The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Nematocyst]

I wonder if Michael knows that we can be as cruel in peace as we are in war...

Really? Is 'We' America, or Humans? In the last 60 years, whenever Western powers won a war, we usually send massive aid and help rebuild.

'We' Humans. I wouldn't want to see Michael's face when we try to Spoiler

bring democracy to

Heaven

[Pelranius]

Angel-shaped pinatas.
Instead of fireworks, Annual Grenade-Tossing Contests and Ceremonial Fighter-Plane Duels.

And the whole end seems ... anticlimactic. Not to mention Belial is still at large. A third story is in the works.

Nuts, I had forgotten about Belial. And there are Memnon's voices, too. To say nothing of the impending economic trainwreck that total mobilization will do to the markets.

[Darmalus]

And the whole end seems ... anticlimactic. Not to mention Belial is still at large. A third story is in the works.

I'm pretty sure we are well into the dénouement by now, unless you meant the battle between Michael and Yah-yah was anticlimactic. Personally, I was on the edge of my seat for that battle.

[Ryan Thunder]

Good to know that "story has gone in bad direction" means "story is unreadable" to you. You must have a very black and white view of things.

You're putting words in my mouth. I could have assumed you still read (and partially enjoy) the story, even though you dislike it, if it weren't for the fact that every single post you make in this thread make it sound as though you wouldn't be caught dead reading it. Since that is, in fact, the case, I can only assume that you are trolling out of ignorance or for laughs.

I have on several occasions in this very thread praised Stuart's ability to write prose.

It'd be unreasonable of me to hold it against you if you hadn't noticed it though, so I'm just pointing it out.

[Guardsman Bass]

Well, that's that. I'm curious as to what's left for Pantheocide - the capture of Belial, perhaps? Or is that slippery bastard going to somehow end up in the hands of one of the Others out there in the multiverse?

[darksoul]

I wonder if Michael knows that we can be as cruel in peace as we are in war...

Really? Is 'We' America, or Humans? In the last 60 years, whenever Western powers won a war, we usually send massive aid and help rebuild.

For me it`s we humans and within humans, Americans specially. being cruel doesn`t necessarily mean being physically destructive. there is more than one way to skin a cat. then again, if some other country would be the dominant power it will be the one doing the nasty stuff and dragging enemies, so... I`ll stick to humans in general for the sake of keeping the thread on subject.

as for the criticism seeing earlier... I would like to say that the novel does get too technical and slow paced for the most part. It`s not an action thriller, it`s not a pure sci fi show, it`s not easy to classify. I like it because it opens questions in a what if scenario. We set a situation, a known one, and then we ask "what if" and suddenly the magic happens. That`s awesome, to say the least.

the portrayal of logistics, slight social commentary and the nuances of organizing rather than unleashing the might of armies blends pretty well with more conventional, action and intrigue related plots and actions, interspersed far enough as not to disturb the generally slow pace, but often enough to keep the interest for those looking more mainstream works or simply more action directed. finally, the sci fi is pretty hard (for me, a plus) and the world chosen is fascinating on its own.

The overwhelmingly one sided fight is something I read as an exultant homage to the power of science. It could happen in a number of scenarios, but the one chosen has a whole new level of appeal. The style also has the effect of setting a nice contrast as Jester implied. This is not one more of those novels out there, it`s different. Different good, different bad, is on each man mind. this also has to do with the pacing and focus of the story: were this to be an action novel, the fight should be more evenly split or it would be BORING AS HELL. Since that isn`t the case, fights are to be use sparingly and to highlight special points, not as the meat of the burguer. It has the structure it must have to portray what it wants in the setting it is. Anything else would lack on science hardness, appeal or plot consistency.

Artistically, is pretty decent. characters are complex, the main ones at least. Their motivations and actions are plausible, there are no idiot balls, mostly. Descriptions are good in defining ambience, hugely important in any portrait of foreign environments.

