Zeon as a power in the Battletech Universe

[Norade]

I must be more tired than I thought, I'm confusing Kira with Amuro...

It's a much more major plot point in SEED, yes. But it's also stupider in SEED because only one person can apparently understand the damn OS .

Yeah, it's a pretty retarded plot point and it only serves to make 'Jesus' Yamato look like a parody of the character he's based off of.

Sounds like MS pilots were handed a steaming pile by a military that boarders on criminally incompetent. I can't think of a real military system that makes it that hard to do something as simple as lock on and fire at a target.

Zeon's first "combat-ready" Mobile Suits were rolled out in UC 0075. They had four years to collect test data and iron out the kinks in their system - including large-scale maneuvers.

The Federation, by this point, had 9 months worth of data mainly collected from captured Zeon Mobile Suits. And this didn't seem to be enough to make a combat-worthy unit - since the Federation never started producing their own Zakus based on captured examples. To top it all off - the RX-79[G]s were by all accounts built out of desperation rather than as part of an overall plan - "Let's just use the spare parts, cobble them together into a working MS, and pray they kick ass!"

In comparison, the real-world F-22 spent around a decade to go from drawing board to non-combat ready prototype - and a large portion of the development work focused around designing the electronics that would automatically handle the plane. So I wouldn't be surprised if the RX-79[G]s's electronics were total shit.

In fact, the very same problem would afflict the Gelgoog at A Bao A Qu - although ace pilots could handle them very well (no surprise since they were also handling the Zaku II R High-Maneuverability types before - which was deemed too expensive and too hard to handle for regulars anyway), novices mishandled them and died in droves. The Gelgoog's time from conceptualization to production? A mere three months.

I assume that the F-22 would seen production much quicker if the US was involved in a major war among roughly equal powers, but I also assume they would just deal with the bugs as they historically did in WWII when new designs were rolling off lines practically all war long. The sort of bugs that the Gundam had were unacceptable though, computer modeling should have told them as much before the suit was ever built.

[RhoOmicronMu]

Uh oh he's ignoring people who are informed but disagree with him. Class act here.

I'm not ignoring anyone. I was referring to the pointless almost circular argument.

[Sinanju]

If you see a boom mic on camera, do you take that literally? If you see a zipper on the monster's costume, or the strings on the flying object, do you take that literally? In the zero-g scene of 2001 where there's a floating pen rotating in the air, do you assume there's an invisible disc it is rotating around?

Fuck, in TOS, whenever there's a woman on the screen, they'd put a little grease on the camera lens to blur the image. Do you take that literally too?

Its absurd. The only sensible thing to do is to consider production reality too. It would be one thing if the plot avoided the issue, but it doesn't.

Scroll up a bit, man. Yes he would.

[Sinanju]

Fuck off, I'm not disputing that the area was jammed. I am disputing that it was bad enough to excuse Karen not switching to an IR visual mode to see through dust and that it was bad enough to account for the shit accuracy we see.

Oh good, we're finally getting somewhere. So we know that mobile suits have IR sensors, and we know that Minovsky jamming affects IR sensors. And we also know that the area is being jammed. We also know that Karen didn't use her IR sensors in that instance. So basically, you're asserting that in spite of all that the jamming wasn't that bad, Karen's just pants-on-head retarded, based on...what?

We hold most universes to higher standards than that, yet Gundam gets a pass due to the medium. I don't think so. I'm holding it to the same standards we hold Star Wars to.

So, on that note: do you think G1 Starscream can change his colors because of all those times he was colored as Thundercracker or Skywarp?

When the fuck have I ever argued that there is no Minovsky effect in Gundam? I asked for a source that isn't a fan updated website that is known to have numbers that are disproved by watching the show. If they're based on the official profiles then those are also wrong based on evidence presented in the anime.

Wow, look at those goalposts moving...

EDIT: Also, we see Terry Sanders take a 10km or so shot, we see official profiles listing ranges in the same ballpark. Nope, no evidence at all that Gundam can get that kind of distance, nosiree....

[Ritterin Sophia]

Then why did you complain when I said that the 08th team were Gundam pilots? They are piloting a Gundam type mobile suit, yes the more general term mobile suit pilot would also apply but so would the more specialized term noting that they pilot a limited production type of suit. The suit being a limited production design is telling because you don't give common grunts uncommon weapons, you tend to give specialists those weapons.

