The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[darksoul]

Dude, Uriel more kickass? The guy killed hundreds WITH HIS MIND, and took a LOT of damage SEVERAL TIMES to take down. that`s the very definition of kickass.

Killing him was still a simple matter of finding him and he did fuck all to anybody who wasn't almost totally defenceless. That's not badass, that's weak.

I mean seriously, didn't they almost kill him with fucking radar on one occasion?

Yes, they harmed him with radar, the same way they could have done to any other IF IT WERE NEEDED. all angels and baldricks are susceptible to it, is not a specific weakness of his. And it was quite a powerful radar, too, not your average domestic microwave by any measure
See, Uriel killed a lot a defenseless people. of course he did!
That was the point of his mission, kill as much as possible. the mission itself was flawed, and he didn`t pick military targets out of fear, but I think he was doing what he could under the circunstances. Let`s not forget that Uriel kept coming over and over again even when he knew he could and most likely would be killed any moment, and that humans were already hunting him. Were it not for Michael, uriel could have create a lot of more trouble. that`s loyalty, and i dont know what you may think, but it takes some guts to go directly into a certain death, more when you know you are not doing any good at all. Stupid, and bravery. bravery is never weak.

he wasn`t weak, he had the strength of cowardice. I do wish he would had been more cunning and devious, and not all brute force about his attack, but I guess living in Yahwe`s shadow for so long does have some consecuences.

He lacked some street smarts, like Michael. then again, if he had any, he would be the one staging the coup, and a lot earlier than Michael did. Wiith some Satan`s help, Im sure. That`s a terrible thought right there, uriel in heaven and satan in hell, allies. so much for humanity.

[Stuart]

So it's done, then. Nice story, all in all. I'm pretty certain that Michael would get a good war crimes trial regardless of his coup against Yahweh. *laughs*

Not done yet although we are getting into the end of the endgame. In printed structure, this was the end of the penultimate chapter (each printed chapter is a largish number of "parts" as posted here. We still have some ends to tie up and a nice coda to put up).

[Stuart]

You should add "Comrade" and "Never before in the history of humanity" somehow. Bearded Frog loves to say those two phrases.

Thanks for the tip. Amended accordingly.

[Emerson33260]

Actually, this raises an interesting thought: What happens when Ford begins marketing automobiles aimed at mid-to-upper rank angels? I know they've got some demon-capable models, but I'm waiting for them to have to knock down a line of old palaces to stick a freeway through the center of the Eternal City.

They shouldn't need to knock anything down. In chapter 77, an SAS man noticed that the alleyways were 50 meters wide, and the main thoroughfares are two kilometers. Not that the roads won't eventually fill up, but the little matter of converting heaven from the universe's biggest third-world economy to one in which possession of a car by an average citizen is considered normal means that will a matter of centuries.

[Spekio]

Thanks for the tip. Amended accordingly.

My pleasure. If I might, I would also like to give one suggestion of Brazilian involvement in TSW, now that Heaven is being occupied. While our millitary is a joke, as our contributions to WWII were basically stealing food from the americans and moving out of the way, we do have a Urban Guerrilla unit that' s actually (or was) fairly competent. The Rio de Janeiro' s BOPE. If you' d like, I' d be happy to send you a book written by a ex-member who is a friend of a friend of a friend.

[Jeremy]

Dude, Uriel more kickass? The guy killed hundreds WITH HIS MIND, and took a LOT of damage SEVERAL TIMES to take down. that`s the very definition of kickass.

Are you Bad Ass if you stomp on many insects and small animals then are finally taken down when a younger and bullied sibling gets you to lock your stupid self in a room full of hungry rats?

His powers might have been cool but he didn't apply himself very well.

[Stuart]

Are you Bad Ass if you stomp on many insects and small animals then are finally taken down when a younger and bullied sibling gets you to lock your stupid self in a room full of hungry rats? His powers might have been cool but he didn't apply himself very well.

In some ways, I see Uriel as being analagous to the German Generals in WW2; they were bright, efficient, effective and capable but they had a terrible blind spot that led to them obeying utterly insane orders from the top that led them and everybody they commanded to utter destruction. I'd argue that Uriel, far from not applying himself very well, applied himself all too well. He was the "Sword and Shield of Yahweh" and he did what he did at Yahweh's direction (out of absolute loyalty to him). It was that absolute loyalty that killed him just as it killed the WW2 German generals. He never thought to ask "why are we doing this?" "Why am I being told to do these things?" He took loyalty from the point where it is a virtue to that where it becomes a vice. Michael saw that and exploited it.

