Extremely flawed SW military?

[Norade]

Do it anyway. It could only improve your disposition.

I don't see a rebuttal so I guess jollyretard concedes.

[Norade]

What are you even talking about? Stormtroopers have holsters hanging from their belts for their carbines. Pay some more attention. And their larger weapons have slings. Just like real life. Not only is this complaint ridiculously petty, its also flat wrong, and bizarre given there's no such thing as "rifles attached to the body" in real life.

Wookiepedia (?) stated, that not all have these holsters. Also, I can't remember many guns having slings, but yes, I'll pay more attention. Attached to body -> on your back, with that sling around your shoulder. Maybe not the best term, but I still think it kind of describes what I meant.

So a wiki says something and it is unquestionable fact now?

And really, when you think about it, it seems pretty obvious that if a fuel-laden 747 flies into a Very Tall Building, then the building will fall down; it's just that back in the 90s, nobody ever thought anyone would actually do that.

Weren't the WTC towers designed to withstand this kind of attack? It collapsed because of the heat. Not because of the impact itself (that too, of course, but not solely), because the things were still standing after the impacts.

Designed to do something doesn't always mean will do something, but I guess I shouldn't expect a retard like yourself to understand this. Also, AFAIK, the heat shit is just another conspiracy theory.

And a sufficiently small "bar" isn't going to stop an A-Wing pilot, now is it? Those ships are diminutive and can just go around.

Depends on where and how you install them. Now watch out: How about TWO bars? Oh..... Didn't think of that, did you?

How long does it take to install a multiton bar that you likely don't already have on hand? No add in an opening a closing mechanism. Oh wait, you need to build a structure for that as well... Dumbass.

So now the engineers should be Force users who see the future of what Palpatine wants before he even suggests it. You're just making shit up at this point. We see massive sections of the station independent of the superlaser that are complete. Apparently you think all of that was done between the time Palpatine ordered that it be ready for his trap and the time we first see the Death Star, rather than what was completed prior to Palpatine springing this idea on his engineers.

None of this BS explains why there was no such plan to physically (!) protect the core in the first place, BEFORE Palpatine wanted his superpenislaser activated. Physically, because machinery creating shields and shit might fail for some reason.

But I guess there wasn't even the slightest chance that the rebels could attack this place before Palpatine went nuts. You know, the thing about guerilla warfare, which the rebels mainly rely on if I'm not wrong, is that your enemy doesn't see the next attack coming. I remember what happened the last time some guerilla tactics were successful. Have fun trying to get your bottle of water on an airplane these days But I guess after having an enemy (which is worth searching for, as seen before Hoth) which blew up your most expensive battle station, there's no need to expect another attack when you build another one.

Except you might need access to the core to get it and the super laser online... Perhaps there was more calibration to be done, but at the battle it was good enough and they expected to go in after and finish tuning it. Not to mention the rebels only knew about it because they were supposed to.

DotS would expect your post 9/11 skyscraper buildings to be able to withstand a fuel laden 747 strike on a building that's still only 60% complete. Otherwise the engineers are incompetent.

I would expect the airplane engineers to install a door to the cockpit, which a terrorist cannot break with the shit he finds aboard or is allowed to bring with him, so the 747 doesn't even get the chance to strike my building. Oh wait...... They did that after 9/11..........

Nice backpedal with a side of goalpost shifting. Besides, what if a disgruntled pilot decides to crash his plane into a building? That door sure prevents that right?

Yes, because the engineers knew they would need the extra time, hell for all we know they did build to smaller to meat the deadline so go fuck yourself. Not to mention they may have still needed access to the core, just because it works doesn't mean it works well and a bar means that you can't get your core repair and trouble shooting craft in to makesure the damn thing will still work after the battle.

Okay, so what's the problem with a door then? Or, let's say, bars which you can retract?

See my points above.

You missed the part where it would be shooting turbolasers at the exposed inner hull and the fact that the shield was still up when the Executer smashed into the DSII. Also, what do you need fighters for when you can fire turbolasers into the exposed core? It's not as easy to get a capital ship into position during the battle, but if fighters couldn't do it we know the rebels would have tried.

There are several disadvantages there.

1.) You might lose an important capital ship, while your ships are getting slained already

2.) Even if you ram the DS and actually manage to get the ship let's say a few 100m into the DS at one of these holes... Have fun firing at the exact spots which were ripped open on impact (can we assume the ramming ship gets trashed in the process of ramming, including the turbolasers which are now stuck inside the DS? Or do they have such good shields? Why didn't they kamikaze all the time then during Endor?). Eventually, while you fire for half an hour to get through the kilometers of Death Star which still are between your ship and the core chamber (or the last blast door, bars, whatever), you're a stationary, top priority target for a zillion fighters, bombers, capital ships and a fucking Death Star (if you're lucky enough that you actually have turbolasers in a place to actually fire where you want to, since large parts of your ship are damaged).

It also makes one wonder if those kind of few ships we see in the Endor battle could have really escaped the SD squadron and bombers and fighters there, get back to the DS and start engaging it once the shields were down. At least I can't remember any capital ships firing on the DS after the shield dropped, but we might have just not seen that (I still doubt they had the time doing it). Another question is, if they could really ram a capital ship in there. If so, after the first ram, the imperial forces would shoot the shit out of that piece of ship sticking out of the DS, so it can NOT reach the core by any means. And then they would be aware of the threat and make sure the next capital ship does NOT hit a 'vent' or whatever it was supposed to be. Or at least try, reducing the chance.

Hell, they lost capital ships AFTER they knew the DS was operational and AFTER they lost one by it's superlaser. Either the DS is quite good at aiming and can rotate and move at nice speeds, or these rebel capital ships fly like dead whales. Either thing isn't good if you want to hit a 20m hole with a 1km cruiser.

This was a last ditch attack and losing ships is why it isn't a first choice. However if you can't do the job one way you do whatever you can to make the station fall. Every ship in the rebel fleet was worth less than the DSII. The rebels would have done anything to ensure that station feel even if it meant dying to a man.

In ANH they were used to board a civilian ship, search for droids, and serve as guards for a large installation. That is all guard duty/police work not war fighting so it hardly matters.

In ESB they were part of Vaders own personal task force and had a great showing.

In RotJ they were rear guard for an installation that nobody else was loyal enough to guard.

But because they look like soldiers to you it must be so...

The civilian ship was captured by a warship. ALL these things are things a soldier does too. Plus police forces NEVER have large weaponry. I have NEVER seen a police battle tank or warship in my entire life. And I have pretty much never seen police forces being deployed in large numbers with heavy weaponry and tanks, fighting battles and guarding military stations and ships. Military stuff is guarded by military personnel. And not by police forces. The only waste of space seems to be between your ears, you little dumbfuck.

I might not be entirely sure about this, but I remember dialog about 'a battalion of his best men'. A battalion consists of soldiers.

The thing is a ship in Star Wars is not the same as a civilian surface ship today. This is more like police searching a cargo truck or making a roadside stop. It also ignores the fact that police do enter dangerous situations to capture people. Raids of a drug house spring to mind.

Also Stormtroopers are closer to SS. SS were soldiers, but not of a front line type. They took special missions and guarded top secret installations, Hilter's bunker, deathcamps etc.

I was simply showing that none of those jobs require resources outside of what Stormtroopers provide.

As explained above it was likely that such gaps were needed for ongoing work to the core, after all you can get the core and super laser ready to fire if you can't work on them. Of course retards like you don't think or shit like this...

Yes, I hope that hole never gets sealed for some reason, because that would be the last time they see the core of their own fucking station. Design fail if you can't effectively reach the core without having large holes open to space.

I'm not saying that they can't access it, but it would be easier to do so and they may have needed heavy equipment to get the thing online.

Perhaps they simply didn't have the right camo stored aboard their ships and were waiting for a shipment to arrive. Dumber things have happened in real life.

Makes perfect sense, that you can send hundreds of thousands of people to a battle (the ISD squad at Endor), but fail at bringing your uniforms and even having it replaced after noticing you forgot it. Too bad there's no large space station or a friendly fleet around.

And no, I doubt dumber things have happened than elite soldiers not bringing their equipment or have it brought shortly afterwards.

Canadian soldiers in A-stan were given forest camo in a dessert. It's not smart, but shit happens. Especially for a force that normal fights urban missions or stays aboard ships.

Please show me how they compare in accuracy to real life forces. I fucking dare you.

Are you serious? If you're 20m away from a soldier firing on you, while you run, you'd be most likely kissing the ground within seconds. I'd say it takes less than 5, time needed to lift the rifle and aim included.

Care to prove it? Want to show that no soldier has ever missed at that range? Hell most soldiers IRL won't even fire, and many of those that do in real life don't aim.

As for the armor, other ideas might be that against a technological equal they will spot you anyway so it's a waste of money.

If the enemy has this technological equal. Else you're just stupid.

Ever seen a modern US uniform? Ever wondered why it looks like pixel crap? It's to trick the brain to not recognize your shape. The human shape is a thing that your brain immediately notices very quickly and effectively. That's exactly what I want when I'm in a fight, or member of an elite team, or sent to a forest to surprise some terrorists. What I don't want is idiots seeing me WITHOUT ANY technology from 2km away.

The rebels had access to thermal goggles and other goodies I'm sure so camo may be useless.

Yes, because the rebels had no tech? Right dumbass?

Besides, as noted we know that clone trooper armor can be camouflaged, so what's the problem?

That they didn't do it.

So no camo in one case = Empire must be stupid now? Even though there can be other reasons for them not having it, such as it being needed more elsewhere and the ground soldiers and their commanders not expecting to need it.

