Armed Forces Immigrants (US)

[Ritterin Sophia]

In a certain HoS thread we came upon a tangent that I felt interesting to talk about.

We got onto the topic of how the US Citizenship & Immigration Services did not automatically give foreign members of the Armed Forces citizenship, made it easier but not simply given what I feel many agree they deserve. Eion made this article apparent to me. According to the information there are currently sixty-eight thousand immigrants as of '08, since '01 only about thirty-seven thousand or so have been naturalized by the USCIS and one-hundred eleven of those were posthumous.

So here's my thoughts, I think there needs to be an initiative to make completion of your contract in the Armed Services qualify you for automatic citizenship. Now some of you may ask why not simply signing up? This is because in my, admittedly limited, experience (I finished my two month long BCT, got injured in AIT, and spent about ten months attempting to heal from it only to be Med-Boarded) there are way too many ways for people to fuck up in the military to nullify their contract early. In the mean time any family (spouse, children, and dependent parents) of the service member would be treated as a naturalized citizen for all intents and purposes except of course voting. At the end of their service, upon reenlistment, or death in action whichever may come first (obviously we hope the latter never occurs) the service member and his family are considered naturalized citizens.

Now as an addendum to that, I think it could successfully argued for a new classification of citizen that is equal to a 'Natural Born Citizen' in all respects. The reason I feel this way is that, as much as I loathe the typical use of the phrase, I find it would be extremely difficult to argue that someone who became a citizen through by putting their lives on the line for a nation they have no commitment to is not a 'Real American'.


Thoughts? Corrections? Criticisms? Calls to name me an overly statist and militarist moron?

[Aaron]

Statist teat sucking scum!

Like I said in the HoS thread, these are the folks you want as citizens. The French give FFL members citizenship after 7 years (IIRC), I don't see why the same can't be done to foreign born members of the US military. Whatever you want to call it, give them the same rights and privileges as a regular citizen, as well as their families upon completion of their contract.

One question I have though is that from my understanding, US members sign on for eight years and can split that between Active and Reserve time in a variety of ways. Should a foreign member be required to do his entire contract as Active to gain his citizenship?

[eion]

I would only add that I think being wounded in combat should qualify you for application for immediate citizenship as well (as it does in the French Foreign Legion).

And I think what you mean by treating family during the service-members enlistment period as "naturalized citizen(s) for all intents and purposes except of course voting" is that they ought to be classified as Permanent Residents, which carry almost all the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.

As for creating a new class to supplement "natural born citizen", as far as I know, the only field of American endeavor denied to naturalized citizens is holding the office of President or Vice President. It would make far more sense in my book to allow naturalized citizens who have lived in this country at least X number of years to hold the office of President.

This should slowly remove any stigma associated with naturalized citizenship over time. To create another class of citizenship (“Battleborn Citizen” or whatever you call it) would seem to only stratify American culture even further and place undue weight on military service as a prerequisite for running for President.

I actually think the concept of an American Foreign Legion is a concept worth exploring.

[eion]

The French give FFL members citizenship after 7 years (IIRC)

Just double-checked. A service contract with the FFL is 5 years, but after 3 years a legionaire may apply for French citizen assuming they are serving under their own name and are in good standing with the law.

[General Mung Beans]

I support this plan.

[Havok]

Other than making the process exceedingly less complicated for those that want it, I don't see a reason to change it. If you want to be an American citizen, you apply for it. Those that want to can, those that don't, won't.

I also don't by into the idea that these are the people you want to make citizens just because they signed up for military service. There are quite a few reasons that one may sign up for service and not all of them, if any, are likely to be 'fight and die for my country'.

I also don't like the spouse/dependents riding on the coat tails. Yes, they may support the person in the military or deal with hardships because of it, but this in not a conscription force, it is a volunteer force. In any case it is a choice that was made, not forced upon anyone. I would say that the process should be made just as easy as for the person serving, but again, not automatic and should be a choice made by the individuals and undertaken by them.

[Aaron]

Other than making the process exceedingly less complicated for those that want it, I don't see a reason to change it. If you want to be an American citizen, you apply for it. Those that want to can, those that don't, won't.

I also don't by into the idea that these are the people you want to make citizens just because they signed up for military service. There are quite a few reasons that one may sign up for service and not all of them, if any, are likely to be 'fight and die for my country'.

True enough. It's probably just my personal bias showing, I tend to think better of those that join. That said, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be an option, I figure it's a decent reward for signing up. No one says you actually have to take it, the Gurkas go back home after their done.

