Zeon as a power in the Battletech Universe

[RhoOmicronMu]

You're mixing up the range of weapons with the effective range. The effective range of Btech weapons is short, unless you simply choose to throw out the huge bulk of Btech canon based simply on two quotes from FanPro.

If you don't like what FASA wrote trying to blame it on FanPro and Catalyst Games Labs (mostly the same people) makes you look like a whiny bitch. FanPro and Catalyst are in allmost all cases continuing things lade down by FASA. This is a good example. Your bitching about something that started in (being conservative hear) the FASA published Aerotech 2 (most likely the origonal 80s Aerotech 1).

If the effective range of Battletech weapons is so short explain why a fighter a few meters off the deck has much larger effective ranges than a mech does.

The effective ranges of mechs in the standard ground game are assuming the mech is dodging about inside of the hex (there are various bonuses for shooting at a mech that's actually standing still: fallen mechs and standing still). If a mech stands still and deliberately takes aim with a single arm, effective range is much higher.

Mechs aren't that bad. A variety super sized versions of regular sports are played in mechs for example.

Source?

The Noisiel Summer Games from Mercenaries Supplemental II. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say mechs are as agile as Mobile Suits.

? Mind rechecking my assumptions. You're talking about a 200km barrage, right?

I'm talking about what KE a NAC-35 round would have if it took 60s to reach 432km (24*18km). As expected it's well below a kiloton, because the actual velocity has to be many times the minimum to hit anything at that range. This lines up with the size of the craters produced from orbital bombardment and the nuke rules.

No, they can't. The whole Marshals and Sheriffs makde it clear that not every Periphery world has a mech. It been made clear that not every Outback world has a mech garrison, compensating for it with vehicles instead.

The Marshals defended newly settled worlds between the TC and MoC. Of course they're not going to have any mechs unless someone gives them some, they've just been colonized. Off the top of my head it was in Star Lord (how many books cover events in the Periphery) a single city in the Periphery had a beet up centuries old mech. Your reference to the outback, IIRC doesn't cover noble forces, corporate security, or privately owned mechs.

If necessary, we can simply point to the Clan invasion. Pointing to Tikonov is dumb when you're talking about a fortified border world vs Periphery outback.

The Clan invasion sources where bad about listing militia units. Modern sources give more detail and more data points to form an average. I pointed out Tikinov was a high end, but it was also 22 years before the current setting. There have even been IIRC era specific rules for generating a garrison force written since then.

Say what? A Star League division has 3 regiments, infantry has 1 mech, 2 infantry and etc. Counting supporting forces, that's 5 regiments, MAX. This is from SL sourcebook. May I know what is your source supporting such assumptions?

A quick once over gives many times that number. I'll see if I can get you a complete TO&E. IIRC, 3 Regiments is about the size of a Star League RCT.

The TH army IS subordinated under the SLDF, hence the whole division between Royal and normal units.

No argument here.

As for the incident you're referring to, I'm not familar with it. Mind elaborating with the source?

And then someone started poking around in the wastelands of an ex-Hegemony world and put a new twist on the accepted historical accounts. I’m not sure why this person zeroed in on that bunker, but if they were looking for a cache of the Star League Defense Force’s finest Royal regiment BattleMechs, they didn’t find them—they should’ve been looking for those in the glassy craters that dot the world’s surface, where the planetary militia made its last stand against the encroaching Houses. Wealthy Hegemony (or, more accurately, ex-Hegemony) planets had the finest gear, of course, and so a House military often had to resort to nuclear weapons when target planets were so unreasonable as to not join the House, or what’s worse, sided with another House. But the militia records in that bunker detailed the make and model of units fielded, along with info on units they were desperately buying from the surviving and rebuilt Hegemony military factories, and those machines were not so … limited … as those ComStar portrayed in Technical Readout: 2750.

[SAMAS]

As for accuracy, Gundam with their I fire my entire clip and hit nothing, our missiles move slower than shit, and anything beyond a few hundred meters is long range is hardly a paragon.

08th MS Team Episode 8: Terry with a beam rifle exchanges fire with a Magella Cannon-armed Zaku at ten kilometers.

Scene here Also keep in mind they were trying to take care not to hit the Zakus in their cockpits, as mega-particles tend to... "react" to nuclear reactors.

[RhoOmicronMu]

This is a rough Star League Mech Division. I may have missed something. I'll see if I can clean it up latter.

Provisionally, it looks like I overstated it a bit, though they're still gigantic.

I swiped used a post of thebigmac's to make this list.