Because it's their uniform, and when you are working you wear that uniform at all times? Besides which, considering the purpose of stormtroopers (to help maintain the security of the station, which entails carrying weapons and the possibility of getting into firefights) wearing armor even onboard makes sense. (you know, in case you get shot at.)

Valid argument. But don't confuse uniform with armor, because in real life, these are 2 very different things.

Stormtrooper armor may well be their duty uniform.

How do you know that any trooper who goes down is "dead?" pray?

I assume it, because no one of them gets up afterwards to chase some rebels. And I can't remember a single scene where a Trooper is knocked on his ass, but not totally 'dying' or losing consciousness or whatever they do when lying around. Maybe good opportunity for a nap...?

If you're wearing armor IRL, and I nail you in the chest with an SMG how fast are you getting back up? Also, how long do we stay and watch the downed soldiers? A few seconds at most... Yeah.

General answer: Why are you generalizing about the broad performance of the storm troopers (or the Imperial military in general) from relatively few samples? Are you trying to say that the capabilities and performance (or even training) of a military force is always going to be consistently the same all the time and under every conceivable condition? I find that hard to believe. Incompetence or other negative qualities are not exactly unheard of in military forces, for whatever reason you choose to adopt (politics, inadequate or imperfect training schedules or regimes, etc.)

Because we see them fail very often in the movies. That's why. Not once, not twice...

I don't think the Empire would have inadequate or imperfect training and so on. They're the leading military power, controlling pretty much everything. They should actually have the best trained army ever. They got plenty of people to teach 'Privates', they have plenty of experience and equipment, they should have plenty of space for training, an assload of money and tactics and strategies from more worlds than I have hair on my entire body....

Hint, the US training programs are considered in many cases poor compared to nations such as Canada or Israel. These smaller nations can afford more time and money per soldier so they often end up with a better product.

so the US has completely and totally won and defeated every foe we've run across?

What do you want to tell me there?

He's saying that the US has lost its share of battles, but by your fail logic should have won them all.

Elite by whose word? The Emperor's? Since when is the emperor an unbiased judge of military capability? He orchestrated everything at Endor to suit his whim (which included telling his own naval forces not to attack the rebels. Even, it seems, at the cost of their own lives.)

The Emperor should be enough of a judge of military capability to know if the guys he's sending are elite troops or some Privates who enlisted yesterday.

Care to prove the rank and experience of these soldiers and that it wasn't simply a bad situation for them?

In the town I live we have a bridge that was built across the Missisippi and it has a fucking weird ass curve in it because of such a glaring flaw in design. Yet they didn't start over from scratch despite this glaring flaw because it would cost alot more time and money to fix and it wasn't worth it. Cost Benefit analysis sucks, but such is reality.

I guess that curve doesn't increase the risk of that bridge going down somewhen.

It may, but the risk may be considered too small to build a new bridge over. Ever consider that?

It's easy to say in hindsight what should have been done alot of times, but you either don't think it likely or just don't think about it at all. 9/11 comes to mind.

Actually they expected something like this before 9/11. Also, if you ask me, the Empire seems more threatened by the rebels than the US territory by some bearded assholes.

Yes, but you can't always build everything to withstand the worst case. By that logic we should all stay in bunkers because a meteor could hit an office building.

How do you know those are bombs its dropping?

I'd expect things a BOMBER drops and cause a bang and a short flash on impact are some sort of bombs. Usually these are characteristics of bombs... Being dropped outta bomber...... flash and boom at impact....

We also expect bombs to deal damage when they hit. They could be special pulses to allow for sensors to get a better scan image, or they might be ion charges, or they might be something else entirely. The one thing they aren't is bombs.

[CaptJodan]

To be fair, the lack of camo armor on Endor does seem a bit stupid. The Death Star had been under construction for...what...6 months is it? The shield protecting the DS is a fixed structure probably built prior to the DS's construction being started. This isn't just the Relentless battlegroup dropping some troops on a random world as a patrol force, this is a military outpost that has been established for several months, possibly more. They've certainly had the time to be supplied with camo armor. It's lack is a bit suspect in my view.

[Norade]

To be fair, the lack of camo armor on Endor does seem a bit stupid. The Death Star had been under construction for...what...6 months is it? The shield protecting the DS is a fixed structure probably built prior to the DS's construction being started. This isn't just the Relentless battlegroup dropping some troops on a random world as a patrol force, this is a military outpost that has been established for several months, possibly more. They've certainly had the time to be supplied with camo armor. It's lack is a bit suspect in my view.

Canada fought for more than 6 months in WWI with the Ross rifle, stranger things have happened.

[Connor MacLeod]

That they didn't do it.

So? You're assuming again that "because they have the capability" is the sole governing concern. A real life example where this fails is IED protection in Iraq (to wit: we didn't have it/use it beforehand, but once IEDs started to become an issue they started applying it as time and resources allowed.) Hell, almost anything you can point out in the US military industrial complex can provide an analogous example to Star Wars. You seem to be under this impression that real life = intelligent, when that isn't neccesarily the case.

Valid argument. But don't confuse uniform with armor, because in real life, these are 2 very different things.

red herring, since in the case of stormtroopers the armor and the uniform ARE the same thing, and I never once indicated that uniform = armor in all cases.

I assume it, because no one of them gets up afterwards to chase some rebels. And I can't remember a single scene where a Trooper is knocked on his ass, but not totally 'dying' or losing consciousness or whatever they do when lying around. Maybe good opportunity for a nap...?

Assumption and recollection are not fact. Why should I be expected to take your assumptions as fact or proof, pray tell? Do you have some sort of canonical or real life authority where your can be judged to know such things?

Because we see them fail very often in the movies. That's why. Not once, not twice...

I don't think the Empire would have inadequate or imperfect training and so on. They're the leading military power, controlling pretty much everything. They should actually have the best trained army ever. They got plenty of people to teach 'Privates', they have plenty of experience and equipment, they should have plenty of space for training, an assload of money and tactics and strategies from more worlds than I have hair on my entire body....

Again, assumptions and speculation in the place of fact. Again, why should I take your speculation as "proof"? "I think" isn't a valid enough reason to justify your assertion that these problems in fact exist. More concrete evidence is needed. Do you have evidence for the size of the Imperial military? Its training budget? Its training regimen and schedule? The goals and expectations of the forces (EG what sort of enemy it's expected to face, etc.?) Can you benchmark the individual trooper performances for individual analysis?

And no, I seriously don't expect you to provide any of the above, because I know very little of it exists, at least not in the form that allows for the extensive sort of analysis you are speculating on. "because one or two times we see it" is not a statistical sample when you have millions of worlds and correspondingly huge populations to draw on.

What do you want to tell me there?

I expect you to know what the fuck you're talking about if you're going to seriously argue there is a problem. I do not take speculation as proof. Is there something wrong with that?

And more specifically, the point was "No, the US does not always win its fights or always act competently, on both a tactical and strategic level." Wouldn't that tell us something? (EG humans can be idiots. big shock!)

The Emperor should be enough of a judge of military capability to know if the guys he's sending are elite troops or some Privates who enlisted yesterday.

Says who? Where has the Emperor shown any military competence? he's shown he's a consummate politician, but that doesn't really translate to military competence. In fact, we can draw historical examples that show the opposite can in fact be true. For that matter, why should we assume military matters are completely immune to politics both internal and external? Politics can be as big as (or bigger) a motivating force in military matters than things like competence or capability. And there is a HUGE amount of political BS tied to the Empire, both in its military and nonmilitary angles.

I guess that curve doesn't increase the risk of that bridge going down somewhen.

How do you konw? Are you an engineer? I'm not. I don't know whether there would be an increased risk. I could imagine there could be - that curve adds in extra mass suspended over the river, which has to be supported and compensated for in the structure of the bridge (you have a bridge over empty space, do you seriosuly think the thing is NOT going to be under strain?)

Of course, if you want more relevant examples, there are numerous and sundry cases where shoddy workmanship or work processes or improper design or related put people at risk. Virtually any consumer product you can name for one thing (like say, vehicles. How many vehicle recalls have their been on the basis of safety concerns? case in point.)

Actually they expected something like this before 9/11. Also, if you ask me, the Empire seems more threatened by the rebels than the US territory by some bearded assholes.

Which disproves my point how? either they didn't consider it likely, or for whatever reasons they felt they simply did not act on it (although I'm going to laugh if this turns into some conspiracy theory BS discussion where the Gubermint did it deliberately.) Nor do I see the evidence upon which you judge the rebels as being a comparatively bigger threat to the Empire.

I'd expect things a BOMBER drops and cause a bang and a short flash on impact are some sort of bombs. Usually these are characteristics of bombs... Being dropped outta bomber...... flash and boom at impact....

You do remember, as Vympel noted already, that they are trying to capture the Falcon alive, right? Dropping explosives willy-nilly is NOT going to do that.


I am going to cut this very short by saying this: do not respond ot me with more idle speculation. I expect facts, data, hard concrete evidence to idle speculation. This forum is NOT friendly to rampant speculation in the place of evidence, and if you persist in ignoring or refusing to provide evidence you will have a very unwelcome (and possibly short) stay here. The logo says "scifi, science and mockery of stupid people" for a good reason.

[Connor MacLeod]

To be honest, its is way too easy to show stupidity for the Imperial military, and frankly, ditto to the Clone/droid armies too.

Yes it is. but this is hardly an irreconcilable problem, which is precisely the point. We know that stupidity and incompetence exists in the Imperial military, but we don't know the exact reasons why. It's a hasty generalization to assume that it is wholly institutional and applies across the board to everyone. Especially since we have examples of "non stupid" as well.

