Zeon as a power in the Battletech Universe

[Zor]

As a reverse of the ongoing thread.

In this thread, just before the one year war, the Principality of Zeon and the Jupiter energy fleet is teleported to the battletech universe as of the year 3050 by Q. They are deposited the Periphery in a star system some 600 LY from sol, in an area which, if you were to draw a line between it and Earth would go roughly along the boarder of the free worlds league and the Lyran Commonwealth before the rise of the Federated Commonwealth. Said starsystem has a yellow dwarf sun, a venus like earthsized planet at the right posistion to serve as a Lagrange anchor, a jupiter like planet for their helium 3 needs and an asteriod belt roughly at the same distance from the primary as Mars is from sol, as well as a few largely uninteresting planets.

The Zeons have also been provided with the design specifications for Kearny-Fuchida Drive as well as having a full database on the history and politics of the Inner Sphere. They are also provided with 6 Potemkin class Spacecraft with a full complement of Dropships (which they have the plans for).

How much of an impact will the Principality be able to make on the Battletech Universe?

Zor

[SapphireFox]

That all depends on if Zeon is still nuke happy or not.

If not then I would say that Zeon would quickly become a major player on the galactic scene given their capacity for warship production greatly exceeds most of the successor states. The number of MS they can field would easily be on par or exceeding most periphery states mechs. I picture Zeon capturing a number of systems in a blitzkrieg style fight but having to stop or slow down a great deal when the number of soldiers gets too thin.

In space the "Minovsky radar screw" would bring the range of the Successor states few warships down to the close visual detection range that Zeon excels in. The superior number of Zeon warships would soon leave them quickly in control of open space. Once in orbit their is little to prevent the orbital bombardment of military targets. This would leave a weakened force more easily able to be conquered.

The only problem I see is in the numbers of soldiers and tanks they can field in to battle. The Successor states should be able to field a far larger number of infantry and armored vehicles, possibly swamping their Zeon equivalents. Likely if the Zabi family is still leading the Principality of Zeon they will over reach themselves in their greed for power.


If they are still nuke happy then it will quickly become an everyone vs Zeon fight once word gets out. Given that the OP states that they have a full database on the inner sphere then the likely hood of knowing about the ares convention is great. Most likely they would use that to their advantage in staying conventional and taking the inner sphere one state at a time.

On a side note, does the ares convention say anything about poison gas? If not then Zeon would likely use it to equalize the infantry number disparity. Also it would easier to keep a conquered population subservient through fear if you actually have a WMD you can use without worry.

[Zor]

On a side note, does the ares convention say anything about poison gas? If not then Zeon would likely use it to equalize the infantry number disparity. Also it would easier to keep a conquered population subservient through fear if you actually have a WMD you can use without worry.

The Principality did use gas to a large degree in the One Year War, largely to depopulate space colonies

Zor

[RhoOmicronMu]

Well, since you've given them specs on some unspecified dropship, you've just obsoleted Helium 3 fusion.

On a side note, does the ares convention say anything about poison gas? If not then Zeon would likely use it to equalize the infantry number disparity. Also it would easier to keep a conquered population subservient through fear if you actually have a WMD you can use without worry.

Nerve gas attacks are seen as quite unsporting. See Kali Liao's rogue nerve gas attack and the Word of Blake's nerve gas attack on the Knights of the Inner Sphere. Ass you can see all of these fellows just got nerve gassed.

The more atrocities Zeon commits the more the Warden Clans are going to be saying, "We told you so, but no you didn't listen."

[Commander 598]

The person who carried out those depopulations wasn't exactly a popular person and Zeon is fairly big on good old fashioned Prussian Martial Pride. Furthermore, gasing anything planetside that isn't a sealed bunker would likely be an enormous waste of time and effort.

I question whether they would even bother to fight planet side. They hold a vast Naval and production superiority over the other powers and could quite simply go Abh on the matter, which would also be playing on Zeon Daikun's orbital supremacy "beliefs". Their only reason for going Earthside in the OYW is to kill the Federation who were holed up in an impenetrable bunker complex.

