crusades

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-20 09:23pm

what happened exactly with them, what was used to justify them, and best of all, were their acts in tone with the bible? in essence, is what they did Christian?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-20 09:27pm

Basically they went to free the Holy Land from the savage heathens.

It was justified because it was the godly thing to do.

In other words, they went Old Testament on some heathen asses.

So yeah, it was "Christian." Depending on you define it.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-02-20 09:40pm

Actually, and I can dig up my reference, the Pope at the time declared the Turks and Muslims were a "wicked and savage race." He declared them Satan, and ordered their destruction. Freeing the Holy Lands was secondary.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-02-20 10:19pm

In 1095, the Emperor of Constantinople (the last vestige of the Roman Empire) was besieged by Turks and he asked the Western Pope for help as a fellow Christian. That was the original plan.

The Pope used this as an opportunity to roust out of Europe all the seconds sons of nobility, highwaymen, corrupt monks and other layabouts and send them to reclaim the "Holy Land". They sacked Jerusalem by 1099 and according to legend executed everyone in the town, including fellow Christians of Eastern stock (they 'looked' heathen) and Jews.

The taking of places such as Jerusalm, Aleppo, Tyre and other cities went back and forth for decades. The Muslims were considered "Mohommedans" and it was thought that they worshipped Mohommed, and heathens.

Oddly enough, in a recent Army broiefing on terrorism, the DoD video explained that "terrorism has been with us for centuries, and that the Crusades were a form of terrorism perpatrated againt the people of the Middle East..."

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-02-21 05:58am

Coyote wrote:In 1095, the Emperor of Constantinople (the last vestige of the Roman Empire) was besieged by Turks and he asked the Western Pope for help as a fellow Christian. That was the original plan.

The Pope used this as an opportunity to roust out of Europe all the seconds sons of nobility, highwaymen, corrupt monks and other layabouts and send them to reclaim the "Holy Land". They sacked Jerusalem by 1099 and according to legend executed everyone in the town, including fellow Christians of Eastern stock (they 'looked' heathen) and Jews.

The taking of places such as Jerusalm, Aleppo, Tyre and other cities went back and forth for decades. The Muslims were considered "Mohommedans" and it was thought that they worshipped Mohommed, and heathens.

Oddly enough, in a recent Army broiefing on terrorism, the DoD video explained that "terrorism has been with us for centuries, and that the Crusades were a form of terrorism perpatrated againt the people of the Middle East..."

By the Third crusade I think it was....they were sacking their own cities...

talk about being a sore loser...

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-21 07:15am

The bastards sacked Constantinople. I'll have them for that.

Now, where they Christian?

Did they follow the teachings of Christ? 'Love thy neighbor'? 'Do unto others?' 'Love thy enemy'?

No, not that I can see...

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-21 07:22am

I think Dogma covered that best...
"Jesus came and said 'love thy beighbour'. A couple of hundred years later people are killing each other over the best way to love thy neighbour..."

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-02-21 07:24am

HemlockGrey wrote: Now, where they Christian?

Did they follow the teachings of Christ? 'Love thy neighbor'? 'Do unto others?' 'Love thy enemy'?

No, not that I can see...

Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-02-21 08:02am

"All in all it's just a poor man's crusade"

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-02-21 09:42am

HemlockGrey wrote:Now, where they Christian?

Yes.

HemlockGrey wrote:Did they follow the teachings of Christ?

Yes.
In Matthew 11:20-24 jesus condemns entire cities to a fate worse then that suffered by Sodom and Gomorra because they they didn't care for his preaching. What a benevolent man he was...

Mark 6:11 and Luke 10:10-15 , say basically the same thing.
Luke 19:27 contains an outright order to kill those that preferred not to be ruled by him.
In Luke 22:51-53 jesus outright admits that he did not come to Earth to bring peace, but rather division, even among families.

BTW I seriously doubt that jesus ever excisted as a historical person.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-02-21 10:19am

HemlockGrey wrote:The bastards sacked Constantinople. I'll have them for that.

Now, where they Christian?

Did they follow the teachings of Christ? 'Love thy neighbor'? 'Do unto others?' 'Love thy enemy'?

No, not that I can see...