Enough with the praising, on with the mowing: The dialogue is pretty cold, and at times repetitive. there is a great deal of exposition, which is good, but not that good. descriptions are lenghty and detailed, but not engaging. at extreme cases it reads as instructions to set a theatre performance. The story is very American centered. One could say that Americans are the heart of the HEA and the whole war effort, but that`s not to say that all 3rd world countries are to be largely ignored. Except for the skirmish in armaggeddon, Chinese are only mentioned as economically powerful, but there is no POV story on them, nor on any other token third world average soldier, policeman or common citizen faced with a changing world and supernatural beings other than to show how old enemies are fast allies (the Tel Aviv incident) or how baldrick attacks are useless (the mall attack in armaggeddon, even then, the foreign girl was an inmigrant, and it didn`t portrait her culture but rather the normal reactions of everyone in that situation). Russians get a chapter in Armaggeddon, and are handwaived in the rest of the novels. This is not actually bad, there is no way to make all of that into one story without disrupting it badly. I however would like to see more involvement of anything other than Americans, British, and Thais, specially in these last novel and last chapters. To put it bluntly, I feel ethnically excluded.

When you put the pros and cons, I would not only read the thing, but buy it and even recommend it to my friends, colleagues and students, because that`s a choice, accepting what you don`t like in order to enjoy what you do.

Sorry about the long post.

[darksoul]

Angel-shaped pinatas.
Instead of fireworks, Annual Grenade-Tossing Contests and Ceremonial Fighter-Plane Duels.

I`ll dig that
that is, until controversy start to raise about how the pinatas are culturally insensitive and the party goes south...pinata party in Hell!!

[thegreatpl]

You know, when reading the beginning of that last chapter, I got the idea of a rather amusing short section about a supply officer sitting in a bar in heaven complaining about how he had had to sit through several hours of an argument over which side of the road they should drive on, due to a british civilian contractor painting the lines on the left along some parts. funny how these things come to you.

I would say that there are a few more sections and then an epilogue.

I have to wonder whether or not Belial is still alive. Michael ought to know that Belial would be able to identify him as being the one who put him in charge over there, and having him quietly killed off leaving humanity to hunt for him thinking he is still alive seems to be just like him.

otherwise, he might end up organizing a great hunt after him in the next book.

[Pelranius]

You know, when reading the beginning of that last chapter, I got the idea of a rather amusing short section about a supply officer sitting in a bar in heaven complaining about how he had had to sit through several hours of an argument over which side of the road they should drive on, due to a british civilian contractor painting the lines on the left along some parts. funny how these things come to you.

I would say that there are a few more sections and then an epilogue.

I have to wonder whether or not Belial is still alive. Michael ought to know that Belial would be able to identify him as being the one who put him in charge over there, and having him quietly killed off leaving humanity to hunt for him thinking he is still alive seems to be just like him.

otherwise, he might end up organizing a great hunt after him in the next book.

Belial made his escape to Earth just as the US was knocking down his little camp. He most likely went to Hell after that, but no word on if he stayed there.

[thegreatpl]

so i can think of one of two things will happen;
1) Michael arranged a fall back position for Belial. It wouldn't be that hard after all, since he has already lost one war. So Belial jumps to earth and then to this fall back position, where the helpful angels there, loyal to michael, help into a nice cage or blow his brains out.
2) Michael organizes hunts for him in the next book to make sure he doesn't surrender to the humans and hand over the fact that michael had been one of the ones in charge of setting up the concentration camp.

Actually, this might have been one time our magnificent bastard has screwed up.

[Nematocyst]

I don't think Belial will surrender himself to us. Not after Sheffield and Detroit.
He has an agenda of his own, and it includes Euryale.

[Barrigana]

I however would like to see more involvement of anything other than Americans, British, and Thais, specially in these last novel and last chapters. To put it bluntly, I feel ethnically excluded.

