Religious relativity...

Temjin · Post by **Temjin** » 2003-02-19 09:44pm

That reminds me so much of a "debate" I had at Rapture Ready. I had them falling over themselves trying to explain to me why a homicidal raper can go to heaven but a atheist that dies saving a bus load of children will go to hell. Hilarious shit.

Consequently, I was also banned for that thread.

[Edit] For anyone that wants to take a look at the thread, the address is http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=& ... genumber=1 (Copy & paste it into your address bar.)

Take a guess who I am.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-02-19 10:14pm

Cap'n Hector wrote:
Superman wrote:When fundies witness to potential converts, I always ask them about the "dead rising from the grave" stuff in Revelation. People don't seem to stick around for long after that...
Plus, as I recall, only a few hundred thousand people will be saved at that point...I get the feeling that all the slots are filled already..

144,000. 12,000 each from the twelve tribes. Revelation's all symbolism anyway, though of course the fundies don't understand the symbolism of Jewish eschatological writing anyway (then again, neither do most Christians...it's hard even as a religion/theology major to understand that stuff. Makes me think maybe some ancient Jewish cult discovered LSD back in the first century).

As far as repentance and such, I've always been taught that you must genuinely be sorry for what you have done and ask forgiveness. While Catholics require confession to a priest, most Protestant denominations do not require a confession to a person, and thus redemption is much harder to judge (though that's like saying 99 trillion is a lot more than 98 trillion, 999 billion, IMHO). However, punishment applied by a government still must occur because there are consequences to actions, and to ignore this would be to ignore justice. Like Mike said, you may be genuinely sorry you killed someone, but that doesn't mean you can be trusted in society (OK, so that's not what Mike said, but it's in the same general spirit). People who have committed crimes before are statistically more likely to commit crimes in the future, and thus must be watched closer than other citizens, and all criminals must be disciplined. In a way it's like training a dog...swift discipline must be applied to prevent further problems.

Morat · Post by **Morat** » 2003-02-19 10:35pm

If you murder my son and you repent, and you truly understand that what you did was wrong, then you will fucking understand when I take a goddamned circular saw and cut you in half from the crotch up.

No apology or repentance can make up for something like that, and it is a ridiculous Christian brainbug to believe that if someone repents, this somehow absolves him of responsibility for the crime, so that he does not have to face punishment.

I don't recall anyone suggesting that repentance would absolve someone of all responsibility.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-19 10:38pm

Morat wrote:
If you murder my son and you repent, and you truly understand that what you did was wrong, then you will fucking understand when I take a goddamned circular saw and cut you in half from the crotch up.

No apology or repentance can make up for something like that, and it is a ridiculous Christian brainbug to believe that if someone repents, this somehow absolves him of responsibility for the crime, so that he does not have to face punishment.
I don't recall anyone suggesting that repentance would absolve someone of all responsibility.

Well, if you read the first page, there's a lot of discussion over the importance of being truly sorry, subtext being that if you're truly sorry, you're forgiven and you don't deserve the eternal damnation that you would otherwise receive in this wonderful morality system known as Christianity. My point is simple: what the fuck difference does it make whether you are sorry? YOU STILL FUCKING DID IT, and the price must still be paid.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-02-19 10:51pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Morat wrote:
If you murder my son and you repent, and you truly understand that what you did was wrong, then you will fucking understand when I take a goddamned circular saw and cut you in half from the crotch up.

No apology or repentance can make up for something like that, and it is a ridiculous Christian brainbug to believe that if someone repents, this somehow absolves him of responsibility for the crime, so that he does not have to face punishment.
I don't recall anyone suggesting that repentance would absolve someone of all responsibility.
Well, if you read the first page, there's a lot of discussion over the importance of being truly sorry, subtext being that if you're truly sorry, you're forgiven and you don't deserve the eternal damnation that you would otherwise receive in this wonderful morality system known as Christianity. My point is simple: what the fuck difference does it make whether you are sorry? YOU STILL FUCKING DID IT, and the price must still be paid.

