What universe would you rather live in??

[RowanE]

I'd rather live in the star trek universe. The federation has, canonically, eliminated war, poverty and disease on earth by 2113. Medical science can only have improved since then, and society should be pretty equal throughout. So life should be pretty damn good.
In star wars, society is much more uneven (maybe realistic?) and so there's a big, poor underclass and a small, rich upper class on most worlds. And most people aren't force-sensitive, so it's not a benefit that the force is there, it just means there are people who can kill you with their minds (although you're not even that likely to ever meet any real jedi or sith, they're practically myths to the common people). Also, throughout the period the films are set in, there's two galaxy-spanning wars. And medical technology is significantly less advanced, I think (how many people in the federation die in childbirth? That's probably the only thing i've got, so it's not much, but still).

The only thing star wars seems to have going for it is faster ships. I'm not sure how the availability of space travel in each universe is, but I think slower travel is just a worthwhile sacrifice. Life in star wars is shorter and more brutal for most people, i think. How difficult/costly is it to get your own interstellar craft anyway?

[Moff Radec]

If any place I would like to live in Star Wars would be Naboo. It's not that much of a high target like Coruscant. The most that happend was a blockade and invasion and the Queen harboring Jedi fugitives. And then also the uprising after Endor. But other than that, it's a pretty quiet world with very nice scenery. Though yes, the Trade Federation invading and the threat of the Blue Shadow Virus, along with the Queen harboring Jedi (which the matter was dealt with) it's a nice pick.

[Jake]

The OP is which universe you would want to live in, not which sector you want.

Well then, you have a chance of living in TNG Federation, TOS Romulan Empire, Enterprise Xindi, ancient Rome etc. Considering the main purpose of this site is TNG federation vs. Palpatine's empire, I'm going with those two.

If you want to argue galactic scale numbers then you had better Kami damn well include the whole bloody galaxy.

Fine, then take a proportion. I bet you the percentage of Imperial population that deals with some form of hardship is far greater than that of the federation population.

As for your borg they have assimilated whole worlds and control much of a quadrant of the galaxy. You cant well ignore them as a threat to that galaxy.

Yet they have only assimilated one federation colony city and a handful of federation starships.

car crashes in 2005= 39,189 deaths by cigarettes ~440,000 per year so yea humanity has a track record of using stupid things that can kill you. The Enterprise has a transporter screw up of some kind at least twice a season and those are on the flagship. The best ship in the fleet and arguably the best maintained. So if they happen here you can be damn certain they happen elsewhere on lesser maintained craft and bases. There are hundreds of bases and thousands of ships that puts the potential number of transporter fuck ups around the ten thousand mark per year.[/quote
TNG Realm of Fear: Millions of people are transported everyday, yet there are an average of 2-3 transporter accidents a year. Assuming a very conservative 2 million uses per day, this gives us 730million uses per year, which makes a transporter 99.99999959% safe. I doubt anything in existence today (including walking is that safe.

Yes this is less than the number of car accidents but as it has been argued in theDo transporters kill thread the transporter may be killing you during the normal mode of operation given you become a disassociated cloud of subatomic particles. Even if you believe this is not death this still forces a mind screw in questioning your perceptions of death and what the definition of "me or I" really means.

This Bullshit just keeps popping up. Your molecules are disassembled, sent through subspace and reassembled. Same you.

No the empire would have sent more ships in and crushed the competitor completely without mercy or reservation. Under the Empire the Maqui situation never would have come about.

The empire would have sent more ships in and crushed them both for the inconvenience.

Not buying it. The Crystalline Entity has depopulated more worlds than the death star so if you want to include having the death star around as a minus to star wars then you better include something that has killed just as many and depopulated more worlds in star trek. Also if you want to include actually destroying planets then look to the doomsday device from TOS that destroyed whole systems of worlds and consumed them leaving a path of destruction through the galaxy.

Once again, unless you want to research 25000 years of Star Wars history and >10000 years of milky way history I suggest we keep this between the empire and TNG federation. As for the entity, it destroyed 12 colony worlds, most likely with a combined population less than alderaan.

A professional soldier can at least expect the basic gear to do your job and reasonably make it home alive. A redshirt on the other hand gets the red pajamas a communicator and if he is lucky a brain damaged pistol equivalent of a phaser. This is hardly basic survival gear.

Most redshirts (yellow shirts in our case) are security officers, not soldiers. The fact that the Feds last so long without professional soldiers further reflects on the relatively peaceful climate of their surroundings. Even antagonists like the Romulans or Dominion use redshirt equivalents. Besides, If you don't want to be a redshirt in the federation, you don't have to be. You may not get that choice in the empire.

More like one in seven, the monster of the week may be different each time and thus a billion to one individually but taken together we can see a pattern of deaths that have claimed more redshirts and extras then the crew complement of the first Enterprise.

Untill you can prove a significant deathtoll during the TNG era, I will assume you are full of shit. Hell considering most of this shit happens to one starship and a few sparsely populated colony worlds, you'll be hard pressed to prove a death toll comparable to World War 2.

No he gave Picard the chance to save it himself after he put it in danger by getting Picard to do the inverse tachyon scan in three different times.

But he did give Picard the chance to solve a problem that Picard caused.

Your challenge is the same strawman of scale I mentioned earlier. You can't reasonably expect the numbers in a sector of a galaxy to equal or even be remotely on par to a whole galaxy. Thus artificially inflating the apparent illusion of safety toward trek.