[SapphireFox]

Well, since you've given them specs on some unspecified dropship, you've just obsoleted Helium 3 fusion.

Exactly how would them having dropship specs obsolete a Minovsky cycle fusion reactor? Nothing I have seen would say that BT mechs or craft have that much more powerful reactors then their equivalent Zeon counterpart. Even if they were a bit more powerful I am not too sure that they would give up on Minovsky cycle reactors if for no other reason then to produce the Minovsky particles for some of their better weapons and tactics.(IE mega particle beam weapons and the "Minovsky radar screw")

If they used anything from the specs it would probably be better spaceship engines. Warship speed and acceleration is probably the only thing that BT has really going for it in space.

The person who carried out those depopulations wasn't exactly a popular person and Zeon is fairly big on good old fashioned Prussian Martial Pride. Furthermore, gasing anything planetside that isn't a sealed bunker would likely be an enormous waste of time and effort.

I question whether they would even bother to fight planet side. They hold a vast Naval and production superiority over the other powers and could quite simply go Abh on the matter, which would also be playing on Zeon Daikun's orbital supremacy "beliefs". Their only reason for going Earthside in the OYW is to kill the Federation who were holed up in an impenetrable bunker complex.

If gassing was such a waste of time then explain why we have such weapons in the modern era. If the gas eventually dissipates in the atmosphere then so much the better, you don't want it lingering too long and harming your own people.

As for the Abh idea. Well it is a possibility, but you would still need to go to a planet to acquire both atmosphere. Unless you want to end up in a spaceballs kind of situation and soil to plant crops in unless you don't want to eat.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I question whether they would even bother to fight planet side. They hold a vast Naval and production superiority over the other powers and could quite simply go Abh on the matter, which would also be playing on Zeon Daikun's orbital supremacy "beliefs". Their only reason for going Earthside in the OYW is to kill the Federation who were holed up in an impenetrable bunker complex.

If it's the Principality of Zeon then Zeon Zum Deikun has already been assassinated and Degwin Sodo Zabi is running the show; under Deikun it was only the Republic of Zeon. Degwin Sodo Zabi didn't care about Deikun's ideology, even Kycilia only believed in his Newtypes and nothing else. The only people who were ever in power that actually cared about Deikun's tenets were Haman Karn and his own son.

[Commander 598]

I question whether they would even bother to fight planet side. They hold a vast Naval and production superiority over the other powers and could quite simply go Abh on the matter, which would also be playing on Zeon Daikun's orbital supremacy "beliefs". Their only reason for going Earthside in the OYW is to kill the Federation who were holed up in an impenetrable bunker complex.

If it's the Principality of Zeon then Zeon Zum Deikun has already been assassinated and Degwin Sodo Zabi is running the show; under Deikun it was only the Republic of Zeon. Degwin Sodo Zabi didn't care about Deikun's ideology, even Kycilia only believed in his Newtypes and nothing else. The only people who were ever in power that actually cared about Deikun's tenets were Haman Karn and his own son.

I think it's been shown that there are plenty of people who still believe it. It's like secretly assassinating Hitler and taking over after he's done all the political leg work of building Nazi Germany, the place will still be full of Nazis. Furthermore, Haman isn't exactly a nobody and Char's still likely to kill off the Zabi's anyway. Deikun's views were popular enough that Spacenoid uprisings kept using variations of them for damn near a century.

If gassing was such a waste of time then explain why we have such weapons in the modern era.

Because the old stockpiles haven't gone bad yet, because we don't possess the ability to casually orbitally bombard planetside targets, because we don't possess the ability to casually ignore things on the Earth, and because only small sections of our fighting forces are capable of fighting in such an environment as opposed to Btech and Gundam where a sizable quantity of fighting forces are vacuum sealed mechs, vacuum sealed powered armor, and spaceborne infantry with armored vacuum sealed space suits as standard issue kit. Pretty much the only reason they'd have to use it is if Gihren still wants to be Space Hitler.

