Religious relativity...

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-21 10:06am

Darth Wong wrote:If you murder my son and you repent, and you truly understand that what you did was wrong, then you will fucking understand when I take a goddamned circular saw and cut you in half from the crotch up.

No apology or repentance can make up for something like that, and it is a ridiculous Christian brainbug to believe that if someone repents, this somehow absolves him of responsibility for the crime, so that he does not have to face punishment.

Isn't this why Catholics invented Purgatory? If you lived an immoral life, but you repented before you died, God does forgive you, but he doesn't just let you off without any punishment. Purgatory was an invention that allowed God to justly punish the forgiven, while Hell was reserved for the unrepentant.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 10:14am

Death from the Sea wrote:The Egypt and Phonecia example are just examples of how a good thing can be twisted and perverted into a bad thing. But it is not the reason religion was created.

No, religion was obviously created to explain things to children even though the adults had no idea themselves. The resulting myths became dogma, and ended up generating a support structure of priests, wise men, shamans, etc. Inevitably, this support structure begins to alter the myths for its own benefit, so that an integral part of the myth becomes the need to worship, use the special services of the wise men/shamans/priests, and in most cases, donate money.

Just because you see those idiots on TV saying things similar to those comments does not mean all or most of every sermon is the same.
NO Free will? yes, there is free will, otherwise how could someone CHOOSE to not believe, or CHOOSE to believe. God might have a plan, but I don't believe it has predetermined everything for anyone.

And why should one's decision to believe be weighed into a decision to inflict eternal torture on that person, unless God is an unbelievably cruel asshole?

Parents love their children but still punish them, just like God loves his children and punishes them. The reason we do punish is because in the end it is good for you, makes you a better person by learning from your mistakes.

If God is a father, he's an abusive father. His punishments are extreme, usually involving death in the Old Testament and eternal Hellfire in the New Testament. Moreover, he does NOT punish with the intent of inducing better behaviour or self-improvement; if he did, then he would act in this life rather than waiting until after you die and then punishing you (for victimless crimes, no less) without giving you a chance to change your ways. Hell, he doesn't even give anyone proof that he exists at all; the age of miracles mysteriously ended with the rise of science. So he allows horrible acts of cruelty to go completely unpunished, and then later ignores those acts of cruelty if the perpetrators pledges fealty to him; how does this equate to a good parent?

Love is taught as in Love conquers all, not hate, or fear.

Too bad the Biblical God has no concept of love. All he knows is hate and fear.

The difference is that God and hobbits are two different concepts.

Yes. Hobbits are noble and short creatures from the LOTR trilogy.

God being a much more difficult one to understand, and unless you have taken the time to study the bible or take worship classes, I don't see how you can actually understand since you don't believe.

I've read the Bible, and "worship classes" only tell you how to interpret it rather than thinking for yourself.

No need to reply to this cause I won't anymore cause it seems this is going to escalate out of control resulting in a board ban, probably of me since I am a christian "preaching".

Nice strawman, asshole. People are only banned if they become trolls. Falcon is the biggest fundie idiot on the board and he hasn't been banned. Jegs2 is a devout Christian and I actually think he's a really good guy, even if we disagree on this subject. But hey, it's probably easier for you to rationalize your own stupidity if you refuse to subject it to debate and then tell yourself that others are just as intolerant of opposing viewpoints as the God you worship, isn't it?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 10:17am

Ted C wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:If you murder my son and you repent, and you truly understand that what you did was wrong, then you will fucking understand when I take a goddamned circular saw and cut you in half from the crotch up.

No apology or repentance can make up for something like that, and it is a ridiculous Christian brainbug to believe that if someone repents, this somehow absolves him of responsibility for the crime, so that he does not have to face punishment.
Isn't this why Catholics invented Purgatory? If you lived an immoral life, but you repented before you died, God does forgive you, but he doesn't just let you off without any punishment. Purgatory was an invention that allowed God to justly punish the forgiven, while Hell was reserved for the unrepentant.