I wasn't contesting calling the 08th MS Team Gundam pilots. What I was contesting was your notion that every Gundam need be a high-performance prototype given to known aces. Of the 08th MS Team only Sanders had extensive experience, Karen had less than him, and Shiro had only the most basic and was only really talented when you compare to how he dealt with a high-performance Zaku prototype in nothing but a construction pod converted for combat. The RX-79[G] was nothing to write home about, lacking an efficient OS system (good thing there's only about 100 of the pre-production RX/RGM-79 series) for the novice pilots to work with and the only real advantages it had over a bog standard GM being Luna Titanium that allowed them to survive all but the Zaku II's dedicated anti-ship or artillery weapons and a small enough production run to make the data collected worth equipping them with actual beam rifles rather than beam spray guns. At this point in time the Federation had no real MS aces to compare to the Zeon ones that had years of experience excepting Amuro and he only did it because the RX-78 was so far beyond a Zaku II that Zeon didn't have a comparable MS until three months later and by then his latent newtype senses had covered for his lack of skill until he could bridge the experience gap.

[Balrog]

So... you're saying they can't move them, so they'll all be in the same place, and the Lyrans wouldn't have that many if they moved their entire mech army which is predominantly smaller-than-assault mechs?

Wow, you actually paid attention to what the argument was. Good job. Though as I was already corrected the Lyrans actually have more, it was the Free Worlds League I was thinking of as having one of the smaller armies (60 Mech and 700 other regiments, at least back in 3025), plus at this point the FedCom have the most with their combined strength. But then everyone's kinda busy with the Clan invasion.

So yes, even if Zeon had more Zakus than any other power, or even the entire Inner Sphere, in the beginning the only thing they'll be good for is home defense. Because just six transports severely limits when, where and how many soldiers and machines you can put in any one place outside your own solar system. But then they don't have more, and while they are better in some regards the disparity in quality between Mechs and Mobile Suits is not so great that the latter will steamroll the former.

And you're saying in a battle where BT mechs will be being destroyed, saturation fire will somehow win them battles?

Because that's what happens when you have more guns than the other guy?

Oh good, we're finally getting somewhere. So we know that mobile suits have IR sensors, and we know that Minovsky jamming affects IR sensors. And we also know that the area is being jammed. We also know that Karen didn't use her IR sensors in that instance. So basically, you're asserting that in spite of all that the jamming wasn't that bad, Karen's just pants-on-head retarded, based on...what?

Why would she not use infrared to see a target that's obscured? That's kinda the whole point of using said visual aid. And it would depend on how heavy the jamming was; even in the pic posted in this thread, you can still make out the heat sources.

[Sinanju]

Why would she not use infrared to see a target that's obscured? That's kinda the whole point of using said visual aid. And it would depend on how heavy the jamming was; even in the pic posted in this thread, you can still make out the heat sources.

I dunno, why wouldn't she be using an IR sensor in an environment that jams IR sensors?

I really can't believe how often this needs to be pointed out.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I dunno, why wouldn't she be using an IR sensor in an environment that jams IR sensors?

I really can't believe how often this needs to be pointed out.

Maybe this will help. Whilst visual magnification and IR are better than sonar or radar when in an area saturated by Minovsky Particles, it can still be jammed.

In this particular case the Federation was attacking a Zeon base with Guntanks while the 08th MS covered them. Meanwhile Norris Packard was creating a diversion and stalling so that a Zanzibar-class Cruiser loaded with injured soldiers, technicians, and supplies could retreat from Earth while simultaneously attempting to get the work finished on a prototype mobile armor designed to shoot through mountains; this was not a small base, it was simultaneously a logistics depot, testing facility, and orbital launch facility built into a mountain or possibly a string of mountains, I can't remember the specifics. In such situations they're going to be throwing out as many Minovsky Particles as they can to stop the EFF from being able to effectively engage the defenses of the base.

As an aside all sides failed in their objective, the Guntanks were destroyed by Norris and the Apsalus destroyed the Kojima Battalion's Big Tray-class Land Battleship and thus the Battalion Command. The Zanzibar was shot in flight by, IIRC, a special model of the RGM-79[G] with a beam sniper rifle connected to an external generator and the Apsalus was destroyed by the 08th MS Team's squad leader.

