Wasteland, Sphere of resistance or trinisphere. Hell, it will have trouble against duress/thoughtsieze. Its an extremely weak, shitty ginzu deck that won't turn two as much as you think and lacks any internal symmetry.

Its a bad version of T1 Tezzeret decks. It will lose against everything else at the same power level.

[Norade]

It looks like it is blatantly illegal.

Mana Crypt is restricted. Time Vault is restricted. Brainstorm is restricted. Tolarian Academy is restricted.

It loses to Force of Will, Chalice for 1, Wasteland, Sphere of resistance or trinisphere. Hell, it will have trouble against duress/thoughtsieze. Its an extremely weak, shitty ginzu deck that won't turn two as much as you think and lacks any internal symmetry.

Its a bad version of T1 Tezzeret decks. It will lose against everything else at the same power level.

Well shit, I only knew that 2 of the cards were restricted and that was just because it's common knowledge that Black Lotus is nuts and I happened to see Ancestral Knowledge come up in an article. In that case don't even bother.

Also, it was a first attempt at build for Vintage, a format I never even looked at before I spent a few hours just gazing over Chimera, so please go easy. I mainly play with much weaker cards.

[The Jester]

So you can draw into a 4th turn Akroma, my best draw has you dead before then unless you have reanimate in hand. One version of my deck also had the ability to get shadow on my flier by that time as well so you couldn't block. Not to mention either Akroma dies to my weakest version of the flier, though in that case it ends up as a trade.

Actually, I can play a turn one Akroma under ideal circumstances. Turn one: Swamp. Cabal Therapy myself, naming Akroma. Chrome Mox. Reanimate. Beat face! However this was a pretty rare play and typically not ideal either since normally I would want to play discard for the first turn or two and wreck my opponent's hand and then bring some fatty into play and start beating down hoping they can't draw a solution before their clock runs out.

I had one game against a Psychotog deck in a different tournament. Psychotog is normally a great matchup for me since it can't really deal with big creatures when they hit play and is somewhat allergic to discard. I had a great turn one on the play and destroy my opponent's hand with discard. He draws, plays island and passes the turn. Turn two I get Akroma into my graveyard and try to Reanimate her with no mana open. I knew that the only card that could stop me was Force Spike, otherwise I win. He wasn't holding it, so the only way he could stop me in he drew it with that one card. But what are the odds of that, right? I try to reanimate, Force Spike. Motherfucker! I then go on to lose the game after having a brutal opening draw due to that one lucky topdeck (and some pretty good draws from my opponent and bad draws for myself after that point).

Fast Akroma wasn't the only crazy play the deck could make. One of my favourites was to Cabal Therapy my opponent, reanimate Symbiotic Wurm, sacrifice it to Therapy flashback and put the tokens into play and then reanimate it again. It's hard to fight a 7/7 and seven 1/1s when you've lost your two best cards.

[Norade]

So you can draw into a 4th turn Akroma, my best draw has you dead before then unless you have reanimate in hand. One version of my deck also had the ability to get shadow on my flier by that time as well so you couldn't block. Not to mention either Akroma dies to my weakest version of the flier, though in that case it ends up as a trade.

Actually, I can play a turn one Akroma under ideal circumstances. Turn one: Swamp. Cabal Therapy myself, naming Akroma. Chrome Mox. Reanimate. Beat face! However this was a pretty rare play and typically not ideal either since normally I would want to play discard for the first turn or two and wreck my opponent's hand and then bring some fatty into play and start beating down hoping they can't draw a solution before their clock runs out.

I had one game against a Psychotog deck in a different tournament. Psychotog is normally a great matchup for me since it can't really deal with big creatures when they hit play and is somewhat allergic to discard. I had a great turn one on the play and destroy my opponent's hand with discard. He draws, plays island and passes the turn. Turn two I get Akroma into my graveyard and try to Reanimate her with no mana open. I knew that the only card that could stop me was Force Spike, otherwise I win. He wasn't holding it, so the only way he could stop me in he drew it with that one card. But what are the odds of that, right? I try to reanimate, Force Spike. Motherfucker! I then go on to lose the game after having a brutal opening draw due to that one lucky topdeck (and some pretty good draws from my opponent and bad draws for myself after that point).

Fast Akroma wasn't the only crazy play the deck could make. One of my favourites was to Cabal Therapy my opponent, reanimate Symbiotic Wurm, sacrifice it to Therapy flashback and put the tokens into play and then reanimate it again. It's hard to fight a 7/7 and seven 1/1s when you've lost your two best cards.

Then you're playing with cards and decks I don't normally see in my group so the fuck do I care anyway? Busting out Mox's and shit against a deck that is a single card swap away from being legal in extended...

[Dark Hellion]

Chrome mox is from Mirroden dipshit. Fuck, playing actual moxen does not mean the deck is good. I had a biorhythm-elves deck that was fully powered (aka had $4000 of cards) that could routinely lose to T2 red deck wins. It was a for fun deck that tried to cast turn 2 or 3 biorhythms.

See, Norade you have what I describe as group incest going on. You play with the same people all the time and have gotten the impression that how these people play is how the game works. As is blatantly obvious from this thread, they are very wrong. Now, you could start actually listening to the advice of people who have played more GAMES of magic than you have TURNS, get better and improve your playgroup. Or you can bitch, whine and moan and look for every way to pretend that you are actually better at magic than us.