Well it is a possibility, but you would still need to go to a planet to acquire both atmosphere. Unless you want to end up in a spaceballs kind of situation and soil to plant crops in unless you don't want to eat.

No you don't. Literally you could get all of that, plus water, from lunar soil and just about any available asteroid. The only thing they'd need from a planet is H3 from a gas giant.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I think it's been shown that there are plenty of people who still believe it. It's like secretly assassinating Hitler and taking over after he's done all the political leg work of building Nazi Germany, the place will still be full of Nazis. Furthermore, Haman isn't exactly a nobody and Char's still likely to kill off the Zabi's anyway. Deikun's views were popular enough that Spacenoid uprisings kept using variations of them for damn near a century.

Did you even read what I said before you decided to post?

The only people who were ever in power that actually cared about Deikun's tenets were Haman Karn and his own son.

I mentioned both Char and Haman as being powerful influences of Zeon. I also clarified that it was the people in power who did not care, this does not preclude the average person from caring, but in a military dictatorship it is their opinions that matter.

[RhoOmicronMu]

Exactly how would them having dropship specs obsolete a Minovsky cycle fusion reactor? Nothing I have seen would say that BT mechs or craft have that much more powerful reactors then their equivalent Zeon counterpart.

Last I looked, Hydrogen-Hydrogen/Proton-Proton fusion produces significantly more energy than Dueterium-He3 fusion. A quick check on wiki shows 26.73 MeV vs 14.7 MeV. There is also the convenience issue. Dropships can land next to a lake, stick a big hose in, and crack the hydrogen out of the water. Amusingly enough, the first example that comes to mind is from Far Country. It's also convenient to be able to separate any spare water a ship is carrying for more fuel and oxygen. Do we know how or why Minovsky cycle fusion differs from regular Dueterium-He3 fusion?

Even if they were a bit more powerful I am not too sure that they would give up on Minovsky cycle reactors if for no other reason then to produce the Minovsky particles for some of their better weapons and tactics.(IE mega particle beam weapons and the "Minovsky radar screw")

A backup reactor for exotic beam weapons and ecm makes sense. They'll need something to balance out Battletech's rather wanked dropship and warship ECM. Personally, I don't really think Battletech's ECM being that powerful is reasonable, but it works game balance wise.

[lord Martiya]

I mentioned both Char and Haman as being powerful influences of Zeon. I also clarified that it was the people in power who did not care, this does not preclude the average person from caring, but in a military dictatorship it is their opinions that matter.

Before Loum, Char was just a lieutenant piloting a red Zaku. At this moment, he is NOT a powerful influence, and he won't be one until he gets the occasion to single handedly destroy a small squadron of enemy battleships. While he could arguably influence Garma Zabi (who consider him his best friend), the youngest Zabi has very little power and influence.
Also, on Daikun's ideals, Gihren listened too much to his own propaganda: where Degwin and Kycylia saw in them just a nice banner and Dozle doesn't seem to actually care (he apparently fought to protect his family), Gihren believe in their most extremistic version, resulting in his genocidal plan.

[Stark]

Last I looked, Hydrogen-Hydrogen/Proton-Proton fusion produces significantly more energy than Dueterium-He3 fusion. A quick check on wiki shows 26.73 MeV vs 14.7 MeV. There is also the convenience issue. Dropships can land next to a lake, stick a big hose in, and crack the hydrogen out of the water. Amusingly enough, the first example that comes to mind is from Far Country. It's also convenient to be able to separate any spare water a ship is carrying for more fuel and oxygen. Do we know how or why Minovsky cycle fusion differs from regular Dueterium-He3 fusion?

Good thing Gundams never overheat even in space, I guess.

[Commander 598]

I think it's been shown that there are plenty of people who still believe it. It's like secretly assassinating Hitler and taking over after he's done all the political leg work of building Nazi Germany, the place will still be full of Nazis. Furthermore, Haman isn't exactly a nobody and Char's still likely to kill off the Zabi's anyway. Deikun's views were popular enough that Spacenoid uprisings kept using variations of them for damn near a century.