It should be noted that it's not IR, it's light magnification and those heat sources were beam weapons that cut through even the largest ships like butter. You can obviously make out that something is there, but you can't tell what it is just by looking, it could be friend or foe, it could be an entire wing of enemy fighters, if you're wrong though it could be a friendly wing, who knows? That's why identifying enemies requires you to be close up and why you want distinctive colors on your MS.

[Zinegata]

The sort of bugs that the Gundam had were unacceptable though, computer modeling should have told them as much before the suit was ever built.

Did you just miss that the Federation, as a whole, had less than 9 months of practical MS data to use, and that the RX-79 [G]s had even less development time than even that to do any computer modelling? (Maybe as little as one month?)

Certainly the RX-79 [G] was explicitly shown to have other design headaches - i.e. its tendency to overheat due to bad chest design.

[Norade]

Being tough to animate is an excuse for us not seeing something in a visual medium now? We don't apply that standard to any other universe so why try applying out of universe issues here?

Um, yes. Only complete fucking retards apply that standard to anything, much less to everything.

If you see a boom mic on camera, do you take that literally? If you see a zipper on the monster's costume, or the strings on the flying object, do you take that literally? In the zero-g scene of 2001 where there's a floating pen rotating in the air, do you assume there's an invisible disc it is rotating around?

Fuck, in TOS, whenever there's a woman on the screen, they'd put a little grease on the camera lens to blur the image. Do you take that literally too?

Its absurd. The only sensible thing to do is to consider production reality too. It would be one thing if the plot avoided the issue, but it doesn't.

Something like a mic or crew member in scene we would either chalk up that scene being a reproduction or we would assume that a movie was being shot nearby and a mic got in the scene, none of that effects the reliability of the source when it comes to firepower calculations though. Zippers would depend on the monster, they could be ornamentation of some sort though. A string on a ship is a bit tougher, but again I'm sure you can come up with an in universe explanation, the same goes for the other effects.

Those sorts of things happening in entirely unrelated series don't allow you to ignore things such as units changing size, the lack of a visual that we should expect to see, and grunt level mobile suits dying while standing still. That would be like justifying hand phasers not destroying packing crates because it would cost too much to show a crate exploding.

Perhaps an X-ray laser might be a bit difficult to use effectively in atmosphere but that's no excuse not to use them as a targeting system in space.

It might work in space, though it would scatter off the target too, so I'm not sure how well it would work at range, even for this.

Nor do I, but it's an option.

Also, are you trying to say that Gundam has worse laser technology than modern Earth in spite of the fact that Gundam is set in our future?

wat. We don't have x-ray lasers today. I've heard of a project Reagan or Bush was funding to get xrays out of a nuke, but that's a completely different class of things than a targetting beam and the project was canceled anyway.

We most certainly don't have solid state x-ray lasers today.

No, but we have the theory on how to build them. We also have working military grade solid state lasers that should be powerful enough to burn through M-jamming.

Fuck off, I'm not disputing that the area was jammed. I am disputing that it was bad enough to excuse Karen not switching to an IR visual mode to see through dust and that it was bad enough to account for the shit accuracy we see.

Oh good, we're finally getting somewhere. So we know that mobile suits have IR sensors, and we know that Minovsky jamming affects IR sensors. And we also know that the area is being jammed. We also know that Karen didn't use her IR sensors in that instance. So basically, you're asserting that in spite of all that the jamming wasn't that bad, Karen's just pants-on-head retarded, based on...what?

Based on the fact that their communications systems still worked and radio is more heavily effected than IR by M-jamming, by the fact that we saw no effects of M-particle saturation in the visual spectrum, and because a blurry image would be better than having no clue at all.

We hold most universes to higher standards than that, yet Gundam gets a pass due to the medium. I don't think so. I'm holding it to the same standards we hold Star Wars to.

So, on that note: do you think G1 Starscream can change his colors because of all those times he was colored as Thundercracker or Skywarp?

Fuck off you dishonest twat, that's a totally different series. It's also made painfully obvious that he has the limited ability to change colours by virtue of it being demonstrated in the show.

When the fuck have I ever argued that there is no Minovsky effect in Gundam? I asked for a source that isn't a fan updated website that is known to have numbers that are disproved by watching the show. If they're based on the official profiles then those are also wrong based on evidence presented in the anime.