Their penchant for taking prisoners in the heat of combat, Han and Leia at door. Aren't the Imps supposed to be the bad guys?

Actually I see this as proof that the Imperial military may be have a considerable "peacekeeper/militia/securitry or MP" type duty. I vaguely recall that soldiers can sometimes act in a law enforcement role and may arrest/subdue people without killing.

In any case I'd say there's a significant political/personal element (Thanks Palpy) that hamstrung whatever passed for competent forces on Endor (Palpy wanted them alive to torture luke with, he wanted the Rebel Fleet intact ot torture luke, etc.)

Their failure to properly disable said prisoners at Endor.Wire cuffs. We know stormies have them. Hell, if all else fails, grappling hooks.

Granted. Endor can't be totally excused.

Endor tactics.... no efforts to truly lay down a base of fire and re-establish the initiative. One has to wonder HOW they regained the initiative in the first place.... probably their armoured support and technological advantage.

Frankly the fact you had at least 3-4 different military forces working at apparent cross purposes (and with little apparent effort at cooperation or cohesion) annoyed me. Again, politics seemed to dictate more of what happened at Endor than anything resembling a military objective.

In TESB, the disabling of the Leia party by Lando and the subsequent "take-over" of Cloud City, allowing a failed rescue attempt of Han by Leia and the escape of wanted Imperial fugitives such as Lando from Cloud City later.This even though an Imperial garrison has already been in place for security, shooting Threepio earlier on and Vader had planned to leave a force to maintain control.

Truthfully I never gave this one much thought, so I'm not really sure how to respond to it.

ANh gets passes primarily because boarding actions and the tactical parameters(diplomatic ship, capture prisoners, recapture dataplans) explain the nature of the action. And the Alderaans were pacifists, explaining their initial stupidity in trying to establish a firing line.

I wouldn't neccesarily give ANH much of a pass, even if it has some extenunating circumstances. Frankly stupidity is a big reason why we see alot of what we see in ANH, but that really isn't the issue. It doesn't matter so much whether or not it is stupid, what matters is whether or not said stupidity can be corrected or not. If we're seeing the results of a military that has not had any significant enemies or threats for ages, has not had any REAL wars for nearly as long, and has no overriding drives to force it to be competent, why would we assume they would waste resources on something they may very well deem a minor issue? Again politics and other factors (Economic) can be often as important or moreso than practicality, as real life has demonstrated on many cuontless occasions (look at how fucked up economics and politics gets in the US. The US is often quite a accurate real life comparative example for the Empire, particularily in negative aspects.)

We hav equite a bit of reason to believ ethe Empire is highly under-militarized for its capabilities, and I would extend this to training for the same reasons why we don't see millions of Executors or hundreds of DS1s.

[DotS]

It actually shows Imperial COMPETENCE that they were able to do it.

I'm not saying that they're incompetent at every single thing they do.

The SW galaxy has unknown regions of space, remote regions of space, unexplored regions of space

They fly through that galaxy within days and have unexplored regions of space?

Do you suddenly think a swarm of "name the closest animal you have at your house" is going to come and destroy your house any day now?

No, but I'd make sure to tell Officer Dipshit 'Hey... These teddy bears, looks like they can build traps / houses / primitive weapons... Watch out if they get nasty'. How he would know that? Well, every dumbass army on this world would have figured out what these things are and where / how they live, when they're building their absolultely critical generator right on their doorstep.

After all that, you may well have to dismantle the door once the station is closed up, because, hey, maybe that giant tunnel that was open for construction purposes might actually be needed for another purpose. Maybe part of it is being used for a corridor or a cargo bay or the Death Star brothel. The point is, you have to remove all the excess shit you built in there for all of a couple of months on the very slim chance that the Rebels could find the Death Star, know how to destroy it without the Emperor's guidance in getting the right information, and get past the well guarded shield (minus Officer Dipshit)*.

This makes no sense. If this tunnel actually stays open, I would ESPECIALLY want some retractable blockade there. Because if I'm annihilating some worlds (which might resist.... just a chance....) and for some stupid awkward reason my super badass shield fails, I've an open hole to my core again while being engaged. Again. Goddamn.

So a wiki says something and it is unquestionable fact now?

I assume a larger SW Wiki doesn't tell bullshit. But it's just assumption....

Designed to do something doesn't always mean will do something, but I guess I shouldn't expect a retard like yourself to understand this. Also, AFAIK, the heat shit is just another conspiracy theory.

The heat is part of what officially happened. Fire made the already damaged construction weak until it couldn't support the stuff above any more, there you go, your floor crashes on the one below, which can't support the weight, crashing on the one below, which can't............

Go read a newspaper or watch the news for once you stupid fuck.

what if a disgruntled pilot decides to crash his plane into a building? That door sure prevents that right?

How often did that happen since travel via air is common? His co-pilot would probably beat the shit out of him and / or get help to stop the crazed asshole.

This was a last ditch attack and losing ships is why it isn't a first choice. However if you can't do the job one way you do whatever you can to make the station fall. Every ship in the rebel fleet was worth less than the DSII. The rebels would have done anything to ensure that station feel even if it meant dying to a man.

Yes, you might sacrifice ships and men. But I think I made my point clear why it isn't really useful tactics, ramming your capital ships into the enemy base, hoping they will eventually at some point hit the core.

You could as well just fire on the surface until you're through..... That armor must fail at some point too. The problem is, you got your ass handed to you already before you're even close of coming near the core.

Care to prove it? Want to show that no soldier has ever missed at that range? Hell most soldiers IRL won't even fire, and many of those that do in real life don't aim.

Are you full of shit or something? A soldier doesn't aim? A soldier doesn't hit that target 20m away? A soldier never missed?

Hey fucktard, if a soldier misses, thats perfectly okay. If a soldier misses and misses and misses, either he, or his weapon, sucks (or it is defective or worn out or whatever).

You do know that with a better assault rifle and the opportunity to stabilize it (laying down or whatever), even an untrained person can hit moving people being 200m away? Ever guessed why this type of rifle has an effective combat range of about ~200-300m?

Even teenagers in school shootings hit their victims at 25m, so please.... Just fuck off.....

Soldiers won't fire... Yeah..... Try driving towards a sensitive checkpoint or something without stopping after getting the signal to do so. You'll be surprised how much they won't fire. They won't fire so much, that they're actually gonna fire. Funny, no?

The rebels had access to thermal goggles and other goodies I'm sure so camo may be useless.

Yes, because the rebels had no tech? Right dumbass?

I didn't see any rebel running around with thermal goggles on his head during the Endor battle, right dumbass?

So no camo in one case = Empire must be stupid now? Even though there can be other reasons for them not having it, such as it being needed more elsewhere and the ground soldiers and their commanders not expecting to need it.

They don't have enough forest camo uniforms? They don't have enough forest camo uniforms... On a base on a planet... with a starbase above... And a fucking fleet of ships, probably the most important area of the whole Empire and they can't get camo there.... Yeah.... I guess they're busy fighting Greenpeace guys tied to trees (since they're cops) somewhere else and all 3 camo uniforms are currently in use or what the fuck?

Stormtrooper armor may well be their duty uniform.

Is it ever explained how they scratch themselves? Even in a kinda short duty of just a few hours you might wanna scratch your ass at some point or something.

A soldier must ignore itches when standing in formation and shit, but the entire day?

If you're wearing armor IRL, and I nail you in the chest with an SMG how fast are you getting back up? Also, how long do we stay and watch the downed soldiers? A few seconds at most... Yeah.

If you do so, it would prolly be like being punched with some force repeatedly on my chest. It might even break something. The last thing I would do is drop down dead. The first thing I would to is fall over, gasp to get some air and scream in pain, if I'm able to.

Hint, the US training programs are considered in many cases poor compared to nations such as Canada or Israel. These smaller nations can afford more time and money per soldier so they often end up with a better product.

The US military is still the most powerful in the world. And their soldiers receive comparably good training. Of course other countries might have a better or more intense training in some points. That doesn't make them bad or even closely look bad.

He's saying that the US has lost its share of battles, but by your fail logic should have won them all.

The US have never been beaten on their own territory. No military force in the world could actually successfully conquer the USA.

So? You're assuming again that "because they have the capability" is the sole governing concern. A real life example where this fails is IED protection in Iraq (to wit: we didn't have it/use it beforehand, but once IEDs started to become an issue they started applying it as time and resources allowed.) Hell, almost anything you can point out in the US military industrial complex can provide an analogous example to Star Wars. You seem to be under this impression that real life = intelligent, when that isn't neccesarily the case.

It's like sending construction workers without helmets... 'Nah, we don't need em, just cause we have the capability of providing one to everyone'. This is one thing: Stupid.

Assumption and recollection are not fact. Why should I be expected to take your assumptions as fact or proof, pray tell? Do you have some sort of canonical or real life authority where your can be judged to know such things?

Yes. As everyone who ever left his house, I have seen people getting hurt. And I can't remember that all of them just fell to the ground without moving any more. I don't need to be a fucking doctor to know that a human being moves and / or screams when it's severely injured. At least in many, many cases. Of course it happens that someone collapses, loses consciousness or whatever. But not 10 out of 10 times.

Says who? Where has the Emperor shown any military competence?

Does he need to? If he says 'I want your best men there', then he gets his best men there. If he says 'I want some guys there', he'll get some guys there. If he wants rookies, he'll get rookies.

I guess Palpatine didn't randomly pick a battailon, said 'Hey, their badge looks really cool, I'm gonna use these guys' and went on doing his bullshit.

How do you konw? Are you an engineer? I'm not. I don't know whether there would be an increased risk. I could imagine there could be - that curve adds in extra mass suspended over the river, which has to be supported and compensated for in the structure of the bridge (you have a bridge over empty space, do you seriosuly think the thing is NOT going to be under strain?)