Did you even read what I said before you decided to post?

Yeah, I thought it was pretty irrelevant to be honest especially considering that Degwin is little more than Gihren's puppet. Furthermore this whole thing is a minor secondary issue and with primary issue being that there's simply no reason to go planetside.

[RhoOmicronMu]

Last I looked, Hydrogen-Hydrogen/Proton-Proton fusion produces significantly more energy than Dueterium-He3 fusion. A quick check on wiki shows 26.73 MeV vs 14.7 MeV. There is also the convenience issue. Dropships can land next to a lake, stick a big hose in, and crack the hydrogen out of the water. Amusingly enough, the first example that comes to mind is from Far Country. It's also convenient to be able to separate any spare water a ship is carrying for more fuel and oxygen. Do we know how or why Minovsky cycle fusion differs from regular Dueterium-He3 fusion?

Good thing Gundams never overheat even in space, I guess.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Yeah, I thought it was pretty irrelevant to be honest especially considering that Degwin is little more than Gihren's puppet. Furthermore this whole thing is a minor secondary issue and with primary issue being that there's simply no reason to go planetside.

Explain this then:

[Stark]

In case you can't keep up, Gundams require far less power than Mechs (their rated power output is absurdly low) and have no heat problems such as dictate the entire design of Mechs. They're not going to switch to BT fusion just... because.

[SapphireFox]

Last I looked, Hydrogen-Hydrogen/Proton-Proton fusion produces significantly more energy than Dueterium-He3 fusion. A quick check on wiki shows 26.73 MeV vs 14.7 MeV. There is also the convenience issue. Dropships can land next to a lake, stick a big hose in, and crack the hydrogen out of the water. Amusingly enough, the first example that comes to mind is from Far Country. It's also convenient to be able to separate any spare water a ship is carrying for more fuel and oxygen. Do we know how or why Minovsky cycle fusion differs from regular Dueterium-He3 fusion?

How does it differ? Well let me quote from the wiki article on it.

Minovsky physics


The Minovsky Physics is the fundamental technological advancement in the Universal Century series, all Beam weaponry, nuclear technology and defensive measures are based upon this fictional physics. According to the Gundam Century, MS encyclopedia 2003 and Gundam Officials, the Minovsky Physics all started from the invention of the then heretic idea of a nuclear fusion reactor that has a higher theoretical efficiency than classical(aka real world) physics. All related to the Minovsky particle mentioned below.

The Minovsky-Ionesco reactor was named after its fictional inventors, Dr. Y.T. Minovsky and Dr. Ionesco. This reactor was "radical" due to the fact that it was the first "clean" nuclear reactor, emitting zero neutron radiation. The nuclear equation was:

{}^3_2\mathrm{He} + {}^2_1\mathrm H \to {}^4_2\mathrm{He} + \mathrm p (energy released: 18.35 MeV)

Which is essentially the same as the equation produced by real-life nuclear physics, yet the fictional particle is added into the equation as a catalyst like Muon.

[edit] The Minovsky particle

According to the official guide of Mobile Suit Gundam, Gundam Century and Gundam Officials, the Minovsky Physics Society, while working on the reactor, encountered a strange electromagnetic wave effect in U.C.0065 within the Minovsky-Ionesco reactor that could not be explained by conventional physics. Within the next few years, they identified the cause: a new elementary particle generated by the helium-3 reaction on the inner wall of the reactor, which was named the Minovsky particle (ミノフスキー粒子, Minofusukī ryūshi?) or "M" particle. The Minovsky particle has near-zero rest mass - though, like any particle, its mass increases to reflect its potential or kinetic energy - and can carry either a positive or negative electrical charge. When scattered in open space or in the air, the repulsive forces between charged Minovsky particles cause them to spontaneously align into a regular cubic lattice structure called an I-field. An I-field lattice will slowly expand and scatter into space, however, after dense interference it will take approximately 29 days before the region can support normal electromagnetic communication again.