[Norade]

Chrome mox is from Mirroden dipshit. Fuck, playing actual moxen does not mean the deck is good. I had a biorhythm-elves deck that was fully powered (aka had $4000 of cards) that could routinely lose to T2 red deck wins. It was a for fun deck that tried to cast turn 2 or 3 biorhythms.

See, Norade you have what I describe as group incest going on. You play with the same people all the time and have gotten the impression that how these people play is how the game works. As is blatantly obvious from this thread, they are very wrong. Now, you could start actually listening to the advice of people who have played more GAMES of magic than you have TURNS, get better and improve your playgroup. Or you can bitch, whine and moan and look for every way to pretend that you are actually better at magic than us.

Does it change the fact that his deck isn't legal in current extended? Listen, it's pretty obvious his best decks would work mine right now, but on the rare nights that my group plays single players games I clean house already. If I wanted to see deck lists that could beat mine I'd go look, maybe instead of trying to play a hypothetical match with decks build for different formats just pointing out that there are opening draw instants can ruin my day would do.

I'm open to learning, but I can go else where for that if you're going to be a dick about it.

[Dark Hellion]

Norade, you seem to think that being older makes you better, which is completely untrue. Now, older sets did contain the vast majority of broken cards, but the general power level of magic has actually been pretty steady and growing slightly since Invasion block. There is only 1 block taken in its entirety that is stronger than the modern new magic blocks and that is Urza's Block. Otherwise you have the lackluster Mirage block, the weak Masques block, the oddly incomplete and schizophrenic Ice Age block and the powerful but disjointed Tempest block. You also have a ton of single sets that are all pretty much terrible overall. Sure Arabian Nights, Legends, and Antiquities has some broken cards but the vast majority of the cards are terrible. Not even the normal type of terrible, they are Old Magic absolutely craptacularly terrible.

See, you are trying to make it out that his deck (which was probably extended legal until Onslaught rotated) has some format based advantage over yours. But this is bullshit. The most powerful magic deck to exist was a type 2 deck (Memory Jar) and some of the most powerful decks to have existed were also type2. Affinity was type 2 legal and was ballsy as hell. Academy was type 2 legal and basically resulted in the largest mass banning/restricting in magic history. Hell, sometimes format differences even end up super-goofy, such as the fact that legacy Flash was better than vintage Flash. Even though vintage Flash got to play moxen and Black Lotus, legacy Flash got to play 4x Lotus petal and 4x mystical tutor and played against an overall weaker field.

The thing you don't seem to get is that the deck that wins is not the best deck or the most powerful. The decks that win are those best suited towards winning. Your deck did good in that tournament probably because the players don't play good, cheap creature removal and don't know how to deal with fast, aggressive strategies. I've played in a format where turn 2 and turn 3 kills are common place for well over 5 years now. Being fast does not impress me when your dude is going to get swords/pathed and they are still faster than you. Your deck has a decent gimmick and a bunch of shitty cards and you are trying to pass it off on us as being good. It isn't. I have been nice but since you can't seem to take the hint let me put it bluntly. Even for the card pool and format your deck is designed for it is a totally weak piece of shit that I could rock with a commons deck. You think its good because you are playing in a group of people who all play similarly shitty decks and you pretend that people with better decks are somehow cheating at the game. Don't use money as an excuse. There are formats like Pauper or programs like MWS that make money meaningless and there are games like Mental Magic or Type 4 that make card selection meaningless.

Stop being a fucking chump because we are trying to show you how your pet deck can lose. Losing is the most important part of the game. You should lose and lose and lose and lose until eventually you learn to fucking play and can start to win. Stop making excuses like formats and playgroups and start actually listening to advice instead of trying to shrug it off with the passive/aggressive bullshit you are keep feeding us.

[Norade]

To your first point, what the fuck do you take me for? I know that the vast majority from banned and restricted cards come from older sets. Time spiral has two in extended, Miroden has a ton banned in block and extended as does the Urza block. Vintage and Legacy also ban mostly older cards, many of which were last seen in before 4th came out and were only released after in From the Vault: Exiled. New sets are designed with more synergistic options available and can build decks that are 'better', but less single cards of great overall power.

His deck might have a format based advantage over mine for all I know. I haven't seen it in entirety yet.

As for type two decks being the most broken; no shit! Every card made will by type two legal at some point. That doesn't mean those cards aren't now banned or restricted and they certainly aren't extended legal. Those most powerful every decks won't be extended legal when they rotate in so fuck off.

Did you miss the point where I said show me a currently extended legal deck that can beat mine? Don't just tell me that a deck exists that can, show me. Name the cards I should be playing. If not fuck off, I don't need to hear your shit when I have fun playing every weekend win or lose. At this point I know that my deck is among the best single player decks where I play, though for all I know people have seen it and have figured out how to stop it cold.

Where I said that people who played better decks were cheating? I'm going to ask you to post an example or concede. What I did say was.

Then you're playing with cards and decks I don't normally see in my group so the fuck do I care anyway? Busting out Mox's and shit against a deck that is a single card swap away from being legal in extended...

