Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapists

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Netko
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Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapists

Post by Netko »

Vancouver Sun quoting the Daily Telegraph wrote:A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after consensual sexual intercourse with an Israeli woman who believed he was Jewish because he introduced himself as "Daniel". An Israeli court made international legal history by jailing Sabbar Kashur, from East Jerusalem, for 18 months.

The 30 year-old delivery man was convicted of "rape by deception" after a criminal trial that drew criticism from across Israel.

Kashur was accused of misleading the woman, whose identity has not been disclosed, by introducing himself with the traditionally Jewish name when they met on a street in central Jerusalem in 2008. After striking up a conversation, they went into a nearby office block and engaged in a sexual encounter, after which Kashur quickly left.

The woman discovered his true racial background later, lawyers said.

Although conceding that the sexual intercourse was consensual, Tzvi Segal, the district court judge, concluded that the law had a duty to protect women from "smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price".

She said: "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated."

A conviction for rape by deception on the grounds of racial misrepresentation is believed to be internationally unprecedented, according to British legal experts.

The charge is rarely used in the West. In 2007, a Syrian pilot walked free from a court in Swansea after being accused of tricking a woman into intercourse by saying it could cure a sexually transmitted disease. While forced sexual intercourse by deception is an offence under Israeli law, experts say it is a charge used sparingly in cases involving protracted deceit and a promise of marriage.

Adnan Aladdin, Kashur's lawyer, said he had filed an appeal to ensure the verdict was not considered to be setting a precedent, adding that otherwise "many men would find themselves in jail".

Israeli legal experts said they found the verdict disquieting. "It puts the law in the position of what could loosely be described as discrimination. I would feel intuitively uncomfortable about prosecuting someone for something like that," said a former senior justice ministry official.

Gideon Levy, a leading liberal commentator, said: "What if this guy had been a Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and had sex with a Muslim woman? Would he have been convicted of rape? The answer is: of course not."

The prosecutor was unavailable for comment. District attorney officials declined to discuss the case.
Real smooth Israel. I'm tempted to draw some racial purity comparisons with a certain universally loathed regime which had similar, erm... anti-deception legislation, but really, the article by itself paints a pretty clear picture.

Oh, and to nobody's surprise, the US media are making sure to suck Israeli cock spin the news focus on the important bit: how this will deter "cads" who prey on single women. Because, obviously, that is the important part of this news. Observe:
LA Times wrote:ISRAEL: Arab man convicted of rape after posing as Jew to seduce woman
July 20, 2010 | 7:12 am

In a ruling that could strike fear in the hearts of cads everywhere, a Jerusalem court has ruled that lying to a woman to get her into bed is a form of rape.

Sabbar Kashur, 30, an Arab resident of Jerusalem, pretended to be a Jewish bachelor looking for a relationship. He met a Jewish woman and they went to a nearby building to have consensual sex, according the account in the Haaretz newspaper. He split before she'd finished putting her clothes back on.
She filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault, which authorities took seriously.

Sure, it wasn't "classic rape by force," reasoned Jerusalem District Court Judge Tzvi Segal, but if the woman "hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor ... she would not have cooperated."
The court rejected a plea bargain to serve community service and sentenced Kashur to 18 months in prison.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Broomstick »

Netko wrote:Kashur was accused of misleading the woman, whose identity has not been disclosed, by introducing himself with the traditionally Jewish name when they met on a street in central Jerusalem in 2008. After striking up a conversation, they went into a nearby office block and engaged in a sexual encounter, after which Kashur quickly left.

The woman discovered his true racial background later, lawyers said.

Although conceding that the sexual intercourse was consensual, Tzvi Segal, the district court judge, concluded that the law had a duty to protect women from "smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price".

She said: "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated."
Um... WTF? WHO has sex with person they just met on a street corner with any kind of delusion either party is interested in a "serious romantic relationship"?

Barring some bizarre aspect not yet reported, my take is that if it was consensual sex - however foolish in context - then it wasn't rape.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Stark »

Dude my name is Daniel. I'm not Jewish. Holy shit I'm glad I'm not in Israel or I'd be the greatest criminal in history. :lol:

The description of a woman fucking a complete stranger as 'co-operating' is fucking hilarious. She never would have gone along with that dastardly scheme!
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Coyote »

This is bizarre. What is she doing, looking for a "serious relationship" by hiding in some random office area and humping someone she just met?

