Extremely flawed SW military?

[Batman]

I actually never thought of that, but you're right. So essentially, it would actually have been not only pointless but COUNTERPRODUCTIVE for the Stormies to try to blend in

[jollyreaper]

I can actually accept the gaping holes in the Death Star II problem. Making comparisons between real life shipyards and battlestations is probably a bit problematic but here we go. Ships are assembled in yards. Depending on the technique, you might see modules fabricated in large pieces and everything is stuck together and then welded. If done more conventionally, you have a keel laid and everything else goes together. For finishing work inside, shore power is provided and the ship will operate off such until the main engines are fired off for the first time.

Ok, so the original plan with the DSII -- we didn't see any sort of construction gantries or support structures. We know that material had to be mined and processed for the Death Star. We can assume that they did this out in the Endor asteroid belts and shipped the finished steel to Endor orbit. Possibly the first equipment put in place were fabricator machines and powerplants to run them and the whole process looked like a string of ants shuttling to and fro as the Death Star grew. So freighters would arrive, drop off supplies, head back out to the belt. In modern buildings the cranes that help assemble the structures will often be built inside the elevator shafts. When the structure is complete, the crane is disassembled and then the shaft fitted for the elevator car. Perhaps dual-purpose corridors run through the Death Star.

The reactors supplying power for construction might also be intended as backups in the finished design. The Rebels were probably under the impression that the main reactor was not active. And the reactor being exposed would not be an unreasonable assumption given the half-constructed nature of the Death Star. It would be fully enclosed when complete.

Given that the rebels would want to destroy a target like that, projecting an impenetrable shield around the whole thing seems like a sound idea. And it would make sense that the shield specs were for a giant rebel attack, maybe rated at twice their expected firepower to be on the safe side. Since the Emperor knew the station was already protected against rebel attack, using it as bait seems like a safe bet. They couldn't destroy it anyway, why not use it to lure them to their doom? The only flaw comes in making the shield generator so easy to destroy. That's the real flaw in the plan.

This actually gets to a common problem in most fiction. The enemy so overmatches the hero that the only possible chance for success is for the enemy to either suddenly become stupid or for some silly one-in-a-million longshot to pay off. And it becomes very tough deciding whether the mistake seems a natural part of the story or forced by the author. Pride and arrogance are good ways for the Emperor to fail. Misjudging Vader's love for his son is a good, plausible mistake. Mistaking for his finest legion a group of mooks who get defeated by teddy bears, dumb mistake.

[jollyreaper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzoeEdW-EDQ

How A New Hope should have ended.

"We'll be in range in 30 minutes."

"I say we're in range now."

[jollyreaper]

Fuck off, you have yet to make a point in this thread you ignorant shit stain. Either back up you shit or fuck off. This isn't plus one posting land.

Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my bitch.

[DotS]

Now, while the modular design might not have been feasible with 1960s-70s materials technology, several of the other measures - such as the "safe floors", escape routes and better fireproofing - would have been possible to implement and would have saved lives during the September 11 attacks.

Actually they did just that. They improved fireproofing. And it was found to be even thicker than expected. If I got that straight, it was a core element becoming weak by the fire, deforming and so crushing parts which were responsible of holding the above floors. I did a very quick Wiki check on it before I posted before, to make sure I'm not totally talking bullshit (shut your face, whoever wants to quote this).

This is Endor. Why BOTHER? Modern day soldiers wear camo because they have to worry about actually being shot at. The Stormies at Endor...didn't. There's little incentive to worry about camouflage when not only is there little to no evidence for their BEING a threat you might need it against but you ALSO have no particular intention to go foraging into the forest in case you're wrong.

They expected a battle. For a soldier, a bunch of minutes must be enough to change uniform. So there is no excuse to not put it on. Also, the coloring their white uniforms post is.... yeah... Maybe I misunderstood the purpose of an ISD, but I always thought it's a very well done mix of a battleship and some sort of large troop transport. They have large hangars, they have plenty of ships and troops (doesn't an ISD have some 1000(s?) on it?), they have pretty much everything. What they also have is a ship doing all this being one and a half km in length. Hell, they have a twenty km one. Don't tell me all of these ships just bring their white armor and have to go resupply somewhere if they need a green one.