The main use of the Minovsky particle was in combat and communication. When the Minovsky particle is spread in large numbers in the open air or in open space, the particles disrupt low-frequency electromagnetic radiation, such as microwaves and radio waves. The Minovsky particle also interferes with the operations of electronic circuitry and destroys unprotected circuits due to the particles' high electrical charge which act like a continuous electromagnetic pulse on metal objects. Because of the way Minovsky particles react with other types of radiation, radar systems and long-range wireless communication systems become useless, infra-red signals are defracted and their accuracy decreases, and visible light is fogged. This became known as the "Minovsky Effect".

The disruption of electromagnetic radiation is due to the small lattice of the I-field creating fringes that long wavelengths cannot penetrate, and that diffract wavelengths that have similar distance with the fringes. This diffraction and polarization process disrupts the electromagnetic waves.


The only counter measure to the "M" particle in the series was to install bulky and expensive shielding on all electronic equipment, but only to counteract the effect it had on electronic circuitry. While this could be done for space ships and naval ships, this ruled out the use of precision guided weapons, such as guided missiles. Due to this, the military use of Minovsky particles ushered in a new era of close-range combat. This is the primary reason for the birth of the Zeon close-combat weapon: the mobile suit.

Minovsky ultracompact fusion reactor

According to the timeline deduced by the Gundam Officials, in UC 0071, Zeon researchers created the Minovsky ultracompact fusion reactor. Instead of the conventional magnetic field, this improved version of the Minovsky-Ionesco reactor used an I-field to confine and compress the reactor fuel, triggering a fusion reaction. The Minovsky particles produced as a byproduct of the helium-3 fusion reaction were recycled to keep that reaction going. The Minovsky particles that form the I-field lattice also helped catalyze the fusion reaction, in a process similar to the muon-catalyzed fusion investigated by real-world scientists during the 1950s. This super-efficient design was only a fifth as large as an equivalently powerful Minovsky-Ionesco reactor, for this reason it was adopted for use on mobile suits as the standard power plant.

A backup reactor for exotic beam weapons and ecm makes sense. They'll need something to balance out Battletech's rather wanked dropship and warship ECM. Personally, I don't really think Battletech's ECM being that powerful is reasonable, but it works game balance wise.

What I meant was that they were not going to switch over to other reactors for their craft without a damn good reason. Yes the BT reactors can potently reach higher power levels, but they can not do so without being significantly larger and heavier for the power output. They also produce far more heat then the Minovsky cycle reactors necessitating bulky and heavy cooling systems that further degrade the power/weight ratios. Not to mention the Minovsky cycle reactors emit far less radiation and produce the Minovsky particle. Something the BT fusion reactors lack entirely.

Keeping a secondary reactor for the Minovsky effects would be too much of a complication and expense for practical use. Not to mention the effects of the added weight on a 43 metric ton Zaku.

[SapphireFox]

getto edit: Zaku II F is 58 metric tons not 43 tons of the Gundam.

[Ford Prefect]

Do we know how or why Minovsky cycle fusion differs from regular Dueterium-He3 fusion?

It's really small. They're called 'ultracompact' for a reason. There's basically no way you'd upgrade to a Battletech technology which is practically defined by being bulky, massive and frankly inefficient. One ton targetting computers, anyone? The actual lattice of Minovsky particles created also serves to insulate the mobile suit from the great heat generated by operation of the reactor, making it easier to radiate heat; if it wasn't for the I-field used to catalyse the reaction, mobile suits would melt.

[RhoOmicronMu]

In case you can't keep up, Gundams require far less power than Mechs (their rated power output is absurdly low) and have no heat problems such as dictate the entire design of Mechs.

Are you aware Batteltech fusion engines scale down small enough to fit in mass production cars? If you don't have enough cash to buy a car with a fusion engine on Battletech Earth your considered poor (Jihad Hotspots: Terra). If mobile suits require much less energy to run, use a smaller reactor.

but they can not do so without being significantly larger and heavier for the power output.

Evidence? Stark claims that mobile suits require much less energy than mechs.

They also produce far more heat then the Minovsky cycle reactors necessitating bulky and heavy cooling systems that further degrade the power/weight ratios.