Take a proportion

As for your challenge numbers lets see Alpha quadrant Trek would over the course of the listed time would be at least in the millions to tens of millions of deaths easy. Likely more if we could get a sense of what the other alpha quadrant powers suffered in deaths.

During TNG I'd put it at 1 million at the absolute very best. In fact, the Cardassian casualties during the dominion war the worst war in alpha quadrant history amount to about 11X those of world war two, and this is an interplanetary civilization we are talking about. To put it in star wars terms, this is 40% the population of Alderaan.

[Moff Radec]

And medical technology is significantly less advanced, I think (how many people in the federation die in childbirth? That's probably the only thing i've got, so it's not much, but still).

Padme was Force Choked by her husband and heartbroken. She was losing the will to live because Anakin thought she betrayed him and Anakin actually had suspicions of her and Obi-Wan having an affair as said in the novel. Still, being Force Choked (which actually causes more damage than it seems) and heartbroken is really hard to live through.

EDIT: Bacta and Kolto were also capable of healing severe wounds. A Republic soldier in Knights of the Old Republic stated that he "would have died dozens of times" if not for Kolto. Though, I say it depends on how exaggerated it was.

The only thing star wars seems to have going for it is faster ships. I'm not sure how the availability of space travel in each universe is, but I think slower travel is just a worthwhile sacrifice.

Don't forget deadlier. But I would rather travel half way across the Galaxy in a few days maybe a week or two than years.

Life in star wars is shorter and more brutal for most people, i think. How difficult/costly is it to get your own interstellar craft anyway?

That's how most of the characters are written unfortunately. But I suppose that is what gives them character. Some of it is emotional really.

It depends. The Empire banned some ships and/or the droids needed for them like R2 units for X-Wings. Other ships are either illegaly bought or illegally modified like Hutt ships or Smuggler vessels. But I would say the Empire mostly just let people have transport vessels with medium defense. But this is just my assumption.

[BLACKSUN2000]

And medical technology is significantly less advanced, I think (how many people in the federation die in childbirth? That's probably the only thing i've got, so it's not much, but still).

I guess you're talking about padame...

There a medical team attempted to save Amidala's life. However, they discovered that she was dying, having apparently lost the will to live. Her autopsy reports later suggested that she died after heavy larynx damage caused by Vader's force choke,though because there was no visible external trauma, this cause of death was initially overlooked.[

Well looks like wookiepedia says she died from being force choked and losing the will to live, not giving birth.

As for medical technology...if the federation could just regrow stuff what about Geordi's eyes? In SW they can regrow limbs but it's a lot cheapear and easier to get a prosthetic. Especially during a combat situation where medical conditions aren't going to be the best.

Also http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bacta

'nuff said.

[Imperial528]

No civilians have their own spaceships? I presume you've never heard of Harry Mudd, Cyrano Jones, or the captain of the Merchantman in Star Trek III, just to name three immediate examples off the top of my head? There were also several examples in TNG and DS9 too. Even so, whoopdeedoo, you can own your own ship in Star Wars. At least until it gets blown up by a TIE pilot.

I'd rather be in Star Trek. At least they don't seem to suffer from wars with various assholes every week.

Sorry, never watched any of the ST movies. Still, public transit seems to be a lot less available or developed in ST, although I am probably mistaken at this point. Even if both universes have equal levels of public transportation development, I would still chose SW, since if something decides to attack the planet I've taken up residence on, I can get away faster, and there's more civilized planets to chose from after that. Not to mention that by the very nature of there being more developed planets in the Empire than in the Federation there's even less chance still that the world I would live on became a target of something or someone who woke up saying "You know, I want to kill a bunch of people today." And that scenario seems to happen a lot in ST if you ask me, even if the disaster of the week is rarely planetary-scale stuff, the simple fact that there are far less worlds in the Federation than in the Empire means that there will be more chance of myself succumbing to a disaster in ST than in SW.

And I would also rather travel in a ship a bit more robust than the ST ships, since it seems that many disasters of the week are caused by a system failing, or that the disaster causes a system to fail, making it worse.

[BLACKSUN2000]

At least in SW you can buy a stock and legal frieghter and modify the crap out of it legal or otherwise. Examples Han Solo/Millenium Falcon, Dash Rendar/Outrider, Talon Karrde/Wilde Kardde, The Jade Shadow, Lando Calrissian/Lady Luck....all transports/yachts modified by rebels, pirates, criminals/smugglers.

I've never seen as many people owning starships in Trek or cars/motorcycles for that matter, hell some people looked down on people owning their own freighter in trek. Like in DS9.

I'd rather live in the SW galaxy, at least I can make a living and pilot a starship without belonging to communist federation that discorages space travel unless you're serving their military.

[BLACKSUN2000]

Also:

Modified freighter>>>>T.I.E.>>>>Standard civilian transport>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ST civilian ships.

The only reason you're getting shot at in SW is if pirates are after your ass or you pissed off the powers that be.

In ST it's more likely an alien probe or retarded anomaly will down your shuttle/transport in a hellish fireball. Even if you ar on a mission of peace there will always be xenophobic dickhead aliens not taking kindly to your presence. Also Q like being deciding to fuck with you every so often. No thanks.

[SapphireFox]

The OP is which universe you would want to live in, not which sector you want.

Well then, you have a chance of living in TNG Federation, TOS Romulan Empire, Enterprise Xindi, ancient Rome etc. Considering the main purpose of this site is TNG federation vs. Palpatine's empire, I'm going with those two.

I have to call bullshit on different times jake, a different time frame is not a difference in a sector. Learn your terminology before saying something that makes you look retarded. An area of space is not a period in time.