'Guys, the last shipment was confused. We ordered desert camo armour because we got none, instead we got pink paint. But it's still harder to see against their dark sand than white. So, gentlemen, if you would now put on your masks......'

I actually never thought of that, but you're right. So essentially, it would actually have been not only pointless but COUNTERPRODUCTIVE for the Stormies to try to blend in

No it wouldn't. Your main enemy is the rebels. A thing you keep an eye on is the natives (Ewoks). You don't need to look frightening and be spotted easily, you already do. You are bipedal and large and armored, you look weird and don't have a proper face (plus, your 'face' looks evil). You are noisy, because you don't have soft feet. You could be the most foreign, weirdest and scariest thing they have ever seen (they don't even know what a fucking helmet is and treat the rebels like the weirdness in persona). You fly the noisy, glowing shit (shuttles) above their heads. And you don't even have any idea how they perceive colors and what their environment, including a camo and a standard trooper, looks like to them. But I think this is too much assumption already.

Give in to your anger.

[Lusankya]

Now, while the modular design might not have been feasible with 1960s-70s materials technology, several of the other measures - such as the "safe floors", escape routes and better fireproofing - would have been possible to implement and would have saved lives during the September 11 attacks.

Actually they did just that. They improved fireproofing. And it was found to be even thicker than expected. If I got that straight, it was a core element becoming weak by the fire, deforming and so crushing parts which were responsible of holding the above floors. I did a very quick Wiki check on it before I posted before, to make sure I'm not totally talking bullshit (shut your face, whoever wants to quote this).

Why are you so caught up on the fire? It's as though you think that a fire isn't an inevitable consequence of being hit by a fuel-laden 747. HINT: if a building is not designed to survive the fire caused by being hit with a 747, then it is not actually designed to withstand a hit from a 747.

[jollyreaper]

Couple of points. Police force or military for stormtroopers? Just because we do things a certain way now doesn't mean the Empire couldn't do things differently. It just has to make sense, either from the perspective of being a reasonable idea or a screwed up situation that we can understand coming about due to politics. An army and navy maintaining separate contracts for combat aircraft, developing redundant aircraft, not standardizing on refueling equipment, that sort of stuff is believably stupid. The USAF lobbying Congress to deny the Army the right to operate armed fixed-wing aircraft, believably stupid.

So, if we look at the Nazis, we've got a political party trying to impose its will upon a preexisting civilian government and military force. The SA was the paramilitary arm of the party, used to project force against competing parties. Hitler felt it was too autonomous and wanted more personal loyalty. Himmler's SS was a smaller part of the SA and, after the Night of the Long Knives, the SS remained the chief apparatus of party enforcement.

The Waffen-SS is where things get really interesting. They were armed and equipped like Wermacht troops but were considered far more politically reliable. While the generals all swore oaths of loyalty to Hitler, the independence of the military was considered too risky. The Waffen-SS was considered to be an excellent hedge against a coup by the traditional military branches.

We don't really have any info on Palpy's political backers here. The nutrilogy is a mess in that regard. But he was taking over a thousands of years old republic and trying to remold it into empire. He needed to cultivate vast numbers of ambitious men and women willing to do his bidding. The idea of an organization personally loyal to him overseeing old, established republic bureaucracies with a tradition of being loyal to the government instead of an individual seems reasonable. But there's no word of this in the canon.

One last bit, stormies in white armor makes sense if the role is intimidation. Riot police don't wear urban camo, they wear blue. And their uniforms, in addition to providing protection, are meant to intimidate. Stormies meant as garrison troops are meant to be seen and intimidate. The more they stand out, the more the populace fears. But if they're being sent into a serious battle against an enemy not easily cowed, it would make sense to camo the armor. Every little bit helps.

[Norade]

Fuck off, you have yet to make a point in this thread you ignorant shit stain. Either back up you shit or fuck off. This isn't plus one posting land.

Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my bitch.

Might be closer to true if you could actually debate the points I raised.

[Norade]

Couple of points. Police force or military for stormtroopers? Just because we do things a certain way now doesn't mean the Empire couldn't do things differently. It just has to make sense, either from the perspective of being a reasonable idea or a screwed up situation that we can understand coming about due to politics. An army and navy maintaining separate contracts for combat aircraft, developing redundant aircraft, not standardizing on refueling equipment, that sort of stuff is believably stupid. The USAF lobbying Congress to deny the Army the right to operate armed fixed-wing aircraft, believably stupid.