In other words, the well known fact that Christanity dosen't care about justice, it cares about "forgiveness". Actually, it really dosen't even care about that... all you really need to do get into heaven is "believe" in Jesus.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-02-19 10:54pm

arrow: i hadnt thought about that. Thats brilliant! Tho perhaps a sawsall would work better since the blade is about the same length and it would cut through bone more easilly. I also think circsaws are likely to jam when lots of grit gets in them, grit from bone stuck together by blood.. shit like that.

Cap'n Hector · Post by **Cap'n Hector** » 2003-02-19 10:54pm

[Hedges bet]
I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savoiur.
[/Hedges bet]

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-19 10:57pm

Cap'n Hector wrote:[Hedges bet]
I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savoiur.
[/Hedges bet]

You have blasphemed against CROM by accepting this false prophet! From high on his mountain, he SMITES you!!!!!

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-02-19 11:00pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Cap'n Hector wrote:[Hedges bet]
I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savoiur.
[/Hedges bet]
You have blasphemed against CROM by accepting this false prophet! From high on his mountain, he SMITES you!!!!!

At least Crom knew the secret of steel....

Cap'n Hector · Post by **Cap'n Hector** » 2003-02-19 11:04pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Cap'n Hector wrote:[Hedges bet]
I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savoiur.
[/Hedges bet]
You have blasphemed against CROM by accepting this false prophet! From high on his mountain, he SMITES you!!!!!

That singed my hair!

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-19 11:28pm

"If there is a god, may he strike me dead! See? Nothing happ -- wait, I got a little cramp in my leg ... and my balls hurt. Oh, wait, all better. Must have been Joe Pesci."
-George Carlin

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-19 11:46pm

right, Im joining up. This will be amusing.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2003-02-20 07:53am

What I love is that woman getting a divorce to get out of an abusive marriage is supposed to go to hell... Damned if you, damned if you don't!

Yeah, Crom-ism. Sounds good to me! Conan the Barbarian has got to be one of the best movies ever.

Kojikun, your right about the sawsall.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-02-20 08:03am

neoolong wrote:
neoolong wrote:
innerbrat wrote:As I understand it, you can go on a rape and pillage spree through Italy, accept Jesus int your heart and you'll go to Heaven. It's a concept called repentance.
Of course, you have to REALLY repent, not just pay lip service to God. He knows, y'know...
In other words, you don't have to feel sorry for any of your previous actions. Just accept Jesus into your heart afterwards. After all it is your faith that gets you into heaven, not your actions.

That's what a deathbed confession is for.

[/quote]
Priest to Voltaire on his Deathbed: Won't you repent and renounce the devil?
Voltaire:This is no time to make more enemies.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-02-20 05:38pm

Darth Wong wrote:If you murder my son and you repent, and you truly understand that what you did was wrong, then you will fucking understand when I take a goddamned circular saw and cut you in half from the crotch up.

No apology or repentance can make up for something like that, and it is a ridiculous Christian brainbug to believe that if someone repents, this somehow absolves him of responsibility for the crime, so that he does not have to face punishment.

While I agree with you about the first part, I don't agree that it is a Christian brainbug. Repenting in no way will save you from being responsible for your actions, especially here on earth. In the afterlife well that is between you and God, but I wouldn't count on getting into heaven mainly because if they know what they did was wrong then they also know they have to suffer for their wrong doing(go to hell).

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-20 06:18pm

Death from the Sea wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:If you murder my son and you repent, and you truly understand that what you did was wrong, then you will fucking understand when I take a goddamned circular saw and cut you in half from the crotch up.

No apology or repentance can make up for something like that, and it is a ridiculous Christian brainbug to believe that if someone repents, this somehow absolves him of responsibility for the crime, so that he does not have to face punishment.
While I agree with you about the first part, I don't agree that it is a Christian brainbug. Repenting in no way will save you from being responsible for your actions, especially here on earth. In the afterlife well that is between you and God, but I wouldn't count on getting into heaven mainly because if they know what they did was wrong then they also know they have to suffer for their wrong doing(go to hell).

