Building a Mosque near Ground Zero.

[Thanas]

No, discrimination is not just an objective meausurement. You are not discriminated against unless you realize you are, which is a subjective process.

Wait, what? So if a major company fires everyone over age 40, and no one under age 40, then that's not age discrimination unless they compare notes and figure out why they were all fired? And what about all the whiners who claim that they were discriminated against after they were fired? Are all of them discriminated against, even if there is clear documentation detailing why they were terminated that has nothing to do with discrimination? Whether or not you acknowledge it, people pull out the discrimination card all the time, even when no objective observer would determine that discrimination has occurred (except for you, apparently, since their perception of discrimination is somehow considered sufficient to prove it). Sometimes they miss discrimination even when it actually is occurring. Discrimination has little to do with perception.

It is objectively identifiable.

Fine, it is pretty clear we are not going to be able to identify this. BTW, by your definition of discrimination we would pretty much exclude the christian persecutions in the Roman Empire from being discriminations, since they were only a perception issue. I am not going to continue this pointless argument, it is quite clear that you are not going to change your mind and I fail to see what this has to do with the topic at hand anyway.

My argument was:
a) They have as much a right as any other religion to build their statue there. Forbidding them that right is discrimination
b) At the same time, forbidding them to build the mosque will enhance the perception that they are unwelcome and discriminated against.

As you already conceded the first part, I think you already implicitly conceded the second part. Because you really can't believe that after this has been politicized like that, they will all just go "aw, shucks, normal decision, no biggie" after somebody hypothetically forbids them the building of the mosque?

Media coverage tends to focus mostly on radical muslims etc.

So... therefore...?

Media coverage focuses on radicals in everything. When was the last time you saw a moderate environmentalist group on television?

Al Gore? The Green Party?
So therefore giving moderate muslims an option to speak to others via a community centre is a net benefit.

Radical Islam is the branch of Islam that kills, thus we pay attention to it, if all they did was mind their own business and pray in their mosques we wouldn't know much about it, and why should we? There are very few Muslims in America, there are fewer muslims than there are jews, there are very few muslims in the whole western hemisphere, the only point at which muslims became important in American history is the point at which they started attacking and killing Americans, before that muslims kept to themselves, so we had very little reason to learn about them. When people start blowing themselves up and killing people, we naturally ask the question, who are these people? Our introduction to Islam began with the Iranian Revolution, and our education continued with each attack against us. So you wonder why we might have a negative opinion of Islam?

The above paragraph can best be summed up with "I am ignorant and it is not my responsibility to educate myself, therefore do not blame me for making ignorant decisions." I do not have a lot of sympathy for that point of view.

[ArmorPierce]

I was listening to sean hannity on my way back from work. Sean received a call and started off with the premise that 'we' are not against the mosque due to religious intolerance, but due to us not liking the imam's radical views. The Imam stated that we in part created Osama (this is true, we supported him and gave his group weapons). The caller replied "well, I think religious tolerance in America and Political Correctness has run amok, America is a christian nation, if they don't like it that should go back to where they came from." Sean just agreed with all this. How is he going to play saying that he is religiously tolerant but then agree with callers that state they are religiously intolerant?

Anyway, the only reason outside of aesthetics for being against this Mosque is racism/bigotry. I've been told that there is actually a mosque closer to ground zero than this proposed site. Furthermore, why is it that it seems that it's the people who hate New York and and all it represents who are telling us who New Yorkers should feel and what they should do?

Trying to be rational with bigot people don't work because their arguments is irrational. They should not be appeased in a situation like this because it would be of no benefit. Having a moderate muslim community center/mosque will go a lot further in the long term to having people come to your side.

[Akhlut]

Yeah I have been hearing about this for some time on the right wing blogs. It has been trumpeted as "Proof" that Obama is a secret Muslim agent working to over-through america, and this mosque is a "Payoff"

Really it is just more evidence that the right ring truly have no understanding of how to reach out to other people, nor desire for it. Building a mosque near ground zero if anything is a smack to Terrorists because it shows America is willing to forgive, it also shows (one would think) a message that not all Muslims are Terrorists.