So, if we look at the Nazis, we've got a political party trying to impose its will upon a preexisting civilian government and military force. The SA was the paramilitary arm of the party, used to project force against competing parties. Hitler felt it was too autonomous and wanted more personal loyalty. Himmler's SS was a smaller part of the SA and, after the Night of the Long Knives, the SS remained the chief apparatus of party enforcement.

The Waffen-SS is where things get really interesting. They were armed and equipped like Wermacht troops but were considered far more politically reliable. While the generals all swore oaths of loyalty to Hitler, the independence of the military was considered too risky. The Waffen-SS was considered to be an excellent hedge against a coup by the traditional military branches.

We don't really have any info on Palpy's political backers here. The nutrilogy is a mess in that regard. But he was taking over a thousands of years old republic and trying to remold it into empire. He needed to cultivate vast numbers of ambitious men and women willing to do his bidding. The idea of an organization personally loyal to him overseeing old, established republic bureaucracies with a tradition of being loyal to the government instead of an individual seems reasonable. But there's no word of this in the canon.

One last bit, stormies in white armor makes sense if the role is intimidation. Riot police don't wear urban camo, they wear blue. And their uniforms, in addition to providing protection, are meant to intimidate. Stormies meant as garrison troops are meant to be seen and intimidate. The more they stand out, the more the populace fears. But if they're being sent into a serious battle against an enemy not easily cowed, it would make sense to camo the armor. Every little bit helps.

A few more posts like this and you might just change my mind about you.

[Batman]

This is Endor. Why BOTHER? Modern day soldiers wear camo because they have to worry about actually being shot at. The Stormies at Endor...didn't. There's little incentive to worry about camouflage when not only is there little to no evidence for their BEING a threat you might need it against but you ALSO have no particular intention to go foraging into the forest in case you're wrong.

They expected a battle.

As evidenced by-you saying so. They EXPECTED a one sided curbstomping given they were facing a handful of rebel commandoes and a bunch of tribals and THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED until Chewie hijacked that walker.

For a soldier, a bunch of minutes must be enough to change uniform. So there is no excuse to not put it on.

Um-the stormtroopers on Endor WERE in uniform.Namely, stormtrooper armor. That you don't LIKE that being there duty uniform is YOUR problem.

Also, the coloring their white uniforms post is.... yeah... Maybe I misunderstood the purpose of an ISD, but I always thought it's a very well done mix of a battleship and some sort of large troop transport.

Actually it's more of a light cruiser/destroyer analogue wrote large but then expecting you to understand that was probably too much to ask.

They have large hangars, they have plenty of ships and troops (doesn't an ISD have some 1000(s?) on it?), they have pretty much everything.

You could actually easily house the space wing of an ISD on a modern day (WW2, if you had to) aircraft carrier. The carrier aspect makes up a miniscule part of an ISD's volume.

What they also have is a ship doing all this being one and a half km in length. Hell, they have a twenty km one. Don't tell me all of these ships just bring their white armor and have to go resupply somewhere if they need a green one.

Why would they NEED camo armour at Endor?

'Guys, the last shipment was confused. We ordered desert camo armour because we got none, instead we got pink paint. But it's still harder to see against their dark sand than white. So, gentlemen, if you would now put on your masks......'

Happened routinely in real life.

I actually never thought of that, but you're right. So essentially, it would actually have been not only pointless but COUNTERPRODUCTIVE for the Stormies to try to blend in

No it wouldn't. Your main enemy is the rebels.

Wrong. You already know WHERE they'll pop up and, to a degree, WHEN they'll pop up, AND they EXPECT to see a visible imperial presence. The Imperials DON'T need to hide from the rebels because the rebels are coming for a fixed installaion ANYWAY.

A thing you keep an eye on is the natives (Ewoks).

Who said anything about the Ewoks?

[OmegaChief]

Just to go over a point about somthing that wasn't resolved entirly earlier.

DotS your exact words were:

The US have never been beaten on their own territory. No military force in the world could actually successfully conquer the USA.

