Forerunners Vs. the Galactic Empire

[Jake]

Uh, we've been debating that most of this effing thread, and in a thread in SLAM called 'Meteor vs. Projectile'. Read those because I'm not going to start all over again. Most importantly, read the thread right below your first one if you want to enter into the debate fresh. And no, the Halo 3 game manual says nothing about mac guns. Also, I'm pretty sure the only books that actually give hard numbers are reach and the encyclopedia.

[Norade]

No, its .4c. I just drove to borders and took a look at the halo encyclopedia. A ship based system fires a 600 tun ferric tungsten round at .4c and an orbital super mac fires a 3000 ton depleted uranium round at .5c. The encyclopedia is newer than the fall of reach so by canon policy it takes precedence. If you want to reconcile the two, the ship from the fall of reach may have just been an older model. Also, they spelled out forty percent, and there was no point or decimal, so no, I didn't overlook one.

Halopedia is wrong about damn near everything it writes about though form descriptions of battles we see in the games, to dates, to firepower numbers. I thought we already went over this.

[Jake]

HALO ENCYCLOPEDIA not halopedia

[Jake]

Also, are you going to answer my post that came right before the new guy?

[Norade]

HALO ENCYCLOPEDIA not halopedia

Yes, both are sources filled with flaws and that clearly don't know what they're talking about.

[Norade]

While we debate about the plausibility of the storm scene in the SLAM forum, I have another plane of attack to discuss here.

While I can't ask you to prove a negative the idea that no thought was ever put into the idea of firing a MAC round at a world through atmosphere at any point between the deployment of practical magnetic accelerators and the scene in question is laughable. Surely the military could see the value in a round that could survive the trip through the atmosphere and penetrate a target as opposed to bursting in the air above the target.

For this path of discussion I will assume that the storm scene is physically possible, and that a laser/heatsink prevents the round traveling at 131 km/sec from disintegrating. What I propose is that they did fire at 131km/sec in the scene, delivering some megaton value of energy. However, I stand by my assumption that they can fire at .4c. Why didn't they do it in the storm, when the survival of all sentient species was at stake? Very simply, they couldn't. The SLAM debate may be ambiguous for 131km/sec, but I think even you would agree that if they fired in atmosphere, at .4c, the round would disintegrate, releasing over a teraton of energy into the atmosphere, laser channel or no. They most they would do is likely destroy themselves. Maybe 131km/sec is the maximum speed they can pull of in atmosphere without destroying the round. This would also explain the fighters. The explosions caused by the fighters in the scene were just as large as the MAC rounds, so they were likely hurling nukes, or at least a shit ton of archer missiles. Remember, the humans have had no previous experience with the forerunner ship, so firing 100+ megatons of MACs and 100+ megatons of missiles is better than nothing, especially if the fate of humanity is at stake. Also, this allows for your assertion that the UNSC would have atmospheric macs while reconciling the game with the books.

Except that they know that for one, it won't harm a human ship very badly compared to a MAC round, two, it won't harm a Covenant ship, and, three, by this point I'm pretty sure they know that Covenant tech is based off of forerunner tech. It also fits with the flood pod, and the scenes from Halo 2 for a round power scale.

[Jake]

Except that they know that for one, it won't harm a human ship very badly compared to a MAC round, two, it won't harm a Covenant ship, and, three, by this point I'm pretty sure they know that Covenant tech is based off of forerunner tech. It also fits with the flood pod, and the scenes from Halo 2 for a round power scale.

As I said, its better than nothing. What else would they do? For all they knew, it might not even be a warship (all the weapons were removed after all) and therefore easier to destroy. Also, you know my stance on the flood pod and I'm not going back to Halo 2 until we are done with this scene.

[Norade]

Except that they know that for one, it won't harm a human ship very badly compared to a MAC round, two, it won't harm a Covenant ship, and, three, by this point I'm pretty sure they know that Covenant tech is based off of forerunner tech. It also fits with the flood pod, and the scenes from Halo 2 for a round power scale.

As I said, its better than nothing. What else would they do? For all they knew, it might not even be a warship (all the weapons were removed after all) and therefore easier to destroy. Also, you know my stance on the flood pod and I'm not going back to Halo 2 until we are done with this scene.

Your stance on the flood pod, you mean the one that you have no evidence to support? Bullshit. Until you can find me a source stating that the shields were down you have not a lick of proof that they weren't up.

As for what you do, you punch the engines and fire full power at point blank range with every ship you have. Losing a few ships is better than letting a ring fire.