Wow, look at those goalposts moving...

EDIT: Also, we see Terry Sanders take a 10km or so shot, we see official profiles listing ranges in the same ballpark. Nope, no evidence at all that Gundam can get that kind of distance, nosiree....

The fuck? It's not a goalpost shift to clarrify that I never once denied the existence of M-jamming. I have however questioned at what level certain effects start and have tried to prove the incompetence of soldiers based on the fact that IR sensors should have worked in the scene in question.

Then why did you complain when I said that the 08th team were Gundam pilots? They are piloting a Gundam type mobile suit, yes the more general term mobile suit pilot would also apply but so would the more specialized term noting that they pilot a limited production type of suit. The suit being a limited production design is telling because you don't give common grunts uncommon weapons, you tend to give specialists those weapons.

I wasn't contesting calling the 08th MS Team Gundam pilots. What I was contesting was your notion that every Gundam need be a high-performance prototype given to known aces. Of the 08th MS Team only Sanders had extensive experience, Karen had less than him, and Shiro had only the most basic and was only really talented when you compare to how he dealt with a high-performance Zaku prototype in nothing but a construction pod converted for combat. The RX-79[G] was nothing to write home about, lacking an efficient OS system (good thing there's only about 100 of the pre-production RX/RGM-79 series) for the novice pilots to work with and the only real advantages it had over a bog standard GM being Luna Titanium that allowed them to survive all but the Zaku II's dedicated anti-ship or artillery weapons and a small enough production run to make the data collected worth equipping them with actual beam rifles rather than beam spray guns. At this point in time the Federation had no real MS aces to compare to the Zeon ones that had years of experience excepting Amuro and he only did it because the RX-78 was so far beyond a Zaku II that Zeon didn't have a comparable MS until three months later and by then his latent newtype senses had covered for his lack of skill until he could bridge the experience gap.

Generally speaking a military tends to give limited production or test equipment to the soldiers best able to use that equipment and compared to the standard Federation pilots the 08th team is rather more skilled. They tend to do things like dodge incoming fire, aim before shooting, and can be counted on to always beat a normal Zaku pilot in single combat. In general these are not qualities we see from the average background pilot seen in large scale battles.

However even though they are above average it can be argued that they still aren't very good compared to a battletech pilot.

I dunno, why wouldn't she be using an IR sensor in an environment that jams IR sensors?

I really can't believe how often this needs to be pointed out.

Maybe this will help. Whilst visual magnification and IR are better than sonar or radar when in an area saturated by Minovsky Particles, it can still be jammed.

In this particular case the Federation was attacking a Zeon base with Guntanks while the 08th MS covered them. Meanwhile Norris Packard was creating a diversion and stalling so that a Zanzibar-class Cruiser loaded with injured soldiers, technicians, and supplies could retreat from Earth while simultaneously attempting to get the work finished on a prototype mobile armor designed to shoot through mountains; this was not a small base, it was simultaneously a logistics depot, testing facility, and orbital launch facility built into a mountain or possibly a string of mountains, I can't remember the specifics. In such situations they're going to be throwing out as many Minovsky Particles as they can to stop the EFF from being able to effectively engage the defenses of the base.

As an aside all sides failed in their objective, the Guntanks were destroyed by Norris and the Apsalus destroyed the Kojima Battalion's Big Tray-class Land Battleship and thus the Battalion Command. The Zanzibar was shot in flight by, IIRC, a special model of the RGM-79[G] with a beam sniper rifle connected to an external generator and the Apsalus was destroyed by the 08th MS Team's squad leader.

It should be noted that it's not IR, it's light magnification and those heat sources were beam weapons that cut through even the largest ships like butter. You can obviously make out that something is there, but you can't tell what it is just by looking, it could be friend or foe, it could be an entire wing of enemy fighters, if you're wrong though it could be a friendly wing, who knows? That's why identifying enemies requires you to be close up and why you want distinctive colors on your MS.

I think at the ranges we saw Noris would have been picked out from the smoke well enough and it would have been clear that he wasn't an ally. Even with the heaviest jamming IR would have been better than being totally unaware.

The sort of bugs that the Gundam had were unacceptable though, computer modeling should have told them as much before the suit was ever built.

Did you just miss that the Federation, as a whole, had less than 9 months of practical MS data to use, and that the RX-79 [G]s had even less development time than even that to do any computer modelling? (Maybe as little as one month?)