How does it do that? It is a Mosque to terrorist Muslims just as much as it is to nonterrorist muslims. I also think that before Americans can forgive them, those responsible must seek forgiveness and mend their ways, I have seen no evidence of that.

Those responsible are terrorists, numb nuts, not normal people. One of my friends is a Muslim, and was born and raised in the US, thinks al Qaida is despicable, and is politically on the left; why the fuck should he 'seek forgiveness' and 'mend his ways'? He hasn't done anything wrong and he doesn't really have ways to mend. Hell, the only ways he has to mend that I can think of is that he needs to stop using chewing tobacco and perhaps follow a halal diet (mofo loves pork products).

There are plenty of places for them to build a mosque, they don't have to do it in the faces of the victims of the 9/11 attack, do they? I think Muslims must do more to combat terrorism and ostracise those among them who support terrorism, rather than build muslim monuments in our faces.

It's not a monument, fuckface, it's a community center and represents an immense investment into NYC ($100 million, in fact). You're basically suggesting that NYC reject a great deal of investment because HUR HUR HUR, DIRTY MUSLIMS.

Plus, I somehow doubt the Cordoba Initiative, which is trying to build a rapport with non-Muslims, is in cahoots with al Qaida, a group not exactly known for its friendliness toward non-Muslims.

[Serafina]

The problem is simply that people equate Muslims with terrorists.
Of course it makes sense that you do not want Terrorists to build a place that is a symbol for them next to Ground Zero.
But most Muslims are NOT Terrorists, you simply can not justify that equation.

[Kodiak]

Sarah Palin opens her mouth, brain cells die

Mayor Michael Bloomberg Fires Back at Sarah Palin's Tweets On Ground Zero Mosque


Sarah Palin urged New Yorkers to "refudiate" the Ground Zero mosque on Sunday.

By Julie Shapiro and Jill Colvin

DNAinfo Reporter/Producer

LOWER MANHATTAN — Mayor Michael Bloomberg "could not disagree more" with Sarah Palin's criticisms of the Ground Zero mosque, he said Monday.

Bloomberg said the $100 million mosque and community center is " a great message for the world that, unlike in other places where they might actually ban people from wearing burquas or building a building, that's not what America was founded on nor is it what America should become."

He was responding to comments Palin posted on Twitter Sunday afternoon, urging New Yorkers to “refudiate” the planned 13-story center two blocks from the World Trade Center.

Palin quickly corrected her word-choice mistake, writing:

"Peaceful New Yorkers, pls refute the Ground Zero mosque plan if you believe catastrophic pain caused @ Twin Towers site is too raw, too real."


She then addressed Muslim supporters of the project directly:

"Peace-seeking Muslims, pls understand, Ground Zero mosque is UNNECESSARY provocation; it stabs hearts. Pls reject it in interest of healing."

Bloomberg said Monday that Palin has a right to her opinions, just like those who want to build the mosque.

"I think our young men and women overseas are fighting for exactly this,” Bloomberg said. “For the right of people to practice their religion and for government to not pick and choose which religions they support, which religions they don't.”

Bloomberg also defended his aide Andrea Batista Schlesinger, who replied to Palin's mosque comments on Twitter and implied Palin was a racist.

"Andrea Batista Schlesinger has a right to her opinions,” Bloomberg said. “I don't happen to agree with them. I don't think that Sarah Palin is remotely a racist. I don't agree with Andrea on a lot of things and I don't agree with Sarah Palin on a lot of things."


Borough President Scott Stringer also fired back at Palin via Twitter on Monday, saying “@SarahPalinUSA NYers support the #mosque in the name of tolerance and understanding. You should learn from the example we set here in #NYC.”

Many others on Twitter latched onto her use of "refudiate" yesterday to ridicule the former vice presidential candidate, so Palin shot back with another tweet a couple hours later, comparing herself to Shakespeare, President Obama and former President George W. Bush:

"'Refudiate,' 'misunderestimate,' 'wee-wee'd up.' English is a living language. Shakespeare liked to coin new words too. Got to celebrate it!"