The extended legal version would replace Teysa with another Deathbringer Liege if that matters.

I never once said money was an excuse, but I'd still rather play with cards I have, and I currently have no plans to buy another box or more singles for the next while. Why do I prefer to play with what I have and only buy boxes/boosters and make trades; simple; any chump can find a deck online and play proxies. Call me when you see some Vintage decks playing real Mox's and real Black Lotuses are hitting tables.

As for my deck, I know it can lose, I even mentioned it losing in the post where I introduced it. If you want to teach me something show me.

[Dark Hellion]

Oh, fuck off you petulant little child. Your rebuttals are nonsensical and your lack of research astonishing. If you don't want to change you deck all you have to do is say one simple thing "I don't want to change my deck. I am happy with it and it suits my play style. I know it isn't the most powerful or best deck but I like it." Boom, your done and only the most unruly asshole will hold it against you. Xillian did this which is why I didn't try to recommend he build something like Eva Green, which is a far superior deck to his, but is thematically and monetarily different than what he set out to make. You have asked for advice and yet every piece of advice has been met with passive-aggressive bullshit on your part. You haven't even made attempts to find superior play choices for your deck like Duress or Tidehollow Sculler which could be located with a very quick search of any Magic search engine.

Now I'll get to the actual meat of your laughable rebuttal.

To your first point, what the fuck do you take me for? I know that the vast majority from banned and restricted cards come from older sets. Time spiral has two in extended, Miroden has a ton banned in block and extended as does the Urza block. Vintage and Legacy also ban mostly older cards, many of which were last seen in before 4th came out and were only released after in From the Vault: Exiled. New sets are designed with more synergistic options available and can build decks that are 'better', but less single cards of great overall power.

Where to begin. Number one, Vintage RESTRICTS cards it doesn't ban them except for ante cards, cards requiring manual dexterity and a few other bullshit cards that have play issues. Yes, most are from older sets because older sets had the most BROKEN cards. They didn't have the highest power level per block though. Lets look at some hilariously bad Legends Cards. Arcades Sabboth or Axelrod Gunnarson are both terrible, terrible cards and I haven't event gotten out of the A's yet. You can find such horrible cards in all the earlier sets. In fact, the worst set in all of magic was a so called older set, Fallen Empires.

The two best creatures in magic are actually newer cards. Dark Confidant is probably the best creature ever printed and Tarmogoyf is the best beater ever printed. These are from Ravnica and Time Spiral blocks respectively. Pound for pound, Ravnica is a better block than Alpha and Alpha had Black Lotus, Time Walk, Moxen and Ancestral Recall. It also had Scryb Sprites and Hill Giants and even more awful cards. Older cards never mean better. Playing better cards makes decks better and these cards don't necessarily come from any particular set.

As for type two decks being the most broken; no shit! Every card made will by type two legal at some point. That doesn't mean those cards aren't now banned or restricted and they certainly aren't extended legal. Those most powerful every decks won't be extended legal when they rotate in so fuck off.

Here you are being an idiot. Type 2 is Standard. As in the two newest blocks and the newest Core set. It is the weakest format because it has the most limited card selection. Type 1 aka Vintage is every set. So, MemJar was a Standard Legal (although standard was a bit different back then) deck that routinely won T1. It was also hideously broken and got Memory Jar banned in Standard and restricted in Vintage but it was a T2 deck. So was Affinity. These were decks from the weakest formats that could go toe to toe with much more powerful formats decks.

Did you miss the point where I said show me a currently extended legal deck that can beat mine? Don't just tell me that a deck exists that can, show me. Name the cards I should be playing. If not fuck off, I don't need to hear your shit when I have fun playing every weekend win or lose. At this point I know that my deck is among the best single player decks where I play, though for all I know people have seen it and have figured out how to stop it cold.

There hasn't been an extended tournament since the format changed so I can't just plop down a page of lists like I'd like to. Instead, let me just make fun of your total fucking hubris. I can name a number of Archtypes that will probably see extended play that will kick your ass. Fairies, Jund, Naya, RDW, and some kind of sneaks in Emrakul/Progenitus BS will all destroy your deck. The fact that you don't understand why should show how woefully unknowledgable you actually are. Instead I'll suffice to post a STANDARD deck that can beat you RDW

As for my deck, I know it can lose, I even mentioned it losing in the post where I introduced it. If you want to teach me something show me.

Here is the problem Norade. It is hard to show you why certain things work if you are as reluctant as you seem to be to accept Magic Theory. I can post a bunch of reasoning about why Aura based strategies are not very good, about why creature based strategies have issues they need to work around, about the ways that the aggro archtype need to control game pacing, etc. But you actually have to show you are willing to nod along and try to take the advice, something you have given no inclination of. Magic is one of the most complex games ever made and pretending that someone can very simply say, "PLAY X IT GOOD" shows how little you actually understand.

[The Jester]

Then you're playing with cards and decks I don't normally see in my group so the fuck do I care anyway? Busting out Mox's and shit against a deck that is a single card swap away from being legal in extended...

I think you missed the point behind my anecdotes.

On a separate note, to help keep the thread alive, anyone want to share some stories of their best or worst defeat or victory?