If static says 'This bridge is gonna hold', then it most likely will hold. If static says 'It's not gonna hold', then I'm pretty sure you won't even get close to that bridge.

The logo says "scifi, science and mockery of stupid people" for a good reason.

I actually don't expect to stay here too long. But I don't give much of a fuck. This is a discussion board, it's a discussion. Sorry for not wanting or not being able to draw plans of how to build the fucking doors in the DSII or to not provide studies or what the fuck ever to prove that a target isn't hard to hit on 20m even with a fucking pistol, let alone a rifle.

[Norade]

The SW galaxy has unknown regions of space, remote regions of space, unexplored regions of space

They fly through that galaxy within days and have unexplored regions of space?

We can cross the Earth in under a day yet there are unexplored places that are proportionally larger than a single system in a galaxy.

Do you suddenly think a swarm of "name the closest animal you have at your house" is going to come and destroy your house any day now?

No, but I'd make sure to tell Officer Dipshit 'Hey... These teddy bears, looks like they can build traps / houses / primitive weapons... Watch out if they get nasty'. How he would know that? Well, every dumbass army on this world would have figured out what these things are and where / how they live, when they're building their absolultely critical generator right on their doorstep.

So, you think they're hunting large game and/or protecting their village. They obviously hadn't gotten hostile before that or they would have been wiped out.

After all that, you may well have to dismantle the door once the station is closed up, because, hey, maybe that giant tunnel that was open for construction purposes might actually be needed for another purpose. Maybe part of it is being used for a corridor or a cargo bay or the Death Star brothel. The point is, you have to remove all the excess shit you built in there for all of a couple of months on the very slim chance that the Rebels could find the Death Star, know how to destroy it without the Emperor's guidance in getting the right information, and get past the well guarded shield (minus Officer Dipshit)*.

This makes no sense. If this tunnel actually stays open, I would ESPECIALLY want some retractable blockade there. Because if I'm annihilating some worlds (which might resist.... just a chance....) and for some stupid awkward reason my super badass shield fails, I've an open hole to my core again while being engaged. Again. Goddamn.

Except that there would be no tunnel when the DS was 100% complete moron. The tunnel is only needed to access the core during construction.

So a wiki says something and it is unquestionable fact now?

I assume a larger SW Wiki doesn't tell bullshit. But it's just assumption....

Si Wikipedia a larger wiki must never tell bullshit then, right? RIGHT?

Designed to do something doesn't always mean will do something, but I guess I shouldn't expect a retard like yourself to understand this. Also, AFAIK, the heat shit is just another conspiracy theory.

The heat is part of what officially happened. Fire made the already damaged construction weak until it couldn't support the stuff above any more, there you go, your floor crashes on the one below, which can't support the weight, crashing on the one below, which can't............

Go read a newspaper or watch the news for once you stupid fuck.

I'm Canadian, I don't give a shit enough to research an American building falling over. Also heat and burning fuel are parts of a plane crash so obviously it wasn't built to withstand a 747 hit. Oops, looks like Dots is wrong again.

what if a disgruntled pilot decides to crash his plane into a building? That door sure prevents that right?

How often did that happen since travel via air is common? His co-pilot would probably beat the shit out of him and / or get help to stop the crazed asshole.

Does it matter how common it is? It could happen so we must armor all future buildings against this threat if we follow your bizarre logic.

This was a last ditch attack and losing ships is why it isn't a first choice. However if you can't do the job one way you do whatever you can to make the station fall. Every ship in the rebel fleet was worth less than the DSII. The rebels would have done anything to ensure that station feel even if it meant dying to a man.

Yes, you might sacrifice ships and men. But I think I made my point clear why it isn't really useful tactics, ramming your capital ships into the enemy base, hoping they will eventually at some point hit the core.

You could as well just fire on the surface until you're through..... That armor must fail at some point too. The problem is, you got your ass handed to you already before you're even close of coming near the core.

Except that an open part is weaker than a fully armored part dipshit. Besides, I never said it was a good plan, just that it was an option.

Care to prove it? Want to show that no soldier has ever missed at that range? Hell most soldiers IRL won't even fire, and many of those that do in real life don't aim.

Are you full of shit or something? A soldier doesn't aim? A soldier doesn't hit that target 20m away? A soldier never missed?

Hey fucktard, if a soldier misses, thats perfectly okay. If a soldier misses and misses and misses, either he, or his weapon, sucks (or it is defective or worn out or whatever).

You do know that with a better assault rifle and the opportunity to stabilize it (laying down or whatever), even an untrained person can hit moving people being 200m away? Ever guessed why this type of rifle has an effective combat range of about ~200-300m?

Even teenagers in school shootings hit their victims at 25m, so please.... Just fuck off.....

Soldiers won't fire... Yeah..... Try driving towards a sensitive checkpoint or something without stopping after getting the signal to do so. You'll be surprised how much they won't fire. They won't fire so much, that they're actually gonna fire. Funny, no?

Soldiers can miss targets at ranges under 20m, hell you can miss at point blank. If a target is moving or evading that chance goes up. Also a teenage shooter can hit a target unable to fight back at range with an unknown number of shots. Wow, that really makes a good point.

It's been shown that many soldiers won't fire on a target even if that target is moving towards them and hostile. Some soldiers will, but not all, not even close. Also firing at a vehicle is easier for most people than firing at a person on foot. It's easier to say you just shot the car and the people happened to die than to aim to kill a person.

The rebels had access to thermal goggles and other goodies I'm sure so camo may be useless.

Yes, because the rebels had no tech? Right dumbass?

I didn't see any rebel running around with thermal goggles on his head during the Endor battle, right dumbass?

Possibly because they knew they wouldn't need them, we also don't know what every soldier had in their gear so they could have had such kit and never needed it.

So no camo in one case = Empire must be stupid now? Even though there can be other reasons for them not having it, such as it being needed more elsewhere and the ground soldiers and their commanders not expecting to need it.

They don't have enough forest camo uniforms? They don't have enough forest camo uniforms... On a base on a planet... with a starbase above... And a fucking fleet of ships, probably the most important area of the whole Empire and they can't get camo there.... Yeah.... I guess they're busy fighting Greenpeace guys tied to trees (since they're cops) somewhere else and all 3 camo uniforms are currently in use or what the fuck?

I showed an example of a modern military having just such a shortage so kindly fuck off.

Stormtrooper armor may well be their duty uniform.

Is it ever explained how they scratch themselves? Even in a kinda short duty of just a few hours you might wanna scratch your ass at some point or something.

A soldier must ignore itches when standing in formation and shit, but the entire day?

How often do soldiers in modern armor need to do the same? Also, why can't said soldier go to the shit shack, take his armor off, scratch, and then go back to duty? Of I forgot not being able to scratch an itch means you can't wear an item of clothing or armor. Dumbass.

If you're wearing armor IRL, and I nail you in the chest with an SMG how fast are you getting back up? Also, how long do we stay and watch the downed soldiers? A few seconds at most... Yeah.

If you do so, it would prolly be like being punched with some force repeatedly on my chest. It might even break something. The last thing I would do is drop down dead. The first thing I would to is fall over, gasp to get some air and scream in pain, if I'm able to.

I doubt it, I really doubt that a shot hard enough to break ribs and cause internal bleeding won't put you on your ass. Not to mention that blasters > firearms so that is even more force.

Hint, the US training programs are considered in many cases poor compared to nations such as Canada or Israel. These smaller nations can afford more time and money per soldier so they often end up with a better product.

The US military is still the most powerful in the world. And their soldiers receive comparably good training. Of course other countries might have a better or more intense training in some points. That doesn't make them bad or even closely look bad.

US soldiers repeatedly show that they suck by having the most friendly fire incidents, Mogadishu also comes to mind. So fuck off.

He's saying that the US has lost its share of battles, but by your fail logic should have won them all.

The US have never been beaten on their own territory. No military force in the world could actually successfully conquer the USA.

The US was beaten at Pearl Harbor, they also lost to Canada/Britain in the War of 1812. So kindly fuck off again.

So? You're assuming again that "because they have the capability" is the sole governing concern. A real life example where this fails is IED protection in Iraq (to wit: we didn't have it/use it beforehand, but once IEDs started to become an issue they started applying it as time and resources allowed.) Hell, almost anything you can point out in the US military industrial complex can provide an analogous example to Star Wars. You seem to be under this impression that real life = intelligent, when that isn't neccesarily the case.

It's like sending construction workers without helmets... 'Nah, we don't need em, just cause we have the capability of providing one to everyone'. This is one thing: Stupid.

Or like sending soldiers to Iraq without IED training and gear. Wait that actually happened.

Assumption and recollection are not fact. Why should I be expected to take your assumptions as fact or proof, pray tell? Do you have some sort of canonical or real life authority where your can be judged to know such things?

Yes. As everyone who ever left his house, I have seen people getting hurt. And I can't remember that all of them just fell to the ground without moving any more. I don't need to be a fucking doctor to know that a human being moves and / or screams when it's severely injured. At least in many, many cases. Of course it happens that someone collapses, loses consciousness or whatever. But not 10 out of 10 times.

Ignoring that a blaster also has a stun component and may simply be powerful enough to send most people hit into sever shock.

Says who? Where has the Emperor shown any military competence?

Does he need to? If he says 'I want your best men there', then he gets his best men there. If he says 'I want some guys there', he'll get some guys there. If he wants rookies, he'll get rookies.

I guess Palpatine didn't randomly pick a battailon, said 'Hey, their badge looks really cool, I'm gonna use these guys' and went on doing his bullshit.

