Genghis Khan was Caucasian?? What?

[mr friendly guy]

Ok so I was viewing various youtube channels and out of interest I followed one of the comments back to that guys channel. His user name of <insert word> supreme pride on the surface may very well just be indicating he is patriotic, but it could easily be suspicious for a racist. Although the word chosen in his name is the name of a language family rather than an ethnic group per se. * Anyway I followed the link and his channel has some , ahem interesting claims. Namely that Temujin / Genghis Khan was caucasian.

Now this guy is a racist nutjob with such laughable claims that the CCP is wrong to "brainwash" Han Chinese into thinking they are "equal" with ethnic minorities, however an argument can't be dismissed just because of the characteristics of the author, nor because the author holds ridiculous views on other topics.

So I throw the floor open to those more knowledgeable than me for some of his claims.

1. Genghis Khan was caucasian.
What arguments were made for such a claim? How seriously is it taken in academia? How widespread is this belief, ie are they as numerous as other pseudo historical claim adherents like holocaust deniers.

Googling I have found claims like

a) potraits of the man was done after his death, with the potraits showing him without caucasian features. Of course this doesn't prove he was caucasian and strikes me as similar to the black / white fallacies used by creationists.

b) descriptions where he had blue eyes and I can't remember whether someone mentioned he was alleged to have blond hair. Although to be honest I am pretty sure some central Asians do have blond hair (?is it because they were descended from Persians or am I totally off base).

I have also found a reference that the Nazi's wanted Temujin to be caucasian because they couldn't believe a member of an "inferior" race could be so successful. So they did some research to "prove" this claim. From memory someone mentioned that when Nazi Germany allied with Japan they made up some pseudoscientific claim noticing similarities between their people to prove that Japanese were the Aryans of the East. So this type of historical revisionism doesn't surprise me.

Otherwise I am drawing a blank or perhaps my google foo is simply weak.

2. 5000 years ago our great Hun - Turkish ancestors brought horse riding and chariot technology to the mongoloid race

Ok I have heard that Turkic people are thought to have came from the Huns. The Huns themselves came from Asia and some speculate they are the same as the Xiongnu in Chinese texts. I remember reading somewhere that even if they weren't the same people they had similar weapons, culture etc that they may have had contact with each other. I can only assume he is refering to this type of contact since the Xiongnu were speculated to be a proto mongolic people, although they have also been speculated to be other ethnic groups as well including Turkic.

However my knowledge is very limited in this area.

Any help would be appreciated.

* anyone wondering why I don't just type out his user name, is that just in case he likes googling his own name it doesn't draw attention to the board.

[Thanas]

Okay, I am not a specialist in this but I have heard of this.

Basically, the story goes:

a) We know of Roman traders coming all the way to Vietnam, so they could have spread their genes there
b) We also know of Roman soldiers after Carrhae coming all the way to China and settling there
c) the Huns also brought slaves eastwards, remember they had been raiding Russia for centuries etc.


However, what I think he is getting at is the theory that in the Bronze Age, tribes migrated eastwards, bringing with them their culture and introducing new things to China. This theory is fought by the Chinese state because it would mean that many innovations were not really made independent of the west, such as chariots and weaponry. Some mummies of possible Celtic origins, with caucasian features, have been found in North China. (Google Cherchen Man). They have been dated to 11th century BC. Note: Even today some Mongols have caucasian features like red hair and blue eyes.

So Ghenghis Khan might have been a descendant of any of this. However - and here is the problem - even if he had caucasian features he was not caucasian by any definition due to the centuries of intermarrying etc. Heck, Ghenghis Khan came from a culture which to no small extent promoted the robbing and rape of women from other tribes. So the idea of a purely caucasian Ghenghis Khan is pure and utter nonsense.

(As you said, Hitler tried to claim Ghenghis Khan was caucasian and some "research" was done to prove this.)

And even if the DNA of Ghenghis Khan was caucasian (which it clearly was not for it would have required a concept of pureblood, something completely alien to his ancestors), his army, tactics, language and culture was utterly Mongolian.

[Zed]

What is meant here by 'Causasian'?

[Thanas]

What is meant here by 'Causasian'?

European looking.

[ray245]

b) We also know of Roman soldiers after Carrhae coming all the way to China and settling there

I thought that such a view has been debunked?

[Zed]

What is meant here by 'Causasian'?

European looking.

How do Europeans look?

[Thanas]

b) We also know of Roman soldiers after Carrhae coming all the way to China and settling there

I thought that such a view has been debunked?

Last I heard it was still active. What are you referring to?