Code: Select all

Command
     Command Mech Battalion 
     Dropship Battalion

Battlemech Brigade
      Battlemech Regiment 
      Battlemech Regiment
      Battlemech Regiment

Battlemech Brigade
     Battlemech Regiment
     Battlemech Regiment
     Battlemech Regiment

Mechanized Infantry Brigade
    Light Battlemech Battalion 
    Mechanized Infantry Regiment 
    Mechanized Infantry Regiment 
    Mechanized Infantry Regiment 

Armored Brigade (not present in all divisions)
     Anti-aircraft Armored Regiment 
     Heavy Armored Regiment 
     Heavy Armored Regiment 

Aerospace Brigade
     Aerospace Regiment 
     Air Transport Regiment
     VTOL Regiment 

Artillery Brigade
     Heavy Artillery Battalion 
     Artillery Battalion 
     Artillery Battalion 

Reconnaisance Battalion
     LAM Company 
     LAM Company 
     LAM Company
     Heavy Reconnaissance Company
     Reconnaissance Company

Combat Engineer Battalion
Signal Battalion
Support Battalion

08th MS Team Episode 8: Terry with a beam rifle exchanges fire with a Magella Cannon-armed Zaku at ten kilometers.

Scene here Also keep in mind they were trying to take care not to hit the Zakus in their cockpits, as mega-particles tend to... "react" to nuclear reactors.

The mobile suit is sitting down on a hill and has a spotter. The same shot would be doable with a mech using readily available weapons (AC-10 or less or a bog standard Medium or Large Laser).

[Stark]

Right, and tanks would be able to decapitate Zakus at 5 klicks ... if only there wasn't that whole jamming thing going on disrupting electronics.

Are you paying attention? The entire existence of Mobile Suits is contingent on the obvious counters being disrupted by interference, otherwise the Zeon invasion of Earth would have been a complete abortion. That's why four squads ambushing a single suit is extremely dangerous and something like 40 tanks taking on three suits is a suicide mission.

[Ritterin Sophia]

The Story Thus Far:

The MS can't hit things at long range.

Yeah because they're being jammed and despite being jammed they hit a target with vision almost entirely obscured.\

So they can't hit things at range, where Mechs can easily hit them.

Except Mechs would be jammed too.

But they can't hit things at range...

[Stark]

The best part is where you can handwave away Btech's accuracy problems, but the Gundam setting being built around a conceit to avoid all the very practical counters to Mobile Suits means... they suck? In the OYW period in particular its pretty clear to me that given time people would develop counters to MS, but the war ended and everyone embraced them due to versatility. Turns out when you're taken by surprise by an entirely new form of warfare you can struggle to deal with it?

I guess its how MS are easy targets because... they're only as/more agile than the most agile mechs. Obviously!

[RhoOmicronMu]

The Story Thus Far:

The MS can't hit things at long range.

Yeah because they're being jammed and despite being jammed they hit a target with vision almost entirely obscured.\

So they can't hit things at range, where Mechs can easily hit them.

Except Mechs would be jammed too.

But they can't hit things at range...

So far I've gotten that spotters always kick ass and it's better to do these things sitting down, but maybe that's because I'm all but ignoring certain posters and just arguing with PainRack. Oh, and that both sides can hit targets at range.

[Stark]

Uh oh he's ignoring people who are informed but disagree with him. Class act here.

Anyway, if this is OYW Zeon maybe the mechs would encourage Zeon to go Hidilfrs? The idea of a sportscar one-hit kill tank outside of minovsky interference is pretty funny.

[Sinanju]

Uh oh he's ignoring people who are informed but disagree with him. Class act here.

Anyway, if this is OYW Zeon maybe the mechs would encourage Zeon to go Hidilfrs? The idea of a sportscar one-hit kill tank outside of minovsky interference is pretty funny.

Speaking of the Hildolfr....

...
Maximum range: 32 kilometers
Effective range: less than 20 kilometers (visual range under Minovsky
conditions)

Gee, guess everyone pointing out the Minovsky effect on visuals is just full of shit huh? Oh wait....

[Norade]

Please provide proof that the area was under such jamming at the time in question. We don't see the visual light fogging nor hear any static in the communications as we would expect for heavy jamming. Not to mention that even a blurry IR image is better than being blinded by simple dust.