Fine, then take a proportion. I bet you the percentage of Imperial population that deals with some form of hardship is far greater than that of the federation population.

Oh and where do you want it? It's going to look different by perception no matter where you look. You could take a section of the outer rim that is a retched hive of scum and villainy or one that has never seen war at all. Do you want to see the hard working mid rim? The resource engine of the galaxy. How about the affluent core worlds? Some of those worlds make the federation look like a poor primitive backwater realm.

You can spin doctor the view to suit any position. For example you could say compare trek earth and raxus prime and one seems idyllic and peaceful the other a cesspool. Or swiching the view one could compare the lush worlds of kuat, naboo and/or kashyyyk to the anarchist hell where Tasha Yar grew up.

Yet they have only assimilated one federation colony city and a handful of federation starships.

What and do you think the federation are the only people that matter? The only sentient lifeforms worthy of anyone giving a damn about? I see now, you only give a shit about the federation and the rest of the galaxy can go to hell unless the problem crosses the fucking border.

No the empire would have sent more ships in and crushed the competitor completely without mercy or reservation. Under the Empire the Maqui situation never would have come about.

The empire would have sent more ships in and crushed them both for the inconvenience.

Then present your evidence for that ever being the case.

Once again, unless you want to research 25000 years of Star Wars history and >10000 years of milky way history I suggest we keep this between the empire and TNG federation.

Um how bout NO. I see no reason to arbitrarily change and restrict the topic in the OP just because you want it so.

As for the entity, it destroyed 12 colony worlds, most likely with a combined population less than alderaan.

You will of course provide evidence to back up that claim.

Most redshirts (yellow shirts in our case) are security officers, not soldiers. The fact that the Feds last so long without professional soldiers further reflects on the relatively peaceful climate of their surroundings. Even antagonists like the Romulans or Dominion use redshirt equivalents. Besides, If you don't want to be a redshirt in the federation, you don't have to be. You may not get that choice in the empire.

That's funny...

Well you are a soldier...

Care to backpedal any faster? There either soldiers or security officers pick one and if you pick security officers note that they still are often supplied with more gear then the average redshirt.

But he did give Picard the chance to solve a problem that Picard caused.

And if Q hadn't been shifting Picard in the first place the whole incident never would have happened. Its like you putting a rat in a maze that contains food near rat poison. Now if the rat dies is it his fault for being near the rat poison is it his fault or yours for putting him in that situation? Or if the rat lives yes the rat was smart enough to avoid the deadly peril, but who is at fault for putting him at risk in the first place?

More like one in seven, the monster of the week may be different each time and thus a billion to one individually but taken together we can see a pattern of deaths that have claimed more redshirts and extras then the crew complement of the first Enterprise.

Untill you can prove a significant deathtoll during the TNG era, I will assume you are full of shit. Hell considering most of this shit happens to one starship and a few sparsely populated colony worlds, you'll be hard pressed to prove a death toll comparable to World War 2.

The death toll of WWII was around 400 something? I wouldn't want to be near you if you tried to say that kind of bullshit to a veteran.

As for your challenge numbers lets see Alpha quadrant Trek would over the course of the listed time would be at least in the millions to tens of millions of deaths easy. Likely more if we could get a sense of what the other alpha quadrant powers suffered in deaths.

During TNG I'd put it at 1 million at the absolute very best. In fact, the Cardassian casualties during the dominion war the worst war in alpha quadrant history amount to about 11X those of world war two, and this is an interplanetary civilization we are talking about. To put it in star wars terms, this is 40% the population of Alderaan.

I have to call bullshit on that. You can't tell me that the whole of your specified bullshit time line was only one million. You already gave that 40% of Alderaan crap for the damn space snowflake alone so it is obvious that even in your own mind the crappy figures you give are being reduced artificially. As for the cardassians the bombardment of cardassia at the end of the dominion war alone would be a greater figure then even I claimed.
To explain, the cardassians are a decent sized space faring civilization so their homeworld population would be at least a populous as earth is now. So if you started bombarding the cities with WMD level weapons, (which starship weapons would be classified as in the modern era) then you would be loosing tens of millions to hundreds of millions of lives just from that incident alone.

PS: Jake you might want to use the preview button before hitting submit more often you might be able to fix that quote tag mess before it happens.

[SapphireFox]

At least in SW you can buy a stock and legal frieghter and modify the crap out of it legal or otherwise. Examples Han Solo/Millenium Falcon, Dash Rendar/Outrider, Talon Karrde/Wilde Kardde, The Jade Shadow, Lando Calrissian/Lady Luck....all transports/yachts modified by rebels, pirates, criminals/smugglers.

I've never seen as many people owning starships in Trek or cars/motorcycles for that matter, hell some people looked down on people owning their own freighter in trek. Like in DS9.

I'd rather live in the SW galaxy, at least I can make a living and pilot a starship without belonging to communist federation that discorages space travel unless you're serving their military.

Hells yea, the potential for owning your own spacecraft and cruising around the galaxy at your whim and pleasure makes almost any of the risks living there worthwhile. Want to go check out the best beaches in the galaxy? Head there yourself. You don't like or want to deal with somebody? Put a world between you and them.

You just can't do cool shit like that in star trek without your ship being beholden to someone else. Heaven forbid you choose to use your ship to make "gasp" money for yourself.