What is meant here by 'Causasian'?

European looking.

How do Europeans look?

What is this? Play the stupid game? I already told you what features were identified as looking European in my posts.

[Zed]

I'm calling into question the merit of describing a long-dead warlord in the terminology of scientific racism.

[Thanas]

I'm calling into question the merit of describing a long-dead warlord in the terminology of scientific racism.

Oh dear god....what?

[D.Turtle]

What the fuck? Describing different ethnicities is scientific racism?

[Zed]

What ethnicity does 'Caucasian' refer to? 'European' isn't precisely an ethnicity.

[Thanas]

What ethnicity does 'Caucasian' refer to? 'European' isn't precisely an ethnicity.

It is a term to describe white, European looking males. What is your problem with it?

[ray245]

Last I heard it was still active. What are you referring to?

You are talking about the China town of Li Qian right? Mainly because I came across one or two articles mainly disagreeing with the view that view and also articles saying that genetic test done on the locals essentially argued that the locals are not likely to be connected to the Romans.

This are a few articles I have came across that argued against the view.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2050695

http://www.jstor.org/pss/605541

Also, this article which covers the genetic connection of the locals and the Romans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17579807

[Zed]

Roughly the same problem I have with using the word 'Aryan' to describe white people with blue eyes and blond hair. It is a term that descends from scientific racism and maintains the notion that there is a biological notion that corresponds to 'race'. That is, by the way, the reason that the racist described in the first post would even attempt to describe Genghis Khan as Caucasian. Whether Genghis Khan had blue eyes and blond hair isn't going to mean anything to a supremacist, unless he ascribes to the notion that said blue eyes and blond hair indicate a superior racial identity.

[Stark]

No... shit? That's why Thanas talked about how its irrelevant because of Mongol culture and his very Mongolian manner of warfare; his hair colour is irrelevant.

[Thanas]

Last I heard it was still active. What are you referring to?

You are talking about the China town of Li Qian right? Mainly because I came across one or two articles mainly disagreeing with the view that view and also articles saying that genetic test done on the locals essentially argued that the locals are not likely to be connected to the Romans.

This are a few articles I have came across that argued against the view.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2050695

http://www.jstor.org/pss/605541

Also, this article which covers the genetic connection of the locals and the Romans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17579807

Thanks Ray, that was helpful. Still, the explanation that seems to be prevalent to explain the presence of foreign mercenaries fighting in a testudo-like (or with interlocking shields) is Greek-Bactrian mercenaries, which would mainly be a transfer of Roman to Greek/Indic origin for the purpose of the debate.

Still, not having done much research into that area, I'll gladly accept the correction.


EDIT: Before this gets lost, the genetic link - if it existed - is far more likely to come from the Bronze Age migration.


As to Zed, I still do not know what your point is.

[AniThyng]

Roughly the same problem I have with using the word 'Aryan' to describe white people with blue eyes and blond hair. It is a term that descends from scientific racism and maintains the notion that there is a biological notion that corresponds to 'race'. That is, by the way, the reason that the racist described in the first post would even attempt to describe Genghis Khan as Caucasian. Whether Genghis Khan had blue eyes and blond hair isn't going to mean anything to a supremacist, unless he ascribes to the notion that said blue eyes and blond hair indicate a superior racial identity.

Regardless of the distasteful origins of the world Aryan though, it's fair to say that most people know to intepret it in context to mean exactly what you said it means, it's not like anyone actually gets confused and thinks you're actually talking about Northern Indians or then concludes that Hitler, being not blonde and not blue eyed is therefore not also a German Caucasian.

Certainly in context it is enough to note that Caucasian is distinct from..eh, whatever term it is to used for the race that han chinese belong to. I'm Chinese by ethnicity and I've never met anyone of Han chinese descent I would mistake for a "caucasian" from appearence. Voice and accent is of course a different matter - some people could easily fake a native american/british english accent or just naturally have one from long immersion. Or, in the case of this thread, by culture. Which is more important - that Ghenghis was "caucasian" or that regardless of that he conducted himself as a Mongolian?

That being said - what term would you use for a white "european" person then? I know we can split hairs and talk about how Italians and Spainards and Greeks are also "european" and thus don't fit the loose definition of "european" = "white" we're working with and so on so forth...

[Thanas]

If he even was caucasian, for which there is little proof outside of some pictures, where we do not know how much was artistic convention....and he does not look very caucasian in most of those pictures anyways.

Also, despite the mummies, no evidence linking them to Ghenghis Khan.