A few things:
A) No Gundam show, ever, has actually depicted the visual fogging attributed to Minovsky particles. Even when the jamming is in effect and blocking communications and such. So the presence or absence of fogging doesn't really tell you anything. This is probably because it would be a very boring show to watch if all the viewer got to see were a bunch of blurry shapes flying around the screen and maybe doing something to each other.
B) The Type 74 command truck has a communications system specifically designed to work even through heavy Minovsky jamming. So the fact that Eledore can still reach everyone isn't evidence of the presence/absence of jamming either.
C) Minovsky jamming on battlefields is the central conceit of the series. It's the reason mobile suits exist. Demanding evidence that it's being used during a fight in a Gundam series is kind of like demanding evidence that Star Wars ships are using ECM in any given space battle; how often is that mentioned, hm?

A) When we get shots showing us the view screens inside of a cockpit we would expect to see just this fog in any battle where it is present. Any battle where we don't see this would be one in which a visible spectrum laser would be useful. Something like a 100 kw laser made up of seven FIRESTRIKE modules would weight less than a loaded 120mm machine gun and a 15 kw version could fit into a helmet for use as a painting/blinding laser in any battle not so heavily saturated by M-particles.

B) The suits being able to send back a clear signal is evidence that it can't be that bad. This also shows that you can defeat such jamming likely with simple brute force high powered signals.

C) I was asking for evidence that the jamming was bad enough to effect IR signals. Nobody has yet shown any evidence that the battle shown here was saturated enough to prevent an IR system from working.

We judge visual mediums off what we see, not what we want to see. FAIL.

So, wait, are you seriously going to argue that mobile suits really did change size depending on the shot then? I dunno if I'd be so quick to pass out the 'fail' label, buddy.

How do we explain mechs changing size in universe then? Remember we analyze visual mediums as if they are what you would actually see.

that outside of a few pilots and machines Gundams suck

Actually the Gundams ARE extremely few, there's twenty RX-79[G], like seven of the RX-78 (RX-78-1 to -7), one FA-78-2 (the FA-78-1 was a modification for the RX-78-1/2/3 that never left the drawing board), the RAG-79-G1, and the three RX-79BD Units, and the NT-1 Alex (There's an NT-2 and NT-3 but the NT-1 so I'll include them in the higher end but the war was over by the time the NT-1 entered testing) for a total of like 33-35 Gundams (I may be forgetting a few) in the OYW...

Oh wait you're one those guys, the kind that refers to every MS as a Gundam... here's a quick hint. If it doesn't have a V-Fin and two eyes, it's probably not a Gundam.

No, that was a slip up. The 08th team is actually using the mass produced GM's. For some reason I had thought a posted above me had called them Gundam pilots and I used that without confirming. Conceded that the 08th team are not Gundam pilots.

Please provide proof that the area was under such jamming at the time in question. We don't see the visual light fogging nor hear any static in the communications as we would expect for heavy jamming. Not to mention that even a blurry IR image is better than being blinded by simple dust.

Excuse me? I have to prove that conditions which are the norm in EVERY SINGLE GUNDAM BATTLE EVER were present? Here's a clue: distortion of visible light is indicative of extremely high concentrations of Minovsky particles. It will screw up radar and whatever long before it gets around to screwing with your eyes.

Incidentally, I think it's hilarious that you said this, given that the clip you watched actually shows Sanders almost hit Norris when Norris was dropping through the interior of a building, meaning that Sanders couldn't possibly have seen him. And the only reason Sanders misses is because Norris dodged it by arresting his fall with his handy cable, the shot was otherwise accurate.

That same clip also shows that the rockets move slower than modern rockets do and that he can miss at sub 200m range as Noris dodges the rounds from a standing start. If the rockets used moved with the speed of a real weapon such dodges wouldn't be possible. You also ignore that Karen missed him while he was standing still and that Shiro emptied most of his clip in an aimless spray around Noris' suit. Not to mention that they all take turns firing, we never once see more than a single suit fire on him even when more than one unit has a shot and none of the Guntanks even consider moving and trying to hide.

We also have scenes where mobile suits mechs flying straight at other mobile suits are missed by bullets flying over one shoulder as the bullets appear to curve around the on coming mobile suit.

Not to mention that screwing with Radar and radio involves much different frequencies than fucking with even the sorts of IR needed for thermal imaging.

The 08th team must really suck ass, seeing as they have IR and their Gundam pilots aren't even trained well enough to use it in cases it would work,

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the OYW training did suck. By the end of the war, they were drafting (practically) children and just having them fall right into the cockpit.

That doesn't much effect things in the beginning, but it might be used as proof that mobile suit pilots lack the training of a battletech/mechwarrior pilot.

Visible interference is listed as part of M-jamming yet we never see it outside of large battles

Keep in mind that it would be very difficult to animate it well.

Being tough to animate is an excuse for us not seeing something in a visual medium now? We don't apply that standard to any other universe so why try applying out of universe issues here?