[Jake]

Your stance on the flood pod, you mean the one that you have no evidence to support? Bullshit. Until you can find me a source stating that the shields were down you have not a lick of proof that they weren't up.

Likewise, you find me a source that they were up. At least my idea is the logical one, considering they would have been the primary target in a battle where they were outnumbered 3:1.

As for what you do, you punch the engines and fire full power at point blank range with every ship you have. Losing a few ships is better than letting a ring fire.

They were punching it, but it fired before they got there.

[Jake]

Also if you look at a picture of a mac barrel, its open to the air.

[Jake]

When I say they were punching it and wouldn't have made it, we see in the scene that the lenghth of a frigate (478m) takes about 2 seconds to pass over MC's head, so its moving at about 239m/s (534mph, pretty fast for a giant non-aerodynamic rectangle). At that rate, it would take it 274 seconds to reach point blank range, and considering the entire scene takes 135sec, this wouldn't work out too well. Also, they would have realized this because the weapon was visibly preparing to fire.

[Icehawk]

Uh, we've been debating that most of this effing thread, and in a thread in SLAM called 'Meteor vs. Projectile'. Read those because I'm not going to start all over again. Most importantly, read the thread right below your first one if you want to enter into the debate fresh. And no, the Halo 3 game manual says nothing about mac guns. Also, I'm pretty sure the only books that actually give hard numbers are reach and the encyclopedia.

Sorry, wasnt the game manual but it was in "Conversations From the Universe" booklet which came with Halo 2 actually. As part of a ship to ship transmission on a recovered Black Box of a covanent vessel the damage control mentions "Solid projectiles closing at 18 kilometers per second. Their trajectory will take them through the engineering and drive section...Brace for impact!"

[Norade]

Your stance on the flood pod, you mean the one that you have no evidence to support? Bullshit. Until you can find me a source stating that the shields were down you have not a lick of proof that they weren't up.

Likewise, you find me a source that they were up. At least my idea is the logical one, considering they would have been the primary target in a battle where they were outnumbered 3:1.

Default assumption for a Covenant ship in a combat zone is shields would be up. You have no source showing they were down thus they must be assumed to be up.

As for what you do, you punch the engines and fire full power at point blank range with every ship you have. Losing a few ships is better than letting a ring fire.

They were punching it, but it fired before they got there.

If that was punching it than UNSC ship's move like a beached whale.

Also if you look at a picture of a mac barrel, its open to the air.

Huh?

When I say they were punching it and wouldn't have made it, we see in the scene that the lenghth of a frigate (478m) takes about 2 seconds to pass over MC's head, so its moving at about 239m/s (534mph, pretty fast for a giant non-aerodynamic rectangle). At that rate, it would take it 274 seconds to reach point blank range, and considering the entire scene takes 135sec, this wouldn't work out too well. Also, they would have realized this because the weapon was visibly preparing to fire.

First, wouldn't a single post work just as well next time?

Second, in other universes we get not aerodynamic Y-Wings going from Yavin to the DS in minutes so that doesn't really impress me much. We also notice that the UNSC ships aren't accelerating yet if they had enough energy to power a MAC gun for a 0.4c shot they could have been pushing harder. Thanks for proving my points again.

[Jake]

Default assumption for a Covenant ship in a combat zone is shields would be up. You have no source showing they were down thus they must be assumed to be up.

They’re outnumbered 3 to 1 by a technologically comparable enemy and the default assumption is that their shields stay up because…. you say so? If you had any knowledge of basic probability, you would realize that given the conditions, they would have a large chance of being destroyed and an even larger chance that their shields would at least be down.

If that was punching it than UNSC ship's move like a beached whale.

Second, in other universes we get not aerodynamic Y-Wings going from Yavin to the DS in minutes so that doesn't really impress me much. We also notice that the UNSC ships aren't accelerating yet if they had enough energy to power a MAC gun for a 0.4c shot they could have been pushing harder. Thanks for proving my points again.

Something that’s longer than 5 football fields, almost as wide as two, and as tall as a 34 story building ( a small skyscraper) moving as fast as a commercial jet is pretty damn Impressive. As for your Y wing, most of its trip was in space, where it can go faster without worrying about atmosphere. Also, it would take almost 30 Y wings lined up end to end to match the length, almost 10 to match the width, and seven to match the height. Multiply these together and you can fit 2100 Y wings inside a UNSC frigate. There’s obviously a difference here. However, I assume that the frigate would have to be at least capable of reaching escape velocity, which is 11.2 km/sec. This wouldn’t matter though, because I said before that the MAC cannon is open to the air, so even at point blank range you would fire a .4c round, moving against air traveling at 11.2km/sec. The round would most likely would disintegrate way before leaving the cannon and destroy the ship, so being at point blank range wouldn’t really matter. On the plus side, the scene would have looked awesome if this happened.