[Tritio]

That's great for a penultimate chapter. I'd love to have some glimpse about the aftermath of heaven and hell. In hell, existing countries grabbed some space for their own while new governments such as New Rome set themselves up. I wonder if the same would happen to heaven or if another approach will be taken now that they've had prior experience dealing with another world. Perhaps some form of zoning by the Yamantau council...

[darksoul]

Dude, Uriel more kickass? The guy killed hundreds WITH HIS MIND, and took a LOT of damage SEVERAL TIMES to take down. that`s the very definition of kickass.

Are you Bad Ass if you stomp on many insects and small animals then are finally taken down when a younger and bullied sibling gets you to lock your stupid self in a room full of hungry rats?

His powers might have been cool but he didn't apply himself very well.

If you survive in the room of rats longer than anyone else, and avoid certain death for a long, long time while sustaining critical injuries, then yes, you are badass. Not going to win, but you are not certainly a weakling.

[Gil Hamilton]

In some ways, I see Uriel as being analagous to the German Generals in WW2; they were bright, efficient, effective and capable but they had a terrible blind spot that led to them obeying utterly insane orders from the top that led them and everybody they commanded to utter destruction. I'd argue that Uriel, far from not applying himself very well, applied himself all too well. He was the "Sword and Shield of Yahweh" and he did what he did at Yahweh's direction (out of absolute loyalty to him). It was that absolute loyalty that killed him just as it killed the WW2 German generals. He never thought to ask "why are we doing this?" "Why am I being told to do these things?" He took loyalty from the point where it is a virtue to that where it becomes a vice. Michael saw that and exploited it.

He also may never have ever really developed that much independent thought. Uriel, for all intents and purposes, spent a very long time where he could literally make anything drop dead at a thought. Unlike those WW2, he didn't even earn his position; you've implied that he's Yahweh's younger brother and thus was where he was virtue of being alot meaner than anything else around him except the boss. Vast amounts of power doesn't exactly encourage creative thought or to challenge assumptions; he never had any pressing NEED to develop his mind. For most of history, this worked for Yahweh and Uriel and that inertia carried them right into a brick wall when suddenly merely being vastly powerful wasn't enough.

I think Michael survived because he never was the top dog. He wasn't as powerful as Yahweh or Uriel, so his mind developed instead (very human of him). This allowed him to see the wall before they hit it and allowed him to try to jump, tuck, and roll (he's unlike Abigor, in this way, who survived largely by luck). He may not survive bailing out, particularly if it becomes clear the magnitude of his own crimes, but at least he won't have died blind. That's something.

[darksoul]

Are you Bad Ass if you stomp on many insects and small animals then are finally taken down when a younger and bullied sibling gets you to lock your stupid self in a room full of hungry rats? His powers might have been cool but he didn't apply himself very well.

In some ways, I see Uriel as being analagous to the German Generals in WW2; they were bright, efficient, effective and capable but they had a terrible blind spot that led to them obeying utterly insane orders from the top that led them and everybody they commanded to utter destruction. I'd argue that Uriel, far from not applying himself very well, applied himself all too well. He was the "Sword and Shield of Yahweh" and he did what he did at Yahweh's direction (out of absolute loyalty to him). It was that absolute loyalty that killed him just as it killed the WW2 German generals. He never thought to ask "why are we doing this?" "Why am I being told to do these things?" He took loyalty from the point where it is a virtue to that where it becomes a vice. Michael saw that and exploited it.

Stuart puts it superbly. Uriel was played for his flaws, but it doesn`t mean he wasn´t good at his job. He just got outgunned, outwitted, and betrayed all at once.
Notice that it took millenia of mental conditioning of unquestioning loyalty, hundreds of humans, super high tech weapons, several direct hits, many encounters and the constant misdirection of Michael to achieve this. Killing Uriel was no joke.