His order to get best men may go through several aides, before reaching anybody. that changes them a bit and then General Asshloe sends the best he thinks he can spare, and suddenly you get 'the best' troops actually being closer to average.

How do you konw? Are you an engineer? I'm not. I don't know whether there would be an increased risk. I could imagine there could be - that curve adds in extra mass suspended over the river, which has to be supported and compensated for in the structure of the bridge (you have a bridge over empty space, do you seriosuly think the thing is NOT going to be under strain?)

If static says 'This bridge is gonna hold', then it most likely will hold. If static says 'It's not gonna hold', then I'm pretty sure you won't even get close to that bridge.

Yes, but if say high winds, or an earthquake, or a flood happens, the fuck-up bridge may do worse than the proper one.

The logo says "scifi, science and mockery of stupid people" for a good reason.

I actually don't expect to stay here too long. But I don't give much of a fuck. This is a discussion board, it's a discussion. Sorry for not wanting or not being able to draw plans of how to build the fucking doors in the DSII or to not provide studies or what the fuck ever to prove that a target isn't hard to hit on 20m even with a fucking pistol, let alone a rifle.

If you can't prove a point don't make it, if you don't want to be here fuck off.

[DotS]

We can cross the Earth in under a day yet there are unexplored places that are proportionally larger than a single system in a galaxy.

Do a good comparison or fuck you. We have extreme troubles going beyond a certain depth and we have extreme problems actually seeing something down there, seeing animals, before they get scared by light or sound and flee. Also our submarines just suck in terms of maneuverability, comfort, cost, long time research (without exiting the vehicle) and so on and so on. Also your sight is VERY limited in water. Especially in pitch black water. In Star Wars you win starships at card games......... And AFAIR they had starships for a pretty good while already, while we, in terms of human history, just built our first submarine yesterday.

I'm Canadian, I don't give a shit enough to research an American building falling over. Also heat and burning fuel are parts of a plane crash so obviously it wasn't built to withstand a 747 hit. Oops, looks like Dots is wrong again.

We're talking about your neighbour. Your both countries are prolly farther away from me than Mexico is from you.

And yes, it was designed to withstand the hit itself, which it did. It didn't fall over, it didn't get torn into 2 pieces, it stood there after the impact as before. Just with an ex airplane inside. And some fire. I guess they didn't plan the fire part through very well. So no, I'm not really wrong. You're just an uninformed piece of shit.

Does it matter how common it is? It could happen so we must armor all future buildings against this threat if we follow your bizarre logic.

Try harder next time.

Except that an open part is weaker than a fully armored part dipshit. Besides, I never said it was a good plan, just that it was an option.

So it makes more sense to kill off a capital ship to get through the armor and shoot the inner DS a bit (if you actually can do it, mentioned before), drawing all the attention to that single ship and have it destroyed within a very short time, rather than using the capital ships firepower to just penetrate the armor the old school way. Or have some smaller ship fly in to smash a hole in the armour and then start firing at that place, if the armor (as you seem to suggest) is more resistant to firepower than to a ram.

Even for an option, your capital ship kamikaze is pretty damn stupid.

Soldiers can miss targets at ranges under 20m, hell you can miss at point blank. If a target is moving or evading that chance goes up. Also a teenage shooter can hit a target unable to fight back at range with an unknown number of shots. Wow, that really makes a good point.

It makes the point that most people tend to hit more than a Trooper. We're not talking about 'he COULD miss'. If I am a soldier and I miss, I fire again. Until I don't miss. And if I keep missing, I should really be peeling potatoes and NOT be part of a fighting team.

It's been shown that many soldiers won't fire on a target even if that target is moving towards them and hostile. Some soldiers will, but not all, not even close. Also firing at a vehicle is easier for most people than firing at a person on foot. It's easier to say you just shot the car and the people happened to die than to aim to kill a person.

I'm sure a Trooper has real problems to shoot at a rebel. We see them have problems with shooting at people all the time..... no wait, we don't.... They're spamming blaster bolts really....

Oh, by the way.... If you shoot a car, you have to aim and shoot at the driver. It's not like soldiers just point their rifles somewhere at that car and start blindly firing (yes, that might happen. If they panic). They can't even do that, because they risk hitting someone else behind the car or next to the car, you know what ricochet is? I once saw a video of soldiers actually shooting a guy inside a car. They very obviously aimed very precisely. And it took them forever to actually hit the guy and stop the car. I guess you can't expect a standard 5,56mm NATO round to go all through the motor block, especially not on a bit of a distance. So it seemed like they had to hit his head, which isn't too easy, so they definitely needed to aim properly....

Possibly because they knew they wouldn't need them, we also don't know what every soldier had in their gear so they could have had such kit and never needed it.

The question is, who the fuck told em that there's not a battalion of camouflaged troopers waiting to shoot the rebels in the face with sniper rifles?

I showed an example of a modern military having just such a shortage so kindly fuck off.

Were you also halfway finished building a 160 km (?) wide base there and didn't ask to get your shit sent to you yet? I'm sorry, but I'd take that as a personal proof that Officer Dipshit was Canadian

How often do soldiers in modern armor need to do the same?

A soldier does not wear full body armor. It's impractical to have this for the whole day, that's all I want to say.

I doubt it, I really doubt that a shot hard enough to break ribs and cause internal bleeding won't put you on your ass. Not to mention that blasters > firearms so that is even more force.

That's exactly the point. I'd get knocked on my ass, of course. But you'd see that I'm still alive. I would move, I would cough, I would maybe scream. Troopers don't do that. Maybe they scream after being hit, I haven't observed that. But I'm really talking about screaming after hitting the ground, proving this individual is alive. Not a Wilhelm while dying.

US soldiers repeatedly show that they suck by having the most friendly fire incidents, Mogadishu also comes to mind. So fuck off.

Having friendly fire doesn't really prove that your soldiers are ineffective. Mogadishu is a very, very bad example for proving that US soldiers suck, because very few US troops with insufficient armor for serious combat kicked a lot of somalian asses. Ask Wikipedia for more detailed numbers:

UNOSOM 180 soldiers, 20 killed
Somalian fighters: 2000-4000 people, AT LEAST 700 killed

Yes, those US soldiers really had no idea of fighting..... Stupid asshole, go check your own arguments next time.

The US was beaten at Pearl Harbor, they also lost to Canada/Britain in the War of 1812. So kindly fuck off again.

I meant their country. Not their political territory, like some navy base on some island.....

The USA didn't lose the 1812 war, they signed a treaty because they concluded that nobody would really win if this war goes on. So I suggest you go learn your own basic history you stupid fuck. What you do is either being misinformed about very obvious things, or lying. In both cases: Fuck you.

Or like sending soldiers to Iraq without IED training and gear. Wait that actually happened.

Just sucks they got it afterwards. The Troopers didn't get shit.

Ignoring that a blaster also has a stun component and may simply be powerful enough to send most people hit into sever shock.

Component? I hope you don't refer to the ANH beginning.

His order to get best men may go through several aides, before reaching anybody. that changes them a bit and then General Asshloe sends the best he thinks he can spare, and suddenly you get 'the best' troops actually being closer to average.

That's incompetence then, when a clear order gets blurred that badly. Also, this simply doesn't work. If he wants the best men, then he prolly asks Admiral Stupid. Admiral Stupid will then decide, which unit to send. Or who to ask which unit to send. And then they'll send these guys. I don't know how many instances you expect there. They don't have to give that order to some sergeants to pick people, they have to pick a unit. A battalion. And if you want the elite, there's usually an elite. If the president orders his guy (his minister of defense, his highest general or who ever) to send the best men, the best men will arrive. And not a unit which is 'closer to average'. The president would clearly ask who the fuck these guys are and who fucked up before ripping exactly this person's ass apart.

Yes, but if say high winds, or an earthquake, or a flood happens, the fuck-up bridge may do worse than the proper one.

Sorry, but I've no idea about Canadian construction laws or what that bridge needs to withstand and what not. I assume it's built within some laws and static thought behind it. And I guess they re-calculated the shitty thing if the final result looks different than the plan. Safety > Cash. At least in our world.

If you can't prove a point don't make it, if you don't want to be here fuck off.

If I need to prove points which pure logics clearly support, something goes wrong. Like the 'cant hit the target at 20m with a rifle' bullfuck you came up with.

[Aaron]

It makes the point that most people tend to hit more than a Trooper. We're not talking about 'he COULD miss'. If I am a soldier and I miss, I fire again. Until I don't miss. And if I keep missing, I should really be peeling potatoes and NOT be part of a fighting team.

There aren't a whole lot of stats that I'm aware of that go into hit/miss in combat but my instructors often trotted out the 30% figure, as in thats how often you could expect to hit.

I'm sure a Trooper has real problems to shoot at a rebel. We see them have problems with shooting at people all the time..... no wait, we don't.... They're spamming blaster bolts really....

Norade is using out of date info. IIRC after the switch to the figure 11 type target the numbers went up over 70% and IIRC now it's around 90% through the use of various psychological conditioning techniques (heavy on the "fire or your buddy fucking dies").

Oh, by the way.... If you shoot a car, you have to aim and shoot at the driver. It's not like soldiers just point their rifles somewhere at that car and start blindly firing (yes, that might happen. If they panic). They can't even do that, because they risk hitting someone else behind the car or next to the car, you know what ricochet is? I once saw a video of soldiers actually shooting a guy inside a car. They very obviously aimed very precisely. And it took them forever to actually hit the guy and stop the car. I guess you can't expect a standard 5,56mm NATO round to go all through the motor block, especially not on a bit of a distance. So it seemed like they had to hit his head, which isn't too easy, so they definitely needed to aim properly....