Dissipating heat requires far more bulk than mass and mobile suits are already ridiculously light for their volume. Just use a smaller reactor that only produces the smaller amount of energy a mobile suit uses and thus less heat.

Not to mention the Minovsky cycle reactors emit far less radiation

Battletech reactors produce vastly more radiation than Deuterium-He3 fusion and can be placed in the family car. Radiation isn't a problem.

and produce the Minovsky particle. Something the BT fusion reactors lack entirely.

Keeping a secondary reactor for the Minovsky effects would be too much of a complication and expense for practical use. Not to mention the effects of the added weight on a 43 metric ton Zaku.

I'm not suggesting using multiple reactors on mobile suits. Mobile suits are usually to small to put out Minovsky fields and don't need to have Minovsky reactors to use beam rifles.

the most famous being the Beam rifle used by the titular mobile suit RX-78 Gundam which utilize a technology called E-cap, the mobile suit does not need to spend lots of energy in compressing the minovsky particles, instead, most of the compression was done by the mother-ship and the mobile suit only need to provide minimum energy for triggering the final degernaration energy.

If that technology scales up even the number of warships with multiple reactors could be limited.

[Stark]

Do you have any actual evidence that BT reactors produce more power for a given reactor system displacement? Even if it were true, what actual benefits would there be, since Gundams instantly make the entirety of BT mechs obsolete? People are going to be emulating the larger, faster, more powerful Zeon mechs rather than the other way around.

[Zinegata]

Yeah, I thought it was pretty irrelevant to be honest especially considering that Degwin is little more than Gihren's puppet. Furthermore this whole thing is a minor secondary issue and with primary issue being that there's simply no reason to go planetside.

Not entirely. The original setting notes for Mobile Suit Gundam stress that the colonies required quite a number of precious resources that could only be collected on Earth (heavy metals like uranium being mentioned), without which the long-term viability of life in a space colony would be doubtful even with extensive asteroid mining.

Thus, as I noted in a Gundam forum in the past, all of these "Let's leave Earth forever!" people (including Char) aren't about to usher any "Newtype Revolution". They're just advocating mass suicide .

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah, I guess all those people who spent a century living in colonies around Jupiter must have all run out of resources and died too. Wait ...

[Balrog]

Link

In the Gundam Encyclopedia:"Gundam Officials", the editor, Yuka Minakawa, quoted the original author of Mobile Suit Gundam, Yoshiyuki Tomino, in the Antarctic Treaty section in page 532, that the Federation needed the treaty to be signed because:
They knew Zeon's main weakness was the scarcity of mineral resources, and prolonging the war meant taking the lead in mass-production of ships and weapons, thus a long-term strategic advantage
-snip-
The same section also states the Principality of Zeon agreed to the treaty in light of the following factors:
-snip-
The treaty allowed Zeon to bring the battlefront down to the surface of Earth. Surface access was considered paramount because in a prolonged war scenario their raw material resources were insufficient (Zeon's national strength was only 1/30 compared to the Federation), and they soon after started various mining operations on Earth (the biggest being the M'Quve mining operations near Odessa).

For whatever reason, Zeon can't just stay in space, they'll need worlds to take and hold in order to keep building stuff.

Anyways, based on what was said in the last thread, Zeon doesn't have all that many warships, no more than the Clans do, and the ones they do have don't have FTL. It'll take them time to refit their shipyards to start building new ones (unless you gave them that as well). It'll definitely spur the Inner Sphere to start making WarShips again just like the Clanners did, but in the mean time fighters and combat DropShips can fight them off if it comes to war.

They also are outnumbered, both in men and machines, by any one of the Successor States. They'll have to pick on the scraps out in the Periphery to gain some territory, but as long as they don't go picking a fight they can become a respectable power.

[Stark]

That's talking about how they can't win a long war because (obviously) there is MORE resources on Earth.

It doesn't say their habitats are going to die out due to resources; just that the EF can out-produce them.

PS Balrog the OP gives Zeon WarShips.