That said, obtaining sex through deception is certainly unethical, although I don't know if I'd necessarily call it "rape".
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In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Coyote »

Netko, bear in mind a few things:
Netko wrote:
The charge is rarely used in the West. In 2007, a Syrian pilot walked free from a court in Swansea after being accused of tricking a woman into intercourse by saying it could cure a sexually transmitted disease. While forced sexual intercourse by deception is an offence under Israeli law, experts say it is a charge used sparingly in cases involving protracted deceit and a promise of marriage.

Adnan Aladdin, Kashur's lawyer, said he had filed an appeal to ensure the verdict was not considered to be setting a precedent, adding that otherwise "many men would find themselves in jail".

Israeli legal experts said they found the verdict disquieting. "It puts the law in the position of what could loosely be described as discrimination. I would feel intuitively uncomfortable about prosecuting someone for something like that," said a former senior justice ministry official...
Before you get too glued to the saddle of the high horse, bear in mind that this is:
1- an unprecedented use of the law
2- originally intended as a law against long-term duplicity in a relationship (ie, perhaps gold-digging)
3- other ISRAELI lawyers said that this was a "disturbing" use of the law and was "discriminatory".

So no, this is not a regular occurring theme in Israeli court and is in fact drawing flak from a lot of those "evil Israelis" who are criticising the way this law is being applied.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Stark »

I dunno, am I a rapist for all those times I told a car slut I had a bitching Skyline 'back home' to get my dick sucked? :lol:
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Coyote »

If you are, Stark, then I probably have a life sentence waiting for me if I ever go back to Israel...! :mrgreen:

I was a naughty boy over there.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Hamstray »

Vancouver Sun quoting the Daily Telegraph wrote: The charge is rarely used in the West. In 2007, a Syrian pilot walked free from a court in Swansea after being accused of tricking a woman into intercourse by saying it could cure a sexually transmitted disease. While forced sexual intercourse by deception is an offense under Israeli law, experts say it is a charge used sparingly in cases involving protracted deceit and a promise of marriage.
That is some perverse rationale. I can see how abusing someones ignorance about STDs could qualify for negligence, but a promise of marriage, that's just something abstract and irrelevant for consensus.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Elfdart »

So not not only does Israel import American weapons, but they have also imported some Jim Crow to go with them. Lying to get laid is OK if you're Jewish, but it's rape if you're not.
I dunno, am I a rapist for all those times I told a car slut I had a bitching Skyline 'back home' to get my dick sucked?
Which makes me wonder: Who's to say she didn't blow you because she found you so charming and your personality so irresistible? I mean, it would be your word against hers, isn't it?
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by ArmorPierce »

Who would have sex with a woman that they had to trick into it by convincing her it would cure her STD?
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Coyote »

It's difficult for us to understand here in the "real" world, but remember that in some places in Africa it is "an undeniable fact" that having sex with a virgin will cure you of AIDS. There are some disturbing stats on infant rape that correlate to that.

It is a big problem in South Africa, but the truth is, I think, that South Africa appears to be a big problem because there is simply more reporting going on of the problem, whereas elsewhere it goes unreported. On that, though, I have no way to verify.

And there are many in the 3rd world who think that condoms spread AIDS. :wtf:
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Zixinus »

If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated.
But she had sex with him without knowing him anyway?

Shouldn't this women be facing social discrimination for fucking a stranger or something by her peers? I know that I am referring to an old, misogynistic mindset but isn't it one still heavily prevails in countries like Israel?

I somehow smell either nepotism here or sensation-seeking.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Samuel »

ArmorPierce wrote:Who would have sex with a woman that they had to trick into it by convincing her it would cure her STD?
Coyote, I think he was asking why the guy would do so. A sane reason would be he also had the same disease and didn't have to worry about catching it.
Shouldn't this women be facing social discrimination for fucking a stranger or something by her peers? I know that I am referring to an old, misogynistic mindset but isn't it one still heavily prevails in countries like Israel?
She had sex as a prelude to a long term relationship therefore it doesn't count :P Although the article makes it sound like she just met a man on the street and agreed to have sex with him after talking a bit. Excuse my massive ignorance of sex, but is this common, because I was under the influence people generally had to display caring and spend tend with each other before they had sex and decided to marry.