In other Ground Zero mosque news, Mark Williams, a Tea Party leader who called Borough President Stringer a "Jewish Uncle Tom" for supporting the project, has been kicked out of the National Tea Party Federation for making separate racially charged comments.

The Tea Party Federation also booted Williams’ Tea Party Express group after Williams wrote a mock letter from "the Colored People" to President Lincoln saying emancipation was a mistake.

Williams wrote an anti-mosque blog post in May saying that Muslims worship a "monkey god."

Driving to my folks today the only radio station that came in was a Christian station and they were urging listeners to call the American Center for Law and Justice and donate to "Defend their Faith" against this Islamic "Symbol of Conquest" to stop the ground zero mosque. Also lulz-worthy was Sarah Palin trying to combine the words "Refute" and "Repudiate". She must've smudged the notes on her hand or something.

[Sarevok]

Question to New Yorkers. How far is the mosque site from where the WTC towers were ?

[Sarevok]

The problem is simply that people equate Muslims with terrorists.
Of course it makes sense that you do not want Terrorists to build a place that is a symbol for them next to Ground Zero.
But most Muslims are NOT Terrorists, you simply can not justify that equation.

Ground zero seems to have become a Shia shrine for American extremists. I expect them to commemorate 911 for years to come like their version of karbala. Sometimes it is hard to see the difference between the people America is fighting and themselves except for the different flags and uniforms they wear.

[General Zod]

Question to New Yorkers. How far is the mosque site from where the WTC towers were ?

Click on the last page. Eion posted pictures showing exactly how far they are.

[salm]

This whole mess reminds me of the protests they had in Cologne when they built a mosque. All in all the people of cologne supported the mosque but a bunch of nazis came out of the woodwork and started protests. The funny thing was, that counter protestors blocked trains and busses. Furthermore taxi drivers refused to transport the nazis which meant that the protest march fizzeled out simply because only a handful of nazis managed to reach the place where the march was supposed to take place.

[Skylon]

I was listening to sean hannity on my way back from work. Sean received a call and started off with the premise that 'we' are not against the mosque due to religious intolerance, but due to us not liking the imam's radical views. The Imam stated that we in part created Osama (this is true, we supported him and gave his group weapons). The caller replied "well, I think religious tolerance in America and Political Correctness has run amok, America is a christian nation, if they don't like it that should go back to where they came from." Sean just agreed with all this. How is he going to play saying that he is religiously tolerant but then agree with callers that state they are religiously intolerant?

Because in Hannity (and the caller's) warped view of America, you are allowed to live here so long as you shut up and remain invisible to them.

Somebody should read Washington's letter to a Jewish congregation in Connecticut in 1790 to these wackos.

the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

What drives me up a wall, is the total ignorance of the fact that Islamic tradition has its roots in Jewish and Christian ones, yet you wouldn't know it to listen to these bigots.

[Tom_Kalbfus]

I was listening to sean hannity on my way back from work. Sean received a call and started off with the premise that 'we' are not against the mosque due to religious intolerance, but due to us not liking the imam's radical views. The Imam stated that we in part created Osama (this is true, we supported him and gave his group weapons). The caller replied "well, I think religious tolerance in America and Political Correctness has run amok, America is a christian nation, if they don't like it that should go back to where they came from." Sean just agreed with all this. How is he going to play saying that he is religiously tolerant but then agree with callers that state they are religiously intolerant?

Because in Hannity (and the caller's) warped view of America, you are allowed to live here so long as you shut up and remain invisible to them.

Somebody should read Washington's letter to a Jewish congregation in Connecticut in 1790 to these wackos.

the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

What drives me up a wall, is the total ignorance of the fact that Islamic tradition has its roots in Jewish and Christian ones, yet you wouldn't know it to listen to these bigots.