Thus you use an X-Ray laser for painting targets. Tighter wave lengths will be far less effected by Minovsky jamming so that ought to work for painting targets.

You say that like it is trivial. First off, where Minvosky particles don't affect so greatly, the atmosphere does. An xray laser would be completely useless on Earth, since it would be absorbed by the air in short order. Secondly, x-ray lasers aren't simple devices. They are big and complex - it is possible that minovsky particles make the emitter impossible to use too, if the tech even exists in gundam.

Besides, how do you paint targets when you don't even know where they are? You'd have to use short range scouts, which the enemy can just kill. Leads right back to the same thing.

Perhaps an X-ray laser might be a bit difficult to use effectively in atmosphere but that's no excuse not to use them as a targeting system in space.

Also, are you trying to say that Gundam has worse laser technology than modern Earth in spite of the fact that Gundam is set in our future? If anything they should have made significant advances in laser technology.

As for painting, yes that requires scouts, but such scouts could be smaller than a mobile suit and thus harder to kill. Something like a FIRESTRIKE solid state laser could be mounted on a standard off road vehicle and used to mark targets for longer ranger missile attacks.

We judge visual mediums off what we see, not what we want to see. FAIL.

suspension of disbelief doesn't mean you get to act like a pedantic arse.

Just write those scenes off as being those split second moments where a bad decision costs a pilot his life.

Mobile Suits are still hella sweet though.

Then we can assume by the frequency that such moments are common and that your average Zeon grunt won't make any attempt to evade incoming fire.

As for accuracy, Gundam with their I fire my entire clip and hit nothing, our missiles move slower than shit, and anything beyond a few hundred meters is long range is hardly a paragon.

08th MS Team Episode 8: Terry with a beam rifle exchanges fire with a Magella Cannon-armed Zaku at ten kilometers.

Scene here Also keep in mind they were trying to take care not to hit the Zakus in their cockpits, as mega-particles tend to... "react" to nuclear reactors.

So one example trumps all the times we see shit accuracy against stationary targets at far shorter ranges?

[Norade]

Uh oh he's ignoring people who are informed but disagree with him. Class act here.

Anyway, if this is OYW Zeon maybe the mechs would encourage Zeon to go Hidilfrs? The idea of a sportscar one-hit kill tank outside of minovsky interference is pretty funny.

Speaking of the Hildolfr....

...
Maximum range: 32 kilometers
Effective range: less than 20 kilometers (visual range under Minovsky
conditions)

Gee, guess everyone pointing out the Minovsky effect on visuals is just full of shit huh? Oh wait....

What is the source for that besides an unreliable at best website?

[Sinanju]

A) When we get shots showing us the view screens inside of a cockpit we would expect to see just this fog in any battle where it is present. Any battle where we don't see this would be one in which a visible spectrum laser would be useful. Something like a 100 kw laser made up of seven FIRESTRIKE modules would weight less than a loaded 120mm machine gun and a 15 kw version could fit into a helmet for use as a painting/blinding laser in any battle not so heavily saturated by M-particles.

B) The suits being able to send back a clear signal is evidence that it can't be that bad. This also shows that you can defeat such jamming likely with simple brute force high powered signals.

C) I was asking for evidence that the jamming was bad enough to effect IR signals. Nobody has yet shown any evidence that the battle shown here was saturated enough to prevent an IR system from working.

Sigh.

What is it with you, anyway? We know that the area was being jammed, we know what the jamming does, so why on Earth do you have to have somebody holding your hand to get to the conclusion that the jamming was messing with their sensors?

I'm trying to picture how a Gundam series would be animated for somebody like you. They'd probably have a giant flashing 'MINOVSKY EFFECT ON' sign appear on screen or something. Are you really that dense?

Wait, hold that thought....

So, wait, are you seriously going to argue that mobile suits really did change size depending on the shot then? I dunno if I'd be so quick to pass out the 'fail' label, buddy.

How do we explain mechs changing size in universe then? Remember we analyze visual mediums as if they are what you would actually see.

You know, when I read that post again I almost thought 'wow, I was being kind of mean, maybe I shouldn't have said that because nobody is actually that stupid.' But apparently, you are. Jesus Christ.

So one example trumps all the times we see shit accuracy against stationary targets at far shorter ranges?

I like how you've spent almost an entire page bitching about one example, then when somebody else provides one example you act like you've got reams of evidence on your side compared to them.

[Sinanju]

What is the source for that besides an unreliable at best website?

Jesus titty-fucking Christ, you are really determined with this whole 'trying to disprove the Minovsky effect in Gundam' thing aren't you? Are you really going to start arguing with the official profiles now? Or didn't you know where these things come from?