Certainly the RX-79 [G] was explicitly shown to have other design headaches - i.e. its tendency to overheat due to bad chest design.

I'm sorry, but we in real life have more than 9 months of data on bipedal robots. Granted our data is on the earliest types of bipedal locomotion, but we do have that data. I would thus argue that the Federation must have had enough data to realize that their control scheme was bad by the time the battles depicted in the 08th team happened. I don't expect them to be the best, but something as basic as locking onto a known enemy, aiming, and firing should have been things that were made to be as simple as possible.

and something like an overly complex control scheme should have been obvious from the outset.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Generally speaking a military tends to give limited production or test equipment to the soldiers best able to use that equipment and compared to the standard Federation pilots the 08th team is rather more skilled. They tend to do things like dodge incoming fire, aim before shooting, and can be counted on to always beat a normal Zaku pilot in single combat. In general these are not qualities we see from the average background pilot seen in large scale battles.

At this point I have to assume you're being purposefully obtuse and tell you to fuck off. Mind giving some examples? Oh and the reason the 08th MS Team can be counted to beat a Zaku in combat is because on Earth most Zaku II don't carry around artillery and anti-ship weapons.

However even though they are above average it can be argued that they still aren't very good compared to a battletech pilot.

Spare me, with every sensor available to them a Battlemech pilot is incapable of hitting a target only a couple kilometers away. At least the fucking Federation pilots have the excuse of non-standard equipment, pre-production units hurried to the front in desperation, magical particles that block nearly every form of detection known, and an almost total lack of any real training for their particular MS.

I think at the ranges we saw Noris would have been picked out from the smoke well enough and it would have been clear that he wasn't an ally. Even with the heaviest jamming IR would have been better than being totally unaware.

Could you be any more pathetic? That was in reply to your statement that the 'IR scans' could tell that there's something out there, even though determining what it was is impossible.

[Stark]

Have we really devolved into arguing that Norade finds the EF's progress toward developing their own Mobile Suits while having the entire Earth conquered isn't as fast as he thinks it should be?

The Zaku 2 was the result of nearly a decade of Zeon research and their possession of Minovsky, and Project V was nearly totally destroyed by the Zeon attack.

Oh sorry, Norade doesn't know that because he's far more interested in his preconceptions than doing research.

[Sinanju]

Based on the fact that their communications systems still worked and radio is more heavily effected than IR by M-jamming, by the fact that we saw no effects of M-particle saturation in the visual spectrum, and because a blurry image would be better than having no clue at all.

I find this stubborn insistence that visual light has to be fogged before you'll accept that there's any jamming at all to be rather...tedious. How many times do I have to repeat myself before it's drilled into your thick skull?

Fuck off you dishonest twat, that's a totally different series. It's also made painfully obvious that he has the limited ability to change colours by virtue of it being demonstrated in the show.

Oh dear, I provide an example of how silly your logic is in a different context and you think I'm trying to mislead you. Maybe that's your problem and not mine.

The fuck? It's not a goalpost shift to clarrify that I never once denied the existence of M-jamming. I have however questioned at what level certain effects start and have tried to prove the incompetence of soldiers based on the fact that IR sensors should have worked in the scene in question.

First you demanded proof that the figures were from an official source. Then when I did you decided 'oh, well, I'll throw up some new objection because that just got torpedoed'.

[Norade]

Generally speaking a military tends to give limited production or test equipment to the soldiers best able to use that equipment and compared to the standard Federation pilots the 08th team is rather more skilled. They tend to do things like dodge incoming fire, aim before shooting, and can be counted on to always beat a normal Zaku pilot in single combat. In general these are not qualities we see from the average background pilot seen in large scale battles.

At this point I have to assume you're being purposefully obtuse and tell you to fuck off. Mind giving some examples? Oh and the reason the 08th MS Team can be counted to beat a Zaku in combat is because on Earth most Zaku II don't carry around artillery and anti-ship weapons.

The 06th team's loss shows that Zaku II's can indeed kill those suits, though perhaps that was a special case and one that did have a more powerful weapon.

However even though they are above average it can be argued that they still aren't very good compared to a battletech pilot.