We are as you say, "bigots" because we don't like getting killed by them or inviting the enemy over to our country so they can kill us by allowing them to build a Mosque dedicated to intollerance.

You wouldn't know it by watching their terrorist attacks either. I do find it odd that they insist of worshipping the Jewish God yet hate the Jews themselves, and I find it odder still if Muslims say they can go to heaven by killing innocent people, where are the Christian roots in that? And why do Muslims get offended if we kill terrorists if they claim they don't sympathise with them or that they don't represent their beliefs.

[eion]

You wouldn't know it by watching their terrorist attacks either.

Kinda like how Christians say, "Thou shalt not kill" and then they go and murder abortion doctors.

I do find it odd that they insist of worshipping the Jewish God yet hate the Jews themselves

Kinda like how Christians persecuted Jews all through the middle ages and into the 20th century

and I find it odder still if Muslims say they can go to heaven by killing innocent people, where are the Christian roots in that?

And which of the builders of this mosque and community center said that? Not all Muslims are terrorists, just like not all Christians are ignorant, narrow-minded, arcanocapatalist fucks like yourself.

And why do Muslims get offended if we kill terrorists if they claim they don't sympathise with them or that they don't represent their beliefs.

Which Muslims building this mosque are saying they are offended by the killing of terrorists?

[Tom_Kalbfus]

No, discrimination is not just an objective meausurement. You are not discriminated against unless you realize you are, which is a subjective process.

Wait, what? So if a major company fires everyone over age 40, and no one under age 40, then that's not age discrimination unless they compare notes and figure out why they were all fired? And what about all the whiners who claim that they were discriminated against after they were fired? Are all of them discriminated against, even if there is clear documentation detailing why they were terminated that has nothing to do with discrimination? Whether or not you acknowledge it, people pull out the discrimination card all the time, even when no objective observer would determine that discrimination has occurred (except for you, apparently, since their perception of discrimination is somehow considered sufficient to prove it). Sometimes they miss discrimination even when it actually is occurring. Discrimination has little to do with perception.

It is objectively identifiable.

Fine, it is pretty clear we are not going to be able to identify this. BTW, by your definition of discrimination we would pretty much exclude the christian persecutions in the Roman Empire from being discriminations, since they were only a perception issue. I am not going to continue this pointless argument, it is quite clear that you are not going to change your mind and I fail to see what this has to do with the topic at hand anyway.

My argument was:
a) They have as much a right as any other religion to build their statue there. Forbidding them that right is discrimination
b) At the same time, forbidding them to build the mosque will enhance the perception that they are unwelcome and discriminated against.

As you already conceded the first part, I think you already implicitly conceded the second part. Because you really can't believe that after this has been politicized like that, they will all just go "aw, shucks, normal decision, no biggie" after somebody hypothetically forbids them the building of the mosque?

Media coverage tends to focus mostly on radical muslims etc.

So... therefore...?

Media coverage focuses on radicals in everything. When was the last time you saw a moderate environmentalist group on television?

Al Gore? The Green Party?
So therefore giving moderate muslims an option to speak to others via a community centre is a net benefit.

Radical Islam is the branch of Islam that kills, thus we pay attention to it, if all they did was mind their own business and pray in their mosques we wouldn't know much about it, and why should we? There are very few Muslims in America, there are fewer muslims than there are jews, there are very few muslims in the whole western hemisphere, the only point at which muslims became important in American history is the point at which they started attacking and killing Americans, before that muslims kept to themselves, so we had very little reason to learn about them. When people start blowing themselves up and killing people, we naturally ask the question, who are these people? Our introduction to Islam began with the Iranian Revolution, and our education continued with each attack against us. So you wonder why we might have a negative opinion of Islam?

The above paragraph can best be summed up with "I am ignorant and it is not my responsibility to educate myself, therefore do not blame me for making ignorant decisions." I do not have a lot of sympathy for that point of view.