[Marcus Aurelius]

That being said - what term would you use for a white "european" person then? I know we can split hairs and talk about how Italians and Spainards and Greeks are also "european" and thus don't fit the loose definition of "european" = "white" we're working with and so on so forth...

That's not even a good way to split hairs. Italians, Spaniards and even most Greek have very "European" facial features. The main difference between them and "northern Europeans" is that they mostly have dark hair and brown eyes, although there are many exceptions, just like there are dark-haired and brown-eyed people even in Scandinavia. I was once mistaken for a local in Greece (by a Greek homeland tourist!), because my behavior at the moment was not typical for a tourist and I didn't have a camera... (I have light brown hair with some hints of red and quite fair skin that burns easily in the sun.)

[mr friendly guy]

Firstly I just want to say that I can't believe an honest question I asked got side tracked into a debate about what caucasian means.

So Ghenghis Khan might have been a descendant of any of this. However - and here is the problem - even if he had caucasian features he was not caucasian by any definition due to the centuries of intermarrying etc. Heck, Ghenghis Khan came from a culture which to no small extent promoted the robbing and rape of women from other tribes. So the idea of a purely caucasian Ghenghis Khan is pure and utter nonsense.

Its quite funny the pictures on that guys youtube page showing the usual depiction of Temujin on Asian films and then saying WTF and putting a giant cross, and then having another depiction with caucasian actors followed by the tick of approval.

You are more verse in history than I am, but has this idea gained widespread traction? Because so far it just seems to be only somewhat more than the wet dream of some racial supremacists.

And even if the DNA of Ghenghis Khan was caucasian (which it clearly was not for it would have required a concept of pureblood, something completely alien to his ancestors), his army, tactics, language and culture was utterly Mongolian.

Good point. It seems a bit silly pointing out the Hun / Turkic overload aspect of Temujin (even if true) if the things which really mattered to his success was the Mongolian tactics and armies. But I bet you this guy would most probably say its due to the Turkic blood in him or some other shit claim.

[Thanas]

Firstly I just want to say that I can't believe an honest question I asked got side tracked into a debate about what caucasian means.

So Ghenghis Khan might have been a descendant of any of this. However - and here is the problem - even if he had caucasian features he was not caucasian by any definition due to the centuries of intermarrying etc. Heck, Ghenghis Khan came from a culture which to no small extent promoted the robbing and rape of women from other tribes. So the idea of a purely caucasian Ghenghis Khan is pure and utter nonsense.

Its quite funny the pictures on that guys youtube page showing the usual depiction of Temujin on Asian films and then saying WTF and putting a giant cross, and then having another depiction with caucasian actors followed by the tick of approval.

You are more verse in history than I am, but has this idea gained widespread traction? Because so far it just seems to be only somewhat more than the wet dream of some racial supremacists.

Whether Temujin looked asian or not or whether the mummies were celtic? The latter is inconclusive AFAIK because the chinese refuse to do DNA tests on them (another reason I am wary of the DNA study cited by Ray), but it is a legitimite theory.

As for whether Temujin looked asian or not, you will quickly find that nobody really cares.

And even if the DNA of Ghenghis Khan was caucasian (which it clearly was not for it would have required a concept of pureblood, something completely alien to his ancestors), his army, tactics, language and culture was utterly Mongolian.

Good point. It seems a bit silly pointing out the Hun / Turkic overload aspect of Temujin (even if true) if the things which really mattered to his success was the Mongolian tactics and armies. But I bet you this guy would most probably say its due to the Turkic blood in him or some other shit claim.

Oh, he is a turk? In that case, stop debating. Why? Because the turks got a minority complex due to being pretty much the stepping stone of every empire until 1071 (and once again until the 1300s). You see, not having much history of themselves, they soon started assimilating everything else. Hence you will find them claim that they are descendants of the Huns (which the Bulgarians/Maygars/Byzantines can claim with far more legitimacy) and stuff like Ghenghis Khan was really a turk (Because, you see, that somehow explains why Ghenghis Khan could destroy the Seljuk state in their mind). They might even be taught this at school. The turks are very nationalistic and to some of them, History begins and ends with them.

Really, I have heard some of them telling me that Alexander the Great was a turk.

[mr friendly guy]

Whether Temujin looked asian or not or whether the mummies were celtic? The latter is inconclusive AFAIK because the chinese refuse to do DNA tests on them (another reason I am wary of the DNA study cited by Ray), but it is a legitimite theory.

linky

I had come across the above article when researching the Genghis Khan is a caucasian claim. Basically genetic tests done outside China from smuggled samples suggest the "same genetic lineage as most modern-day Swedes, Finns, Tuscans, Corsicans, and Sardinians." However the DNA was badly degraded and they wanted another sample for more tests. However since some Japanese researchers paid big bucks for samples, the Chinese officials got it in their minds that they can charge big bucks for this as well, and as of this article (2002) said researcher was unable to raise that amount.