[Jake]

Icehawk, I have halo 2 and I never saw what you mentioned. However, its probably in the media part of canon which means, once again, its superseded by the more recent encyclopedia.

[Norade]

Default assumption for a Covenant ship in a combat zone is shields would be up. You have no source showing they were down thus they must be assumed to be up.

They’re outnumbered 3 to 1 by a technologically comparable enemy and the default assumption is that their shields stay up because…. you say so? If you had any knowledge of basic probability, you would realize that given the conditions, they would have a large chance of being destroyed and an even larger chance that their shields would at least be down.

I'm sorry, but I'd be willing to bet that I can find battles in real life where a force was outnumbered by 3 to 1 and their flagship survived in good order. I can't prove that the flagship wasn't hit so you have to prove that it was, and that it was hit hard enough to take its shields offline. All your bullshit about probability proves nothing and you know it. Prove that it was hit as badly as you say it was in that battle or shut the fuck up.

If that was punching it than UNSC ship's move like a beached whale.

Second, in other universes we get not aerodynamic Y-Wings going from Yavin to the DS in minutes so that doesn't really impress me much. We also notice that the UNSC ships aren't accelerating yet if they had enough energy to power a MAC gun for a 0.4c shot they could have been pushing harder. Thanks for proving my points again.

Something that’s longer than 5 football fields, almost as wide as two, and as tall as a 34 story building ( a small skyscraper) moving as fast as a commercial jet is pretty damn Impressive. As for your Y wing, most of its trip was in space, where it can go faster without worrying about atmosphere. Also, it would take almost 30 Y wings lined up end to end to match the length, almost 10 to match the width, and seven to match the height. Multiply these together and you can fit 2100 Y wings inside a UNSC frigate. There’s obviously a difference here. However, I assume that the frigate would have to be at least capable of reaching escape velocity, which is 11.2 km/sec. This wouldn’t matter though, because I said before that the MAC cannon is open to the air, so even at point blank range you would fire a .4c round, moving against air traveling at 11.2km/sec. The round would most likely would disintegrate way before leaving the cannon and destroy the ship, so being at point blank range wouldn’t really matter. On the plus side, the scene would have looked awesome if this happened.

Then I guess I should bring up Imperial-class and Victory-class vessels being able to do the same and each of those mass higher than a shitty little Halo frigate. Not to mention that moving at escape velocity that Frigate would have done more than 500 times more damage than the estimated yield of the shots we see. It would also have crossed the gap in less than six seconds meaning that it had time to do so. Thus either UNSC ship captains are pussies, they thought that a low yield shot would deal damage, or they simply can't fire anything with a better yield. In any case that is pathetic.

[Jake]

I'm sorry, but I'd be willing to bet that I can find battles in real life where a force was outnumbered by 3 to 1 and their flagship survived in good order.

I bet there are more battles in real life where there flagship did not survive in good order.

I can't prove that the flagship wasn't hit so you have to prove that it was, and that it was hit hard enough to take its shields offline.

What???? Your saying that because you can't prove your argument I have to prove mine?

All your bullshit about probability proves nothing and you know it. Prove that it was hit as badly as you say it was in that battle or shut the fuck up.

Actually it does, that's the point of probability. With your logic we can't use probability to say that if you have a bag full of 9 blue marbles and one red one, you would most likely draw a blue one. Ask any mathematician ( or 5th grader for that matter) and they will all agree with me. For the ships, assuming three comparable ships against the shadow of intent, and knowing that the intent wins in the end, we have outcomes of the following:
Ship A misses, Ship B misses, Ship C misses
Ship A hits, Ship B misses, Ship C misses
Ship A hits, Ship B hits, Ship C misses.....
Counting all of these, we have 8 outcomes. For simplicity we will assume that the ships are only firing energy projectors (if they are firing other stuff it wouldn't matter anyway because we assume the ships are equal to each other). We also know that a ship can barely survive two hits, and 3 is a kill. This removes 1 outcome (if all three ships would have hit the intent would be dead). So, out of 7, we have 1 outcome where the intent does not lose shields, 6 outcomes where is does lose shields, and 3 outcomes where it loses shields and most plating. Therefore, coming out of this fight we have an 85.7% chance that the Shadow of Intent loses shields, a 42.9% chance it loses shields and most armor, and 14.3% chance that it takes no damage. With no other information given, the shadow of intent most likely lost its shields.

[Jake]

I will answer your other stuff later, for now I'm going to bed.