Who can say what is in their minds, they say they are a peaceful religion, but so many of them have this awful habit of blowing themselves up and murdering people in the name of their religion. Fortunately there are not a lot of Muslims in America, and I don't see much reason to encourage more of them to come. I like them just fine in the Middle East with all of its insane violence, and the Middle East is where they should stay. The FBI is busy enough just watching the few Muslims that are already here, I don't see any reason to make their job any harder by adding more Muslims or by building a Mosque in New York City to encourage more to come.

[Tom_Kalbfus]

You wouldn't know it by watching their terrorist attacks either.

Kinda like how Christians say, "Thou shalt not kill" and then they go and murder abortion doctors.

What does an abortion doctor do?
No a terrorist who packs his car with explosives with the intent to kill thousands of innocent bystanders in Times Square is not like someone killing an abortion doctor. Though you probably can't see that an Abortion Doctor kills innocent lives so you only see the abortion doctor's death in this.

I do find it odd that they insist of worshipping the Jewish God yet hate the Jews themselves

Kinda like how Christians persecuted Jews all through the middle ages and into the 20th century

So because the German Nazis did it, we should allow the Muslims to have a turn at killing Jews as well?

and I find it odder still if Muslims say they can go to heaven by killing innocent people, where are the Christian roots in that?

And which of the builders of this mosque and community center said that? Not all Muslims are terrorists, just like not all Christians are ignorant, narrow-minded, arcanocapatalist fucks like yourself.

Do you really expect a bunch of Muslims to come to the United States and admit that they are going to kill Jews before they commit the act? Somebody might just come and arrest them for making threats and thus deny them the opportunity to kill Jews, so in order to get close to their prey, they are going to say all the politically correct things in English so people like you can say they belong to a peaceful religion, and then they get to detonate their explosives and kill Jews. How naive do you think they are?

And why do Muslims get offended if we kill terrorists if they claim they don't sympathise with them or that they don't represent their beliefs.

Which Muslims building this mosque are saying they are offended by the killing of terrorists?

How many terrorists are going to share their future plans with you or I?
All I'm saying is that there is an increased likelihood that a terrorist will be a Muslim rather than a Christian or Jew, but as a liberal you are just going to plug your ears and not listen to any of this as all liberals do. Go hug your terrorist and ignore his abuses against women, even though liberals claim to be for women's rights. A Muslim male's right to his freedom of religion and to abuse and enslave women supercedes a woman's right to choose according to liberals.

The Liberal "Totem Pole" goes like this:

Muslim Men
Muslim Women
Blacks
Jews
Women

Women are naturally at the bottom of the Totem Pole in the liberal's view of things and who's rights supercedes whom.

[Einzige]

Please don't ban him; I'm going to have too much fun with him. Let's keep the moron around awhile.

[Tom_Kalbfus]

This whole mess reminds me of the protests they had in Cologne when they built a mosque. All in all the people of cologne supported the mosque but a bunch of nazis came out of the woodwork and started protests. The funny thing was, that counter protestors blocked trains and busses. Furthermore taxi drivers refused to transport the nazis which meant that the protest march fizzeled out simply because only a handful of nazis managed to reach the place where the march was supposed to take place.

You know of course that many Muslims worked for the Nazis during World War II, many got their antisemetic ideas from the Nazis as well, including a certain Saddam Hussein. So why a bunch of Nazis would protest their allies building a Mosque in Colonge is beyond me.

[Tom_Kalbfus]

Please don't ban him; I'm going to have too much fun with him. Let's keep the moron around awhile.

Yes I can see this is a left wing site, there are so many of you around here, so I'll probably be banned eventually for disagreeing with your world view. In the larger world however, we will take back the US Congress and Senate in 2010 and then the Presidency in 2012. A lot of real Americans can now see your views for what they are, and not how they were dressed up by the "mainstream" left wing media in 2008. Obama lies and he lies again, he raises taxes and appologizes to foreign heads of State for being an American, and he bows to foreign Kings and Princes, So I get a feeling that the American People will grow tired of him and his lying Media flunkies well before 2012, and I am looking forward to it!