Yeah, I'm pretty aware that the decks I played are no longer legal in their respective formats since I was playing over five years ago. And Chrome Mox was never very degenerate during this period. I guess I could have put more spacing between my paragraphs to be more clear that they weren't directly relating to you, but honestly I think most people could figure that out from the context.

Anyhow, I'm aware you're playing more casually. However, I don't know why you're getting so defensive when you post a deck for criticism and then get exactly what you asked for. In any group there's always one guy that likes to play either some red deck or a red/green deck with burn and creatures. The point I was trying to make was that your deck just rolls over to fast creature removal which red decks usually have plenty of and overall just doesn't have any particularly scary creatures. Note that my suggestion was to try to add some more individually scary cards and up the mana curve, not try to be as degenerate as possible.

[Norade]

Oh, fuck off you petulant little child. Your rebuttals are nonsensical and your lack of research astonishing. If you don't want to change you deck all you have to do is say one simple thing "I don't want to change my deck. I am happy with it and it suits my play style. I know it isn't the most powerful or best deck but I like it." Boom, your done and only the most unruly asshole will hold it against you. Xillian did this which is why I didn't try to recommend he build something like Eva Green, which is a far superior deck to his, but is thematically and monetarily different than what he set out to make. You have asked for advice and yet every piece of advice has been met with passive-aggressive bullshit on your part. You haven't even made attempts to find superior play choices for your deck like Duress or Tidehollow Sculler which could be located with a very quick search of any Magic search engine.

Now I'll get to the actual meat of your laughable rebuttal.

Again ignoring where I said my deck could be beaten... As for superior cards sure, I could go for them, but if I win already why bother? It's not like I can't do a search and make my deck better as needed. Besides, in case you didn't notice outside of the decks trick it is a life gain deck and I have cards fitting that theme.

To your first point, what the fuck do you take me for? I know that the vast majority from banned and restricted cards come from older sets. Time spiral has two in extended, Miroden has a ton banned in block and extended as does the Urza block. Vintage and Legacy also ban mostly older cards, many of which were last seen in before 4th came out and were only released after in From the Vault: Exiled. New sets are designed with more synergistic options available and can build decks that are 'better', but less single cards of great overall power.

Where to begin. Number one, Vintage RESTRICTS cards it doesn't ban them except for ante cards, cards requiring manual dexterity and a few other bullshit cards that have play issues. Yes, most are from older sets because older sets had the most BROKEN cards. They didn't have the highest power level per block though. Lets look at some hilariously bad Legends Cards. Arcades Sabboth or Axelrod Gunnarson are both terrible, terrible cards and I haven't event gotten out of the A's yet. You can find such horrible cards in all the earlier sets. In fact, the worst set in all of magic was a so called older set, Fallen Empires.

The two best creatures in magic are actually newer cards. Dark Confidant is probably the best creature ever printed and Tarmogoyf is the best beater ever printed. These are from Ravnica and Time Spiral blocks respectively. Pound for pound, Ravnica is a better block than Alpha and Alpha had Black Lotus, Time Walk, Moxen and Ancestral Recall. It also had Scryb Sprites and Hill Giants and even more awful cards. Older cards never mean better. Playing better cards makes decks better and these cards don't necessarily come from any particular set.

Sorry those two formats restrict cards, but those cards are banned in nearly all other formats. I also don't care about overall power level per block, a deck built without restrictions would likely play with the vast majority of its cards having been printed before 4th edition hit. Per card, the earlier additions had the best of cards and the worst of cards. I'd also bet that there are still same great cards in Fallen Empires even if the set sucks.

So a question:

If you could build a deck with no restrictions, would, or would not, nearly your entire deck come from the first 4 sets?

As for type two decks being the most broken; no shit! Every card made will by type two legal at some point. That doesn't mean those cards aren't now banned or restricted and they certainly aren't extended legal. Those most powerful every decks won't be extended legal when they rotate in so fuck off.

Here you are being an idiot. Type 2 is Standard. As in the two newest blocks and the newest Core set. It is the weakest format because it has the most limited card selection. Type 1 aka Vintage is every set. So, MemJar was a Standard Legal (although standard was a bit different back then) deck that routinely won T1. It was also hideously broken and got Memory Jar banned in Standard and restricted in Vintage but it was a T2 deck. So was Affinity. These were decks from the weakest formats that could go toe to toe with much more powerful formats decks.

Yes, however if broken cards are introduced they will still be able to break the game. So in Urza's set a ton came in at once at it was proven to be ridiculous. Which decks in standard have come close to that memory Jar if each set keeps getting better? You made the claim that newer was better than older so back it up.

Did you miss the point where I said show me a currently extended legal deck that can beat mine? Don't just tell me that a deck exists that can, show me. Name the cards I should be playing. If not fuck off, I don't need to hear your shit when I have fun playing every weekend win or lose. At this point I know that my deck is among the best single player decks where I play, though for all I know people have seen it and have figured out how to stop it cold.