[Batman]

While the transporter incidents on the Big Es are indeed depressingly frequent those are ALSO the ships which would face situations which would CAUSE those incidents a lot more than regular civilian transporters so I doubt transporters are all that unreliable under ordinary circumstances.
On the other hand, I don't see why transporters are such a big deal. They have IIRC a range of 40,000 km. Whoopde-do-with Wars tech you just saved five to ten minutes travel time or so (probably less when you do the math for a least-time course with Wars acceleration).
And frankly while Wars atrocities were generally bigger than Trek atrocities, they were ALSO spread over an entire galaxy LARGER than the Milky Way. Given all the trouble that happened in the Alpha Quadrant alone, and in the decidedly tiny by comparison area the UFP claims to control, I very much suspect as a private citizen you're actually considerably safer under the Empire.

[Jake]

I have to call bullshit on different times jake, a different time frame is not a difference in a sector. Learn your terminology before saying something that makes you look retarded. An area of space is not a period in time.

The OP is what universe would you live in. The star wars universe covers >25000 years and the trek one covers >10000 (I think). I am simply arguing that if you say that you can be placed in a random sector based on the OP, why not a random time?

Oh and where do you want it? It's going to look different by perception no matter where you look. You could take a section of the outer rim that is a retched hive of scum and villainy or one that has never seen war at all. Do you want to see the hard working mid rim? The resource engine of the galaxy. How about the affluent core worlds? Some of those worlds make the federation look like a poor primitive backwater realm.

You can spin doctor the view to suit any position. For example you could say compare trek earth and raxus prime and one seems idyllic and peaceful the other a cesspool. Or swiching the view one could compare the lush worlds of kuat, naboo and/or kashyyyk to the anarchist hell where Tasha Yar grew up.

You are an idiot. You take the number of suffering people in the Star Wars galaxy and divide it by the total population of the star wars galaxy, than multiply by 100. You do the same with the federation, only using the population of the federation. This removes the factor of size, as it expresses societal suffering as a percentage. Aka if you appear as a federation citizen your life has X% chance of sucking and if you appear as an imperial citizen your life has Y% chance of sucking. Here's a hint: considering aliens in Wars are second class citizens, if you pop up as an alien you're already screwed.

What and do you think the federation are the only people that matter? The only sentient lifeforms worthy of anyone giving a damn about? I see now, you only give a shit about the federation and the rest of the galaxy can go to hell unless the problem crosses the fucking border.

Because when we think of trek vs wars we think feds vs empire. Everyone else in this thread but you seems to realize that this discussion is whether you would rather live in the UFP or the empire. If it was would you rather live in the Borg Collective or the Empire, there wouldn't be much of a discussion would there?

Then present your evidence for that ever being the case.

Uh, the rebel alliance?

Um how bout NO. I see no reason to arbitrarily change and restrict the topic in the OP just because you want it so.

Then I expect a detailed essay from you comparing every civilization ever to exist in the Star Wars galaxy with every civilization to exist in the milky way, as well as a probability of appearing in each to prove your assumption. Good luck, and see you next year.

You will of course provide evidence to back up that claim.

Go here: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Crystalline_entity. It even states that the deaths were in the thousands. Population of Alderaan = 2billion

Care to backpedal any faster? There either soldiers or security officers pick one and if you pick security officers note that they still are often supplied with more gear then the average redshirt.

No, they actually can be both. There's a difference between patrolling the corridors of the enterprise and fighting in the dominion war. One color of shirt often signifies different responsibilities in trek.

And if Q hadn't been shifting Picard in the first place the whole incident never would have happened. Its like you putting a rat in a maze that contains food near rat poison. Now if the rat dies is it his fault for being near the rat poison is it his fault or yours for putting him in that situation? Or if the rat lives yes the rat was smart enough to avoid the deadly peril, but who is at fault for putting him at risk in the first place?

No, if Q hadn't shifted Picard then the three enterprises wouldn't have been able to coordinate to remove the anomoly. What happened was a temporal paradox, the three enterprises created and destroyed the anomoly, not Q.

The death toll of WWII was around 400 something? I wouldn't want to be near you if you tried to say that kind of bullshit to a veteran.

It was around 70 million. What I was saying that you obviously couldn't understand is that one planet's world war easily eclipsed all violence of an interplanetary civilization. Pretty nice place to live if you think about it....

have to call bullshit on that. You can't tell me that the whole of your specified bullshit time line was only one million. You already gave that 40% of Alderaan crap for the damn space snowflake alone so it is obvious that even in your own mind the crappy figures you give are being reduced artificially

No I didn't it was for the cardassian casualties of the dominion war. Learn to read.

As for the cardassians the bombardment of cardassia at the end of the dominion war alone would be a greater figure then even I claimed.
To explain, the cardassians are a decent sized space faring civilization so their homeworld population would be at least a populous as earth is now. So if you started bombarding the cities with WMD level weapons, (which starship weapons would be classified as in the modern era) then you would be loosing tens of millions to hundreds of millions of lives just from that incident alone.

Exactly! A civilization who's idea of a massive interstellar war is comparable to a present day earth war... Pretty peaceful place to live if you ask me...

[hunter5]

I'd say Star Wars. I'd probably save up some money while working on a core world to buy my own spaceship and just settle down on some nice rural rim world, far away from conflicts, but keep my ship working and fueled in case some Vong-like wank comes out from nowhere.

To me, just being able to own a space capable vehicle for personal reasons is a huge plus in SW, as how many civilians do we see in ST who own warp-driven craft? Zip. At least in SW, when the terror of the day/week/month/year rears its ugly alien head I don't have to wait for a slow-ass government to send a slow-ass ship to negotiate with it, and when negotiations fail take even longer to evacuate civilians. In SW, I can simply take my own ship or public transit and get the hell out of there before the entire planet/system gets cluster-fucked.