[Thanas]

Who can say what is in their minds, they say they are a peaceful religion, but so many of them have this awful habit of blowing themselves up and murdering people in the name of their religion. Fortunately there are not a lot of Muslims in America, and I don't see much reason to encourage more of them to come. I like them just fine in the Middle East with all of its insane violence, and the Middle East is where they should stay. The FBI is busy enough just watching the few Muslims that are already here, I don't see any reason to make their job any harder by adding more Muslims or by building a Mosque in New York City to encourage more to come.

And....you claim you are not a racist or a bigot?

Here, let me help you with this.

Who can say what is in their minds, they say they are a peaceful religion, but so many of them have this awful habit of being terrorists in the name of their religion. Fortunately there are not a lot of Jews in Germany, and I don't see much reason to encourage more of them to come. I like them just fine in the Middle East with all of its insane violence, and the Middle East is where they should stay. The BND is busy enough just watching the few Jews that are already here, I don't see any reason to make their job any harder by adding more Jews or by building a Synagogue in Berlin to encourage more to come.

Do you see anything wrong with that argument now?

You know of course that many Muslims worked for the Nazis during World War II, many got their antisemetic ideas from the Nazis as well, including a certain Saddam Hussein. So why a bunch of Nazis would protest their allies building a Mosque in Colonge is beyond me.

I see in addition to being a retard you are also ignorant of History. Arabs worked for the Nazis because they hated the British. The majority of them however still worked for the British, so shut up. Anti-semitism does not even play into the WWII events of Muslims working for or with the Nazis.

[Einzige]

Like "conservative" Christians really care about a woman's right to choose.


David Gunn
George Tiller

[Samuel]

We are as you say, "bigots" because we don't like getting killed by them or inviting the enemy over to our country so they can kill us by allowing them to build a Mosque dedicated to intollerance.

Which is why we kept out the Irish in the 20th century because of their repeated murder of British nationals, am I right?

I do find it odd that they insist of worshipping the Jewish God yet hate the Jews themselves

It is a complicated issue mostly due to the existance of Isreal. Basically the arab world took it as an insult imposed by foreigners (yet again) so on you get the populations there hating jews. I don't think the rest of the Muslim worlds cares about jews so much. Well, aside from the ones in the former USSR, but they probably picked up the antisemitism from the nation that wrote Protocols of Zion.

where are the Christian roots in that?

Cathar Crusade and the infamous "kill them all God will know his own"? Remember this was against other Christians.

And why do Muslims get offended if we kill terrorists if they claim they don't sympathise with them or that they don't represent their beliefs.

The same reason blacks get angry when the police gun a suspect down- they don't trust the authorities. The difference of course is that the police generally don't gun down people who are innocent (they don't like riots and are generally competant) while groups like the CIA aren't known for their caring or competance in getting the right people.

but so many of them have this awful habit of blowing themselves up and murdering people in the name of their religion.

The blowing up was origionated by the Tamils. Muslim terrorists are copy cats by comparison.

Fortunately there are not a lot of Muslims in America, and I don't see much reason to encourage more of them to come. I like them just fine in the Middle East with all of its insane violence, and the Middle East is where they should stay.

Wow... you do realize the world's largest Muslim nation is Indonesia? You know, the nation south of Vietnam (not in the middle east).

The FBI is busy enough just watching the few Muslims that are already here, I don't see any reason to make their job any harder by adding more Muslims or by building a Mosque in New York City to encourage more to come.

Some muslims believe that the US is out to destroy their religion. I'm sure such an action would quickly show them that they are in error and that the US isn't trying to destroy their faith.

Oh wait, no, it is exactly the worst stance imaginable to undertake if you are attempting to convince people that you aren't trying to crush them.

[Bakustra]

Who can say what is in their minds, they say they are a peaceful religion, but so many of them have this awful habit of blowing themselves up and murdering people in the name of their religion. Fortunately there are not a lot of Muslims in America, and I don't see much reason to encourage more of them to come. I like them just fine in the Middle East with all of its insane violence, and the Middle East is where they should stay. The FBI is busy enough just watching the few Muslims that are already here, I don't see any reason to make their job any harder by adding more Muslims or by building a Mosque in New York City to encourage more to come.