[Norade]

I'm sorry, but I'd be willing to bet that I can find battles in real life where a force was outnumbered by 3 to 1 and their flagship survived in good order.

I bet there are more battles in real life where there flagship did not survive in good order.

I irrelevant, the possibility exists so you need to prove that it was damaged using actual evidence of it taking hits.

I can't prove that the flagship wasn't hit so you have to prove that it was, and that it was hit hard enough to take its shields offline.

What???? Your saying that because you can't prove your argument I have to prove mine?

No, I just can't prove a negative you dumb ass. I can't be asked to prove that not a single shot hit the ship at any point in that battle so the burden of proof is on you to show that it was for sure, not just probably, damaged in the battle.

All your bullshit about probability proves nothing and you know it. Prove that it was hit as badly as you say it was in that battle or shut the fuck up.

Actually it does, that's the point of probability. With your logic we can't use probability to say that if you have a bag full of 9 blue marbles and one red one, you would most likely draw a blue one. Ask any mathematician ( or 5th grader for that matter) and they will all agree with me. For the ships, assuming three comparable ships against the shadow of intent, and knowing that the intent wins in the end, we have outcomes of the following:
Ship A misses, Ship B misses, Ship C misses
Ship A hits, Ship B misses, Ship C misses
Ship A hits, Ship B hits, Ship C misses.....
Counting all of these, we have 8 outcomes. For simplicity we will assume that the ships are only firing energy projectors (if they are firing other stuff it wouldn't matter anyway because we assume the ships are equal to each other). We also know that a ship can barely survive two hits, and 3 is a kill. This removes 1 outcome (if all three ships would have hit the intent would be dead). So, out of 7, we have 1 outcome where the intent does not lose shields, 6 outcomes where is does lose shields, and 3 outcomes where it loses shields and most plating. Therefore, coming out of this fight we have an 85.7% chance that the Shadow of Intent loses shields, a 42.9% chance it loses shields and most armor, and 14.3% chance that it takes no damage. With no other information given, the shadow of intent most likely lost its shields.

Except that in this debate it may have been unscathed and you have no evidence what so ever to show that, without a doubt, the shields were down. If you did we wouldn't be playing math games.

[Jake]

Then I guess I should bring up Imperial-class and Victory-class vessels being able to do the same and each of those mass higher than a shitty little Halo frigate.

Why should I give a shit? This has nothing to do with the current debate.

Not to mention that moving at escape velocity that Frigate would have done more than 500 times more damage than the estimated yield of the shots we see.

No, it wouldn't have. A UNSC frigate, assuming its a rectangle, will have a volume of 8153900.86m^3. We also know that it has .6m of titanium armor, so the inner part of the ship will have a volume of 7982952.735m^3. This gives us a total volume of 170948.124m^3. The density of titanium is 4506kg/m^3, so the ship will have a mass of 770,292,246.7 kg.The mass of the stuff in the inner part of the ship should be negligible compared to this, so I will assume its hollow, with three exceptions. The first is the ftl drive. There's a picture of one here: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Shaw-Fujikaw ... ght_Engine, and from it we can use the height of the person (average person is 1.7m) and the fact that the transport's wheel is about the size of the person to get a mass estimate of 88,551.912 kg (assuming pure titanium, which is super generous for obvious reasons). The second is the ship's fusion reactor. We don't really have a good picture to estimate the size of a human one, but there's a covenant one here:http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Pinch_Fusion_Reactor. We can't really determine the height, so I will say it is as high as the ship is tall, a maximum estimate. We see that the diameter is roughly 1/4 the height, and assuming that it is covered in a titanium shell similar to the rest of the ship(although the covenant one isn't so we might have a much lighter version than my calc), we have a 54,068,010.54kg reactor. The third are the MAC rounds. At 600,000kg each, and assuming 20 rounds, their total mass is 12,000,000kg. Adding these up we get a mass of 836448809.2kg for the ship. Using the kinetic energy formula at 11,200m/s, we get a kinetic energy of 5.246E16 J. This means it only delivers about 10X as much energy as the round (5.1483E15 J), for a very high end estimate of the mass (I'm assuming everything is titanium). However, its the power that is delivered that really matters. For a .65m length round (your tungsten carbide estimate) traveling at 131,000m/sec, the time to deliver the energy is roughly 4.962E-6 sec, leading to 1.038E21 Watts of power. For a 478m long frigate moving at 11,200km/sec, the time to deliver the energy is roughly .04268sec, leading to a power of 1.229E18 watts. So, the round is actually about 845X more powerful than a kamikaze attack. Take a seat.