And what right does God have to forgive you on behalf of the victim?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-21 10:25am

Darth Wong wrote: And what right does God have to forgive you on behalf of the victim?

Is the victim required to forgive the criminal? I believe that the old "eye for an eye" treatment is prescribed in the Old Testament for punishing the temporal crime. Presumably God's treatment of the offender following his/her death is a separate matter.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 10:30am

Ted C wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:And what right does God have to forgive you on behalf of the victim?
Is the victim required to forgive the criminal?

Should anyone but the victim have the right to forgive the perp?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-21 10:35am

Darth Wong wrote: Should anyone but the victim have the right to forgive the perp?

For personal grievances, no.

But the criminal has presumably also committed a crime against God (since he committed murder without God's personal okey-dokey), and God can decide whether or not to forgive that crime.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 10:44am

Ted C wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Should anyone but the victim have the right to forgive the perp?
For personal grievances, no.

But the criminal has presumably also committed a crime against God (since he committed murder without God's personal okey-dokey), and God can decide whether or not to forgive that crime.

In other words, God doesn't give a shit about the victims of crime or their grievances, and only cares about himself.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-21 10:59am

Darth Wong wrote: In other words, God doesn't give a shit about the victims of crime or their grievances, and only cares about himself.

The Old Testament does set a standard for punishing the crime ("an Eye for and Eye, etc."), so there's a basis for believing that God does care about it. The victim is also presumed to be comforted in Heaven, for whatever that's worth.

Hell is the ultimate punishment for unrepentant sinners, and failure to worship God is the ultimate offense to God, so it makes a certain amount of sense that he sends those who refuse to believe in him to hell. It's obviously a "might makes right" type of situation, but God presumably has the might to enforce it.

A repentant murderer (or other criminal) does not rate God's ultimate punishment, but does that mean that the criminal gets no punishment? I suppose it's an appeal to ignorance, but a Christian with a functioning brain would have to assume that God inflicts some kind of penalty on those who spent most of their lives as criminals. Hence, the Catholics invented Purgatory.

Purgatory is entirely a church invention, of course; the Bible says nothing about it whatsoever, and other denominations seem to consider the idea somewhat blasphemous. The way I see it, the Catholics were at least trying to give God credit for not being a complete monster, which is better than Fundies do.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-21 12:04pm

[quote="Death from the Sea]The Egypt and Phonecia example are just examples of how a good thing can be twisted and perverted into a bad thing. But it is not the reason religion was created. [/quote]

Actually no. Religion started out as a way to make the elite have prags. Gods say it's time to harvest. The Gods say it's time to bring all the food to our temple. The Gods say you better take up the ass. And so on.

It never started out as a good thing, except for maybe the elite getting the anal.

Just because you see those idiots on TV saying things similar to those comments does not mean all or most of every sermon is the same.

Funny how the unbelievers and bad people in the Bible got their asses fried.

NO Free will? yes, there is free will, otherwise how could someone CHOOSE to not believe, or CHOOSE to believe. God might have a plan, but I don't believe it has predetermined everything for anyone.
Parents love their children but still punish them, just like God loves his children and punishes them. The reason we do punish is because in the end it is good for you, makes you a better person by learning from your mistakes.

Bullshit. Punishments and rewards are a way of exerting influence on our decision making. That means it isn't free will. Especially since God supposedly knows exactly what we would do. It is predetermination if God is all-powerful.

Love is taught as in Love conquers all, not hate, or fear.

Yes, because we can kick your ass. Let's see who got killed in the Bible, the Christians or the unbelievers, and who did the killing.

The difference is that God and hobbits are two different concepts.

Yes, hobbits are actually not pricks.

God being a much more difficult one to understand, and unless you have taken the time to study the bible or take worship classes, I don't see how you can actually understand since you don't believe.

No, I have studied the Bible. I have come to the conclusion by actually using my brain that not only is it false, but that the Biblical God would also be the largest douchebag in the world.