Spare me, with every sensor available to them a Battlemech pilot is incapable of hitting a target only a couple kilometers away. At least the fucking Federation pilots have the excuse of non-standard equipment, pre-production units hurried to the front in desperation, magical particles that block nearly every form of detection known, and an almost total lack of any real training for their particular MS.

Except that we see above average Federation pilots miss at short ranges against stationary targets, see grunt suits gunned down without them even trying to dodge, and a team that has worked together for a fair while shooting at an enemy suit one at a time instead of trying to combine fire to ensure a hit. We also see that their 180mm cannons fire at sub 100m/s velocity showing that not only does their training suck, but that their equipment sucks as well.

I think at the ranges we saw Noris would have been picked out from the smoke well enough and it would have been clear that he wasn't an ally. Even with the heaviest jamming IR would have been better than being totally unaware.

Could you be any more pathetic? That was in reply to your statement that the 'IR scans' could tell that there's something out there, even though determining what it was is impossible.

Except that I was always talking about that scene, you guys were the only people trying to claim I was referring at anything else. At near point blank range, with no visual fog, and radio communication still working we see Karen, an experienced MS pilot fail to switch to IR when it would have allowed her to see Noris moving through the smoke. This is a simple example to show that mobile suit pilots during the OYW were poorly trained and thus less capable than a mech warrior pilot.

Zeon's soldiers are even worse as we see them killed while they're standing still and not even attempting to fire at the mobile suit that's killing them.

Based on the fact that their communications systems still worked and radio is more heavily effected than IR by M-jamming, by the fact that we saw no effects of M-particle saturation in the visual spectrum, and because a blurry image would be better than having no clue at all.

I find this stubborn insistence that visual light has to be fogged before you'll accept that there's any jamming at all to be rather...tedious. How many times do I have to repeat myself before it's drilled into your thick skull?

Except that radios were also working which means that the IR spectrum would have been clear enough to use at that short of a range. Somehow each time I mention that you ignore it.

Fuck off you dishonest twat, that's a totally different series. It's also made painfully obvious that he has the limited ability to change colours by virtue of it being demonstrated in the show.

Oh dear, I provide an example of how silly your logic is in a different context and you think I'm trying to mislead you. Maybe that's your problem and not mine.

It's dishonest because we're talking about Gundam and not an entirely different series. I also pointed out that it is in fact obvious that Starscream can change colors as, if you are indeed correct, he was shown to do so through out the series.

The fuck? It's not a goalpost shift to clarrify that I never once denied the existence of M-jamming. I have however questioned at what level certain effects start and have tried to prove the incompetence of soldiers based on the fact that IR sensors should have worked in the scene in question.

First you demanded proof that the figures were from an official source. Then when I did you decided 'oh, well, I'll throw up some new objection because that just got torpedoed'.

I asked you to provide proof from an official source that the ranges for the unit in question were indeed correct. You have still yet to provide a quote from that source.

[Sinanju]

Except that radios were also working which means that the IR spectrum would have been clear enough to use at that short of a range. Somehow each time I mention that you ignore it.

Because I mentioned that the Type 74 command truck has a special system to communicate both ways over Minovsky jamming the first time you brought this up? And you blithely assumed that this unknown mechanism of unknown complexity should obviously be applicable to everything because you are a fuckwit.

It's dishonest because we're talking about Gundam and not an entirely different series. I also pointed out that it is in fact obvious that Starscream can change colors as, if you are indeed correct, he was shown to do so through out the series.

Wow, you're serious about that. Since you're obviously some kind of special, did anyone else reading this think I was trying to trick Norade or use an example with a different context?

I asked you to provide proof from an official source that the ranges for the unit in question were indeed correct. You have still yet to provide a quote from that source.

Again: where do you think MAHQ gets their information from? HINTHINT: It usually comes with every plastic model kit shrink-wrapped with the stickers and junk.

Man, what do you call it when somebody challenges you to do something, you do it, they move the goalpost on you, then ask you to do the first thing again? There totally needs to be a word for that.

[Zinegata]

The Federation didn't really have a bi-pedal combat machine before the war. The earliest Federation machine that was designed to have bipedal locomotion was the Guncannon, whose development started in UC 0077 but didn't really get into high gear until 0079.

Hence it's incredibly contrary to canon to claim that the Federation had off-the-shelf stuff to use for their own MS program. Notice how the Guntank - the first V Program machine - used tracks?