Then why bother repenting? If you make a major fuck-up in this lifetime and that automatically condemns you to Hell, why bother? The whole point (in certain denominations) is that anyone can be forgiven and that all you have to do is accept the forgiveness of an unreptentent mass-murderer to avoid Hell.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-02-21 12:29am

The reason for repenting is so that you may be forgiven, but if you are repenting to avoid your trip to hell, then your motives are not pure or true. Besides those that repent for their deeds that send them to hell, get to ascend to heaven on judgement day.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-21 12:35am

Death from the Sea wrote:The reason for repenting is so that you may be forgiven, but if you are repenting to avoid your trip to hell, then your motives are not pure or true. Besides those that repent for their deeds that send them to hell, get to ascend to heaven on judgement day.

The whole point of the religion is to avoid Hell! Why do you think they spend so much time scaring the shit out of you with images of fire and brimstone?! If God tells you to do something, you have to do it, no matter how heinous or atrocious it is, and that shows that the only moral system in Christianity is an appeal to fear.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-21 12:39am

o_O how long does it take to join up? I wrote in a sign form, but they wont let me post.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-02-21 01:36am

Durandal wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:The reason for repenting is so that you may be forgiven, but if you are repenting to avoid your trip to hell, then your motives are not pure or true. Besides those that repent for their deeds that send them to hell, get to ascend to heaven on judgement day.
The whole point of the religion is to avoid Hell! Why do you think they spend so much time scaring the shit out of you with images of fire and brimstone?! If God tells you to do something, you have to do it, no matter how heinous or atrocious it is, and that shows that the only moral system in Christianity is an appeal to fear.

You obviously don't understand, because the whole point of "religion" is not to avoid hell. I have never had the shit scared out of me when I go to church, and don't know anyone who has. God does not force anyone to do anything, he gave everyone free will so that they can make their own choices right or wrong.I am not a christian because I fear God, I have never understood the term "God fearing christian" because God loves everyone and hates no one. What christianity does appeal to is LOVE, not fear, as do many other religions. If you are an aetheist you are not going to be able to understand something you don't even believe exists and I mean truly understand, not just pay lip service and claim to understand. I am not saying that to be an aetheist is wrong, to each his/her own. Let me put it to you like this: Darkstar did not believe that Star Wars tech was superior to Star Trek tech, so he could not understand the concept. simply put one can not understand that which one does not believe.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-21 01:50am

Death from the Sea wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:The reason for repenting is so that you may be forgiven, but if you are repenting to avoid your trip to hell, then your motives are not pure or true. Besides those that repent for their deeds that send them to hell, get to ascend to heaven on judgement day.
The whole point of the religion is to avoid Hell! Why do you think they spend so much time scaring the shit out of you with images of fire and brimstone?! If God tells you to do something, you have to do it, no matter how heinous or atrocious it is, and that shows that the only moral system in Christianity is an appeal to fear.
You obviously don't understand, because the whole point of "religion" is not to avoid hell.

Actually the whole point of religion was to get the common man to do the bitch work of the elite. Temple/state model. You see it in Egypt you see it in Phonecia(sp).

I have never had the shit scared out of me when I go to church, and don't know anyone who has.

Good for you. What kind of sermons where they? The ones that go, love God, do everything he says even if you don't want to, bend to his will, and give up our own, or else you'll burn in fire?

God does not force anyone to do anything, he gave everyone free will so that they can make their own choices right or wrong.

If God gave us free will, then why is there a heaven or a hell? He is using his power to influence our choices, that means it isn't free will. If there were no heaven or hell, then it would be free will.

I am not a christian because I fear God, I have never understood the term "God fearing christian" because God loves everyone and hates no one.

Then why is it that supposedly on those that acknowledge God's existance go to heaven? Sending people to eternal damnation sure doesn't seem like just a slight case of dislike.

What christianity does appeal to is LOVE, not fear, as do many other religions.

As in love me or I'll throw your ass in hell?

If you are an aetheist you are not going to be able to understand something you don't even believe exists and I mean truly understand, not just pay lip service and claim to understand.