There hasn't been an extended tournament since the format changed so I can't just plop down a page of lists like I'd like to. Instead, let me just make fun of your total fucking hubris. I can name a number of Archtypes that will probably see extended play that will kick your ass. Fairies, Jund, Naya, RDW, and some kind of sneaks in Emrakul/Progenitus BS will all destroy your deck. The fact that you don't understand why should show how woefully unknowledgable you actually are. Instead I'll suffice to post a STANDARD deck that can beat you RDW

I actually have a deck, that isn't extended legal that uses Hypergenesis to get Eldrazi out turn 5. I could likely make it faster if I wanted to play with time counter removal. So you're using one deck I have to show that I know nothing and doing a shitty job.

As for my deck, I know it can lose, I even mentioned it losing in the post where I introduced it. If you want to teach me something show me.

Here is the problem Norade. It is hard to show you why certain things work if you are as reluctant as you seem to be to accept Magic Theory. I can post a bunch of reasoning about why Aura based strategies are not very good, about why creature based strategies have issues they need to work around, about the ways that the aggro archtype need to control game pacing, etc. But you actually have to show you are willing to nod along and try to take the advice, something you have given no inclination of. Magic is one of the most complex games ever made and pretending that someone can very simply say, "PLAY X IT GOOD" shows how little you actually understand.

I made a mistake in how Aura's worked because it hasn't come up much for me yet. Realizing that it made me think my deck was a bit weaker than I thought it was. I was going to look at instants that are extended legal that can put out the same power increase and would have been doing this if that time wasn't wasted on telling you to fuck off. You claim that I'm not showing that I learn anything, yet when I ask you anything you just say fuck off newb your deck sucks.

[Norade]

Yeah, I'm pretty aware that the decks I played are no longer legal in their respective formats since I was playing over five years ago. And Chrome Mox was never very degenerate during this period. I guess I could have put more spacing between my paragraphs to be more clear that they weren't directly relating to you, but honestly I think most people could figure that out from the context.

Anyhow, I'm aware you're playing more casually. However, I don't know why you're getting so defensive when you post a deck for criticism and then get exactly what you asked for. In any group there's always one guy that likes to play either some red deck or a red/green deck with burn and creatures. The point I was trying to make was that your deck just rolls over to fast creature removal which red decks usually have plenty of and overall just doesn't have any particularly scary creatures. Note that my suggestion was to try to add some more individually scary cards and up the mana curve, not try to be as degenerate as possible.

Had you said that at the outset this could have all been avoided...

Anyway, on your advice I had looked at making a few changes, I just haven't had the time to look over all of them, check what cards I have, and make the changes.

[Dark Hellion]

Again ignoring where I said my deck could be beaten... As for superior cards sure, I could go for them, but if I win already why bother? It's not like I can't do a search and make my deck better as needed. Besides, in case you didn't notice outside of the decks trick it is a life gain deck and I have cards fitting that theme.

Again with the passive-aggressive bullshit. "If my deck wins why make it better?" What kind of stupidity is this? I'll get to the life gain thing later, suffice to say, it isn't actually a strategy (you can't win with it) its a tactic... and a poor one at that.

Sorry those two formats restrict cards, but those cards are banned in nearly all other formats. I also don't care about overall power level per block, a deck built without restrictions would likely play with the vast majority of its cards having been printed before 4th edition hit. Per card, the earlier additions had the best of cards and the worst of cards. I'd also bet that there are still same great cards in Fallen Empires even if the set sucks.

So a question:

If you could build a deck with no restrictions, would, or would not, nearly your entire deck come from the first 4 sets?

Type 1 is vintage and is the only format that restricts things. Seriously, learn the way the fucking formats work before you try and pretend to be knowledgeable. And seriously, look up Fallen Empires. It blows. It has Hymn to Tourach and pump-knights and that's it. Other than Hymn everything else in the set can be found better someplace newer. The fact that you try to pretend that Fallen Empires has something broken to offer is another showing of your pathetic bluffs. I'll get to the broken card thing is a bit.

I made a mistake in how Aura's worked because it hasn't come up much for me yet. Realizing that it made me think my deck was a bit weaker than I thought it was. I was going to look at instants that are extended legal that can put out the same power increase and would have been doing this if that time wasn't wasted on telling you to fuck off. You claim that I'm not showing that I learn anything, yet when I ask you anything you just say fuck off newb your deck sucks.

How auras work is not an esoteric part of the game, its basic fucking rules. Its like saying "I'm good at chess but I don't really know how those horsey pieces move." The fact that you try to brush it off shows how much of a bullshitting novice you are. You said you were going to look for other creature pumpers, how about some better advice, play better fucking creatures that you don't have to pump to be good. Your playing black and white, you have a gaggle of knights that all kick ass and don't need to be pumped to be decent. You aren't trying to learn. Every change suggested has been met by a callous dismissal on your part and even when I told you two cards that would instantly improve your deck you made some bullshit excuse. The reason why I am telling you that you are a newb and your deck sucks is because you are a newb and your deck sucks. Why can't you get this through your thick fucking skull. So what? Everyone starts out as a terrible player who plays shitty decks. The way you get better is by realizing you are a terrible player who plays a shitty deck and asking "How do I get better and build a better deck." You have a bunch of people on this board who are better players who build better decks and yet you have steadfastly refused any advice so far. Which makes me think you either don't realize how shitty your deck is and how much of a newb you are or that you are conceited enough to actually think you are better than us.