Moreover, maneuvering in space also requires a software system known as AMBAC. Given that the Gundam was capable of Space Combat with its learning computer, but the software-crippled RX-79[G]s are not, it likely indicates that the RX-79[G]s likewise didn't have a working AMBAC system yet - because again Zeon had 5 years to develop it, and the Federation had nine freaking months.

The Federation had really, really shitty MS tech prior to October 0079, before the Gundam combat data was recovered. Saying that the capabilities of Federation MS built prior to this as indicative of the capabilities of all Mobile Suits is simply dishonest.

Side Note:

And before you ask "So why was the Federaration able to make a superior MS than the Zaku?" - here's the reason: They didn't. The Gundam was a hideously conventional MS design in terms of basic frame and software - its thruster configuration for instance wasn't much different from a Zaku, and it had no hover capability.

What made the Gundam so good was its superior firepower, armor, and thrust output. The first wa provided by the e-cap system, which is basically a miniaturized beam cannon used in warships and could also be mounted on a space fighter. The second was provided by Luna Titanium, which was provided by material sciences unrelated to robot development. Thrust output was a by-product of a more powerful reactor - one possibly developed by Dr Minovsky, but which could have also easily powered a warship or heavy fighterinstead of an MS.

In short, the Federation created a scarily awesome Mobile Suit by utilizing all of its other existing technologies and putting it into one platform. But for basic MS technology itself, they were still lagging far behind - hence the need for a learning computer.

[Ritterin Sophia]

The 06th team's loss shows that Zaku II's can indeed kill those suits, though perhaps that was a special case and one that did have a more powerful weapon.

Congratulations on failing to watch the source material, if was stated in 1979 within five episodes of premiering that 120mm can not penetrate the armor of an MS in the Gundam's weight class that is armored with luna titanium.

Except that we see above average Federation pilots miss at short ranges against stationary targets, see grunt suits gunned down without them even trying to dodge, and a team that has worked together for a fair while shooting at an enemy suit one at a time instead of trying to combine fire to ensure a hit. We also see that their 180mm cannons fire at sub 100m/s velocity showing that not only does their training suck, but that their equipment sucks as well.

Source? Source? Source?

Except that I was always talking about that scene, you guys were the only people trying to claim I was referring at anything else. At near point blank range, with no visual fog, and radio communication still working we see Karen, an experienced MS pilot fail to switch to IR when it would have allowed her to see Noris moving through the smoke. This is a simple example to show that mobile suit pilots during the OYW were poorly trained and thus less capable than a mech warrior pilot.

No even if you were correct this would only show that Federation MS pilots were poorly trained, when there was no training for MS piloting because these were the very first ones fielded by them. We see fucking Sanders shoot at Norris through a god damned building and the only reason it misses is because Norris has a god damn cable to arrest his fall.

It's not true, since Shiro's Ez-8 was modified with extra communication equipment that would allow it to better broadcast and receive messages. So simply because radio works doesn't mean they're not being heavily jammed in a situation where they always had before.

Zeon's soldiers are even worse as we see them killed while they're standing still and not even attempting to fire at the mobile suit that's killing them.

And Battlemechs miss in perfectly clear conditions at only a couple dozen meters range. See I can make an unsourced statement as well.

[Zinegata]

Lasers are used in UC Gundam in two main forms.

Firstly, lasers are used for communications system. It's briefly mentioned once or twice in the original series. That's why you have situations where Mobile Suit pilots can talk to each other - albeit since it's laser-based the comms must happen within LoS.

Secondly, lasers are used as point defense weapons in 0083-version Federation warships. And they sucked.

Again though, Minovsky intereference shouldn't really affect the visible spectrum. The I-Field - a defensive technology which is basically a wall of M-particles - can shrug off even the most powerful mega-particle beam shot, but it's completely useless against solid shots and kamikaze pilots. It's not until 00120 that they develop a true shield which can shrug off even laser and solid shot fire.

[Bakustra]

Something like a mic or crew member in scene we would either chalk up that scene being a reproduction or we would assume that a movie was being shot nearby and a mic got in the scene, none of that

And I suppose the background music is because there just happens to be an orchestra following the characters around too.

Or, maybe its there because you're watching a fucking movie!