[Stark]

Did anyone say visual effects are noted in every case of interference? Of course not; indeed, people have repeatedly stated visual interference is only present in large-scale engagements. So since other interference effects are obvious in other far smaller engagements... I've got to ask if people aren't listening.

[Ritterin Sophia]

No, that was a slip up. The 08th team is actually using the mass produced GM's. For some reason I had thought a posted above me had called them Gundam pilots and I used that without confirming. Conceded that the 08th team are not Gundam pilots.

I think you missed the points I was trying to get across.

First was my annoyance with you referring to every mobile suit as a 'Gundam'. Despite two six page threads where everyone is referring to Zaku and Zaku IIs and Mobile Suits in general. This would be like me calling every 'Mech a Mad Cat, despite reading through the thread and seeing different names for machines and the term 'MEch' applied generally.

Two was that calling something a Gundam does not magically make it special, outside of a psychological effect due to the exploits of Amuro Ray. The 08th MS Team is perfect for this because they do use Gundams, specifically the RX-79[G] Gundam Ground Type. The problem? The RX-79[G] is literally made from spare parts of the RX-78 Project and shares an 80% parts commonality to the RGM-79[G]. The only differences are cosmetic, a couple more thrusters, a chest weapons package, and a different reactor.

The fact that the RX-79[G] is made of spare parts means there are none for it left, this results in some rather obvious outcomes. First is that after the head of Karen Joshua's RX-79[G] is taken off from the punch of an Acguy they replace it with a head from an RGM-79[G], next is that Shiro's is almost totally wrecked resulting in a complete overhaul of his RX-79[G] into the RX-79[G]Ez-8. Leaving Sanders' MS the only one left in original spec. For demonstrative purpose:
RX-79[G] with minor combat scarring.
The RX-79[G] GM Head Action Figure (Yes, the mismatched color is intentional)
Gundam Ez-8

[Norade]

Sigh.

What is it with you, anyway? We know that the area was being jammed, we know what the jamming does, so why on Earth do you have to have somebody holding your hand to get to the conclusion that the jamming was messing with their sensors?

I'm trying to picture how a Gundam series would be animated for somebody like you. They'd probably have a giant flashing 'MINOVSKY EFFECT ON' sign appear on screen or something. Are you really that dense?

Wait, hold that thought....

Fuck off, I'm not disputing that the area was jammed. I am disputing that it was bad enough to excuse Karen not switching to an IR visual mode to see through dust and that it was bad enough to account for the shit accuracy we see.

You know, when I read that post again I almost thought 'wow, I was being kind of mean, maybe I shouldn't have said that because nobody is actually that stupid.' But apparently, you are. Jesus Christ.

We hold most universes to higher standards than that, yet Gundam gets a pass due to the medium. I don't think so. I'm holding it to the same standards we hold Star Wars to.

I like how you've spent almost an entire page bitching about one example, then when somebody else provides one example you act like you've got reams of evidence on your side compared to them.

Except that single scene has multiple examples of shitty ability by the pilots of the team in question.

What is the source for that besides an unreliable at best website?

Jesus titty-fucking Christ, you are really determined with this whole 'trying to disprove the Minovsky effect in Gundam' thing aren't you? Are you really going to start arguing with the official profiles now? Or didn't you know where these things come from?

When the fuck have I ever argued that there is no Minovsky effect in Gundam? I asked for a source that isn't a fan updated website that is known to have numbers that are disproved by watching the show. If they're based on the official profiles then those are also wrong based on evidence presented in the anime.

Did anyone say visual effects are noted in every case of interference? Of course not; indeed, people have repeatedly stated visual interference is only present in large-scale engagements. So since other interference effects are obvious in other far smaller engagements... I've got to ask if people aren't listening.

If visual effects aren't present then laser designators should be usable even if doing so may require some what more powerful lasers to compensate for a greater rate of scattering. IR should also be usable even after the point that radio communication stops as IR uses far shorter waves than radar and radio communications.

No, that was a slip up. The 08th team is actually using the mass produced GM's. For some reason I had thought a posted above me had called them Gundam pilots and I used that without confirming. Conceded that the 08th team are not Gundam pilots.

I think you missed the points I was trying to get across.

First was my annoyance with you referring to every mobile suit as a 'Gundam'. Despite two six page threads where everyone is referring to Zaku and Zaku IIs and Mobile Suits in general. This would be like me calling every 'Mech a Mad Cat, despite reading through the thread and seeing different names for machines and the term 'MEch' applied generally.