While the latter part of the statment is up for debate, I'm fairly certian the US were beaten on thier own terratory in the war of 1812, as hostile tropps made it at least as far south as Washington DC, which as mentioned previous had the building burning happen there.

Though perhaps you meant the modern US? It's best to clarify such things

[Norade]

Just to go over a point about somthing that wasn't resolved entirly earlier.

DotS your exact words were:

The US have never been beaten on their own territory. No military force in the world could actually successfully conquer the USA.

While the latter part of the statment is up for debate, I'm fairly certian the US were beaten on thier own terratory in the war of 1812, as hostile tropps made it at least as far south as Washington DC, which as mentioned previous had the building burning happen there.

Though perhaps you meant the modern US? It's best to clarify such things

According to him that wasn't a defeat, they truced out so it counts as a draw.

Same with Pearl Harbor not being a loss.

[jollyreaper]

Actually it's more of a light cruiser/destroyer analogue wrote large but then expecting you to understand that was probably too much to ask.

No, the ISD is rather unlike any naval ship we've ever seen. There's a bit of a gulf between what the original crew imagined and put on screen versus what the fluff writers later came up with. Some of the ideas may have been embryonic but present during filming, other parts may have been retconned later.

The consensus seen in the fluff tends to be that a single ISD represents an entire planetary invasion force.

The term originated with the idea of a warship powerful enough to destroy entire star systems, and did not necessarily indicate a destroyer type vessel.

Which is somewhat hyperbolic given that there's no accepted definition of what "destroying a star system" means. An acceptable definition could probably be "pacify a star system" or "reduce all organized military resistance." Destroy orbital defenses, bombard the planet until it's back in the stone age, land occupation troops.

How many troops does it take to garrison a planet? Some sources say there's 10k stormies on the ship. Depends on the size of the population I guess.

A star destroyer seems to basically be a battleship, carrier, and amphibious assault ship all in one package. But the fluff and EU are very inconsistent with depicting just how these vessels should be used.

[DotS]

Jesus Christ..................

if a building is not designed to survive the fire caused by being hit with a 747, then it is not actually designed to withstand a hit from a 747.

Well...

Engineers who participated in the design of the World Trade Center have stated, since the attack, that the Towers were designed to withstand jetliner collisions. For example, Leslie Robertson, who is featured on many documentaries about the attack, said he "designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it."

Actually the 767 which ultimately hit the building was slightly larger, but that doesn't matter now. What matters is that it was designed to still stand after receiving an impact of a 707 and maybe even more than one. They fucked up at the fire part. Which doesn't mean that the design couldn't withstand the impact or the thing is not designed for such a thing at all. A car is designed for the driver to survive a crash. Turns out he doesn't when he is stuck in the car and burns to death (this happens regularly). But this doesn't mean that there were no crashtests.

Um-the stormtroopers on Endor WERE in uniform.Namely, stormtrooper armor. That you don't LIKE that being there duty uniform is YOUR problem.

Read, I wrote CHANGE the uniform. No excuse to not put on the camo. Doesn't matter if it's their main duty uniform or not. They have camo shit. So you might expect them to actually use it if they already got it, just for such an occasion as Endor, which is pretty much the most important operation ever. You got most of your enemy in one fleet which can't escape, you got a potential new Sith which could really kick ass, you got a rebel commando team consisting of a wanted man, a wanted rebel leader princess (a political leader!) and others AND the Emperor himself is participating in that battle, as well as the most important battle station ever built and afair a very deadly squad of ISDs with some Super-ISD.

There is no room for bad preparation or even the slightest unnecessary risk. Fuck the 'Im the Empire, I has white armor, see me from 5km away lol' idea when it's an operation of this importance. There is pretty much everything that matters (of both sides!) at one place. You better make sure this operation goes well. And by goes well I mean not have the dumbass AT-ST guy let Chewie in. Or Officer Dipshit letting the rebels in. Or losing my flagship. Or have my elite legion (a legion consists of 1000s of soldiers) get their pants pulled down and raped in the ass by teddy bears.

Endor was a clusterfuck whereever you look. It's like having a really thick glove and a poisonous snake and thinking it can't bite you, because the hand you annoy it with is safe, before it bites you right in the face.

Actually it's more of a light cruiser/destroyer analogue wrote large but then expecting you to understand that was probably too much to ask.