Depends on what you've got. If you've got a GPMG handy then by all means aim for the block.

Were you also halfway finished building a 160 km (?) wide base there and didn't ask to get your shit sent to you yet? I'm sorry, but I'd take that as a personal proof that Officer Dipshit was Canadian

Even though I personally hate officers with the fire of a thousand sons, I'll ask you not to insult my former profession or it's members.

US soldiers repeatedly show that they suck by having the most friendly fire incidents, Mogadishu also comes to mind. So fuck off.

No, it demonstrates carelessness. Not necessarily that their morons.

[DotS]

Sorry, edited around too long on the previous post... So here's what the last one missed / should have been changed:

We can cross the Earth in under a day yet there are unexplored places that are proportionally larger than a single system in a galaxy.

Do a good comparison or fuck you. We have extreme troubles going beyond a certain depth and we have extreme problems actually seeing something down there, seeing animals, before they get scared by light or sound and flee. Also our submarines just suck in terms of maneuverability, comfort, cost, long time research (without exiting the vehicle) and so on and so on. Also your sight is VERY limited in water. Especially in pitch black water. In Star Wars you win starships at card games......... And AFAIR they had starships for a pretty good while already, while we, in terms of human history, just built our first submarine yesterday.

And your argument even fails on another level, because you suddenly change medium. We can cross Earth in under a day, but not on the sea and especially not under water. Hey idiot, it takes hours to get across Europe in an airplane. Guess how long it takes to travel across the world (without seeing much) underwater. You'd grow a fucking beard.

The US was beaten at Pearl Harbor, they also lost to Canada/Britain in the War of 1812. So kindly fuck off again.

The USA didn't lose the 1812 war, they signed a treaty because they concluded that nobody would really win if this war goes on. That's not a defeat. So I suggest you go learn your own basic history. What you do is either being misinformed about very obvious things, or lying, because even I, living in the EU, could figure out that this is wrong within seconds. I didn't even bother to double check the information, because I guess that the Wikipedia in 2 different languages won't be lying.

It's been shown that many soldiers won't fire on a target even if that target is moving towards them and hostile. Some soldiers will, but not all, not even close. Also firing at a vehicle is easier for most people than firing at a person on foot. It's easier to say you just shot the car and the people happened to die than to aim to kill a person.

I'm sure a Trooper has real problems to shoot at a rebel. We see them have problems with shooting at people all the time..... no wait, we don't.... They're spamming blaster bolts really....

Oh, by the way.... If you shoot a car, you have to aim and shoot at the driver. It's not like soldiers just point their rifles somewhere at that car and start blindly firing (yes, that might happen. If they panic). They can't even do that, because they risk hitting someone else behind the car or next to the car, you know what ricochet is? I once saw a video of soldiers actually shooting a guy inside a car. They very obviously aimed very precisely. And it took them forever to actually hit the guy and stop the car. I guess you can't expect a standard 5,56mm NATO round to go all through the motor block, especially not on a bit of a distance. So it seemed like they had to hit his head, which isn't too easy, so they definitely needed to aim properly...To give you a point, that car wasn't going at the soldiers at full speed. They had time to aim. My point is: They aimed. When you're in danger, you aim and shoot.

Sorry for the editing fuckup.

Depends on what you've got. If you've got a GPMG handy then by all means aim for the block.

They just used their assault rifles, so I guess they didn't have heavier weaponry there.

Even though I personally hate officers with the fire of a thousand sons, I'll ask you not to insult my former profession or it's members.

I apologize.

[Norade]

We can cross the Earth in under a day yet there are unexplored places that are proportionally larger than a single system in a galaxy.

Do a good comparison or fuck you. We have extreme troubles going beyond a certain depth and we have extreme problems actually seeing something down there, seeing animals, before they get scared by light or sound and flee. Also our submarines just suck in terms of maneuverability, comfort, cost, long time research (without exiting the vehicle) and so on and so on. Also your sight is VERY limited in water. Especially in pitch black water. In Star Wars you win starships at card games......... And AFAIR they had starships for a pretty good while already, while we, in terms of human history, just built our first submarine yesterday.

Except that there are areas on land that haven't been explored as well numb nuts. They might have been mapped or scanned from space, but they haven't been fully explored by any human or unmanned device.

I'm Canadian, I don't give a shit enough to research an American building falling over. Also heat and burning fuel are parts of a plane crash so obviously it wasn't built to withstand a 747 hit. Oops, looks like Dots is wrong again.

We're talking about your neighbour. Your both countries are prolly farther away from me than Mexico is from you.

And yes, it was designed to withstand the hit itself, which it did. It didn't fall over, it didn't get torn into 2 pieces, it stood there after the impact as before. Just with an ex airplane inside. And some fire. I guess they didn't plan the fire part through very well. So no, I'm not really wrong. You're just an uninformed piece of shit.

New York is 3,600km from where I live. Mexico is actually far closer. The event also happened when I was 13, so if I get a detail wrong sue me.

Also, you admit that though it was designed to ward off a certain threat that design feature failed. You mean like how the shield was designed to protect the DS and it failed as well? Yeah, fuck off.

Does it matter how common it is? It could happen so we must armor all future buildings against this threat if we follow your bizarre logic.

Try harder next time.

The odds of that happening are about the same as the Rebels plan working.

Except that an open part is weaker than a fully armored part dipshit. Besides, I never said it was a good plan, just that it was an option.

So it makes more sense to kill off a capital ship to get through the armor and shoot the inner DS a bit (if you actually can do it, mentioned before), drawing all the attention to that single ship and have it destroyed within a very short time, rather than using the capital ships firepower to just penetrate the armor the old school way. Or have some smaller ship fly in to smash a hole in the armour and then start firing at that place, if the armor (as you seem to suggest) is more resistant to firepower than to a ram.

Even for an option, your capital ship kamikaze is pretty damn stupid.

Then just have your fleet fire into the damn uncompleted spaces from where they are. Honestly the whole tangent is pointless because a plate doesn't save the DS from being destroyed.

Soldiers can miss targets at ranges under 20m, hell you can miss at point blank. If a target is moving or evading that chance goes up. Also a teenage shooter can hit a target unable to fight back at range with an unknown number of shots. Wow, that really makes a good point.

It makes the point that most people tend to hit more than a Trooper. We're not talking about 'he COULD miss'. If I am a soldier and I miss, I fire again. Until I don't miss. And if I keep missing, I should really be peeling potatoes and NOT be part of a fighting team.

As Aaron pointed out the hit rate at that range is 30%. So these misses might just be a case of a bad sampling of accuracy.

It's been shown that many soldiers won't fire on a target even if that target is moving towards them and hostile. Some soldiers will, but not all, not even close. Also firing at a vehicle is easier for most people than firing at a person on foot. It's easier to say you just shot the car and the people happened to die than to aim to kill a person.

I'm sure a Trooper has real problems to shoot at a rebel. We see them have problems with shooting at people all the time..... no wait, we don't.... They're spamming blaster bolts really....

Oh, by the way.... If you shoot a car, you have to aim and shoot at the driver. It's not like soldiers just point their rifles somewhere at that car and start blindly firing (yes, that might happen. If they panic). They can't even do that, because they risk hitting someone else behind the car or next to the car, you know what ricochet is? I once saw a video of soldiers actually shooting a guy inside a car. They very obviously aimed very precisely. And it took them forever to actually hit the guy and stop the car. I guess you can't expect a standard 5,56mm NATO round to go all through the motor block, especially not on a bit of a distance. So it seemed like they had to hit his head, which isn't too easy, so they definitely needed to aim properly....

As pointed out at one point the rate for soldiers firing was far lower than 100%, closer to 25% IIRC. I see that it has been raised to 90% today with better training techniques so I concede that point.

However on the vehicle thing it's easier to say you had to stop the vehicle and rationalize it as firing on a vehicle and not a person. Obviously the less you can see of the person you;re shooting at the easier it gets. But would you have an easier time shooting a man or a tank?

Possibly because they knew they wouldn't need them, we also don't know what every soldier had in their gear so they could have had such kit and never needed it.

The question is, who the fuck told em that there's not a battalion of camouflaged troopers waiting to shoot the rebels in the face with sniper rifles?

Past experience with similar operations.

I showed an example of a modern military having just such a shortage so kindly fuck off.

Were you also halfway finished building a 160 km (?) wide base there and didn't ask to get your shit sent to you yet? I'm sorry, but I'd take that as a personal proof that Officer Dipshit was Canadian

Go fuck yourself, it was a simple example.

How often do soldiers in modern armor need to do the same?

A soldier does not wear full body armor. It's impractical to have this for the whole day, that's all I want to say.

In the air condition DS it really wouldn't be so bad.

I doubt it, I really doubt that a shot hard enough to break ribs and cause internal bleeding won't put you on your ass. Not to mention that blasters > firearms so that is even more force.

That's exactly the point. I'd get knocked on my ass, of course. But you'd see that I'm still alive. I would move, I would cough, I would maybe scream. Troopers don't do that. Maybe they scream after being hit, I haven't observed that. But I'm really talking about screaming after hitting the ground, proving this individual is alive. Not a Wilhelm while dying.

You're ignoring the fact that being hit with a larger force would force the air from your lungs and knock you over.

US soldiers repeatedly show that they suck by having the most friendly fire incidents, Mogadishu also comes to mind. So fuck off.

Having friendly fire doesn't really prove that your soldiers are ineffective. Mogadishu is a very, very bad example for proving that US soldiers suck, because very few US troops with insufficient armor for serious combat kicked a lot of somalian asses. Ask Wikipedia for more detailed numbers:

UNOSOM 180 soldiers, 20 killed
Somalian fighters: 2000-4000 people, AT LEAST 700 killed

Yes, those US soldiers really had no idea of fighting..... Stupid asshole, go check your own arguments next time.