Two was that calling something a Gundam does not magically make it special, outside of a psychological effect due to the exploits of Amuro Ray. The 08th MS Team is perfect for this because they do use Gundams, specifically the RX-79[G] Gundam Ground Type. The problem? The RX-79[G] is literally made from spare parts of the RX-78 Project and shares an 80% parts commonality to the RGM-79[G]. The only differences are cosmetic, a couple more thrusters, a chest weapons package, and a different reactor.

The fact that the RX-79[G] is made of spare parts means there are none for it left, this results in some rather obvious outcomes. First is that after the head of Karen Joshua's RX-79[G] is taken off from the punch of an Acguy they replace it with a head from an RGM-79[G], next is that Shiro's is almost totally wrecked resulting in a complete overhaul of his RX-79[G] into the RX-79[G]Ez-8. Leaving Sanders' MS the only one left in original spec. For demonstrative purpose:
RX-79[G] with minor combat scarring.
The RX-79[G] GM Head Action Figure (Yes, the mismatched color is intentional)
Gundam Ez-8

Then why did you complain when I said that the 08th team were Gundam pilots? They are piloting a Gundam type mobile suit, yes the more general term mobile suit pilot would also apply but so would the more specialized term noting that they pilot a limited production type of suit. The suit being a limited production design is telling because you don't give common grunts uncommon weapons, you tend to give specialists those weapons.

[Zinegata]

Ergh, guys, point of order regarding in-cockpit visuals:

Every Gundam technical manual stresses that the images seen inside a Mobile Suit's cockpit have been heavily enhanced/digitzed. Therefore you shouldn't be seeing any fog or interference if you're looking at stuff from within the cockpit.

This is also why inflatable dummies can be used against Mobile Suits (See Char's Counter-attack) - the computer can't tell the difference and displays them as actual threatening machines.

[Ford Prefect]

The suit being a limited production design is telling because you don't give common grunts uncommon weapons, you tend to give specialists those weapons.

Except that no one in the Kojima Battalion is anything other than a grunt, or somewhat above average. They might even be aces on paper, because it's only five confirmed kills over your entire career, but the Cyclops Team actually mocks that in War in the Pocket. That's the entire crux of the battle with Norris Packard, because the team actually encounters someone worthy of being called an 'ace' and they're totally outmatched - so much so that they're terrified. The 08th aren't particularly notable pilots, and apart from being Gundams, the RX-79[G]s aren't particularly notable mobile suits. There are GM variants which leave them in the dust.

[Zinegata]

Then why did you complain when I said that the 08th team were Gundam pilots? They are piloting a Gundam type mobile suit, yes the more general term mobile suit pilot would also apply but so would the more specialized term noting that they pilot a limited production type of suit. The suit being a limited production design is telling because you don't give common grunts uncommon weapons, you tend to give specialists those weapons.

Except the Gundam itself was piloted by a complete novice with zero basic training. In fact, he was operating the machine while reading the manual on his lap .

Both sides, of course, built specialized Mobile Suits for their ace pilots. Zeon had the Zaku High-Maneuverability, Gelgoog B, and a bunch of others. The Federation had the GM Custom and Light Armor.

However, in the case of the 08th MS Team it can't really be said that these are elite (or even veteran) pilots. Only Sanders had MS combat experience prior to joining the 08th. Karen and Shiro were both novices.

Moreover, the RX-79[G] and the RGM-79[G]s have a HUGE disadvantage compared to the stock GM: Their computer software systems weren't up to snuff.

The GM and Gundam Ground Types were both built prior to the recovery of combat data from the Gundam. It is explicitly stated that this combat data was used to develop a much better OS for the mass-production GM series - making them much easier to pilot and automating a lot of tasks.

In fact, it's worth noting that even though the Kojima Battalion has so many Luna-Titanium MS, it gets its ass kicked. A lot. The first Earthside episode features at least one Gundam Ground type (from 06th MS Team) burning in the background after facing a Zaku with a 120mm MG. In that episode, Shiro himself had difficulty aiming and shooting at the said Zaku even as it advanced slowly through the foilage.

It's worth noting that in the original series, Amuro also initially had aiming and lock-on problems. But by the end of the series, he could just point and click to blast away a Zaku (to the point that the Gundam couldn't even keep up with his reflexes anymore - requiring the magnet coat upgrade).

It's actually highly likely that the 08th never got the advantage of this advanced computer systems and combat data. Their final battles came just as the first GMs (with the improved OS) were coming out.