[darksoul]

I think Michael survived because he never was the top dog. He wasn't as powerful as Yahweh or Uriel, so his mind developed instead (very human of him). This allowed him to see the wall before they hit it and allowed him to try to jump, tuck, and roll (he's unlike Abigor, in this way, who survived largely by luck). He may not survive bailing out, particularly if it becomes clear the magnitude of his own crimes, but at least he won't have died blind. That's something.

Not only that. Michael position was key not only because he was not the top one, but also because he wasn`t the bottom one. he had first hand knowledge of the structure of power and the mentality of those in power there.
Abigor survived by luck in the first encounter, but even before he had showed a grain of strategic sense, by hesitating to get into a fray where he didnt know his own enemy. Very clever and cautious of him. And then in his second expedition/suicide run, when he surrendered, he did so precisely out of a thought process that indicated that it was the best outcome he could get in the present situation. So i would say luck/smarts in even proportions?

[justicar5]

I think Michael survived because he never was the top dog. He wasn't as powerful as Yahweh or Uriel, so his mind developed instead (very human of him). This allowed him to see the wall before they hit it and allowed him to try to jump, tuck, and roll (he's unlike Abigor, in this way, who survived largely by luck). He may not survive bailing out, particularly if it becomes clear the magnitude of his own crimes, but at least he won't have died blind. That's something.

Not only that. Michael position was key not only because he was not the top one, but also because he wasn`t the bottom one. he had first hand knowledge of the structure of power and the mentality of those in power there.
Abigor survived by luck in the first encounter, but even before he had showed a grain of strategic sense, by hesitating to get into a fray where he didnt know his own enemy. Very clever and cautious of him. And then in his second expedition/suicide run, when he surrendered, he did so precisely out of a thought process that indicated that it was the best outcome he could get in the present situation. So i would say luck/smarts in even proportions?

don't forget he also had his army go from fightong in phalanx to using Napoleanic tactics over night, they didn't work because he didn't understand the enemy he faced properly, but the leap was huge, especially when he had the line use supressing fire and tried a cavalry envelopment, when before the entire tactic had been CHARGE!

[Darmalus]

That is the scary thing. Without tyrannical overlords who can kill anyone who shows a glimmer of independent thought, it may turn out that demons and angels are smarter than us.

I do not foresee the human position being quite so comfortably superior in the 3rd book.

[westrim]

Remember that Uriel had been making semiregular visits to Earth well before The Message, and had long ago realized that he was having a more difficult time and was using more power to toast villages. He had time to adapt, to ask questions- he just didn't.

[darksoul]

Remember that Uriel had been making semiregular visits to Earth well before The Message, and had long ago realized that he was having a more difficult time and was using more power to toast villages. He had time to adapt, to ask questions- he just didn't.

that`s true. Ergo the importance of the loyalty part. "If yahwe says is so, it doesn`t matter what it looks like". Of course it doesn`t take back the fact that it is a terrible position to hold. It seems that Uriel and Yahwe didn`t talk that often or that openly. Talk about dysfunctional families...

[darksoul]

That is the scary thing. Without tyrannical overlords who can kill anyone who shows a glimmer of independent thought, it may turn out that demons and angels are smarter than us.

I do not foresee the human position being quite so comfortably superior in the 3rd book.

that`s true. not mentioning all the things even an average intelligence being can learn and practice in millennia. I would worry more about the new daemons, those who are born now or are below a century old or so, and doesn`t get their heads fucked up by the regime of satan. Those are very dangerous if provided with a reason not to trust humans. How`s the birth rate of baldricks in comparison with humans?
yond
I would say that cementing good relations with 2nd lifers (which shouldn`t be hard) and putting caps in technological knowledge in the grasp of the baldrick nation are good choices too, to slow their development.

Also, let`s not forget that human science advance because of humans. Angel and baldrick are skillful, but are they creative as a whole? besides Belial, who manage to envision things beyond his knowledge and way of life (out of the box, i believe Americans call it), Abigor who has a certain military smarts, but his politics are to be seen yet, and Michael who has shown to be very adept to technology and has found a way to power their equipment with a wheel he should have designed himself or had his scientist design, other characters are just skilled, efficient, and utterly shortsighted in such regards. It remains to be seem if their are capable of development, and if they are, if that development is as fast as ours and more important, as fast as 2nd lifers nations. Those are the real danger, if you ask me.