There's an even better example! In the original Star Wars movies, there were two sets used for the Millennium Falcon: an interior, and an exterior model for hangar shots. The exterior model is too small to fit the interior model within it; this is fairly obvious when looking at the cockpit closely. It simply cannot fit both Han and Chewie in their seats as well as the control panels we can see in the interior cockpit.

So, how does your method resolve this; after all, you are claiming that apparent size-changing within Gundam means that Mobile Suits can change their height arbitrarily and with disregard for the concerns of matter, so you cannot deem one size to be the more proper or accurate. Is the Millennium Falcon larger on the inside than the out, then? (A hint: in this scenario, saying "yes" is the stupid answer.)

You can bring in hundreds of examples, such as characters changing actors between films, but the point is that your approach to in-universe analysis breaks down at this point. One particular (and formerly popular) method is to assume that the material in question is a documentary or similar reproduction of actual events. Discrepancies and film errors can be thusly written off as a product of this process. This is handy because you can dismiss outliers or apparently anomalous events if need be (say, the cartridges from the blasters in pre-Special Edition A New Hope, or typos in a written work) as the errors and faults they are, without abandoning in-universe analysis altogether.

But, you said the show takes place in our future and therefore they have everything we have. Yet, they don't use laser weapons. Therefore, we do not have lasers that can burn through minovsky interference.

Lasers would seem to be ineffectual for clearing interference/jamming, and are limited by the atmosphere when it comes to targeting. Also, laser targeting is dependent on the returned "sparkle" from reflection, so even if you do have a laser than can burn through the interference, your return will still be scattered by the Minovsky effect. Theoretically, I can see several methods to disrupt or clear out Minovsky interference, all of which would be impractical and dangerous for battlefield use (and probably for any use, judging by the range of interference that has been demonstrated). I commend the Gundam writers for the effort they put into their invented technology.

EDIT: When it comes to specialized communications equipment, a radio tightbeam transmitter would be more effective than regular radio or radar, because it is more focused and thus you can devote more power to getting the message through. The same applies for laser communication, although both would be disrupted (and very staticky) under more severe interference.

[Sinanju]

Again: where do you think MAHQ gets their information from? HINTHINT: It usually comes with every plastic model kit shrink-wrapped with the stickers and junk.

Man, what do you call it when somebody challenges you to do something, you do it, they move the goalpost on you, then ask you to do the first thing again? There totally needs to be a word for that.

Anyway, since the edit window has expired. I was able to track down an artbook with the Hildolfr's official stats. Scan here.

So, anyone want to take bets on Norade immediately going back to the 'official stats don't mean anything!' canard like nothing happened?

[Swindle1984]

Man, what do you call it when somebody challenges you to do something, you do it, they move the goalpost on you, then ask you to do the first thing again? There totally needs to be a word for that.

"Dishonest fuckwit" may suffice. When referring to the action itself rather than the person doing it, "dishonest fuckwittery".

[SAMAS]

Except that we see above average Federation pilots miss at short ranges against stationary targets, see grunt suits gunned down without them even trying to dodge, and a team that has worked together for a fair while shooting at an enemy suit one at a time instead of trying to combine fire to ensure a hit. We also see that their 180mm cannons fire at sub 100m/s velocity showing that not only does their training suck, but that their equipment sucks as well.

Rule of Drama. Same reason a 10 second conversation or action only takes three during a countdown.

Compare with the Episode 8 clip again, showing the Zaku's 175mm cannon cover roughly 10km/s uninterrupted from shot to impact.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Wait, by Norade's standards of disbelief, shouldn't Gundam have another advantage due to all of them being 2-dimensional animations, and thus literally impossible to hit if they remain perpendicular to the mechs?

Not to mention all the giant yellow letters that must be floating around the Galaxy Far Far Away. And the blue letters that just phase in and out of existence, or something.

[Sinanju]

Wait, by Norade's standards of disbelief, shouldn't Gundam have another advantage due to all of them being 2-dimensional animations, and thus literally impossible to hit if they remain perpendicular to the mechs?

I think you might be on to something in Norade-world. Also, Gundams could freely alter their structure (adding new guns and stuff) with a pen and some paint.

They'd just have to watch out for turpentine-tipped missiles.

[OmegaChief]

Ah, but clearly Battletech mechs would be immne, after all what's the worst inked drawings can do to plastic model kits?

Though the battle between the rulebook illustration Mechs and Mobile suits could be interesting!