I for one am glad Stuart didn't go the Turtledove route of having 3 dozen plot lines all over the world dragging the thing down and I'm from one of the small, ignored countries.
You can't cover everything and keep things decently paced.

[GrayAnderson]

Angel-shaped pinatas.
Instead of fireworks, Annual Grenade-Tossing Contests and Ceremonial Fighter-Plane Duels.

And the whole end seems ... anticlimactic. Not to mention Belial is still at large. A third story is in the works.

Nuts, I had forgotten about Belial. And there are Memnon's voices, too. To say nothing of the impending economic trainwreck that total mobilization will do to the markets.

Yeah...you're not only going to have a post-war demobilization happen, the economy is staggering on with the '08 crash having been muted by the massive influx of government spending. I am going to be as polite as I can be and say that I would give my right arm to have $100,000 at my disposal at the bottom of this one (I'm still smarting over a check not being handed to me in February of '09 that I should have had...don't get me started on that little bit).

My basic world model is that the whole Eternal City is built of goods (wood, metal, stone, precious stones) looted from worlds without number.

Like I've said before...they took the shiny stuff but left the 'useful' stuff. Honestly, the third book is looking like the best of the three...there's some stuff germinating in my mind short story-wise that I'll look into putting up here once I get a feel for where Stuart is going in book three (there are a lot of ways he could go, after all).

[Negativedark]

Well the war is won. But will the peace be lost? I wonder how long it'll be before someone starts complaining about how paving over part of it ruined the pastorial beauty of heaven? Anyways one big problem is done. A whole bunch of smaller ones await.

[GrayAnderson]

Well the war is won. But will the peace be lost? I wonder how long it'll be before someone starts complaining about how paving over part of it ruined the pastorial beauty of heaven? Anyways one big problem is done. A whole bunch of smaller ones await.

Actually, this raises an interesting thought: What happens when Ford begins marketing automobiles aimed at mid-to-upper rank angels? I know they've got some demon-capable models, but I'm waiting for them to have to knock down a line of old palaces to stick a freeway through the center of the Eternal City.

[darksoul]

so i can think of one of two things will happen;
1) Michael arranged a fall back position for Belial. It wouldn't be that hard after all, since he has already lost one war. So Belial jumps to earth and then to this fall back position, where the helpful angels there, loyal to michael, help into a nice cage or blow his brains out.
2) Michael organizes hunts for him in the next book to make sure he doesn't surrender to the humans and hand over the fact that michael had been one of the ones in charge of setting up the concentration camp.

Actually, this might have been one time our magnificent bastard has screwed up.

Going for the second choice on that one. If the first were true, Belial would had expected humans in his camp, which he certainly didn`t-

[Junghalli]

The overwhelmingly one sided fight is something I read as an exultant homage to the power of science.

Too anvilicious of one IMO. I'm all for making the power of science a major theme in stories and watching a society based on a superior philosophy curbstomp one based on a retarded philosophy is satisfying, but IMO it's hard to keep it from coming off as smug and self-indulgent after a while, and TSW lacks the necessary subtlety to keep that from happening.

YMMV, of course.

[Nuts!]

Too anvilicious of one IMO. I'm all for making the power of science a major theme in stories and watching a society based on a superior philosophy curbstomp one based on a retarded philosophy is satisfying, but IMO it's hard to keep it from coming off as smug and self-indulgent after a while, and TSW lacks the necessary subtlety to keep that from happening.

Anvilicious, sure, but remember that the story hasnt had a full edit yet. Take the same story, trim some extra bits off, maybe add a couple "humans lose" scenes in the beginning (run out of ammo, say) to up the tension (and make Uriel a little more kickass, plz?), and change the language to show instead of tell how rationality trumps faith...basically, this story has a lot of good stuff going for it, and Ill bet you that itll really shine post-editing.