No civilians have their own spaceships? I presume you've never heard of Harry Mudd, Cyrano Jones, or the captain of the Merchantman in Star Trek III, just to name three immediate examples off the top of my head? There were also several examples in TNG and DS9 too. Even so, whoopdeedoo, you can own your own ship in Star Wars. At least until it gets blown up by a TIE pilot.

I'd rather be in Star Trek. At least they don't seem to suffer from wars with various assholes every week.

Yeah it is the same group of assholes that alternate being assholes every week or so.

Star wars for me the ships are far safer ( not the flying bombs that they use in Trek) and if any thing the culture seems closer to modern Earth than Trek might be a bit easier to adapt.

[Temujin]

Star wars for me the ships are far safer ( not the flying bombs that they use in Trek) and if any thing the culture seems closer to modern Earth than Trek might be a bit easier to adapt.

That is one of the things I loved about the prequels, seeing more of how the average citizen lives. I literally found myself longing be transported into that world.

[SapphireFox]

The OP is what universe would you live in. The star wars universe covers >25000 years and the trek one covers >10000 (I think). I am simply arguing that if you say that you can be placed in a random sector based on the OP, why not a random time?

The problem with that is no one but you is arguing random anything. The OP asks what one would you want to live in, that is a choice not a random anything.

You are an idiot. You take the number of suffering people in the Star Wars galaxy and divide it by the total population of the star wars galaxy, than multiply by 100. You do the same with the federation, only using the population of the federation. This removes the factor of size, as it expresses societal suffering as a percentage. Aka if you appear as a federation citizen your life has X% chance of sucking and if you appear as an imperial citizen your life has Y% chance of sucking

Bullcrap. If your so called off the top of your head equation meant anything, you would have put in the numbers yourself and touted it as some kind of evidence already rather than expecting me to do your work for you.

Here's a hint: considering aliens in Wars are second class citizens, if you pop up as an alien you're already screwed.

What the hell are you smoking dude? It is a choice to which one would we want to live in, this isn't some kind of random spawn event in a game of some kind. Considering I am not an alien, why would you expect if I chose to live in the Star Wars universe that I would suddenly change my species? Seriously did you think that through or not?

Because when we think of trek vs wars we think feds vs empire. Everyone else in this thread but you seems to realize that this discussion is whether you would rather live in the UFP or the empire. If it was would you rather live in the Borg Collective or the Empire, there wouldn't be much of a discussion would there?

Nice try to appeal to the masses but you would be wrong. For example Moff Radec seems to want pre-empire naboo given his mention of blue shadow virus worries and the trade fed invading, and Soontir C'boath wants post Yuuzhan Vong invasion. So no not everyone is thinking empire vs feddie.

Go here: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Crystalline_entity. It even states that the deaths were in the thousands. Population of Alderaan = 2billion

Better evidence than you have put out before. However the number of people lost doesn't change the fact that it can and does depopulate whole worlds which is the entire point of the argument. Just because the trek verse is lucky only small colonies were hit and only a comparatively moderate amount of life was lost doesn't mean it can't wipe out any world it chooses to eat. It might not be as flashy as a BDZ but the world is just as lifeless.

No, they actually can be both. There's a difference between patrolling the corridors of the enterprise and fighting in the dominion war. One color of shirt often signifies different responsibilities in trek.

And how does this has any bearing on the fact that either way they are still underequipped?

No, if Q hadn't shifted Picard then the three enterprises wouldn't have been able to coordinate to remove the anomaly. What happened was a temporal paradox, the three enterprises created and destroyed the anomaly, not Q.

The point is that without the interference of Q the entire chain of events would never have occurred. btw fixed spelling for you.

It was around 70 million. What I was saying that you obviously couldn't understand is that one planet's world war easily eclipsed all violence of an interplanetary civilization. Pretty nice place to live if you think about it....

You seem to have missed the entire point of the statement and then somehow compared it to WWII.

Uh, the rebel alliance?

No dumb ass learn to read. I will try and ask again in the simplest way possible. When has the empire had to deal with an outside force acting against the empire's citizens and then turned their weapons against their own citizens afterwords.

Then I expect a detailed essay from you comparing every civilization ever to exist in the Star Wars galaxy with every civilization to exist in the milky way, as well as a probability of appearing in each to prove your assumption. Good luck, and see you next year.

Don't get cute with me buckwheat. This isn't a comparison of random or probability, its which would you chose to live in. All I have seen from you is claims that living in the Star Wars universe is some kind of deathtrap. If you did the numbers of how many people died in star wars to how many people there actually are in the SW galaxy I am quite certain that the percentage of deaths would surprise you. More likely given the insanely large number of people in the galaxy (most likely above the hundreds of septillions) the number of deaths (as I said earlier in the trillions) are not that many percentage wise by comparison. Like in the order of 0.0000000001% of a chance of you meeting an unnatural end.

Exactly! A civilization who's idea of a massive interstellar war is comparable to a present day earth war... Pretty peaceful place to live if you ask me...

Um no that is just for ONE battle. Admittedly yes it was a hiroshima level final battle but hardly unique fight or the only deaths in the war. For example the incident of destroying the dominion shipyard with a solar flare in the name of Jadzia Dax. That incident had to of cost the dominion in the tens of thousands of lives alone. Same with the battle in "Sacrifice of Angels" or the loss of the dominion fleet in the same episode.