I believe we don`t have to worry about baldricks in 2 or 3 centuries, and then if we sort successfully issues like racism, seggregation, old hatreds and such, then we`ll see a Salvation war Reloaded with 2nd lifers kicking baldricks ass all over Hell.

[Pelranius]

That is the scary thing. Without tyrannical overlords who can kill anyone who shows a glimmer of independent thought, it may turn out that demons and angels are smarter than us.

I do not foresee the human position being quite so comfortably superior in the 3rd book.

Well, Abigor's sudden change from phalanx to Napoleonic tactics was largely made possible since he had the unquestioning loyalty of his demons to practically implement it, something which human commanders typically can't, due to organizational inertia and such (I'm sure people have thought of adapting tactics so dramatically too in real life (I can't think of any examples), but usually they didn't have the absolute power to pull it off literally overnight).

[xthetenth]

That is the scary thing. Without tyrannical overlords who can kill anyone who shows a glimmer of independent thought, it may turn out that demons and angels are smarter than us.

I do not foresee the human position being quite so comfortably superior in the 3rd book.

Well, Abigor's sudden change from phalanx to Napoleonic tactics was largely made possible since he had the unquestioning loyalty of his demons to practically implement it, something which human commanders typically can't, due to organizational inertia and such (I'm sure people have thought of adapting tactics so dramatically too in real life (I can't think of any examples), but usually they didn't have the absolute power to pull it off literally overnight).

Or the army whose capabilities for multiple tactics are so large. Remember all the built-in advantages demons have, with the ability to fire from their trident with some power behind it, and the telepathic command. All it took was haste and desperation and he broke through the block that kept them from spreading out their forces beyond their line of command. If he'd had longer to think about it, he'd probably have seriously considered keeping them close enough for centralized command. Jumping from phalanx to Napoleonic isn't terribly impressive in my book because the foundations had been there for huge amounts of time and it's really a question of disposition (note how he didn't have a proper chain of command, a pretty key aspect of the system and what made it not be a simple change in disposition). Plus, measuring the change in years is unfair because after that the leaps tended to be both bigger and much faster. Now if he'd learned a major lesson of the civil war, that charging prepared positions with an intention of melee a la pickett is a bad idea, I'd have been more impressed because it'd mean he had the mental flexibility to look at the underlying assumptions of his way of war (mainly that shock is the ultimate arbiter of a fight).

That doesn't mean that he isn't quite smart, but I'm not sure I love his odds against professional soldiers raised in the system of fighting they command, just like I doubt that an American or Russian commander in the cold war would've been able to command his opposite number's forces as well as his own. Yes, I think there may be some promising demonic commanders who're young right now, but I'm not sure the social structure will let them shine. Part of the human advantage is the social mobility that allows the truly gifted to rise to positions where they can use their talents at a pretty good rate.

[Edward Yee]

You mean "in TSW, not IRL," right?

I will add regarding Uriel that that "fucking radar" was an inadvertent thing which also took out the guided missile cruiser it was on (months in drydock), and that in the final battle there were numerous friendly fire casualties and collisions. You won't be getting numbers on how powerful that radar was from Stuart though.

[BDK]

-delurking-
Just wanted to thank you for your story which gave me many entertaining hours.
-back to lurking-

[GrayAnderson]

Actually, this raises an interesting thought: What happens when Ford begins marketing automobiles aimed at mid-to-upper rank angels? I know they've got some demon-capable models, but I'm waiting for them to have to knock down a line of old palaces to stick a freeway through the center of the Eternal City.

They shouldn't need to knock anything down. In chapter 77, an SAS man noticed that the alleyways were 50 meters wide, and the main thoroughfares are two kilometers. Not that the roads won't eventually fill up, but the little matter of converting heaven from the universe's biggest third-world economy to one in which possession of a car by an average citizen is considered normal means that will a matter of centuries.

Point. I'd noticed needing to go 20km to get to a destination, but I'd missed the two km street width. The equivalent on a human scale, I think, would be the National Mall? Does that sound about right?

As to possession of first-world luxuries, let's assume that gold drops to $100 an ounce (this is somewhat below the "real terms" equivalent of the $35/oz fix from when it was abandoned) and stays there in real terms indefinitely (perhaps even declining somewhat), and that gemstones and the like do something similar. Heaven still has a lot of wealth that can be brokered off, even if there's a case of diminishing returns.