I also don't like the spouse/dependents riding on the coat tails. Yes, they may support the person in the military or deal with hardships because of it, but this in not a conscription force, it is a volunteer force. In any case it is a choice that was made, not forced upon anyone. I would say that the process should be made just as easy as for the person serving, but again, not automatic and should be a choice made by the individuals and undertaken by them.

Well no ones talking about forcing citizenship on them.

That said, I don't see how giving the dependents citizenship is any different then if I came down for a civilian occupation, your allowed to bring your dependents right?

[Havok]

Of course you can, but you all get citizenship independently of each other and of your own accord, with the exception of any children that are born here.
The OP is effectively calling for forced citizenship though if you complete your active duty military obligation. Along with your family. Granted getting forced citizenship in America means about dick since there is nothing that we force our citizens to do (outside of obeying laws), but it should still be the individuals choice, because to me, that is America.

[Aaron]

I don't think that was Schatts intention, rather to have you qualify automatically.

[eion]

Of course you can, but you all get citizenship independently of each other and of your own accord, with the exception of any children that are born here.
The OP is effectively calling for forced citizenship though if you complete your active duty military obligation. Along with your family. Granted getting forced citizenship in America means about dick since there is nothing that we force our citizens to do (outside of obeying laws), but it should still be the individuals choice, because to me, that is America.

Well you are obligated to pay taxes on all your income regardless of where you earn it, so that might be a potential problem if in fact the citizenship were obligatory, but as Aaron said I don't think that was the OPs intention. Rather he was suggesting that we should make the process opt-out rather than an obsure opt-in practice as it currently is.

[Phantasee]

I don't know about giving dependents and spouses citizenship automatically, but giving them Permanent Resident status would be fair in my book. Making it a little easier to get citizenship after serving your term would be something I could get behind, as well. However, nothing should ever be automatic, when it comes to granting of citizenship.

My views apply to Canada, of course.

[Ritterin Sophia]

One question I have though is that from my understanding, US members sign on for eight years and can split that between Active and Reserve time in a variety of ways. Should a foreign member be required to do his entire contract as Active to gain his citizenship?

IIRC the Active Army offers four on four off contracts and eight year contracts. I would like to require the former rather than the latter.

I don't think that was Schatts intention, rather to have you qualify automatically.

Let me check real quick... yep: 'an initiative to make completion of your contract in the Armed Services qualify you for automatic citizenship'.

Honestly I don't get where 'forcing' someone to be a citizen came from, the suggestion was automatic qualification and if you said yes to the offer the time it would take is however long it takes to write up the papers and file them.

I would only add that I think being wounded in combat should qualify you for application for immediate citizenship as well (as it does in the French Foreign Legion).

Thank you, that's a good addendum.

As for creating a new class to supplement "natural born citizen", as far as I know, the only field of American endeavor denied to naturalized citizens is holding the office of President or Vice President. It would make far more sense in my book to allow naturalized citizens who have lived in this country at least X number of years to hold the office of President.

This should slowly remove any stigma associated with naturalized citizenship over time. To create another class of citizenship (“Battleborn Citizen” or whatever you call it) would seem to only stratify American culture even further and place undue weight on military service as a prerequisite for running for President.

That may be a drawback to you, but not a militarist like myself. That said I can't think of an easier way to ease the American people into allowing naturalized citizens into the office of President than when you point to a former 4-Star General born in southern Baghdad (most likely not as contrived but the idea is intriguing) as President when challenging them as to why a naturalized citizen should be denied the right to be President.

I actually think the concept of an American Foreign Legion is a concept worth exploring.

Well that's good.

As for Havs problem with the spouse riding the coat tails I was attempting to give the benefit of the doubt but permanent residence status would work equally well.

[Havok]

Of course you can, but you all get citizenship independently of each other and of your own accord, with the exception of any children that are born here.
The OP is effectively calling for forced citizenship though if you complete your active duty military obligation. Along with your family. Granted getting forced citizenship in America means about dick since there is nothing that we force our citizens to do (outside of obeying laws), but it should still be the individuals choice, because to me, that is America.

Well you are obligated to pay taxes on all your income regardless of where you earn it, so that might be a potential problem if in fact the citizenship were obligatory, but as Aaron said I don't think that was the OPs intention. Rather he was suggesting that we should make the process opt-out rather than an obsure opt-in practice as it currently is.

You pay tax on your income whether you are a citizen or not though IIRC. Unless you are being paid 'under the table'. Opt-out makes more sense, so maybe I just misread the OP. I don't like opt-in all that much more than automatic though as I still feel that the process should be undertaken, if expedited.