[SapphireFox]

Star wars for me the ships are far safer ( not the flying bombs that they use in Trek) and if any thing the culture seems closer to modern Earth than Trek might be a bit easier to adapt.

Ah good point, chock that in with the good reasons to head over to the Wars verse to live in. I can't think of one wars ship that has blown up in an engine malfunction like in trek.

[RowanE]

And medical technology is significantly less advanced, I think (how many people in the federation die in childbirth? That's probably the only thing i've got, so it's not much, but still).

Padme was Force Choked by her husband and heartbroken. She was losing the will to live because Anakin thought she betrayed him and Anakin actually had suspicions of her and Obi-Wan having an affair as said in the novel. Still, being Force Choked (which actually causes more damage than it seems) and heartbroken is really hard to live through.

EDIT: Bacta and Kolto were also capable of healing severe wounds. A Republic soldier in Knights of the Old Republic stated that he "would have died dozens of times" if not for Kolto. Though, I say it depends on how exaggerated it was.

I was only really thinking of the movies, so i don't know that much about bacta... Yeah, that stuff looks pretty powerful. I'm not really sure now.

But she dies as she's giving birth, or immediately after, so i'd say it's in childbirth and not from the force-choking. In other instances in the movies, it's either immediately lethal, or the victim is fine afterwards ("vader, release him!").

I think the main point is that the stated reason is she's lost the will to live. So either medical science can't beat the placebo effect by much, or she's force-sensitive and able to subconsciously kill herself. Either way, it's not a desirable universe.

The only thing star wars seems to have going for it is faster ships. I'm not sure how the availability of space travel in each universe is, but I think slower travel is just a worthwhile sacrifice.

Don't forget deadlier. But I would rather travel half way across the Galaxy in a few days maybe a week or two than years.

Deadlier ships is bad. Unless you're an imperial officer, those ships are mainly shooting at you, if anything. If you are an imperial officer, darth vader just force-choked you to death for whatever.

Life in star wars is shorter and more brutal for most people, i think. How difficult/costly is it to get your own interstellar craft anyway?

That's how most of the characters are written unfortunately. But I suppose that is what gives them character. Some of it is emotional really.

It depends. The Empire banned some ships and/or the droids needed for them like R2 units for X-Wings. Other ships are either illegaly bought or illegally modified like Hutt ships or Smuggler vessels. But I would say the Empire mostly just let people have transport vessels with medium defense. But this is just my assumption.

I was more thinking about in comparison with trek... In which is the common man more likely to a) get from star to star and b) have his own starship?

[Moff Radec]

I was only really thinking of the movies, so i don't know that much about bacta... Yeah, that stuff looks pretty powerful. I'm not really sure now.

Here's the articles on Bacta and Kolto

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bacta

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kolto

But she dies as she's giving birth, or immediately after, so i'd say it's in childbirth and not from the force-choking. In other instances in the movies, it's either immediately lethal, or the victim is fine afterwards ("vader, release him!").

It was childbirth. It was in Anakins visions but Force-Choke is indeed very lethal. It damages the larynx and breathing tubes which brings in the suffocation and choking parts of it.

I think the main point is that the stated reason is she's lost the will to live. So either medical science can't beat the placebo effect by much, or she's force-sensitive and able to subconsciously kill herself. Either way, it's not a desirable universe.

It was the Force Choke, childbirth, and to some speculation the broken heart.

Deadlier ships is bad. Unless you're an ... whatever.

They aren't mainly shooting at you. It depends on what you're doing around those deadly ships. If you're attacking them or trying to mess around their business by violating their territories then of course they are going to shoot at you. The Empire didn't let anyone just waltz right into their territory where they could be doing a seceret project or a sector that civilians weren't supposed to be. And Vader only choked Officers for disappointing failures. Like Kendal Ozzel for jumping too close to the Hoth system where the Rebels could detect them or Lorth Needa for losing the Millienium Falcon. He let Piett go because of an unforseeable factor.

I was more thinking about in comparison with trek... In which is the common man more likely to a) get from star to star and b) have his own starship?

What do you mean?

[Jake]

The problem with that is no one but you is arguing random anything. The OP asks what one would you want to live in, that is a choice not a random anything.

What the hell are you smoking dude? It is a choice to which one would we want to live in, this isn't some kind of random spawn event in a game of some kind. Considering I am not an alien, why would you expect if I chose to live in the Star Wars universe that I would suddenly change my species? Seriously did you think that through or not?

Nice try to appeal to the masses but you would be wrong. For example Moff Radec seems to want pre-empire naboo given his mention of blue shadow virus worries and the trade fed invading, and Soontir C'boath wants post Yuuzhan Vong invasion. So no not everyone is thinking empire vs feddie.

Don't get cute with me buckwheat. This isn't a comparison of random or probability, its which would you chose to live in. All I have seen from you is claims that living in the Star Wars universe is some kind of deathtrap. If you did the numbers of how many people died in star wars to how many people there actually are in the SW galaxy I am quite certain that the percentage of deaths would surprise you. More likely given the insanely large number of people in the galaxy (most likely above the hundreds of septillions) the number of deaths (as I said earlier in the trillions) are not that many percentage wise by comparison. Like in the order of 0.0000000001% of a chance of you meeting an unnatural end.

So we get to choose when and where we live then, as well as who we want to be? Then I guess I would go with Wars for the simple fact that I could be a jedi and stop this whole empire business from ever happening. Then maybe reform the republic government to be effective, and with the tech level they have maybe the galaxy could be made into a decent place to live for everyone. As for the 0.0000000001% thing, with 12 million inhabited star systems, assuming a population of 10 billion for each (averaging coruscant and other core worlds with outer rim territories) that would put the death toll at 12,000,000, when we know that with the destruction of Alderaan and Camaas it is at least on the order of 10 billion.