They followed the teachings of Christ. Religious intolerance, violence and bigotry. They were the perfect literal Christians Hemlock, don't kid yourself.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 10:19am

I'm so sick and tired of the Christian apologists' bullshit circular argument that any and all evidence of Christian misdeeds was "not true Christians". Since they define Christian as "good person", it becomes literally impossible to present even a mountain of evidence of Christians behaving badly, since they simply deny that any of them were Christians no matter what they believed.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-21 12:24pm

Its a good trick....
"A lot of assholes have been christian..."
"Ahh, no they havent, the two are mutually exclusive...to really be a christian you cant be an asshole....."
"So....how many real christians have there been in history?"
"We're still looking...."

So long as they are acceptable they are a true christian and once they become a liability they were never a true christian in the first place....

Its quite simple really...those that went on the crusades went in the name of the church to do the church's bidding with the church's blessing.....somehow I do think the chuch was involved somehow.....

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-21 12:27pm

Keevan_Colton wrote: Its quite simple really...those that went on the crusades went in the name of the church to do the church's bidding with the church's blessing.....somehow I do think the chuch was involved somehow.....

Ah, but they were members of the blasphemous Catholic church, and everyone knows that they are not true Christians.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-21 12:34pm

Ted C wrote: Ah, but they were members of the blasphemous Catholic church, and everyone knows that they are not true Christians.

Exactly.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-02-21 02:44pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Ted C wrote: Ah, but they were members of the blasphemous Catholic church, and everyone knows that they are not true Christians.
Exactly.

At least that's what Martin Luther wants you to believe....

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 02:54pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
Ted C wrote: Ah, but they were members of the blasphemous Catholic church, and everyone knows that they are not true Christians.
Exactly.
At least that's what Martin Luther wants you to believe....

The same Martin Luther who wrote the lovely tome "On Jews and their Lies". And there's still a church named after the bastard. Why not a Church of Hitler?

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-02-21 02:55pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote: At least that's what Martin Luther wants you to believe....

And what Jack Chick wants you to believe, and Falwell, and Robertson and Phelps...

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-02-21 03:04pm

IIRC Crusades have been sent against just everybody the Church didn't like. Especially any Christians who didn't worshiped, preached, or do anything not inline with the Church. Crusades against the Southern Gauls crusades in Northern Europe, Eastern Europe and this was before Muhammed was even born.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-02-21 03:10pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:what happened exactly with them, what was used to justify them, and best of all, were their acts in tone with the bible? in essence, is what they did Christian?

Crusades to the Holy Land and their results:

First: 1096, captured much of the Levantine coast from Arabs and established Crusader states.

Second: 1147, seiged Damascus unsuccessfully.

Third: 1188, recaptured most of former conquests liberated by Saladin and Cyprus from the Byzantines.

Fourth: 1202, originally slated for typical Mideast conquest, lack of funds and the urging of the Doge of Venice enticed the crusaders to sack Constantinople. Established "Latin Empire", which went into instant decline.

Fifth: 1217, capture of Damietta, a city on the Nile River delta.

Sixth: 1228, recapture of Jerusalem.

Seventh: 1248, recapture of Damietta.

Eight: 1270, failed attack on Tunis.

There were four Crusader states in the Levant: Tripoli, Jerusalem, Edessa, and Antioch. Edessa fell in 1144, but the other three survived until 1291. Cyprus was in western European hands until 1474, when it was conquered by the Ottoman Turks.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-02-21 03:11pm

Rubberanvil wrote:IIRC Crusades have been sent against just everybody the Church didn't like. Especially any Christians who didn't worshiped, preached, or do anything not inline with the Church. Crusades against the Southern Gauls crusades in Northern Europe, Eastern Europe and this was before Muhammed was even born.

Wrong, these Crusades started after the Second Crusade to the Holy Land.

EDIT: But you're right about their motivation.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-02-21 03:20pm

Wrong, these Crusades started after the Second Crusade to the Holy Land.

My bad

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-21 03:32pm

anyone posted these comments on rapture ready? it could lead to some really amusing debates.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-02-21 07:05pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:anyone posted these comments on rapture ready? it could lead to some really amusing debates.

And bannings.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-21 07:09pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote: Exactly.
At least that's what Martin Luther wants you to believe....
The same Martin Luther who wrote the lovely tome "On Jews and their Lies". And there's still a church named after the bastard. Why not a Church of Hitler?

Because people still live who can remember the horror. Once the last have died who knows which why history will turn the story.

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