No need to reply to this cause I won't anymore cause it seems this is going to escalate out of control resulting in a board ban, probably of me since I am a christian "preaching".

Don't come to the party if you don't want me to dance.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-21 12:11pm

Ted C wrote:
neoolong wrote: In other words, you don't have to feel sorry for any of your previous actions. Just accept Jesus into your heart afterwards. After all it is your faith that gets you into heaven, not your actions.
Presumably you will "feel sorry" for your past actions if you've truly repented.

Yes, presumbably. But no specification on you having to.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-21 12:16pm

neoolong wrote:
Ted C wrote: Presumably you will "feel sorry" for your past actions if you've truly repented.
Yes, presumbably. But no specification on you having to.

Exactly how will you not experience remorse for your past actions if you have truly repented of the mentality that caused you to commit them?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-21 01:33pm

Ted C wrote:The Old Testament does set a standard for punishing the crime ("an Eye for and Eye, etc."), so there's a basis for believing that God does care about it. The victim is also presumed to be comforted in Heaven, for whatever that's worth.

Actually, the Old Testament's punishment for most offenses is 'death' even for things like picking up sticks on the sabbath, swearing at your parents or even using God's name in vain. Thats hardly what most intelligent people would call "justice"

Hell is the ultimate punishment for unrepentant sinners,

Or anyone who doesn't believe in God.

failure to worship God is the ultimate offense to God, so it makes a certain amount of sense that he sends those who refuse to believe in him to hell.

If God is omnipotent, why would he care about our worship? It does nothing for him, and it makes zero sense for him to punish a non-believer for eternity.

It's obviously a "might makes right" type of situation, but God presumably has the might to enforce it.

"Might makes right" is never a just policy to follow. Especially for a God who claims to love us. Its the policy of playground bullies and thugs. They don't love anyone.

A repentant murderer (or other criminal) does not rate God's ultimate punishment, but does that mean that the criminal gets no punishment? I suppose it's an appeal to ignorance, but a Christian with a functioning brain would have to assume that God inflicts some kind of penalty from those who spent most of their lives as criminals. Hence, the Catholics invented Purgatory.

Purgatory is entirely a church invention, of course; the Bible says nothing about it whatsoever, and other denominations seem to consider the idea somewhat blasphemous. The way I see it, the Catholics were at least trying to give God credit for not being a complete monster, which is better than Fundies do.

Most protestants beileve in only heaven and hell. There is no possible middle ground in most denominations.

Actually, the bible does teach in several places that all will be judged according to their actions.
Romans 2:6, Revelation 2:23, Revelation 20:12-13
Since no two people have exactly the same level of morality, doesn't that show that everyone will get a different reward/punishment in the afterlife? Or do you think that a person who tells only one lie in his life time and doesn't repent deserves the same punishment as Hitler?[/quote]

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-21 01:58pm

Darth Servo wrote: Actually, the Old Testament's punishment for most offenses is 'death' even for things like picking up sticks on the sabbath, swearing at your parents or even using God's name in vain. Thats hardly what most intelligent people would call "justice"

I never said it was. Of course, most of those death-penalty offenses were theoretically offenses against God (since sin is, by definition, an offense to God), not temporal crimes.

Darth Servo wrote:
Ted C wrote:Hell is the ultimate punishment for unrepentant sinners,
Or anyone who doesn't believe in God.

As I noted, not believing in God seems to be the worst thing you can do, in his opinion.

Darth Servo wrote: If God is omnipotent, why would he care about our worship? It does nothing for him, and it makes zero sense for him to punish a non-believer for eternity.

I have no idea why he would care, but the Bible certainly indicates that he does expect worship. Maybe he thinks people who don't worship him are being rudely ungrateful. I don't believe in this nonsense, I'm just analyzing God's behavior based on Biblical testimony. I'm "suspending disbelief", if you will...