Yes, however if broken cards are introduced they will still be able to break the game. So in Urza's set a ton came in at once at it was proven to be ridiculous. Which decks in standard have come close to that memory Jar if each set keeps getting better? You made the claim that newer was better than older so back it up.

Ok, I am going to try to put a little theory into your head. Broken does not equal powerful. Now, this seems counter-intuitive at first. Luckily, Stronghold printed a card that is perfect for illustrating this. Dream Halls. Now, Dream Halls is broken. I would even go so far as to say it is very broken. But it isn't very good. Huh? you say. How can a card be broken but not good. Its because some abilities are good regardless of the price. For a more modern example take Cruel Ultimatum. Despite costing sideways 8 mana it is still a good card. Why? Because its effect is broken regardless of the cost. For another telling example of this Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain. Now Bargain costs twice as much as Necro for an only slightly enhanced effect, but both are similarly broken because paying 1 life to draw a card as much as you want is simply good regardless of the price. The brokenness of a card has to do with how good its ability is regardless of price. The power level of a card has to take mana efficiency, synergy, and castability into account as well as how hard it is for the opponent to circumvent. Dream Halls is very broken but it is somewhat symmetric, it is difficult to cast, and even though its ability is brokenly powerful what you can get from that ability is most often less powerful or broken that the ability itself. Just to show the absolute heights of it the most broken card and the most powerful card are not the same, and probably not what you expect. You probably expect that Black Lotus which currently clocks in at over $750 a pop is one of these two. And you would be wrong. It is not even close. The most powerful card is hands down Ancestral Recall. Still an impressive $400 but god is that card obscene. You pay 1 mana and draw 3 cards. And it is blue mana, so it is good mana to boot. Man, is that card ever broken as well. But not as broken as Yawgmoth's Will. Commanding a healthy $10 price tag, it is mack daddy of broken magic cards. Now for the test, explain why!

On another theory note, I am going to explain why life gain in no uncertain terms, sucks. Now, every novice player should read this next line a hundred times until your mind is sufficiently blown. The only important point of life is the last one. It doesn't matter what life you are at, if the opponent is dead, you win.

Of course there are more profound, fundamental weaknesses to life gain as a strategy. First, is the simple one that outside of very specific cards gaining life doesn't actually win the game. But a much bigger and broader problem exists. Lets say that the opponent plays a burn spell to do 3 damage to you and then you gain 3 life. It seems like you undid his turn and got yourself a Time Walk. But in reality you didn't. This is because of two things. First, symmetry. Even though you undid his turn, he still got to draw his card, play his land, and do anything else his turn got him. Secondly, even though you invalidated his play he was still going to do it, you haven't actually affected his strategy. He was going to spend that mana and that spell to burn you anyways. So you actually wasted mana and a spell to undo his play he was going to do anyways. You haven't gained anything. Just kept parity. But because of the first point, that he got to play a land and draw a card, you have probably actually lost tempo. So, you have gained no real card advantage, no advantage in board position, and lost tempo. Thus, you are behind. And every subsequent time you do this you will get further behind. Now sometimes this can be OK because you are playing against a deck like Mono-Red Burn, which is trading off tempo and card advantage faster than you. By stopping them from winning you will eventually make them be so far behind that they can't win. But if you are playing something like Aggro-control or midrange you are actually just giving them more and more advantage with which to beat you. In the end, all you are doing is surviving while they get to continue to build better and better ways to beat you. Its a race you nearly always lose.

[Norade]

Again ignoring where I said my deck could be beaten... As for superior cards sure, I could go for them, but if I win already why bother? It's not like I can't do a search and make my deck better as needed. Besides, in case you didn't notice outside of the decks trick it is a life gain deck and I have cards fitting that theme.

Again with the passive-aggressive bullshit. "If my deck wins why make it better?" What kind of stupidity is this? I'll get to the life gain thing later, suffice to say, it isn't actually a strategy (you can't win with it) its a tactic... and a poor one at that.

Again you assume that I don't know that life gain doesn't win you the game and that I didn't know it was a poor tactic. Life doesn't save me from poison counters, being decked, and other decks having cards that declare a winner. It also doesn't kill anybody, if you need the life you just gained then your deck is slow, if your deck is fast then you didn't need the life.

Sorry those two formats restrict cards, but those cards are banned in nearly all other formats. I also don't care about overall power level per block, a deck built without restrictions would likely play with the vast majority of its cards having been printed before 4th edition hit. Per card, the earlier additions had the best of cards and the worst of cards. I'd also bet that there are still same great cards in Fallen Empires even if the set sucks.

So a question:

If you could build a deck with no restrictions, would, or would not, nearly your entire deck come from the first 4 sets?

Type 1 is vintage and is the only format that restricts things. Seriously, learn the way the fucking formats work before you try and pretend to be knowledgeable. And seriously, look up Fallen Empires. It blows. It has Hymn to Tourach and pump-knights and that's it. Other than Hymn everything else in the set can be found better someplace newer. The fact that you try to pretend that Fallen Empires has something broken to offer is another showing of your pathetic bluffs. I'll get to the broken card thing is a bit.

Nice blatant lies, Type 2 currently has two cards listed as banned, and it restricts you from any block not listed. I guess it's too hard to do this without lying though...