As for whether Temujin looked asian or not, you will quickly find that nobody really cares.

Well obviously that poster on youtube did. Now as to what ancient people looked like, I think there are situations where it could be important. Remember the shitstorm that brewed up with the 300, with the Persians being dark skinned while the Greeks fair skin? Such a situation about whether he looked caucasian or Asian might not apply to biopics of Temujin at this moment, but who knows.

Oh, he is a turk? In that case, stop debating. Why? Because the turks got a minority complex due to being pretty much the stepping stone of every empire until 1071 (and once again until the 1300s). You see, not having much history of themselves, they soon started assimilating everything else. Hence you will find them claim that they are descendants of the Huns (which the Bulgarians/Maygars/Byzantines can claim with far more legitimacy) and stuff like Ghenghis Khan was really a turk (Because, you see, that somehow explains why Ghenghis Khan could destroy the Seljuk state in their mind). They might even be taught this at school. The turks are very nationalistic and to some of them, History begins and ends with them.

Really, I have heard some of them telling me that Alexander the Great was a turk.

Ah, so thats where his Attila, Genghis Khan etc were Turkic rant comes from.

Well I haven't actually debated him. Most youtube debates I get involved in usually are someone replying to me. I was tempted though to post in one of these Turkey will liberate the Uhygurs videos he links to, that Turkey to even reach Xinjiang would have to go through Russia, or at least through Iran and then Pakistan, either which is a dubious proposition. But then I realise I am not that bored / do not have that much free time to mock these guys.

[Thanas]

Whether Temujin looked asian or not or whether the mummies were celtic? The latter is inconclusive AFAIK because the chinese refuse to do DNA tests on them (another reason I am wary of the DNA study cited by Ray), but it is a legitimite theory.

linky

I had come across the above article when researching the Genghis Khan is a caucasian claim. Basically genetic tests done outside China from smuggled samples suggest the "same genetic lineage as most modern-day Swedes, Finns, Tuscans, Corsicans, and Sardinians." However the DNA was badly degraded and they wanted another sample for more tests. However since some Japanese researchers paid big bucks for samples, the Chinese officials got it in their minds that they can charge big bucks for this as well, and as of this article (2002) said researcher was unable to raise that amount.

I also wouldn't doubt if the Chinese somehow did not want people to look too closely at their history, for it would kinda screw with their "China=most advanced nation and they did it all by themselves". (Even though the Romans had more output in one of their mines than the entire chinese state in a year, but I digress).

Well obviously that poster on youtube did. Now as to what ancient people looked like, I think there are situations where it could be important. Remember the shitstorm that brewed up with the 300, with the Persians being dark skinned while the Greeks fair skin? Such a situation about whether he looked caucasian or Asian might not apply to biopics of Temujin at this moment, but who knows.

Yeah, but if Hollywood gets their hands on it they will disregard history to their liking anyway.

Ah, so thats where his Attila, Genghis Khan etc were Turkic rant comes from.

Pretty much, yeah. As I said, minority complex (pretty much how in the 18th century, the western world was looking for ancient guys to be their ancesters, like Caractacus in Britain, Vercingetorix in Gaul and Arminius in Germany - all claims with far more validity than the turkish ones, btw).

[Jeremy]

My statements are only hearsay.

There was an Indo-European language family called Tocharian that existed in the Turkestan area. They migrated out of the area around the Black and Caspian Seas further east into Asia like the Ayrans. The Uyghurs and the Altaic people have features from all their neighbors so the Tocharians were probably absorbed into the Steppe Peoples which had contact with the Mongolians.

I have read about some medieval Chinese generals and Mongolians having green eyes and even red hair.


Not one, or even a few, men could have done it alone though, so there really shouldn't be much of a fuss about it.

[ray245]

I also wouldn't doubt if the Chinese somehow did not want people to look too closely at their history, for it would kinda screw with their "China=most advanced nation and they did it all by themselves". (Even though the Romans had more output in one of their mines than the entire chinese state in a year, but I digress).

I thought that view was mostly due to Chinese historians not bothering to read up on Roman history than anything else? I don't recall any serious work on the Roman Empire being published in Chinese. The books written in Chinese about the Roman Empire often tends to be as good as wikipedia in terms of providing information.