Uh, no. I don't believe that elves and hobbits exist, but I can understand The Lord of the Rings.

I am not saying that to be an aetheist is wrong, to each his/her own. Let me put it to you like this: Darkstar did not believe that Star Wars tech was superior to Star Trek tech, so he could not understand the concept. simply put one can not understand that which one does not believe.

And again, no. Darkstar didn't believe that SW tech was better because he was an idiot with an impentrable Wall of Ignorance.

You can understand the concept, and still not believe in it.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-21 03:10am

Death from the Sea wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:The reason for repenting is so that you may be forgiven, but if you are repenting to avoid your trip to hell, then your motives are not pure or true. Besides those that repent for their deeds that send them to hell, get to ascend to heaven on judgement day.
The whole point of the religion is to avoid Hell! Why do you think they spend so much time scaring the shit out of you with images of fire and brimstone?! If God tells you to do something, you have to do it, no matter how heinous or atrocious it is, and that shows that the only moral system in Christianity is an appeal to fear.
You obviously don't understand, because the whole point of "religion" is not to avoid hell. I have never had the shit scared out of me when I go to church, and don't know anyone who has. God does not force anyone to do anything, he gave everyone free will so that they can make their own choices right or wrong.I am not a christian because I fear God, I have never understood the term "God fearing christian" because God loves everyone and hates no one. What christianity does appeal to is LOVE, not fear, as do many other religions. If you are an aetheist you are not going to be able to understand something you don't even believe exists and I mean truly understand, not just pay lip service and claim to understand. I am not saying that to be an aetheist is wrong, to each his/her own. Let me put it to you like this: Darkstar did not believe that Star Wars tech was superior to Star Trek tech, so he could not understand the concept. simply put one can not understand that which one does not believe.

I worship god cuz he scares the hell out of me. only reason.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-02-21 08:25am

Death from the Sea wrote:Simply put one can not understand that which one does not believe.

Don't be an idiot. I don't believe in Santa Claus but I understand the concept and the story perfectly.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-02-21 09:51am

neoolong wrote: Actually the whole point of religion was to get the common man to do the bitch work of the elite. Temple/state model. You see it in Egypt you see it in Phonecia(sp).

Good for you. What kind of sermons where they? The ones that go, love God, do everything he says even if you don't want to, bend to his will, and give up our own, or else you'll burn in fire?

If God gave us free will, then why is there a heaven or a hell? He is using his power to influence our choices, that means it isn't free will. If there were no heaven or hell, then it would be free will.

Then why is it that supposedly on those that acknowledge God's existance go to heaven? Sending people to eternal damnation sure doesn't seem like just a slight case of dislike.

As in love me or I'll throw your ass in hell?

Uh, no. I don't believe that elves and hobbits exist, but I can understand The Lord of the Rings.

The Egypt and Phonecia example are just examples of how a good thing can be twisted and perverted into a bad thing. But it is not the reason religion was created.
Just because you see those idiots on TV saying things similar to those comments does not mean all or most of every sermon is the same.
NO Free will? yes, there is free will, otherwise how could someone CHOOSE to not believe, or CHOOSE to believe. God might have a plan, but I don't believe it has predetermined everything for anyone.
Parents love their children but still punish them, just like God loves his children and punishes them. The reason we do punish is because in the end it is good for you, makes you a better person by learning from your mistakes.
Love is taught as in Love conquers all, not hate, or fear.
The difference is that God and hobbits are two different concepts. God being a much more difficult one to understand, and unless you have taken the time to study the bible or take worship classes, I don't see how you can actually understand since you don't believe.
No need to reply to this cause I won't anymore cause it seems this is going to escalate out of control resulting in a board ban, probably of me since I am a christian "preaching".

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-21 10:02am

neoolong wrote: In other words, you don't have to feel sorry for any of your previous actions. Just accept Jesus into your heart afterwards. After all it is your faith that gets you into heaven, not your actions.

Presumably you will "feel sorry" for your past actions if you've truly repented.