Also, way to ignore my question.

As for broken, maybe I should be saying powerful, because I'm using the term in the sense that my D&D group does.

An example of use would be, "Damn, Pun-Pun breaks the game." So when I say broken I mean game breakingly powerful, not that the mechanics literally don't work.

I made a mistake in how Aura's worked because it hasn't come up much for me yet. Realizing that it made me think my deck was a bit weaker than I thought it was. I was going to look at instants that are extended legal that can put out the same power increase and would have been doing this if that time wasn't wasted on telling you to fuck off. You claim that I'm not showing that I learn anything, yet when I ask you anything you just say fuck off newb your deck sucks.

How auras work is not an esoteric part of the game, its basic fucking rules. Its like saying "I'm good at chess but I don't really know how those horsey pieces move." The fact that you try to brush it off shows how much of a bullshitting novice you are. You said you were going to look for other creature pumpers, how about some better advice, play better fucking creatures that you don't have to pump to be good. Your playing black and white, you have a gaggle of knights that all kick ass and don't need to be pumped to be decent. You aren't trying to learn. Every change suggested has been met by a callous dismissal on your part and even when I told you two cards that would instantly improve your deck you made some bullshit excuse. The reason why I am telling you that you are a newb and your deck sucks is because you are a newb and your deck sucks. Why can't you get this through your thick fucking skull. So what? Everyone starts out as a terrible player who plays shitty decks. The way you get better is by realizing you are a terrible player who plays a shitty deck and asking "How do I get better and build a better deck." You have a bunch of people on this board who are better players who build better decks and yet you have steadfastly refused any advice so far. Which makes me think you either don't realize how shitty your deck is and how much of a newb you are or that you are conceited enough to actually think you are better than us.

Yes, though I said that after a moment of thought I realized that I'd made a mistake. It was late and it was an honest mistake as opposed to a lack of understanding. More akin to a game of chess I saw where the king and queen's positions were switched to start and it wasn't noticed until a player went to castle. They knew how the board should look, but everybody knew that it was wrong after a second look.

You know what, the rest of this is try hard chest thumping and claims that you know shit about me that you clearly don't. Go fuck yourself and enjoy your over priced $4000 deck.

Yes, however if broken cards are introduced they will still be able to break the game. So in Urza's set a ton came in at once at it was proven to be ridiculous. Which decks in standard have come close to that memory Jar if each set keeps getting better? You made the claim that newer was better than older so back it up.

Ok, I am going to try to put a little theory into your head. Broken does not equal powerful. Now, this seems counter-intuitive at first. Luckily, Stronghold printed a card that is perfect for illustrating this. Dream Halls. Now, Dream Halls is broken. I would even go so far as to say it is very broken. But it isn't very good. Huh? you say. How can a card be broken but not good. Its because some abilities are good regardless of the price. For a more modern example take Cruel Ultimatum. Despite costing sideways 8 mana it is still a good card. Why? Because its effect is broken regardless of the cost. For another telling example of this Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain. Now Bargain costs twice as much as Necro for an only slightly enhanced effect, but both are similarly broken because paying 1 life to draw a card as much as you want is simply good regardless of the price. The brokenness of a card has to do with how good its ability is regardless of price. The power level of a card has to take mana efficiency, synergy, and castability into account as well as how hard it is for the opponent to circumvent. Dream Halls is very broken but it is somewhat symmetric, it is difficult to cast, and even though its ability is brokenly powerful what you can get from that ability is most often less powerful or broken that the ability itself. Just to show the absolute heights of it the most broken card and the most powerful card are not the same, and probably not what you expect. You probably expect that Black Lotus which currently clocks in at over $750 a pop is one of these two. And you would be wrong. It is not even close. The most powerful card is hands down Ancestral Recall. Still an impressive $400 but god is that card obscene. You pay 1 mana and draw 3 cards. And it is blue mana, so it is good mana to boot. Man, is that card ever broken as well. But not as broken as Yawgmoth's Will. Commanding a healthy $10 price tag, it is mack daddy of broken magic cards. Now for the test, explain why!

Dream Halls is kept back from true power in part because of its limitations, you can't pay for any x casting cost spells and you can end up with a card disadvantage by using it as you essentially burn two cards for a single effect. Cruel Ultimatum is the shit because it does everything that you could want a card to do, it hurts your opponent, cause him to lose three cards, kills a creature, and nets you cards and life. It does all this for less in terms of mana and in cards needed than the other cards you'd need to cast to get the five effects would.

Necropotence is a poor card because it cuts off an avenue for playing cards from your graveyard and makes discard suck badly for you. It also gets you cards for the end of your turn when you can't play many card types. Yagmoths does none of this and gets you a card right away. That's too fuck obvious.

As for the others Black Lotus is expensive because of how rare it is and because any deck of any color can use it. Ancestral Recall is better because draw power and card advantage are what win games. You can have all the mana you want, but if you can't use it what's the point?

Yagmoth's Will is awesome because it means your graveyard is even easier than usual to get access to and because it is easier to get cards to your graveyard that it is to get them into your hand.

These answers may not be the exact theory answer, but I'm confident that they're close enough.