Bullcrap. If your so called off the top of your head equation meant anything, you would have put in the numbers yourself and touted it as some kind of evidence already rather than expecting me to do your work for you.

I tried, but wookieepedia doesn't have casualty information for the entire span of the clone wars.

Better evidence than you have put out before. However the number of people lost doesn't change the fact that it can and does depopulate whole worlds which is the entire point of the argument. Just because the trek verse is lucky only small colonies were hit and only a comparatively moderate amount of life was lost doesn't mean it can't wipe out any world it chooses to eat. It might not be as flashy as a BDZ but the world is just as lifeless.

It was destroyed, so it would no longer be a threat.\

And how does this has any bearing on the fact that either way they are still underequipped?

They are not under equipped for their universe. They are roughly equivalent to the other major powers.

The point is that without the interference of Q the entire chain of events would never have occurred. btw fixed spelling for you.

Ok, I guess Q did cause it, but considering it didn't cause any real harm, it doesn't really affect a federation citizen's way of life.

No dumb ass learn to read. I will try and ask again in the simplest way possible. When has the empire had to deal with an outside force acting against the empire's citizens and then turned their weapons against their own citizens afterwords.

There really is no outside force considering the empire controlls the entire galaxy, but they obviously have turned their weapons on the own citizens.

Um no that is just for ONE battle. Admittedly yes it was a hiroshima level final battle but hardly unique fight or the only deaths in the war. For example the incident of destroying the dominion shipyard with a solar flare in the name of Jadzia Dax. That incident had to of cost the dominion in the tens of thousands of lives alone. Same with the battle in "Sacrifice of Angels" or the loss of the dominion fleet in the same episode.

No, it was for the war, look it up. Also, on memory alpha, it there were 30,000 dominion starships at its height. A Jem Hadar fighter has a crew of 42. This would give a maximum estimate of 1.26million space casualties. Considering ground battles were rarely mentioned in the dominion war, multiplying this by two should account for them. The cardassians had such a high casualty rate because the dominion opened fire on their homeworld for switching sides. So, assuming the federation's casualties were similar to the Jem Hadar's, and assuming a population of around 6billion for each of the federation's 150 planets, we would have .00028% of the federation's population killed in the dominion war.

[Soontir C'boath]

I was only really thinking of the movies, so i don't know that much about bacta... Yeah, that stuff looks pretty powerful.

If you saw the movies, then you had seen Luke getting treated for presumably possible hypothermia and the wounds he received from the Wampa attack.

I'm not really sure now.

Then please shut the fuck up if you don't know what you're talking about.

But she dies as she's giving birth, or immediately after, so i'd say it's in childbirth and not from the force-choking.

Right, on your say so that the force choke couldn't have possibly done any physical damaged to her larynx/lungs that can complicate the childbirth. Not like she collapsed after Anakin released her and had to be carried away either.

In other instances in the movies, it's either immediately lethal, or the victim is fine afterwards ("vader, release him!").

In other words, Anakin/Vader can control how bad he can choke his intended victim.

I think the main point is that the stated reason is she's lost the will to live. So either medical science can't beat the placebo effect by much,

What do you mean beat the placebo effect? She was choked and then later on went into labor which is not an easy thing to go through.

or she's force-sensitive and able to subconsciously kill herself. Either way, it's not a desirable universe.

Did this come from the book or out your ass? I'm betting latter.

It's a gross generalization to say it's an undesirable universe to live in just by this one death under circumstances you don't seem to grasp too well.

Deadlier ships is bad. Unless you're an imperial officer, those ships are mainly shooting at you, if anything.

I'm reading the quotes before this and I don't know what you are talking about. If you're on a warship, you should expect to be shot at whether you're enlisted or an officer. You're on the same damn ship.

If you are an imperial officer, darth vader just force-choked you to death for whatever.

Right, because the chance of Darth Vader being aboard your vessel in a navy with at least 25,000 star destroyers is great. Even then, Vader did it to two incompetent officers.

[Imperial528]

I'd like to add to the thing about Padme's death, IIRC in the movie when Obi-Wan asks the medical doctor (or was it a droid?) about Padme's condition the doctor states that she is perfectly healthy and that there is no biological reason for her to be dying, so they both conclude that she has lost the will to live.

[Moff Radec]

Ah that is a good point. I know the Force Choke should have done something that made her look a bit unhealthy. Perhaps Vader just seized her lungs up? In the Clone Wars he tried to massage a dying Jedi's windpipe but he accidently made her death more painful by making her stop breathing. So now I assume he stopped her from breathing without damaging her laryinx and lungs etc.? Or would that just be a step too far?

[Soontir C'boath]

I really wish I had a copy of RotS or if it was on Spike again. Anyway, either damage was never done (which I find unlikely although yes he may have pulled a Motti) or the medical staff repaired it. I wouldn't have a patient giving birth with a damaged larynx/lungs when breathing right is key during childbirth.

[SapphireFox]

So we get to choose when and where we live then, as well as who we want to be? Then I guess I would go with Wars for the simple fact that I could be a jedi and stop this whole empire business from ever happening. Then maybe reform the republic government to be effective, and with the tech level they have maybe the galaxy could be made into a decent place to live for everyone.