In all cases it shows poor planing, poor intel, and a lack of equipment. It may show that they can take cover and fire decently, but it does show that they can fuck up at major operations in spite of superior tech. No matter how you spin it, Mogadishu was not a victory.

The US was beaten at Pearl Harbor, they also lost to Canada/Britain in the War of 1812. So kindly fuck off again.

I meant their country. Not their political territory, like some navy base on some island.....

The USA didn't lose the 1812 war, they signed a treaty because they concluded that nobody would really win if this war goes on. So I suggest you go learn your own basic history you stupid fuck. What you do is either being misinformed about very obvious things, or lying. In both cases: Fuck you.

So Hawaii isn't part of the US now? You could have fooled me, it's a state and everything.

The US was losing in the war of 1812, unless you believe that having forces able to burn down your capital building isn't losing? Not to mention the US not being able to inflict any harm back on the British.

There is also Vietnam.

Or like sending soldiers to Iraq without IED training and gear. Wait that actually happened.

Just sucks they got it afterwards. The Troopers didn't get shit.

Just like the storm troopers may have got better training and armor at a later date.

Ignoring that a blaster also has a stun component and may simply be powerful enough to send most people hit into sever shock.

Component? I hope you don't refer to the ANH beginning.

We know blasters can stun people, we don't know that a normal bolt can. Either way it could just hit hard enough to cause instant shock.

His order to get best men may go through several aides, before reaching anybody. that changes them a bit and then General Asshloe sends the best he thinks he can spare, and suddenly you get 'the best' troops actually being closer to average.

That's incompetence then, when a clear order gets blurred that badly. Also, this simply doesn't work. If he wants the best men, then he prolly asks Admiral Stupid. Admiral Stupid will then decide, which unit to send. Or who to ask which unit to send. And then they'll send these guys. I don't know how many instances you expect there. They don't have to give that order to some sergeants to pick people, they have to pick a unit. A battalion. And if you want the elite, there's usually an elite. If the president orders his guy (his minister of defense, his highest general or who ever) to send the best men, the best men will arrive. And not a unit which is 'closer to average'. The president would clearly ask who the fuck these guys are and who fucked up before ripping exactly this person's ass apart.

Hardly, that's politics. If you ask for an elite unit today from the US which unit would you get? The answer, it depends on what your definition is and what job you need done.

Yes, but if say high winds, or an earthquake, or a flood happens, the fuck-up bridge may do worse than the proper one.

Sorry, but I've no idea about Canadian construction laws or what that bridge needs to withstand and what not. I assume it's built within some laws and static thought behind it. And I guess they re-calculated the shitty thing if the final result looks different than the plan. Safety > Cash. At least in our world.

Yeah, tell BP that saftey > cash. There are tons of example with that not being true so fuck off.

If you can't prove a point don't make it, if you don't want to be here fuck off.

If I need to prove points which pure logics clearly support, something goes wrong. Like the 'cant hit the target at 20m with a rifle' bullfuck you came up with.

Except that you have no figures for that so kindly man up and provide some. I'm calling you out. Show me the hit rates for modern soldiers at a range of 20m or shut the fuck up.

[CaptJodan]

I'm not saying that they're incompetent at every single thing they do.

Exactly. They're anti-spy forces are so good, they hid this massive project from the Empire. Your line is "they could be found out therefore the rebels will breach the shield, therefore they need doors/bars." They looked at the cost/benefit analysis, figured their forces could keep the Rebels from knowing about it, and low and behold they did. But strangely, you're still ranting about how the rebels could have found the station before hand.

They fly through that galaxy within days and have unexplored regions of space?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unknown_Regions

I'm sorry it's a wiki, but if you're willing to use it. Short answer, yes. Deal with it.

No, but I'd make sure to tell Officer Dipshit 'Hey... These teddy bears, looks like they can build traps / houses / primitive weapons... Watch out if they get nasty'. How he would know that? Well, every dumbass army on this world would have figured out what these things are and where / how they live, when they're building their absolultely critical generator right on their doorstep.

Well there was a waste of words. What part of that is supposed to get back up to the engineers? You keep trying to draw this line between how massively vulnerable the shield generator was all the way to the engineers who should have stopped work on the superlaser that Palps wanted finished to put in a few barriers in unfinished sections. The line doesn't exist.

And how many times do we have to tell you that the Imperials were still winning the battle until Chewie took the AT-ST? The Ewoks and commandos had the advantage only as long as they had the element of surprise, at which point the Empire was blasting their asses. Even after the rebels won the battle outside, the shield generator was secure until said dipshit opened the door to let the rebels in.

After all that, you may well have to dismantle the door once the station is closed up, because, hey, maybe that giant tunnel that was open for construction purposes might actually be needed for another purpose. Maybe part of it is being used for a corridor or a cargo bay or the Death Star brothel. The point is, you have to remove all the excess shit you built in there for all of a couple of months on the very slim chance that the Rebels could find the Death Star, know how to destroy it without the Emperor's guidance in getting the right information, and get past the well guarded shield (minus Officer Dipshit)*.

This makes no sense. If this tunnel actually stays open, I would ESPECIALLY want some retractable blockade there. Because if I'm annihilating some worlds (which might resist.... just a chance....) and for some stupid awkward reason my super badass shield fails, I've an open hole to my core again while being engaged. Again. Goddamn.

I'm keeping my quote on this one because clearly you fail at reading comprehension. I said the exact opposite of what you claim I said. Let me try to dumb it down sufficiently for you. The space the little fighters flew through would probably eventually be used for other things, thus having no direct line to the reactor. If you put big, tough, mechanical doors in the way, you have to remove them to build what you want to build in that space. This wastes more time, money, materials, and man hours to do.

[PainRack]

Yes it is. but this is hardly an irreconcilable problem, which is precisely the point. We know that stupidity and incompetence exists in the Imperial military, but we don't know the exact reasons why. It's a hasty generalization to assume that it is wholly institutional and applies across the board to everyone. Especially since we have examples of "non stupid" as well.

Not really. The EU examples don't help either for the specific instances I'm referring to.

Actually I see this as proof that the Imperial military may be have a considerable "peacekeeper/militia/securitry or MP" type duty. I vaguely recall that soldiers can sometimes act in a law enforcement role and may arrest/subdue people without killing.

Since you're talking to a formerly trained MP, let just say that no manual or doctrine I was exposed to would have justified what they did on Endor with regards to Han. You were in an active firefight, the enemy were showing hostile intention and had the capabilities to damage property. Granted, a lucky shot(please, no disabling nonsense) did disable Leia but Han wasn't down for the count.

AND the tactics involved in taking a prisoner were ENTIRELY disregarded by the stormtrooper. Standard tactic is to approach with two men in seperate directions and physically arrest the prisoner, not point the gun and say hands up. The lack of second stormtrooper points to either lack of discipline and cohesion as the squad was broken up. The stupidity in not physically disabling the person points to lousy prisoner tactics/training.

In any case I'd say there's a significant political/personal element (Thanks Palpy) that hamstrung whatever passed for competent forces on Endor (Palpy wanted them alive to torture luke with, he wanted the Rebel Fleet intact ot torture luke, etc.)

No documented orders were ever passed down to the Imperial forces. The movie simply shows the local commander wishing to take additional forces to search the area where Luke was found, probably with the intent to take prisoners, but this was a local initiative.

Its not impossible, but as stated above, even if this was the case, their prisoner handling tactics SUCKs.

Frankly the fact you had at least 3-4 different military forces working at apparent cross purposes (and with little apparent effort at cooperation or cohesion) annoyed me. Again, politics seemed to dictate more of what happened at Endor than anything resembling a military objective.

It still didn't make that much sense given the retcon that Stormtroopers are now "marines", but the initial fluff was that stormtroopers were assigned perimeter duties while naval troopers guarded the installation.
But we ARE talking basic tactics here on the part of the stormies.

Truthfully I never gave this one much thought, so I'm not really sure how to respond to it.

Frankly, the whole shoot to miss argument for this portion is also hilarious. Its enough to simply point to the difficulties of a real firefight to justify their hit rate here. There was no reason why Darth Vader would have left orders to capture Leia and Chewbacca, much less Lando.

I wouldn't neccesarily give ANH much of a pass, even if it has some extenunating circumstances. Frankly stupidity is a big reason why we see alot of what we see in ANH, but that really isn't the issue.

Oh? Pray tell. Boarding actions against a ship and being limited in the use of weaponery such as grenades are more than sufficient to show why such weapons/tactics were not used in ANH.

It doesn't matter so much whether or not it is stupid, what matters is whether or not said stupidity can be corrected or not. If we're seeing the results of a military that has not had any significant enemies or threats for ages, has not had any REAL wars for nearly as long, and has no overriding drives to force it to be competent, why would we assume they would waste resources on something they may very well deem a minor issue? Again politics and other factors (Economic) can be often as important or moreso than practicality, as real life has demonstrated on many cuontless occasions (look at how fucked up economics and politics gets in the US. The US is often quite a accurate real life comparative example for the Empire, particularily in negative aspects.)

The Empire were involved in an INSURGENCY. Endor was totally unexcusable. If their best legion had no idea how to properly secure prisoners, why the fuck were they so lousy at basic tactics?

[CaptJodan]

Sorry, to add to Dots' rants about Endor being a lightning rod for all kinds of people running across it....

Due to its proximity to the inhospitable Unknown Regions, Endor was a relatively quiet planetoid both prior to and after the battle.