[Norade]

Ergh, guys, point of order regarding in-cockpit visuals:

Every Gundam technical manual stresses that the images seen inside a Mobile Suit's cockpit have been heavily enhanced/digitzed. Therefore you shouldn't be seeing any fog or interference if you're looking at stuff from within the cockpit.

This is also why inflatable dummies can be used against Mobile Suits (See Char's Counter-attack) - the computer can't tell the difference and displays them as actual threatening machines.

Then the out of cockpit visuals must be used and they show that there is almost never any visual fog.

Other than that, I never knew how much the cockpit's enhanced the visuals.

The suit being a limited production design is telling because you don't give common grunts uncommon weapons, you tend to give specialists those weapons.

Except that no one in the Kojima Battalion is anything other than a grunt, or somewhat above average. They might even be aces on paper, because it's only five confirmed kills over your entire career, but the Cyclops Team actually mocks that in War in the Pocket. That's the entire crux of the battle with Norris Packard, because the team actually encounters someone worthy of being called an 'ace' and they're totally outmatched - so much so that they're terrified. The 08th aren't particularly notable pilots, and apart from being Gundams, the RX-79[G]s aren't particularly notable mobile suits. There are GM variants which leave them in the dust.

That may be true, but generally a soldier with kills to their credit doesn't miss a direct shot at a stationary enemy at what's at most medium range. At that point fear didn't enter the picture as they only realized how good he was after he dropped through the building and killed the Guntank.

[Zinegata]

In the OYW period in particular its pretty clear to me that given time people would develop counters to MS, but the war ended and everyone embraced them due to versatility. Turns out when you're taken by surprise by an entirely new form of warfare you can struggle to deal with it?

Mobile Suits up to the Gouf were awful for ground combat, and they were actually crushed by huge numbers of tanks and conventional airplanes.

The Dom is an entirely different matter however. With a speed of 240 Kph, the thing is fast enough to evade even mass tank fire. And pretty much every Mobile Suit (and certainly all of them by 0087) had at least some kind of hover-maneuver capability when fighting on the ground. Even the lowly Hizack (from Zeta) for instance, has been seen hovering and maneuvering at low level.

Early war MS could still be beaten by conventional weapons. But the late-war stuff were of an entirely different league entirely.

[Norade]

Then why did you complain when I said that the 08th team were Gundam pilots? They are piloting a Gundam type mobile suit, yes the more general term mobile suit pilot would also apply but so would the more specialized term noting that they pilot a limited production type of suit. The suit being a limited production design is telling because you don't give common grunts uncommon weapons, you tend to give specialists those weapons.

Except the Gundam itself was piloted by a complete novice with zero basic training. In fact, he was operating the machine while reading the manual on his lap .

Both sides, of course, built specialized Mobile Suits for their ace pilots. Zeon had the Zaku High-Maneuverability, Gelgoog B, and a bunch of others. The Federation had the GM Custom and Light Armor.

However, in the case of the 08th MS Team it can't really be said that these are elite (or even veteran) pilots. Only Sanders had MS combat experience prior to joining the 08th. Karen and Shiro were both novices.

Moreover, the RX-79[G] and the RGM-79[G]s have a HUGE disadvantage compared to the stock GM: Their computer software systems weren't up to snuff.

The GM and Gundam Ground Types were both built prior to the recovery of combat data from the Gundam. It is explicitly stated that this combat data was used to develop a much better OS for the mass-production GM series - making them much easier to pilot and automating a lot of tasks.

In fact, it's worth noting that even though the Kojima Battalion has so many Luna-Titanium MS, it gets its ass kicked. A lot. The first Earthside episode features at least one Gundam Ground type (from 06th MS Team) burning in the background after facing a Zaku with a 120mm MG. In that episode, Shiro himself had difficulty aiming and shooting at the said Zaku even as it advanced slowly through the foilage.

It's worth noting that in the original series, Amuro also initially had aiming and lock-on problems. But by the end of the series, he could just point and click to blast away a Zaku (to the point that the Gundam couldn't even keep up with his reflexes anymore - requiring the magnet coat upgrade).

It's actually highly likely that the 08th never got the advantage of this advanced computer systems and combat data. Their final battles came just as the first GMs (with the improved OS) were coming out.

Amuro wasn't exactly a normal kid, but it's true that with luck and his own skills he did manage to score a kill while piloting the Gundam for the first time. After that he pilots it because his skills and the way he modified the OS means that nobody else can use it. He's an exception to the rule and an amazing pilot even if he does sue his head mounted CIWS turrets too often. xD

By the time of the battle with Noris every pilot in the team had combat experience and were familiar with their suits and that shot should have been a fairly easy one to line up even under heavy M-effect as the range was so short. We also see in many Gundam series that grunt suits often stand around practically asking to be shot and/or they fire wildly and can't hit an enemy moving straight at them.