No, I just can't prove a negative you dumb ass. I can't be asked to prove that not a single shot hit the ship at any point in that battle so the burden of proof is on you to show that it was for sure, not just probably, damaged in the battle.

I just proved there was an 85% chance its shields were down. If we have to make an assumption, than I'm going to go with the one that's 85% likely.

Except that in this debate it may have been unscathed and you have no evidence what so ever to show that, without a doubt, the shields were down. If you did we wouldn't be playing math games.

Have you ever taken statistical thermodynamics? Its these math games that prove your book won't fall up when you drop it or that you won't walk through a wall. Or have you ever watched the weather? Its these math games that predict whether it will rain or not. Or do you know why counting cards is so effective its considered cheating? Yep, same math games, or as most intelligent people call it, the laws of probability.

[Norade]

Then I guess I should bring up Imperial-class and Victory-class vessels being able to do the same and each of those mass higher than a shitty little Halo frigate.

Why should I give a shit? This has nothing to do with the current debate.

Umm, Galactic Empire is in the thread title. If they can't preform similar feats then they lose.

Not to mention that moving at escape velocity that Frigate would have done more than 500 times more damage than the estimated yield of the shots we see.

No, it wouldn't have. A UNSC frigate, assuming its a rectangle, will have a volume of 8153900.86m^3. We also know that it has .6m of titanium armor, so the inner part of the ship will have a volume of 7982952.735m^3. This gives us a total volume of 170948.124m^3. The density of titanium is 4506kg/m^3, so the ship will have a mass of 770,292,246.7 kg.The mass of the stuff in the inner part of the ship should be negligible compared to this, so I will assume its hollow, with three exceptions. The first is the ftl drive. There's a picture of one here: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Shaw-Fujikaw ... ght_Engine, and from it we can use the height of the person (average person is 1.7m) and the fact that the transport's wheel is about the size of the person to get a mass estimate of 88,551.912 kg (assuming pure titanium, which is super generous for obvious reasons). The second is the ship's fusion reactor. We don't really have a good picture to estimate the size of a human one, but there's a covenant one here:http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Pinch_Fusion_Reactor. We can't really determine the height, so I will say it is as high as the ship is tall, a maximum estimate. We see that the diameter is roughly 1/4 the height, and assuming that it is covered in a titanium shell similar to the rest of the ship(although the covenant one isn't so we might have a much lighter version than my calc), we have a 54,068,010.54kg reactor. The third are the MAC rounds. At 600,000kg each, and assuming 20 rounds, their total mass is 12,000,000kg. Adding these up we get a mass of 836448809.2kg for the ship. Using the kinetic energy formula at 11,200m/s, we get a kinetic energy of 5.246E16 J. This means it only delivers about 10X as much energy as the round (5.1483E15 J), for a very high end estimate of the mass (I'm assuming everything is titanium). However, its the power that is delivered that really matters. For a .65m length round (your tungsten carbide estimate) traveling at 131,000m/sec, the time to deliver the energy is roughly 4.962E-6 sec, leading to 1.038E21 Watts of power. For a 478m long frigate moving at 11,200km/sec, the time to deliver the energy is roughly .04268sec, leading to a power of 1.229E18 watts. So, the round is actually about 845X more powerful than a kamikaze attack. Take a seat.

You're being pretty light for ship weight in saying that it masses only 770,000 tons. You forget internal deck weight, water, coolant, engine propellant and due to this I refuse to use you number as you fuck the weight of the ship so badly. Not to mention that the Yamato scaled up to the same size would be closer to 8,500,000 tons. Now cutting that back for the density difference between Iron/Steel and Titanium we get a mass of 4,800,000 tons. This rough scaling shows that you're full of shit.

Using 4,800,000 tons we get 3.057E+17J or 73 megatons which is, if we use the 1.2 megaton number from before so 60 times more energy. Not to mention 11.2km/s is a lower end for speed so if we say multiply that by 1.5x, slow by scifi standards we get, 164 megatons or 136 times more. If teh ship is heavier as we might expect that only goes up.

No, I just can't prove a negative you dumb ass. I can't be asked to prove that not a single shot hit the ship at any point in that battle so the burden of proof is on you to show that it was for sure, not just probably, damaged in the battle.

I just proved there was an 85% chance its shields were down. If we have to make an assumption, than I'm going to go with the one that's 85% likely.

No, you proved that you can use whatever numbers you like but can't actually debate my point. Provide hard proof that the shields are down, 100% certainty or I'm not accepting your math.

Except that in this debate it may have been unscathed and you have no evidence what so ever to show that, without a doubt, the shields were down. If you did we wouldn't be playing math games.