I'd like to see sources and maybe even a list there, so I can see what in the SW universe is a destroyer, a cruiser and so on. An ISD's role isn't even close to either one of these ship types in real life. I don't think I'm completely wrong when I call an ISD a warship (a destroyer is a warship too, dumbfuck) or a carrier (it carries troops and lots of spacecraft)

Why would they NEED camo armour at Endor?

To not be spotted that easily. You know, it's a good thing to not be spotted easily in a firefight, idiot.......

Happened routinely in real life.

Where logistics isn't on par with the Empire's yet, which has ships 5 times the size of an aircraft carrier (and more...) and should be able to bring much more shit with them. Camo uniforms for example. Just in case Vader says 'I want this planet occupied' and they resist well or something..... Remember? You're an army... You're sent to battles and to attack people and worlds..... You know? Might be smart to bring things as the uniforms for quick and effective deployment of the ship and it's troops without having to go resupply....

The Imperials DON'T need to hide from the rebels because the rebels are coming for a fixed installaion ANYWAY.

I might accept the idea that they had white Troopers guard the dish and shit, to make it seem as if the Empire doesn't expect anything coming. The fact that there aren't camoflaged Troopers at all is a flaw.

[Bakustra]

There are significant problems with calling Star Destroyers "battleships" or "carriers" (There are significant problems with using modern naval nomenclature period, but that is another matter). Firstly, a Star Destroyer carries 72 fightercraft and a relative handful of shuttles, launches and barges. That sounds impressive, roughly equal to a modern carrier wing!

Then you realize that a Nimitz-class carrier is only 338 meters in length, with a breadth of 77 meters, and a draft of 11.3 meters fully loaded. By comparison, a Star Destroyer is 1601 meters long, with a width of 1171 meters at the stern, and a height of 311 meters at the stern. Overall, a Star Destroyer has 330 times the volume of a Nimitz.

Now, let's assume that a Star Destroyer can only achieve 50% of what a Nimitz can in terms of fighter capacity, because of the rigors of space travel or whatever. They still would carry 11,880 fighters, and hundreds of shuttles and barges! They literally have 0.3% of a Nimitz's capacity for carrying fighters. Further, Star Destroyers carry heavy turbolasers and ion cannons, the second heaviest starship weapons we have seen. The definition of a carrier generally precludes them from carrying such weapons (and that is part of why the Soviet/Russian Kuznetsov-class is an aviation cruiser rather than a carrier).

The problem with declaring Star Destroyers "battleships" is simple: what about the Executor? Is it a battleship, too? Why, then, do battleships range in size from 1.6 km long to 19 km long? Where are the Imperial destroyers and cruisers at Endor? Furthermore, do they really perform the role of a battleship? In ANH, they operate alone or in small groups. In ESB, they escort the larger Executor. In ROTJ, they act as part of a combined fleet with the Executor. In ANH, they act as cruisers, while in ESB and ROTJ, they act as destroyers, insofar as they can be said to be equivalents to modern Earth ships.

[Sea Skimmer]

Actually the 767 which ultimately hit the building was slightly larger, but that doesn't matter now. What matters is that it was designed to still stand after receiving an impact of a 707 and maybe even more than one. They fucked up at the fire part. Which doesn't mean that the design couldn't withstand the impact or the thing is not designed for such a thing at all. A car is designed for the driver to survive a crash. Turns out he doesn't when he is stuck in the car and burns to death (this happens regularly). But this doesn't mean that there were no crashtests.

You know, they design cars to survive crashes at specific angles at specific speeds against specific other objects, usually a barrier representing a car of a similar weight, and they test that. They don’t just say ‘the driver will not die in a crash’. Likewise an automotive fuel system is required to be crash tested under similar specific conditions. It should not leak or burn when tested to that standard. Fuel system fires usually result from much more violent impacts, like a 70mph rear end collision with a truck.

The World Trade Center towers were designed to withstand a single 707 impact, under specific conditions. Those conditions were a 180mph speed and an airplane nearly empty of fuel. These conditions were chosen because they represented a 707 which was attempting to land at a local airport in bad weather, the most likely collision scenario envisioned at the time. If the plane still had fuel, it would just keep waiting for the weather to clear at a safe altitude. This is far different from being hit by a much heavier plane at nearly three times higher speed which is also almost fully fueled. Its amazing the towers kept standing for as long as they did, allowing so many tens of thousands of people to escape the entire WTC complex.