[Zinegata]

Amuro wasn't exactly a normal kid, but it's true that with luck and his own skills he did manage to score a kill while piloting the Gundam for the first time. After that he pilots it because his skills and the way he modified the OS means that nobody else can use it. He's an exception to the rule and an amazing pilot even if he does sue his head mounted CIWS turrets too often. xD

Um, no. The Gundam's OS is a unique learning computer meant to collect data, which is then distributed to other mass-production types. It's not a sort of OS that he alone can operate. In fact, other members of the WB crew had also pilotted the Gundam, athough usually did pretty poorly because they had even less training than Amuro.

By the time of the battle with Noris every pilot in the team had combat experience and were familiar with their suits and that shot should have been a fairly easy one to line up even under heavy M-effect as the range was so short. We also see in many Gundam series that grunt suits often stand around practically asking to be shot and/or they fire wildly and can't hit an enemy moving straight at them.

There's a difference between combat experience, and the effect of improved software. Think of it this way. Before OSs required you to input a specific command. Input the wrong command in the wrong syntax, and the OS doesn't do jack shit.

It may have been little different with the Gundam Ground Type. If you don't follow a specific targeting sequence, the OS fails to lock on to an opposing Mobile Suit. The Gundam, with its learning computer, would have probably recognized the mistakes in this sequence and simplified it so that all the pilot has to do is point and click.

[Norade]

Amuro wasn't exactly a normal kid, but it's true that with luck and his own skills he did manage to score a kill while piloting the Gundam for the first time. After that he pilots it because his skills and the way he modified the OS means that nobody else can use it. He's an exception to the rule and an amazing pilot even if he does sue his head mounted CIWS turrets too often. xD

Um, no. The Gundam's OS is a unique learning computer meant to collect data, which is then distributed to other mass-production types. It's not a sort of OS that he alone can operate. In fact, other members of the WB crew had also pilotted the Gundam, athough usually did pretty poorly because they had even less training than Amuro.

I must be more tired than I thought, I'm confusing Kira with Amuro...

By the time of the battle with Noris every pilot in the team had combat experience and were familiar with their suits and that shot should have been a fairly easy one to line up even under heavy M-effect as the range was so short. We also see in many Gundam series that grunt suits often stand around practically asking to be shot and/or they fire wildly and can't hit an enemy moving straight at them.

There's a difference between combat experience, and the effect of improved software. Think of it this way. Before OSs required you to input a specific command. Input the wrong command in the wrong syntax, and the OS doesn't do jack shit.

It may have been little different with the Gundam Ground Type. If you don't follow a specific targeting sequence, the OS fails to lock on to an opposing Mobile Suit. The Gundam, with its learning computer, would have probably recognized the mistakes in this sequence and simplified it so that all the pilot has to do is point and click.

Sounds like MS pilots were handed a steaming pile by a military that boarders on criminally incompetent. I can't think of a real military system that makes it that hard to do something as simple as lock on and fire at a target.

[Zinegata]

I must be more tired than I thought, I'm confusing Kira with Amuro...

It's a much more major plot point in SEED, yes. But it's also stupider in SEED because only one person can apparently understand the damn OS .

Sounds like MS pilots were handed a steaming pile by a military that boarders on criminally incompetent. I can't think of a real military system that makes it that hard to do something as simple as lock on and fire at a target.

Zeon's first "combat-ready" Mobile Suits were rolled out in UC 0075. They had four years to collect test data and iron out the kinks in their system - including large-scale maneuvers.

The Federation, by this point, had 9 months worth of data mainly collected from captured Zeon Mobile Suits. And this didn't seem to be enough to make a combat-worthy unit - since the Federation never started producing their own Zakus based on captured examples. To top it all off - the RX-79[G]s were by all accounts built out of desperation rather than as part of an overall plan - "Let's just use the spare parts, cobble them together into a working MS, and pray they kick ass!"

In comparison, the real-world F-22 spent around a decade to go from drawing board to non-combat ready prototype - and a large portion of the development work focused around designing the electronics that would automatically handle the plane. So I wouldn't be surprised if the RX-79[G]s's electronics were total shit.

In fact, the very same problem would afflict the Gelgoog at A Bao A Qu - although ace pilots could handle them very well (no surprise since they were also handling the Zaku II R High-Maneuverability types before - which was deemed too expensive and too hard to handle for regulars anyway), novices mishandled them and died in droves. The Gelgoog's time from conceptualization to production? A mere three months.