On another theory note, I am going to explain why life gain in no uncertain terms, sucks. Now, every novice player should read this next line a hundred times until your mind is sufficiently blown. The only important point of life is the last one. It doesn't matter what life you are at, if the opponent is dead, you win.

Wow, I would never have guessed that reducing my opponent to zero life wins me games. No really, I thought I won at 100 or more life... Fuck off you grandstanding prick.

Next you'll tell me that in combat healing in D&D is bad that that using a wand of cure light wounds crafted by an Artificer after the battle is good. Why, because winning the battle at 1 hp and doing so without wasting turns and actions healing is better than winning at full health in more turns with more spells used. When I tell you I know something, it might just be because I do. Hell my example above is better and more concise than your rambling thing below.

Of course there are more profound, fundamental weaknesses to life gain as a strategy. First, is the simple one that outside of very specific cards gaining life doesn't actually win the game. But a much bigger and broader problem exists. Lets say that the opponent plays a burn spell to do 3 damage to you and then you gain 3 life. It seems like you undid his turn and got yourself a Time Walk. But in reality you didn't. This is because of two things. First, symmetry. Even though you undid his turn, he still got to draw his card, play his land, and do anything else his turn got him. Secondly, even though you invalidated his play he was still going to do it, you haven't actually affected his strategy. He was going to spend that mana and that spell to burn you anyways. So you actually wasted mana and a spell to undo his play he was going to do anyways. You haven't gained anything. Just kept parity. But because of the first point, that he got to play a land and draw a card, you have probably actually lost tempo. So, you have gained no real card advantage, no advantage in board position, and lost tempo. Thus, you are behind. And every subsequent time you do this you will get further behind. Now sometimes this can be OK because you are playing against a deck like Mono-Red Burn, which is trading off tempo and card advantage faster than you. By stopping them from winning you will eventually make them be so far behind that they can't win. But if you are playing something like Aggro-control or midrange you are actually just giving them more and more advantage with which to beat you. In the end, all you are doing is surviving while they get to continue to build better and better ways to beat you. Its a race you nearly always lose.

Wow, thank you for telling me shit I already knew. My black and white deck is a theme deck at heart, just because I could ditch the theme and make it better doesn't mean I will. It wins as it is and keeps theme, I have fun, I win. My original question was more to see how to make my deck better at multi and I got my answers, I don't have the cards to do it yet. But eventually I will make a nice multi black and white deck.

[Norade]

After a PM message and some reading, I'm going to just concede that I don't know as much as I thought I did and drop this. I'd have much more fun building decks and looking at cards than banging out rebutals and making less than fully fleshed out counter points anyway.

[Terralthra]

Well, atleast Norade's still got the spirit! Can't argue that he doesn't. I personally, will buy this one optimal deck, my zombies, and from this point on just collect and archive my cards, keeping libraries of deck builds all wrote up.

On a separate note, to help keep the thread alive, anyone want to share some stories of their best or worst defeat or victory?

My favorite deck back in Onslaught-era type 2 (both odyssey/onslaught and onslaught/mirrodin) was Zombie Bidding. I had splashed into blue (using fetchlands) for Read the Runes to dump a bunch of zombies into my graveyard early. On one occasion, I was playing someone with a stupid Phage deck. For one reason or another, he had had to discard Phage early. He had Wretch maindecked, so he cleared out most of my graveyard anticipating my Bidding, but was tapped out when I cast it. He names zombie. I name legend (this was before the errata that legend was a supertype). He gives me this WTF look and says, "You don't have any legends...?" I say, "Nope, but you do..."

It took him a second to realize the game was over.

[Norade]

Well, atleast Norade's still got the spirit! Can't argue that he doesn't. I personally, will buy this one optimal deck, my zombies, and from this point on just collect and archive my cards, keeping libraries of deck builds all wrote up.

On a separate note, to help keep the thread alive, anyone want to share some stories of their best or worst defeat or victory?

My favorite deck back in Onslaught-era type 2 (both odyssey/onslaught and onslaught/mirrodin) was Zombie Bidding. I had splashed into blue (using fetchlands) for Read the Runes to dump a bunch of zombies into my graveyard early. On one occasion, I was playing someone with a stupid Phage deck. For one reason or another, he had had to discard Phage early. He had Wretch maindecked, so he cleared out most of my graveyard anticipating my Bidding, but was tapped out when I cast it. He names zombie. I name legend (this was before the errata that legend was a supertype). He gives me this WTF look and says, "You don't have any legends...?" I say, "Nope, but you do..."

It took him a second to realize the game was over.

Oh, that's mean. That's so very, very, mean of you.

[Commander Xillian]

WHEEEE! MIRRODIN IS STARTING BACK UP!

Happy daaays for meeee! Rumor mil, anyone got some info on the one cycle I'll be buying booster packs of as it they were M&M's?

[Narkis]

So, I've been playing Magic semi-competitivelyt since the Invasion block, with a break or two in between. And I'm a Lvl 1 Judge, so if you have any rules or tournament questions, I'm your man.

And info, you say Xillian? Well, we don't know much about it yet. Only that the other two sets in the block will be named "Mirrodin Pure" and "New Phyrexia". Oh, and that Elspeth and Tezzeret will make an appearance.