[Batman]

Um-the stormtroopers on Endor WERE in uniform.Namely, stormtrooper armor. That you don't LIKE that being there duty uniform is YOUR problem.

Read, I wrote CHANGE the uniform.

My bad.

No excuse to not put on the camo. Doesn't matter if it's their main duty uniform or not. They have camo shit.

They do? Funny, I don't think the movie nor the novelization nor any OTHER EU source mention that.

So you might expect them to actually use it if they already got it, just for such an occasion as Endor, which is pretty much the most important operation ever.

Where the opposition consisted of a dozen rebel commandos and teddy bears with slings and bows. And as I said, who says they had it in the first place? We know such gear EXISTS, nothing more. From the Empire's perspective the troops on Endor hardly needed it because the opposition was essentially inexistant.

There is no room for bad preparation or even the slightest unnecessary risk. Fuck the 'Im the Empire, I has white armor, see me from 5km away lol' idea when it's an operation of this importance.

Why? They outgunned AND outnumbered the opposition six ways from sunday AND were fighting from a fixed position anyway.

There is pretty much everything that matters (of both sides!) at one place.

Virtually all of it in space.

You better make sure this operation goes well.

They did, within the mission parameters as they expected them.

And by goes well I mean not have the dumbass AT-ST guy let Chewie in.

I wouldn't exactly call 'being bodily hauled out of the vehicle and being hauled Valen knows where' 'letting in'. Locking the hatch WOULD have been a smart thing to do but I wouldn't be surprised if modern armoured vehicle crews did the same in what as far as they know is a no/low threat environment.

Or Officer Dipshit letting the rebels in.

That WAS pretty DEM, I have to admit.

Or losing my flagship.

Yeah. Taking more than half a minute to get the ship back under control AND change course so it doesn't crash into the battlestation it was sitting practically on top of is TOTALLY inexcusable.

Or have my elite legion (a legion consists of 1000s of soldiers) get their pants pulled down and raped in the ass by teddy bears.

A pity that never happened. The Imps were handing the Ewoks their asses until Chewie managed to snag that AT-ST.

Endor was a clusterfuck wherever you look.

Because-you say so.

Actually it's more of a light cruiser/destroyer analogue wrote large but then expecting you to understand that was probably too much to ask.

I'd like to see sources and maybe even a list there, so I can see what in the SW universe is a destroyer, a cruiser and so on. An ISD's role isn't even close to either one of these ship types in real life.

It is pretty much EXACTLY that. See Bakustra's post.

I don't think I'm completely wrong when I call an ISD a warship (a destroyer is a warship too, dumbfuck) or a carrier (it carries troops and lots of spacecraft)

No it DOESN'T carry lots of spacecraft (and ships carrying troops AREN'T carriers, they're troop transports). An ISD's fighter wing would comfortably fit on a WW2 aircraft carrier. They're destroyer/light cruiser analogues that thanks to their comparatively enormous size can CARRY what by modern standards is a sizeable parasite craft complement and troop contingent.
And I KNOW they are warships fuckface. You called them BATTLEships and they're not.

Why would they NEED camo armour at Endor?

To not be spotted that easily. You know, it's a good thing to not be spotted easily in a firefight, idiot.......

I didn't ask why it would have been USEFUL. I asked why they would have NEEDED it. When you're up against an enemy whose weapons you're all but immune to and you massively OUTNUMBER the ones who can actually hurt you (i.e., the rebel commandos) camouflage becomes a lot less important. And again, you are blithely assuming they had camo armour/camo gear actually AVAILABLE.

The Imperials DON'T need to hide from the rebels because the rebels are coming for a fixed installation ANYWAY.

I might accept the idea that they had white Troopers guard the dish and shit, to make it seem as if the Empire doesn't expect anything coming. The fact that there aren't camouflaged Troopers at all is a flaw.

Err-there are. Just not in the OT.

[Stofsk]

There are significant problems with calling Star Destroyers "battleships" or "carriers" (There are significant problems with using modern naval nomenclature period, but that is another matter).

I don't know why anyone tries to designate them with a wet navy role. They're called Star Destroyers. Shouldn't that be enough?