Have you ever taken statistical thermodynamics? Its these math games that prove your book won't fall up when you drop it or that you won't walk through a wall. Or have you ever watched the weather? Its these math games that predict whether it will rain or not. Or do you know why counting cards is so effective its considered cheating? Yep, same math games, or as most intelligent people call it, the laws of probability.

How do these math games effect the debate where the outcome is either 1 or 0. It proves something is likely, not that it happened. I'm asking you to prove it happened, not that it could have happened.

[Jake]

Umm, Galactic Empire is in the thread title. If they can't preform similar feats then they lose.

Galactic Empire vs. Forerunners buddy. The speed of a UNSC ship in atmosphere doesn't really matter in this thread.

You're being pretty light for ship weight in saying that it masses only 770,000 tons. You forget internal deck weight, water, coolant, engine propellant and due to this I refuse to use you number as you fuck the weight of the ship so badly. Not to mention that the Yamato scaled up to the same size would be closer to 8,500,000 tons. Now cutting that back for the density difference between Iron/Steel and Titanium we get a mass of 4,800,000 tons. This rough scaling shows that you're full of shit.

Using 4,800,000 tons we get 3.057E+17J or 73 megatons which is, if we use the 1.2 megaton number from before so 60 times more energy. Not to mention 11.2km/s is a lower end for speed so if we say multiply that by 1.5x, slow by scifi standards we get, 164 megatons or 136 times more. If teh ship is heavier as we might expect that only goes up.

Wait a second. Your trying to scale a 26th century spaceship from a fucking WORLD WAR TWO NAVAL BATTLESHIP???? Are you out of your mind? That's like me saying I'm going to estimate the mass of Apollo 13 by using a Spanish Galleon. Even with your random estimation, the MAC round still puts out 145X as much power as a kamikaze ship, and power is what matters.

No, you proved that you can use whatever numbers you like but can't actually debate my point. Provide hard proof that the shields are down, 100% certainty or I'm not accepting your math.

I see that I am talking to a wall here. I have given you one piece of evidence (3 to 1 odds) and supporting math to support my idea, and what have you given me to support yours?

How do these math games effect the debate where the outcome is either 1 or 0. It proves something is likely, not that it happened. I'm asking you to prove it happened, not that it could have happened.

Because the probability of 1 is 85% and the probability of 0 is 15%. If something is more likely than something else, and you have no other information, you assume what is likely. If you had a basketball player who made 85% of his shots and one who made 15% of his shots, who would you choose?

[Norade]

Umm, Galactic Empire is in the thread title. If they can't preform similar feats then they lose.

Galactic Empire vs. Forerunners buddy. The speed of a UNSC ship in atmosphere doesn't really matter in this thread.

Except that I'm using these scenes to scale firepower used on a known Covenant vessel by Forerunner combat drones. I'm also using these scenes to show that the Halo Encylopedia is wrong. I guess needing a point of reference is lost on you though.

You're being pretty light for ship weight in saying that it masses only 770,000 tons. You forget internal deck weight, water, coolant, engine propellant and due to this I refuse to use you number as you fuck the weight of the ship so badly. Not to mention that the Yamato scaled up to the same size would be closer to 8,500,000 tons. Now cutting that back for the density difference between Iron/Steel and Titanium we get a mass of 4,800,000 tons. This rough scaling shows that you're full of shit.

Using 4,800,000 tons we get 3.057E+17J or 73 megatons which is, if we use the 1.2 megaton number from before so 60 times more energy. Not to mention 11.2km/s is a lower end for speed so if we say multiply that by 1.5x, slow by scifi standards we get, 164 megatons or 136 times more. If teh ship is heavier as we might expect that only goes up.

Wait a second. Your trying to scale a 26th century spaceship from a fucking WORLD WAR TWO NAVAL BATTLESHIP???? Are you out of your mind? That's like me saying I'm going to estimate the mass of Apollo 13 by using a Spanish Galleon. Even with your random estimation, the MAC round still puts out 145X as much power as a kamikaze ship, and power is what matters.

It's better than your method where by you use no reasoning and calculate the mass of an empty titanium box. Not to mention the fact that a UNSC vessel is made of metal. Actually, my numbers were low as I was thinking that I had to convert my numbers.

To avoid any math errors I will show my reason and math here.