Cool... Jedi Jake, sounds like a good webcomic title. I you wish the best of luck in the endeavor.

As for the 0.0000000001% thing, with 12 million inhabited star systems, assuming a population of 10 billion for each (averaging coruscant and other core worlds with outer rim territories) that would put the death toll at 12,000,000, when we know that with the destruction of Alderaan and Camaas it is at least on the order of 10 billion

Sounds like a good average for the planetary populations to me. So I missed the decimal place by a few digits easily fixable. Its closer to 0.00001% still damn good odds for not dying or suffering a horrible end. I suspect that it is probably better odds than our modern world.

It was destroyed, so it would no longer be a threat.

The space snowflake was destroyed IIRC in late TNG so the early to mid TNG era according to your personal time line is still a legitimate threat/concern.

They are not under equipped for their universe. They are roughly equivalent to the other major powers.

The klingons have armor the cardassians have armor heck even the heavily padded romulan uniform likely can function as a form of padded armor against knives. Not to mention that the one or two times that the feddies were so equipped was back in Kirks era and those were security forces.

Ok, I guess Q did cause it, but considering it didn't cause any real harm, it doesn't really affect a federation citizen's way of life.

So you think that roaming Kami-like beings whose entertainment is screwing with lesser beings isn't worthy of any concern?

There really is no outside force considering the empire controlls the entire galaxy, but they obviously have turned their weapons on the own citizens.

The chiss and the other unknown regions races/groups may disagree with you. Not to mention that the galaxy has not even been fully explored only about 3/4 of the easy to get to portions have been.

No, it was for the war, look it up. Also, on memory alpha, it there were 30,000 dominion starships at its height. A Jem Hadar fighter has a crew of 42. This would give a maximum estimate of 1.26million space casualties.

Unfortunately for you such a simplistic view does not account for the dominion battle-cruisers with over 2500 crew IIRC those are are aound a twenty to one for fighter to battle-cruiser ratios. Whos crews account for another 410,000 alone. The cardassian ships have a crew of over 400 each and don't forget the breen ships so on ships alone you are looking at least another million. add to that the possible hundred million plus for the destruction of cardassia. All of that is just for dominion side casualties.
As you said the feds lost at least as many as the jem'hadar so they lost at least 3 million total millitary and civilian. the klingons were suffering just as bad as the federation so add another million same with the romulans add less for the late entry so add say ~500,000 tops.
putting the totals together you come out with a rough figure of over ~107,170,000 deaths.

Oh, and your 0.00028% figure of federation deaths is far greater then the 0.00001% for the deaths in the whole star wars galaxy.
I guess that makes your federation a more dangerous place to live than the entire SW galaxy.

[Jake]

Cool... Jedi Jake, sounds like a good webcomic title. I you wish the best of luck in the endeavor.

Palpatine did ok against 4 jedi, so lets see how he fares against 100.

Sounds like a good average for the planetary populations to me. So I missed the decimal place by a few digits easily fixable. Its closer to 0.00001% still damn good odds for not dying or suffering a horrible end. I suspect that it is probably better odds than our modern world.

That's only Alderaan and Camaas. You then have to account for all of the purges, the galactic civil war, the regional governers, who according to Wookieepedia regularly commit atrocities (don't know how they define an atrocity in star wars terms but considering they had to blow up pacifist core world to get people really pissed I really don't want to know...), the enslavement of species (primarily wookiees) to build the death star, the slaves who built Palpatine's estate on Byss and were subsequently fed on by Palpatine to increase his own life, the worlds Palpatine gave to the Ssii Ruuvi, the casualties of the first and second deathstar, and the clone wars, and these are just the injustices under Palpatine.

The space snowflake was destroyed IIRC in late TNG so the early to mid TNG era according to your personal time line is still a legitimate threat/concern.

Q

If you live on a sparsely populated colony world. You probably have a larger chance of something bad to you happening if you live in the outer rim, considering the prevalence of pirates, gangsters, imperials, and bounty hunters.

The klingons have armor the cardassians have armor heck even the heavily padded romulan uniform likely can function as a form of padded armor against knives. Not to mention that the one or two times that the feddies were so equipped was back in Kirks era and those were security forces.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/memor ... x-Kurn.jpg
Doesn't look like armor to me, just alien pajamas.

So you think that roaming Kami-like beings whose entertainment is screwing with lesser beings isn't worthy of any concern?

Its only Q that does it. The other Q even punish Q for doing it. Besides, there have really only been like 1 Q related death of a federation citizen that I can recall.

The chiss and the other unknown regions races/groups may disagree with you. Not to mention that the galaxy has not even been fully explored only about 3/4 of the easy to get to portions have been.

The chiss are isolationist. In fact, the only time I can recall that the empire came into contact with a non-member species, it was the Ssi Ruuvi where palpatine promised them dozens of imperial worlds and millions of imperial citizens to drain the life out of in exchange for their technology.

Unfortunately for you such a simplistic view does not account for the dominion battle-cruisers with over 2500 crew IIRC those are are aound a twenty to one for fighter to battle-cruiser ratios.

Ok, then we have (20/21)*30000*42+(1/21)*30000*2500 = 4,771,428. Pretty close to my original estimate, and still only 6.8% the casualties of WWII. Considering the vast majority of the war was in space, the ground casualties shouldn't greatly effect the result. Remember that this is a very high end estimate since the federation had fewer ships than the dominion and they obviously were not all destroyed (they won after all). Since this was probably the deadliest event in federation history, and did not occur during the TNG federation, we can pretty much assume that the TNG federation was a pretty nice place to live.