Darth Servo wrote: "Might makes right" is never a just policy to follow. Especially for a God who claims to love us. Its the policy of playground bullies and thugs. They don't love anyone.

Of course it isn't just, but that still seems to be way God sees it.

Darth Servo wrote:
A repentant murderer (or other criminal) does not rate God's ultimate punishment, but does that mean that the criminal gets no punishment? I suppose it's an appeal to ignorance, but a Christian with a functioning brain would have to assume that God inflicts some kind of penalty from those who spent most of their lives as criminals. Hence, the Catholics invented Purgatory.
Most protestants beileve in only heaven and hell. There is no possible middle ground in most denominations.

I believe I said that.

Darth Servo wrote: Actually, the bible does teach in several places that all will be judged according to their actions.
Romans 2:6, Revelation 2:23, Revelation 20:12-13
Since no two people have exactly the same level of morality, doesn't that show that everyone will get a different reward/punishment in the afterlife? Or do you think that a person who tells only one lie in his life time and doesn't repent deserves the same punishment as Hitler?

That's exactly the question that prompted Catholic philosophers to invent Purgatory. They couldn't reconcile their belief in a just God with the instantaneous forgiveness of all sins with no penalty for Earthly transgressions, so they assumed that God must have a place for people to "pay" for the sins they committed before they moved on to Heaven.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-21 03:05pm

Ted C wrote:
neoolong wrote:
Ted C wrote: Presumably you will "feel sorry" for your past actions if you've truly repented.
Yes, presumbably. But no specification on you having to.
Exactly how will you not experience remorse for your past actions if you have truly repented of the mentality that caused you to commit them?

I'm sorry that I did not have Jesus with me to do a better job of it. I won't do it again, unless Jesus is with me on it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 03:15pm

Who cares if someone repents? It's quite clear that the only "crime" God needs your repentance for is not believing in him. If he thought murder was a serious crime in itself, he wouldn't have committed it so frequently himself.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-21 03:45pm

Darth Wong wrote:Who cares if someone repents? It's quite clear that the only "crime" God needs your repentance for is not believing in him. If he thought murder was a serious crime in itself, he wouldn't have committed it so frequently himself.

There's unquestionably a double standard at work. "Thou shalt not commit murder, steal, lie, etc."... unless God tells you to. You should be punished if you do any of these things without God's special permission.

Quite frankly, you're right. God probably doesn't give a flying F*&# about the suffering of the victim. He only cares about the disobedience. The closest he ever came to really caring was when he was supposedly moved by the prayers of the Hebrews suffering in Egypt (eventually... after listening to several generations of their complaints without doing anything). Of course, you could easily argue that he got them into that mess in the first place.

DISCLAIMER: Archaeological evidence does not support the assertion that the Hebrews were ever really a slave class in Egypt; the Egyptian monuments were evidently built by Egyptians.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-21 04:29pm

Death from the Sea wrote:You obviously don't understand, because the whole point of "religion" is not to avoid hell.

Then what is the point? According to the Bible, I could be a really nice guy and still go to Hell because I don't believe in God. Whatever the point of Christianity is, it's certainly not to encourage doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do.

I have never had the shit scared out of me when I go to church, and don't know anyone who has.

Then start a list with my name on it. I went to Catholic school for eight years, and all they did was tell me that sex, abortion, not going to church and the like were all mortal sins that would send you to Hell.

The Christian religion is based on God's authority. If you don't obey God, you'll go to Hell, so you must do everything God says.

God does not force anyone to do anything, he gave everyone free will so that they can make their own choices right or wrong.I am not a christian because I fear God, I have never understood the term "God fearing christian" because God loves everyone and hates no one.

No, according to the Bible, God hates me. Flip through the Old Testament sometime and see how many times God is visiting his wrath -- er, love, down on people who didn't mindlessly obey his demands.

What christianity does appeal to is LOVE, not fear, as do many other religions.