The Yamato's stats are:
Mass: 71,000 tons Standard
Length: 256m
Beam: 38.9m
Draft: 10.4m

The UNSC frigate's stats are:
Mass: ???
Length: 478m
Beam: 151.9m
Draft: 112.3m

By these stats the Yamato, in an assumed brick shape, has 78.7 times less volume than the frigate that means we must multiply that by 8 as mass increases by 8 times for each doubling in volume. So we get a mass of 629.6 times that of the Yamato which is 44,701,600 tons. Reducing that by 50% for a lighter material and better weight saving techniques we get a mass of 2.2 million tons. That is far more than your claimed 770,000 tons.

Moving at 11.2km/s it impacts with a force of 1.380E+17J or 33 Megatons. Moving at 16.8km/s that increases to a total of 74 megatons. As seen later in the game a Covenant vessel will be penetrated hull t hull by 36 megatons so this could be assumed to be enough to kill the Forerunner ship.

As for your figures from MAC round energies, we have at best proof for a 0.04c shot that can't be overwritten by a poorly done and flat out incorrect encyclopedia. Thus by that calculation the maximum energy imparted by a ship fired MAC round is only 10.3 gigatons so that means using the highest end numbers that a Covenant ship will have shields downed by ~20.6 gigatons. If we assume that the flood pod scene was unshielded it then only takes a further 40 megatons to hull such a ship.

That is weak by GE standards. The forerunners would need to be 100x better than that to stand a chance against an ISD. Yet their drones don't show that level of power at all.

No, you proved that you can use whatever numbers you like but can't actually debate my point. Provide hard proof that the shields are down, 100% certainty or I'm not accepting your math.

I see that I am talking to a wall here. I have given you one piece of evidence (3 to 1 odds) and supporting math to support my idea, and what have you given me to support yours?

I can't prove it wasn't hit moron. There isn't enough evidence to say that. Thus you need to prove that it was hit. Not just that it is probable that it was hit.

How do these math games effect the debate where the outcome is either 1 or 0. It proves something is likely, not that it happened. I'm asking you to prove it happened, not that it could have happened.

Because the probability of 1 is 85% and the probability of 0 is 15%. If something is more likely than something else, and you have no other information, you assume what is likely. If you had a basketball player who made 85% of his shots and one who made 15% of his shots, who would you choose?

That's a false choice, I'm asking for 100% proof not odds.

Anyway, as shown above it doesn't matter anyway as we have evidence for 0.04c MAC guns from our best book source.

[Jake]

Except that I'm using these scenes to scale firepower used on a known Covenant vessel by Forerunner combat drones. I'm also using these scenes to show that the Halo Encylopedia is wrong. I guess needing a point of reference is lost on you though.

What does UNSC vs. Empire capital ship atmospheric velocities have to do with this?

It's better than your method where by you use no reasoning and calculate the mass of an empty titanium box. Not to mention the fact that a UNSC vessel is made of metal. Actually, my numbers were low as I was thinking that I had to convert my numbers.

To avoid any math errors I will show my reason and math here.

The Yamato's stats are:
Mass: 71,000 tons Standard
Length: 256m
Beam: 38.9m
Draft: 10.4m

The UNSC frigate's stats are:
Mass: ???
Length: 478m
Beam: 151.9m
Draft: 112.3m

By these stats the Yamato, in an assumed brick shape, has 78.7 times less volume than the frigate that means we must multiply that by 8 as mass increases by 8 times for each doubling in volume. So we get a mass of 629.6 times that of the Yamato which is 44,701,600 tons. Reducing that by 50% for a lighter material and better weight saving techniques we get a mass of 2.2 million tons. That is far more than your claimed 770,000 tons.

Moving at 11.2km/s it impacts with a force of 1.380E+17J or 33 Megatons. Moving at 16.8km/s that increases to a total of 74 megatons. As seen later in the game a Covenant vessel will be penetrated hull t hull by 36 megatons so this could be assumed to be enough to kill the Forerunner ship.

I think were looking at this the wrong way. I kind of screwed up when I said it could be going at 11.2km/sec. This is the space shuttle's re entry speed, but this is definitely not the space shuttle. The melting point of titanium is 1998K. Using the Stephan Boltzmann equation and the drag equation mentioned by Feil in the SLAM thread, I found that to keep the hull at this temperature, our frigate can go a maximum of 112.76 m/s. This actually makes sense considering the thing is roughly the size of Liberty Island in New York (aka it is huge). My initial velocity estimate was 239m/s, which would be really punching it, but maybe they use some futuristic titanium alloy which increases the melting point or mix ablative heat shielding in the hull etc. The ship would be able to go faster during re-entry, which occurs in the ultra low density thermosphere, but they would most likely still have to go significantly less than 11.2km/sec and decelerate at a huge rate , which is unrealistic today, but considering they have the antigrav technology to make liberty Island float, this may not be as much of an issue for them. In any rate, even if your mass estimates are correct, the energy and power delivered by ramming (even if the ship could make it, which it couldn't) would be significantly lower than that delivered by the MAC rounds.