[GrayAnderson]

Too anvilicious of one IMO. I'm all for making the power of science a major theme in stories and watching a society based on a superior philosophy curbstomp one based on a retarded philosophy is satisfying, but IMO it's hard to keep it from coming off as smug and self-indulgent after a while, and TSW lacks the necessary subtlety to keep that from happening.

Anvilicious, sure, but remember that the story hasnt had a full edit yet. Take the same story, trim some extra bits off, maybe add a couple "humans lose" scenes in the beginning (run out of ammo, say) to up the tension (and make Uriel a little more kickass, plz?), and change the language to show instead of tell how rationality trumps faith...basically, this story has a lot of good stuff going for it, and Ill bet you that itll really shine post-editing.

I'll agree that a lot of issues will probably be fixed in editing. The story is quite fine as it is; do consider that we're getting treated to a serialized rough draft, after all, and as I understand it Stuart has revised things in response to criticism (of recent note being the size of the angels getting moved into a narrower range).

[K. A. Pital]

So it's done, then. Nice story, all in all. I'm pretty certain that Michael would get a good war crimes trial regardless of his coup against Yahweh. *laughs*

[Edward Yee]

The story is very American centered. One could say that Americans are the heart of the HEA and the whole war effort, but that`s not to say that all 3rd world countries are to be largely ignored. Except for the skirmish in armaggeddon, Chinese are only mentioned as economically powerful, but there is no POV story on them,

There's also the (albeit little) anecdote of them having one of the forward units near the Eternal City. As for the US military, though, it's not only the heart of the HEA -- more or less the reason why Petraeus ended up as Commanding General -- but to some extent its backbone as well. (How I feel about its place IRL is separate from this.) I wouldn't be surprised though if part of the reason for the focus in terms of scenes is because Stuart assumed a predominantly Anglosphere audience.

Stas Bush, is that sarcasm I hear about Michael? I did like Petraeus' not-too-subtle rebuke at Raphael (or Michael's) attempt to "steer" the HEA.

[JN1]

With occupation duty in both Heaven and Hell, and the threat from what else is potentially out there full demobilisation is not going to happen any time soon. We're going to need a lot of boots on the ground for quite some time yet.

[darksoul]

Too anvilicious of one IMO. I'm all for making the power of science a major theme in stories and watching a society based on a superior philosophy curbstomp one based on a retarded philosophy is satisfying, but IMO it's hard to keep it from coming off as smug and self-indulgent after a while, and TSW lacks the necessary subtlety to keep that from happening.

Anvilicious, sure, but remember that the story hasnt had a full edit yet. Take the same story, trim some extra bits off, maybe add a couple "humans lose" scenes in the beginning (run out of ammo, say) to up the tension (and make Uriel a little more kickass, plz?), and change the language to show instead of tell how rationality trumps faith...basically, this story has a lot of good stuff going for it, and Ill bet you that itll really shine post-editing.

Dude, Uriel more kickass? The guy killed hundreds WITH HIS MIND, and took a LOT of damage SEVERAL TIMES to take down. that`s the very definition of kickass.

[Ryan Thunder]

Dude, Uriel more kickass? The guy killed hundreds WITH HIS MIND, and took a LOT of damage SEVERAL TIMES to take down. that`s the very definition of kickass.

Killing him was still a simple matter of finding him and he did fuck all to anybody who wasn't almost totally defenceless. That's not badass, that's weak.

I mean seriously, didn't they almost kill him with fucking radar on one occasion?

[Spekio]

"I would like to make a another proposal." President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva of Brazil spoke as soon as the applause wound down. "That we declare this day to be Salvation Day, a worldwide holiday forever to be celebrated as an affirmation of humanity winning its freedom and liberty from an age-old curse. And let us not forget that in doing so, we have freed the daemons and angels from those who would oppress them also. Today is indeed Salvation Day for us all."

You should add "Comrade" and "Never before in the history of humanity" somehow. Bearded Frog loves to say those two phrases.