In close proximity to sectors unexplored, check. Quiet sector prior and after the battle, check. Way outside of normal space lanes. Better start building those doors or bars, who knows what will come flying at Endor next.

[PainRack]

With regards to accuracy.
Vietnam had less than 10% accuracy. Other bodyguard situations with pistols showed 10-20%.
Its..... humbling to be placed in a simulator where you're supposed to shoot soldiers hiding out in the jungle. You're not exposed to enemy fire, you merely hear the sounds of them firing, there's no arty or whatnot, and I still can't fucking hit anything because I can't see them.
The temptation to simply spray the area gets very high.... and it was a fucking 50-100m simulator. God.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Something I've been thinking about as I've gone through this thread. A station the size of the Death Star, especially the second Death Star, probably does need a few large passages that go to the core, even after construction is complete, simply for moving supplies around. Otherwise what do you do when some Trandoshan shows up in a freighter and says "Hi's, I'm from X.T.S. an' I's got's this five meter long, twenty ton gizmotron for Core Engineering. Where do ya want's I should put's it?"

[Batman]

Hypermatter reactor. Which sort of implies it runs on-hypermatter. Which, unless you want to assume the reactor started OUT with a supply sufficient for the entire design lifetime of the station, you need to get to the reactor SOMEHOW on refueling.

[DotS]

Except that there are areas on land that haven't been explored as well numb nuts. They might have been mapped or scanned from space, but they haven't been fully explored by any human or unmanned device.

I can't think of one quickly. Help me out.

As Aaron pointed out the hit rate at that range is 30%. So these misses might just be a case of a bad sampling of accuracy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a total idiot when it comes to math and statistics. But shouldn't, say, 3 Troopers make a pretty sure hit after each one fired 3 times? I doubt our rebels get hit that often, compared to how many fucking blaster bolts are flying around in each fight or chase scene.

You're ignoring the fact that being hit with a larger force would force the air from your lungs and knock you over.

Which suddenly means I'm silent and unable to move or gasp for air?

In all cases it shows poor planing, poor intel, and a lack of equipment. It may show that they can take cover and fire decently, but it does show that they can fuck up at major operations in spite of superior tech. No matter how you spin it, Mogadishu was not a victory.

Who is 'they'? Because 'they' who fought weren't 'those' who planned the whole clusterfuck.

The US was losing in the war of 1812, unless you believe that having forces able to burn down your capital building isn't losing? Not to mention the US not being able to inflict any harm back on the British.

It's very interesting that 'the US wasn't able to inflict any harm', when they actually won a battle after that treaty. You might have heard of the Battle of New Orleans in which the brits got their asses handed by the americans.

Without being an expert there, I'd say a war is won when the enemy forces are either surrendering or incapable of fighting you any more. None of both occured in 1812.

There is also Vietnam.

What, are you bullshitting me? Did they ask the Borg to tractor-beam Vietnam over to the USA and have it attached to their landmass or what the fuck... Since when is Vietnam US territory? Since when is Vietnam part of the country? I mean the area you point at on the map when you're asked 'USA?', which is all this is about. I said they've never lost a war there. And that's true. If they lost one, they wouldn't be today's most powerful country.

We know blasters can stun people, we don't know that a normal bolt can. Either way it could just hit hard enough to cause instant shock.

How can you get hit at a random body part and lose consciousness because of how hard the hit was? I accept this idea when getting hit in the head, because the brain experiences nice g forces for a moment then. But anywhere? Every time?

Hardly, that's politics. If you ask for an elite unit today from the US which unit would you get? The answer, it depends on what your definition is and what job you need done.

Yep. If I'm a complete idiot, not having any idea, and I say 'I want your best men to protect this piece of shit on that planet', that's enough information for any competent high ranked officer to get the proper unit, no?

Yeah, tell BP that saftey > cash. There are tons of example with that not being true so fuck off.

For the majority of stuff this is still true. Especially for a building or construction inside a modern city. They evacuade buildings which show the possibility of collapsing VERY fast. And they're careful to maintain their bridges.

Do you actually live on this planet?

Except that you have no figures for that so kindly man up and provide some. I'm calling you out. Show me the hit rates for modern soldiers at a range of 20m or shut the fuck up.

No I don't. I erased the text, because in the end, I just don't want to. And I guess I can't even dig up 100% accurate information on that just like that. The only thing I can say is that 20m simply isn't far enough to be unable to effectively hit something within seconds, if you clearly see it. If I'm not misinformed, even a pistol makes sense at this distance. And they're not exactly known for being accurate at greater distances.

[jollyreaper]

Do it anyway. It could only improve your disposition.

I don't see a rebuttal so I guess jollyretard concedes.

Arguing with you is a waste of keystrokes. I'll save my efforts for more interesting people.

[jollyreaper]

To be fair, the lack of camo armor on Endor does seem a bit stupid. The Death Star had been under construction for...what...6 months is it? The shield protecting the DS is a fixed structure probably built prior to the DS's construction being started. This isn't just the Relentless battlegroup dropping some troops on a random world as a patrol force, this is a military outpost that has been established for several months, possibly more. They've certainly had the time to be supplied with camo armor. It's lack is a bit suspect in my view.

There's no telling where stormies might be deployed. You'd think that camo painting machines would be part of their standard kit. Desert planet, spray some tan on the white armor. Jungle planet, put on some green. Or if wonder of wonders you run into a planet with more than one ecosystem, color the armor depending on the region deployed.

[Lusankya]

And really, when you think about it, it seems pretty obvious that if a fuel-laden 747 flies into a Very Tall Building, then the building will fall down; it's just that back in the 90s, nobody ever thought anyone would actually do that.

Weren't the WTC towers designed to withstand this kind of attack? It collapsed because of the heat. Not because of the impact itself (that too, of course, but not solely), because the things were still standing after the impacts.

The WTC towers were designed to withstand impacts from light planes and planes that were landing (and thus low on fuel) - at least, those are the scenarios that they modelled when assessing the risk from plane impacts. They considered fuel-laden 747s to be a lesser threat, as the pilots of planes that had just departed would be less tired and would have a better grip of their surroundings. They most certainly would not have been expected to deliberately fly into the buildings, because that would just be suicide.

As I said earlier, this was fixed when the same chief engineer went and worked on the World Finance Centre in Shanghai. The World Finance Centre is built with a modular design, which means different modules do not rely on the structural integrity of other modules in order to maintain their own. It also has other protection measures to help people in the case of a 747 attack, such as designated "safe floors" which do not have double glazed windows. This increases heating bills, but means that air can circulate on those floors, so in an emergency, people can go to those floors without risking suffocation. Furthermore, it has a variety of extra escape routes which would allow people on higher floors to escape evacuate the building, even if several floors are almost completely destroyed. It also contains better fireproofing. Now, while the modular design might not have been feasible with 1960s-70s materials technology, several of the other measures - such as the "safe floors", escape routes and better fireproofing - would have been possible to implement and would have saved lives during the September 11 attacks.

[Batman]

There's no telling where stormies might be deployed. You'd think that camo painting machines would be part of their standard kit. Desert planet, spray some tan on the white armor. Jungle planet, put on some green. Or if wonder of wonders you run into a planet with more than one ecosystem, color the armor depending on the region deployed.

This is Endor. Why BOTHER? Modern day soldiers wear camo because they have to worry about actually being shot at. The Stormies at Endor...didn't. There's little incentive to worry about camouflage when not only is there little to no evidence for their BEING a threat you might need it against but you ALSO have no particular intention to go foraging into the forest in case you're wrong.

[Norade]

Arguing with you is a waste of keystrokes. I'll save my efforts for more interesting people.

Fuck off, you have yet to make a point in this thread you ignorant shit stain. Either back up you shit or fuck off. This isn't plus one posting land.

The WTC towers were designed to withstand impacts from light planes and planes that were landing (and thus low on fuel) - at least, those are the scenarios that they modelled when assessing the risk from plane impacts. They considered fuel-laden 747s to be a lesser threat, as the pilots of planes that had just departed would be less tired and would have a better grip of their surroundings. They most certainly would not have been expected to deliberately fly into the buildings, because that would just be suicide.

As I said earlier, this was fixed when the same chief engineer went and worked on the World Finance Centre in Shanghai. The World Finance Centre is built with a modular design, which means different modules do not rely on the structural integrity of other modules in order to maintain their own. It also has other protection measures to help people in the case of a 747 attack, such as designated "safe floors" which do not have double glazed windows. This increases heating bills, but means that air can circulate on those floors, so in an emergency, people can go to those floors without risking suffocation. Furthermore, it has a variety of extra escape routes which would allow people on higher floors to escape evacuate the building, even if several floors are almost completely destroyed. It also contains better fireproofing. Now, while the modular design might not have been feasible with 1960s-70s materials technology, several of the other measures - such as the "safe floors", escape routes and better fireproofing - would have been possible to implement and would have saved lives during the September 11 attacks.

Thanks for the info.

[Lusankya]

There's no telling where stormies might be deployed. You'd think that camo painting machines would be part of their standard kit. Desert planet, spray some tan on the white armor. Jungle planet, put on some green. Or if wonder of wonders you run into a planet with more than one ecosystem, color the armor depending on the region deployed.

This is Endor. Why BOTHER? Modern day soldiers wear camo because they have to worry about actually being shot at. The Stormies at Endor...didn't. There's little incentive to worry about camouflage when not only is there little to no evidence for their BEING a threat you might need it against but you ALSO have no particular intention to go foraging into the forest in case you're wrong.

Another point to add to this is that if they considerer the major threat to be the local wildlife, then being as conspicuous as possible would actually be the sensible course to take, since the best way to scare off wild animals is to tromp around looking like a predator that's not scared of anything.