How does Christianity appeal to love? It pays lip service to the notion that God loves you, that is all. Sure, people may say, "Well you should be a good person because God loves everyone," but the little disclaimer that is tacked on is, "... and if you're not a good person, you'll go to Hell." Why do you think the notion of Hell was invented in the first place? To scare people into obedience! That much is just fucking obvious. If people weren't threatened with eternal damnation, do you really think they'd be getting up early on Sundays to compare clothing with the rest of the town and listen to old men ramble on about 2,000 year-old fairy tales?

Yeah, some people might do it, but the majority would not.

If you are an aetheist you are not going to be able to understand something you don't even believe exists and I mean truly understand, not just pay lip service and claim to understand.

Bullshit. I was a Christian until my senior year in high school. I understand the religion and its psychologically negative effects all to well. That's why I rejected it as the bullshit that it is.

I am not saying that to be an aetheist is wrong, to each his/her own. Let me put it to you like this: Darkstar did not believe that Star Wars tech was superior to Star Trek tech, so he could not understand the concept. simply put one can not understand that which one does not believe.

So, I can't understand the concept of Santa Claus because I don't believe in it?

Cap'n Hector · Post by **Cap'n Hector** » 2003-02-21 06:15pm

From what I'm hearing here (and I haven't read the Bible, and I don't plan to), sinning is punishable by death, and not believing in God is a sin.

I don't believe in God. Shoot me.

I also don't believe in Jesus, the Holy Spirit, (unless it's Root Beer) or any other biblical stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, if God really existed then people would believe. Simple, eh? He's omnipotent, so make me believe. There'd be proof. Miracles would still occur today, beyond people believing a 2000 year old religion that's collapsing under it's own weight.

And please don't tell me about how peaceful Christianity is. Go read the Malleus Maleficarum (Witch Hammer). As the linked site says:

MalleusMaleficarum.org wrote: It served as a guidebook for Inquisitors during the Inquisition, and was designed to aid them in the identification, prosecution, and dispatching of Witches. It set forth, as well, many of the modern misconceptions and fears concerning witches and the influence of witchcraft.

This volume, which was endorsed by the Curch as part of the Inquisition, details (in part) how to extract a confession from a suspected witch or heretic. Lovely stuff, and as friendly to women as the Taliban.

But as I was saying, the base of Christianity is nowhere near image it wants to project. It's main icon is a sword. Look at the Cross, take it off the wall and hold it by the top bit...

It's secondary figure is a shepard. This makes his followers his flock...sheep in other words. The sheep get protection from the shepard. In return they get sheered and butchered...

I don't believe in God. Shoot me.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-21 06:19pm

Indeed. The Pope can apologize all he wants for the Inquisitions and Crusades, but if it wasn't for them and other violent missionary conquests, the Church wouldn't have anywhere near the influence it does today. He owes it to the Popes that carried those things out, and yet they are not officially recognized as Popes anymore.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 06:24pm

I also don't see the Catholic Church giving back any of the money it took from its victims. Their finances are opaque; no one knows how much money the Catholic Church has.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-21 06:31pm

Darth Wong wrote:I also don't see the Catholic Church giving back any of the money it took from its victims. Their finances are opaque; no one knows how much money the Catholic Church has.

Apologies are cheap; genuine contrition isn't.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2003-02-21 08:17pm

As a demostration of what fear of god(s) can accomplish, I suggest an examination of Roman religion before the Christian take over. In the Republic, the head priest decided which days could be used for business, based off of omens (the study of birds flying or an animal's liver). The priest could use this power to shape government decisions with ease. After all, the governments not going to vote on something on a given day if you say its going to piss off the gods and cause disasters. The issue is then moved back to a later date, allowing your friends to get more support their side. This is how Julius Casaer gained so much of power.

Now, remove the omens and replace it with the 'absolute' concept of hell and you have the primary control mechanism for the church (who tells you God's wishes). Also, since hell will be inflicted directly on you for disobeying, it is far more motivating than a disaster which will probably happen to someone else.