Few Muslims? There are over 1.8 million Americans that identify as Muslims, according to both the CIA World Factbook and the Pew Forum on Religion. A small percentage, but not quite what you appear to be thinking.

Of course, you believe that a significant fraction of the 1.57 billion Muslims worldwide commit suicide bombings and murders for religious reasons. One wonders how Islam has remained a world religion, if so many of its adherents kill themselves. Maybe numbers are not your strong suit.

You also claim that Muslims are inscrutable in their attitudes in the same sentence. Are they not human? If you prick them, do they not bleed? What is so difficult to understand about Islam and Muslims, in your experience? Your sticking point seems to be over the question of Islam being claimed to be peaceful yet having violent followers. Now, do you consider Christianity to be a peaceful religion?

The rest of your statement is bizarre, in particular seeing as the majority of American Muslims believe in the American Dream and are concerned about the rise of radicalism in the Middle East. 78% of American Muslims believe that suicide bombing can never be justified to defend Islam. Hardly a group likely to be enamored with "insane violence".

ALMOST-EDIT: Oh, dear. It seems I have been broadly preempted. But Tom_Kalbfus, I would like an answer to my question. Do you believe Christianity to be a peaceful religion?

[Samuel]

No a terrorist who packs his car with explosives with the intent to kill thousands of innocent bystanders in Times Square is not like someone killing an abortion doctor.

Murder is murder and terror is terror. Only the scale differs.

Go hug your terrorist and ignore his abuses against women, even though liberals claim to be for women's rights.

Given we back the regimes that do these things I don't think you can pin this on liberals. If only they were forced to modernize... but that would require the US not to buy so much of their sweet, sweet oil.

[eion]

What does an abortion doctor do?
No a terrorist who packs his car with explosives with the intent to kill thousands of innocent bystanders in Times Square is not like someone killing an abortion doctor. Though you probably can't see that an Abortion Doctor kills innocent lives so you only see the abortion doctor's death in this.

You seriously don't see the hypocrisy in someone saying "ONLY GOD GETS TO KILL PEOPLE" right before he shoots somebody?

My own views on abortion are irrelevant, and because you've been a naughty little boy I'm not even going to humor you by telling you what they are.

My views on hypocrisy are far more important. If a cornerstone of your faith is the absolute respect for life, you don't get to advocate killing ANYBODY for any reason. Life in prison, fine, but no death penalty, and certainly no walking into their church on Sunday morning and gunning them down.

So because the German Nazis did it, we should allow the Muslims to have a turn at killing Jews as well?

I'm not just refereeing to the Nazis, you narrow-minded mass of Rush Limbaugh's anal scrapings. Go read "The Merchant of Venice". The word "holocaust" was first used during the reign of Richard the Lionheart, so Christian's have been killing and persecuting Jews for quite a while.

Do you really expect a bunch of Muslims to come to the United States and admit that they are going to kill Jews before they commit the act? Somebody might just come and arrest them for making threats and thus deny them the opportunity to kill Jews, so in order to get close to their prey, they are going to say all the politically correct things in English so people like you can say they belong to a peaceful religion, and then they get to detonate their explosives and kill Jews. How naive do you think they are?

My, you are going to be fun. Einzige is right, we should keep you around like a pet for a while.

If you'd actually read a Quran side by side with a Christian Bible and the Talmud you'd probably see that they are remarkable similar. Like most religions, the beliefs are mostly nice, but it is the followers who really determine whether it is a peaceful religion or not.

Islam is a religion with a history of good and bad deeds. Some of them absolutely horrific, and some of them rather kind. I can make a similar statement about absolutely every religion in the world. I am not prepared to condemn people based on the club they happen to belong to sharing some basic rules with another club that has committed some heinous acts.

Or else I might lump you in the same boat as The Branch Davidians since you're both Christians.