The problem with declaring Star Destroyers "battleships" is simple: what about the Executor? Is it a battleship, too? Why, then, do battleships range in size from 1.6 km long to 19 km long? Where are the Imperial destroyers and cruisers at Endor? Furthermore, do they really perform the role of a battleship? In ANH, they operate alone or in small groups. In ESB, they escort the larger Executor. In ROTJ, they act as part of a combined fleet with the Executor. In ANH, they act as cruisers, while in ESB and ROTJ, they act as destroyers, insofar as they can be said to be equivalents to modern Earth ships.

The part that will blow your mind is how in the OT three characters call the Executor a Star Destroyer.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Read, I wrote CHANGE the uniform. No excuse to not put on the camo. Doesn't matter if it's their main duty uniform or not. They have camo shit. So you might expect them to actually use it if they already got it, just for such an occasion as Endor, which is pretty much the most important operation ever. You got most of your enemy in one fleet which can't escape, you got a potential new Sith which could really kick ass, you got a rebel commando team consisting of a wanted man, a wanted rebel leader princess (a political leader!) and others AND the Emperor himself is participating in that battle, as well as the most important battle station ever built and afair a very deadly squad of ISDs with some Super-ISD.

Why do you assume the Stormtroopers were in on the plan? If you take Palpatines evil plot out of the equation, you have a legion of Stormtroopers playing mallcop for six months or more, at an installation in the ass-end of nowhere, that nobody even knows about, and where the threat is the local wildlife combined with occasional, nusance-level, incursions by curious primatives, both of which you WANT to be visible to, so they stay away.

And on top of all of that, if there IS any action, it'll be in space anyway, so why bother with the cammo, again?

[Shroom Man 777]

Hrm, maybe Endor was full of giant fuck ugly monstrosities. Like, space bears. When you're walking around in Alaska or something, you don't try to be quiet and blend in, because then you might bump into a bear that's not expecting to see you, and you'll surprise it and then the bear will eat you. So when you're walking around in Alaska, you're supposed to make noises and shit so the bears can hear you and avoid you, instead of getting startled and eating you. Maybe that's why the stormtroopers wore white, so they wouldn't get into unfortunate accidents with freaky Endorian monstrosities whose viciousness is probably detailed in some shitty piece of Expanded Universe crap.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Shroomie, look up Gorax and Boar-Wolf. You're practically ignorant of Star Wars EU and you hit it.

PS He can't even claim George Lucas never intended for siuch a thing to be on Endor since he included one in Caravan of Courage.

[Aaron]

Why do you assume the Stormtroopers were in on the plan? If you take Palpatines evil plot out of the equation, you have a legion of Stormtroopers playing mallcop for six months or more, at an installation in the ass-end of nowhere, that nobody even knows about, and where the threat is the local wildlife combined with occasional, nusance-level, incursions by curious primatives, both of which you WANT to be visible to, so they stay away.

And on top of all of that, if there IS any action, it'll be in space anyway, so why bother with the cammo, again?

When the real-life military does operations like this (say operations in the Arctic) its still done in full camo and kit, you train as you would fight. And seeing as there is bugger all for them to do on Endor, then they may as well be training. We also don't put on blaze orange and bang pots together to keep things like polar bears away, we bring along a shotgun and shoot them if they come at us.

I'm sorry but this whole tangent is pretty dumb from the perspective of a soldier and modern day operations.

[PainRack]

I can't think of one quickly. Help me out.

Phillipines. Hell, last decade, Indonesia comissioned a mission to explore their nautical territory and discovered a hundred new islands in their territory.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a total idiot when it comes to math and statistics. But shouldn't, say, 3 Troopers make a pretty sure hit after each one fired 3 times? I doubt our rebels get hit that often, compared to how many fucking blaster bolts are flying around in each fight or chase scene.

Each event is independent. Its STILL 1/3 of a chance.

No I don't. I erased the text, because in the end, I just don't want to. And I guess I can't even dig up 100% accurate information on that just like that. The only thing I can say is that 20m simply isn't far enough to be unable to effectively hit something within seconds, if you clearly see it. If I'm not misinformed, even a pistol makes sense at this distance. And they're not exactly known for being accurate at greater distances.