Now, granted that Heaven is going to have some nasty lawsuits to settle that it'll probably end up paying in materials (war reparations always do seem to happen, and I rather doubt that this will be any exception) and land in at least some cases, but they're still going to have lots of looted stuff to deal in...not to mention that if the angels are smart, they'll try and deal off the various looted worlds under right of discovery.

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Odd question: Obviously, there is no mass transit system in Heaven, but I take it as a reasonable given that there are human servants in use in the inner parts of the city. There are no stated slums, but a 500-km commute seems a bit incredulous (if nothing else, the angels aren't going to want their servants having a 100-hour trip to come in). Are there some internal "ghettoes" for humans somewhere?

[darksoul]

Actually, this raises an interesting thought: What happens when Ford begins marketing automobiles aimed at mid-to-upper rank angels? I know they've got some demon-capable models, but I'm waiting for them to have to knock down a line of old palaces to stick a freeway through the center of the Eternal City.

They shouldn't need to knock anything down. In chapter 77, an SAS man noticed that the alleyways were 50 meters wide, and the main thoroughfares are two kilometers. Not that the roads won't eventually fill up, but the little matter of converting heaven from the universe's biggest third-world economy to one in which possession of a car by an average citizen is considered normal means that will a matter of centuries.

Point. I'd noticed needing to go 20km to get to a destination, but I'd missed the two km street width. The equivalent on a human scale, I think, would be the National Mall? Does that sound about right?

As to possession of first-world luxuries, let's assume that gold drops to $100 an ounce (this is somewhat below the "real terms" equivalent of the $35/oz fix from when it was abandoned) and stays there in real terms indefinitely (perhaps even declining somewhat), and that gemstones and the like do something similar. Heaven still has a lot of wealth that can be brokered off, even if there's a case of diminishing returns.

Now, granted that Heaven is going to have some nasty lawsuits to settle that it'll probably end up paying in materials (war reparations always do seem to happen, and I rather doubt that this will be any exception) and land in at least some cases, but they're still going to have lots of looted stuff to deal in...not to mention that if the angels are smart, they'll try and deal off the various looted worlds under right of discovery.

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Odd question: Obviously, there is no mass transit system in Heaven, but I take it as a reasonable given that there are human servants in use in the inner parts of the city. There are no stated slums, but a 500-km commute seems a bit incredulous (if nothing else, the angels aren't going to want their servants having a 100-hour trip to come in). Are there some internal "ghettoes" for humans somewhere?

i guess that servants live in the same house with their masters, as in any proper palace or manor, legally going out only for groceries and any other errand their lord sends them. there are slums in the outskirts of the City, but I suppose those are for menial task like maintaince (in which they suck, judging by the state of the city) production of handcrafted goods, as for example, marble slabs for the street and house, tables, and whatever, those are activities that angels wouldnt want to take part in and it seems fit to leave in the other side of the wall.
farther from the city lies the country yard, with interspersed houses for angels to be if they need to control directly the crops or the population, and villages that works the land and any other product heaven needs (are there farm animals in heaven? as a matter of fact, what do we know about animals in heaven?).

I might be missing something, but that takes care of the long distances.

I was writing know about heaven animals, and I wonder: there are no dogs in hell, so animals have no soul? if they havent, in the uriel attack that is told from the perspective of the dog, how is it that the dog has feelings, thought, desires and such?
This brings interesting thoughts about the nature of the soul. Not that this is relevant or anything....

[Pelranius]

The reason why we don't see dogs, cats or animals in Heaven (or Hell) is that the Minos Gate machinery apparently isn't programmed to replicate their bodies and memories. That might be because humans make better servants than canines and such.

[GrayAnderson]

The reason why we don't see dogs, cats or animals in Heaven (or Hell) is that the Minos Gate machinery apparently isn't programmed to replicate their bodies and memories. That might be because humans make better servants than canines and such.

Well, we still don't know the origin of the machinery. We do know that it can work with at least one other species, so at least we know that it's either customizable in some manner or versatile enough to handle more than one species.

Of course, for all we know it could be part of a larger network (think of a computer network where all we can see is a single modem cable at one end).