All I'm saying is that there is an increased likelihood that a terrorist will be a Muslim rather than a Christian or Jew, but as a liberal you are just going to plug your ears and not listen to any of this as all liberals do. Go hug your terrorist and ignore his abuses against women, even though liberals claim to be for women's rights. A Muslim male's right to his freedom of religion and to abuse and enslave women supercedes a woman's right to choose according to liberals.

Child, you don't even know me. Please stop assuming you can lump everyone in the same boat because we all visit the same entertaining web forum.

Again, since you've been a naughty naughty boy I'm not going to humor you by correcting your misrepresentations about myself and others.

The first amendment of the constitution of the United States grants EVERYONE (Whether they are a citizen, resident, tourist, or dirty illegal alien) the right to practice their religion free from government interference (with a few notable exceptions) and specifically bars the government from endorsing one religion over another.

Terrorists are bad people, and ought to be hunted down and destroyed. But there are plenty of them who claim to be Christians, Jews, Muslims, and every other stripe.

The Liberal "Totem Pole" goes like this:

Muslim Men
Muslim Women
Blacks
Jews
Women

Women are naturally at the bottom of the Totem Pole in the liberal's view of things and who's rights supercedes whom.

If women are at the bottom, how come Muslim Women outrank Blacks & Jews? And where do the dirty sodomites fall in this Totem Pole. Wait, don't tell me: They're shoving it up their ass right?

How did you ever come across this secret information? A bunch of people must have died to sneak it out of Liberal HQ, did you know any of them?

But seriously, you are claiming your rights as a While Christian Male supersede the rights of Muslims to construct a building on private land for whatever purpose they desire? How tall is the ladder for your horse? Did you have to have it specially made?

[Skylon]

We are as you say, "bigots" because we don't like getting killed by them or inviting the enemy over to our country so they can kill us by allowing them to build a Mosque dedicated to intollerance.

You wouldn't know it by watching their terrorist attacks either. I do find it odd that they insist of worshipping the Jewish God yet hate the Jews themselves, and I find it odder still if Muslims say they can go to heaven by killing innocent people, where are the Christian roots in that? And why do Muslims get offended if we kill terrorists if they claim they don't sympathise with them or that they don't represent their beliefs.

Oh my, I am very happy I made my earlier post.

1) I find it odd that many Christians condemned the Jews, in spite of having similar beliefs.

2) I recall a little event during the Middle Ages where a Pope pronounced that if one went to war to reclaim the Holy Land, one could go to Heaven.

3) American Muslims aren't offended if we kill terrorists who are actively trying to kill Americans (Al Queda). They're offended when we go over and needlessly fuck shit up (Iraq).

And you're fucking right I'll call you a bigot. When you reject people who come here, are law abiding and work for an honest living and deny them the chance to build a house of worship because of some wing-nuts of the same religion.

And did you really just write "kill us by allowing them to build a mosque"?

[Skylon]

Yes I can see this is a left wing site, there are so many of you around here, so I'll probably be banned eventually for disagreeing with your world view. In the larger world however, we will take back the US Congress and Senate in 2010 and then the Presidency in 2012. A lot of real Americans can now see your views for what they are, and not how they were dressed up by the "mainstream" left wing media in 2008. Obama lies and he lies again, he raises taxes and appologizes to foreign heads of State for being an American, and he bows to foreign Kings and Princes, So I get a feeling that the American People will grow tired of him and his lying Media flunkies well before 2012, and I am looking forward to it!

Define to me what you call a "real American". I hear this phrase a lot and have yet to hear a solid definition. Please, enlighten me.

I'm sure I'm not, as I'm just some ungrateful college grad, who works with special education kids in a public school, and is a member of a teacher's union.

Oh, and as far as being left-wing. I'm a card carrying Republican who has yet to vote Republican in a Presidential Election because I reject that the party of fiscal responsibility and small government has become what jack-offs like you have made it. Where Republicans, say things to their Presidential candidate like "I don't like him because he's an Arab" and then boo him when he calls his opponent a "decent family man."