Of course, it could be that part of the story was being left out (maybe they met online or something and this had been building up for a while), but as it stands this just seems odd.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by ArmorPierce »

Samuel wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:Who would have sex with a woman that they had to trick into it by convincing her it would cure her STD?
Coyote, I think he was asking why the guy would do so. A sane reason would be he also had the same disease and didn't have to worry about catching it.
This and yeah that would make it somewhat more sane (not much since there are different strains of same disease)... also depending on what she had. I would imagine it to be something like hiv if she was willing to have sex with some guy with the hope of curing it.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by LadyTevar »

*snort* As a mature woman, I've gone out looking for a man to get laid a few times in my life. Guys will claim a lot of things to get in the pants of an interested woman, including lying about their name, age, wealth, and marital status.

Trying to say after the fact "Oh, he lied to me, it's rape!" is ridiculous.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Archaic` »

Coyote wrote:And there are many in the 3rd world who think that condoms spread AIDS. :wtf:
To be fair for them, they know that by personal experience....the idea of using the condom once only and/or that a condom that's got a tear in it can't be used apparently not occurring to some people.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by eyl »

Zixinus wrote:Shouldn't this women be facing social discrimination for fucking a stranger or something by her peers? I know that I am referring to an old, misogynistic mindset but isn't it one still heavily prevails in countries like Israel?
Depends on her background, really - Israel is hardly homogenous on the issue. Still smells fishy that she had an expectation of a committed relationship under the cirumstances (even if he had been a Jewish bachelor) - if I have time, I'll see if I can find a copy of the verdict and see if it sheds some light on the matter.

According to Haaretz, there is precedent for the law being used in cases where a man had sex with a women if the court believed she would not have slept with him if he hadn't mislead her. Note that FWIW the two examples named in the article are Jewish men.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Axiomatic »

Awesome, you used to have hidden Jews which were hunted down, now it's Jews hunting those pretending to be Jews. Talk about reversing your role...
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by kouchpotato »

Wow, this is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that I told some people about it and they support the decision. Was this a dick move? Yeah, I guess so. Was it rape? Absolutely not.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Molyneux »

Absolutely ridiculous. Not only does this put an innocent (well, relatively speaking) man into a very bad situation - who wants to bet it'll be tough as hell for a "rapist" to get any kind of legitimate work? - but they've managed to cheapen the definition of rape for the sake of a little nice zinger of discrimination.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Edi »

This is par for the course for the apartheid theocracy. Another new low, but honestly, who is really surprised that they would be such assholes?

In other Israeli related news, one of the Arab-Israeli members of Knesset was on the convoy where the nine Turkish citizens were killed by IDF. The rest of the Knesset just stripped him of his diplomatic passport and he is barred from traveling abroad under a parliamentary order.

This article is old and they have actually gone ahead and done what they are just talking about there.

I have long ago ceased to be amazed at anything in the nature of vicious, discriminatory or war crimes that Israel does. Israel refraining from such would raise my eyebrows.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Molyneux »

Edi wrote:This is par for the course for the apartheid theocracy. Another new low, but honestly, who is really surprised that they would be such assholes?

In other Israeli related news, one of the Arab-Israeli members of Knesset was on the convoy where the nine Turkish citizens were killed by IDF. The rest of the Knesset just stripped him of his diplomatic passport and he is barred from traveling abroad under a parliamentary order.

This article is old and they have actually gone ahead and done what they are just talking about there.

I have long ago ceased to be amazed at anything in the nature of vicious, discriminatory or war crimes that Israel does. Israel refraining from such would raise my eyebrows.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Coyote »

Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

Nice catch, Coyote.

I'm a bit curious myself where the line should be drawn about deception and sexual consent. There was an earlier thread where a man pretended to be his twin brother in order to have sex with his brother's wife, and it was (rightfully) considered rape. This situation in Israel, on the other hand, seems to include such a trivial deception that it is hard to credit the fraud with any harm, let alone rape. But just how much deception is too much, to the point that it causes harm and really does affect consent?

PS: In the US, I once had to lie to a Jewish woman to get laid. I had to pretend I wasn't Jewish.
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Re: Israel: Palestinian men who pretend to be Jews are rapis

Post by Molyneux »

I'm...not quite sure. Is that in response to something I said?
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