As for your figures from MAC round energies, we have at best proof for a 0.04c shot that can't be overwritten by a poorly done and flat out incorrect encyclopedia.

Halo canon puts the encyclopedia above the books. Your opinion on the matter doesn't mean shit.

I can't prove it wasn't hit moron. There isn't enough evidence to say that. Thus you need to prove that it was hit. Not just that it is probable that it was hit.

The best you can get out of this argument is neither of us can prove 100% (although, to me at least, 85% is pretty good) the condition of the covenant ship so it can't be used to scale firepower from.

[Norade]

Except that I'm using these scenes to scale firepower used on a known Covenant vessel by Forerunner combat drones. I'm also using these scenes to show that the Halo Encylopedia is wrong. I guess needing a point of reference is lost on you though.

What does UNSC vs. Empire capital ship atmospheric velocities have to do with this

It deals with thrust, sublight speed, power generation, and possibly shield strength.

It's better than your method where by you use no reasoning and calculate the mass of an empty titanium box. Not to mention the fact that a UNSC vessel is made of metal. Actually, my numbers were low as I was thinking that I had to convert my numbers.

To avoid any math errors I will show my reason and math here.

The Yamato's stats are:
Mass: 71,000 tons Standard
Length: 256m
Beam: 38.9m
Draft: 10.4m

The UNSC frigate's stats are:
Mass: ???
Length: 478m
Beam: 151.9m
Draft: 112.3m

By these stats the Yamato, in an assumed brick shape, has 78.7 times less volume than the frigate that means we must multiply that by 8 as mass increases by 8 times for each doubling in volume. So we get a mass of 629.6 times that of the Yamato which is 44,701,600 tons. Reducing that by 50% for a lighter material and better weight saving techniques we get a mass of 2.2 million tons. That is far more than your claimed 770,000 tons.

Moving at 11.2km/s it impacts with a force of 1.380E+17J or 33 Megatons. Moving at 16.8km/s that increases to a total of 74 megatons. As seen later in the game a Covenant vessel will be penetrated hull t hull by 36 megatons so this could be assumed to be enough to kill the Forerunner ship.

I think were looking at this the wrong way. I kind of screwed up when I said it could be going at 11.2km/sec. This is the space shuttle's re entry speed, but this is definitely not the space shuttle. The melting point of titanium is 1998K. Using the Stephan Boltzmann equation and the drag equation mentioned by Feil in the SLAM thread, I found that to keep the hull at this temperature, our frigate can go a maximum of 112.76 m/s. This actually makes sense considering the thing is roughly the size of Liberty Island in New York (aka it is huge). My initial velocity estimate was 239m/s, which would be really punching it, but maybe they use some futuristic titanium alloy which increases the melting point or mix ablative heat shielding in the hull etc. The ship would be able to go faster during re-entry, which occurs in the ultra low density thermosphere, but they would most likely still have to go significantly less than 11.2km/sec and decelerate at a huge rate , which is unrealistic today, but considering they have the antigrav technology to make liberty Island float, this may not be as much of an issue for them. In any rate, even if your mass estimates are correct, the energy and power delivered by ramming (even if the ship could make it, which it couldn't) would be significantly lower than that delivered by the MAC rounds.

Oh, so they suck even worse than we thought then, that's comforting... All that shows is that the Halo universe looses badly to Star Wars in all ways, and not just most.

As for your figures from MAC round energies, we have at best proof for a 0.04c shot that can't be overwritten by a poorly done and flat out incorrect encyclopedia.

Halo canon puts the encyclopedia above the books. Your opinion on the matter doesn't mean shit.

Except that as shown the encyclopedia is wrong on so many counts that it might as well deal with another universe. I would need to get a copy of the book, but if I can find major contradictions with the games then we'd be forced to not use that sources numbers. As it stands the primary source show's us a pathetic power level.

I can't prove it wasn't hit moron. There isn't enough evidence to say that. Thus you need to prove that it was hit. Not just that it is probable that it was hit.

The best you can get out of this argument is neither of us can prove 100% (although, to me at least, 85% is pretty good) the condition of the covenant ship so it can't be used to scale firepower from.

No, you claim 85% based on math that has little bearing on how an actually battle would go. In either case, the hull being penetrated like that shows a weak as shit hull strength for Covenent ships and a UNSC Cruisers hull only being able to take a few thousand degrees of heat is weak as well.