You do know that pistol accuracy rates for cops and other such personnel measure in the 10 percentile?

They expected a battle. For a soldier, a bunch of minutes must be enough to change uniform. So there is no excuse to not put it on. Also, the coloring their white uniforms post is.... yeah... Maybe I misunderstood the purpose of an ISD, but I always thought it's a very well done mix of a battleship and some sort of large troop transport. They have large hangars, they have plenty of ships and troops (doesn't an ISD have some 1000(s?) on it?), they have pretty much everything. What they also have is a ship doing all this being one and a half km in length. Hell, they have a twenty km one. Don't tell me all of these ships just bring their white armor and have to go resupply somewhere if they need a green one.

'Guys, the last shipment was confused. We ordered desert camo armour because we got none, instead we got pink paint. But it's still harder to see against their dark sand than white. So, gentlemen, if you would now put on your masks......'

The British, Canucks, Japanese and whatnot have deployed with jungle camo to Iraq/Afghanistan before...... For the Japs, it was the entire tour of duty.

Its..... stupid, because we HAVE examples of camo schemes for stormtroopers/Imperial army and the other issue is that stormtroopers armour needs to be visible so as to show presence. Why not ask if SWAT teams should be deploying camo, or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police?

And the Chinese Gong An is more than enough evidence to show that not every state subscribes to the Western concept of the police being a non military force. The Imperial Stormtroopers happens to be a tool of state, a military force designed for internal security and deliberately optimised as such. Whoopee, we see states such as Indonesia and Malaysia design their armies along such lines. And they are STILL capable of fighting a conventional campaign too.

[Shroom Man 777]

When the real-life military does operations like this (say operations in the Arctic) its still done in full camo and kit, you train as you would fight. And seeing as there is bugger all for them to do on Endor, then they may as well be training. We also don't put on blaze orange and bang pots together to keep things like polar bears away, we bring along a shotgun and shoot them if they come at us.

I'm sorry but this whole tangent is pretty dumb from the perspective of a soldier and modern day operations.

Well, yeah. The reason to stay visible and be noisy to avoid polar bears in the Alaskan woods is sound, IF you're some guy walking in the woods. But you don't expect Green Berets or something to come in wearing those stupid bright orange shit-jackets. That's just stupid, and the rationalizations are kind of also, y'know, kinda dumb.

I think the Emperor was not as omniscient as he figured he was. When he said "elite troops", he thought they were elite, but really those Stormtroopers on Endor were probably the equivalent of National Guard shmucks, too lazy to wear the proper camouflage, or maybe through shitty logistics they got issued shitty camo (like how in GENERATION KILL, they get issued NBC gear in woodland camouflage though they're in fucking Iraq). Would you have elite spec ops guys guarding some shitty base in the middle of nowhere, as oppose to sending elite spec ops guys in elite spec ops dangerous front line combat missions? The guards they had guarding Endor were just, well, guards. A bunch of bored, inexperienced fatties assigned to a seemingly easy job of guarding some facility in the middle of nowhere that nobody will bother.

It's not like the Emperor was some awesome micromanager that he handpicked the troops to be stationed on Endor.

[Knife]

Why do you assume the Stormtroopers were in on the plan? If you take Palpatines evil plot out of the equation, you have a legion of Stormtroopers playing mallcop for six months or more, at an installation in the ass-end of nowhere, that nobody even knows about, and where the threat is the local wildlife combined with occasional, nusance-level, incursions by curious primatives, both of which you WANT to be visible to, so they stay away.

And on top of all of that, if there IS any action, it'll be in space anyway, so why bother with the cammo, again?

When the real-life military does operations like this (say operations in the Arctic) its still done in full camo and kit, you train as you would fight. And seeing as there is bugger all for them to do on Endor, then they may as well be training. We also don't put on blaze orange and bang pots together to keep things like polar bears away, we bring along a shotgun and shoot them if they come at us.

I'm sorry but this whole tangent is pretty dumb from the perspective of a soldier and modern day operations.

While I tend to agree with your sentiment, they had a pretty good idea in the beginning. Stormtroopers don't need camo on Endor, who are they hiding from in the huge defensive perimeter around the bunker? No one. They're primary job is urban or space where green and brown stripes are useless, on Endor, having them is useless.