Zeon as a power in the Battletech Universe

[Ritterin Sophia]

Generally speaking a military tends to give limited production or test equipment to the soldiers best able to use that equipment and compared to the standard Federation pilots the 08th team is rather more skilled. They tend to do things like dodge incoming fire, aim before shooting, and can be counted on to always beat a normal Zaku pilot in single combat. In general these are not qualities we see from the average background pilot seen in large scale battles.

At this point I have to assume you're being purposefully obtuse and tell you to fuck off. Mind giving some examples? Oh and the reason the 08th MS Team can be counted to beat a Zaku in combat is because on Earth most Zaku II don't carry around artillery and anti-ship weapons.

However even though they are above average it can be argued that they still aren't very good compared to a battletech pilot.

Spare me, with every sensor available to them a Battlemech pilot is incapable of hitting a target only a couple kilometers away. At least the fucking Federation pilots have the excuse of non-standard equipment, pre-production units hurried to the front in desperation, magical particles that block nearly every form of detection known, and an almost total lack of any real training for their particular MS.

I think at the ranges we saw Noris would have been picked out from the smoke well enough and it would have been clear that he wasn't an ally. Even with the heaviest jamming IR would have been better than being totally unaware.

Could you be any more pathetic? That was in reply to your statement that the 'IR scans' could tell that there's something out there, even though determining what it was is impossible.

[Stark]

Have we really devolved into arguing that Norade finds the EF's progress toward developing their own Mobile Suits while having the entire Earth conquered isn't as fast as he thinks it should be?

The Zaku 2 was the result of nearly a decade of Zeon research and their possession of Minovsky, and Project V was nearly totally destroyed by the Zeon attack.

Oh sorry, Norade doesn't know that because he's far more interested in his preconceptions than doing research.

[Sinanju]

Based on the fact that their communications systems still worked and radio is more heavily effected than IR by M-jamming, by the fact that we saw no effects of M-particle saturation in the visual spectrum, and because a blurry image would be better than having no clue at all.

I find this stubborn insistence that visual light has to be fogged before you'll accept that there's any jamming at all to be rather...tedious. How many times do I have to repeat myself before it's drilled into your thick skull?

Fuck off you dishonest twat, that's a totally different series. It's also made painfully obvious that he has the limited ability to change colours by virtue of it being demonstrated in the show.

Oh dear, I provide an example of how silly your logic is in a different context and you think I'm trying to mislead you. Maybe that's your problem and not mine.

The fuck? It's not a goalpost shift to clarrify that I never once denied the existence of M-jamming. I have however questioned at what level certain effects start and have tried to prove the incompetence of soldiers based on the fact that IR sensors should have worked in the scene in question.

First you demanded proof that the figures were from an official source. Then when I did you decided 'oh, well, I'll throw up some new objection because that just got torpedoed'.

[Norade]

Generally speaking a military tends to give limited production or test equipment to the soldiers best able to use that equipment and compared to the standard Federation pilots the 08th team is rather more skilled. They tend to do things like dodge incoming fire, aim before shooting, and can be counted on to always beat a normal Zaku pilot in single combat. In general these are not qualities we see from the average background pilot seen in large scale battles.

At this point I have to assume you're being purposefully obtuse and tell you to fuck off. Mind giving some examples? Oh and the reason the 08th MS Team can be counted to beat a Zaku in combat is because on Earth most Zaku II don't carry around artillery and anti-ship weapons.

The 06th team's loss shows that Zaku II's can indeed kill those suits, though perhaps that was a special case and one that did have a more powerful weapon.

However even though they are above average it can be argued that they still aren't very good compared to a battletech pilot.

Spare me, with every sensor available to them a Battlemech pilot is incapable of hitting a target only a couple kilometers away. At least the fucking Federation pilots have the excuse of non-standard equipment, pre-production units hurried to the front in desperation, magical particles that block nearly every form of detection known, and an almost total lack of any real training for their particular MS.

Except that we see above average Federation pilots miss at short ranges against stationary targets, see grunt suits gunned down without them even trying to dodge, and a team that has worked together for a fair while shooting at an enemy suit one at a time instead of trying to combine fire to ensure a hit. We also see that their 180mm cannons fire at sub 100m/s velocity showing that not only does their training suck, but that their equipment sucks as well.

I think at the ranges we saw Noris would have been picked out from the smoke well enough and it would have been clear that he wasn't an ally. Even with the heaviest jamming IR would have been better than being totally unaware.

Could you be any more pathetic? That was in reply to your statement that the 'IR scans' could tell that there's something out there, even though determining what it was is impossible.

Except that I was always talking about that scene, you guys were the only people trying to claim I was referring at anything else. At near point blank range, with no visual fog, and radio communication still working we see Karen, an experienced MS pilot fail to switch to IR when it would have allowed her to see Noris moving through the smoke. This is a simple example to show that mobile suit pilots during the OYW were poorly trained and thus less capable than a mech warrior pilot.

Zeon's soldiers are even worse as we see them killed while they're standing still and not even attempting to fire at the mobile suit that's killing them.

Based on the fact that their communications systems still worked and radio is more heavily effected than IR by M-jamming, by the fact that we saw no effects of M-particle saturation in the visual spectrum, and because a blurry image would be better than having no clue at all.

I find this stubborn insistence that visual light has to be fogged before you'll accept that there's any jamming at all to be rather...tedious. How many times do I have to repeat myself before it's drilled into your thick skull?

Except that radios were also working which means that the IR spectrum would have been clear enough to use at that short of a range. Somehow each time I mention that you ignore it.

Fuck off you dishonest twat, that's a totally different series. It's also made painfully obvious that he has the limited ability to change colours by virtue of it being demonstrated in the show.

Oh dear, I provide an example of how silly your logic is in a different context and you think I'm trying to mislead you. Maybe that's your problem and not mine.

It's dishonest because we're talking about Gundam and not an entirely different series. I also pointed out that it is in fact obvious that Starscream can change colors as, if you are indeed correct, he was shown to do so through out the series.

The fuck? It's not a goalpost shift to clarrify that I never once denied the existence of M-jamming. I have however questioned at what level certain effects start and have tried to prove the incompetence of soldiers based on the fact that IR sensors should have worked in the scene in question.

First you demanded proof that the figures were from an official source. Then when I did you decided 'oh, well, I'll throw up some new objection because that just got torpedoed'.

I asked you to provide proof from an official source that the ranges for the unit in question were indeed correct. You have still yet to provide a quote from that source.

[Sinanju]

Except that radios were also working which means that the IR spectrum would have been clear enough to use at that short of a range. Somehow each time I mention that you ignore it.

Because I mentioned that the Type 74 command truck has a special system to communicate both ways over Minovsky jamming the first time you brought this up? And you blithely assumed that this unknown mechanism of unknown complexity should obviously be applicable to everything because you are a fuckwit.

It's dishonest because we're talking about Gundam and not an entirely different series. I also pointed out that it is in fact obvious that Starscream can change colors as, if you are indeed correct, he was shown to do so through out the series.

Wow, you're serious about that. Since you're obviously some kind of special, did anyone else reading this think I was trying to trick Norade or use an example with a different context?

I asked you to provide proof from an official source that the ranges for the unit in question were indeed correct. You have still yet to provide a quote from that source.

Again: where do you think MAHQ gets their information from? HINTHINT: It usually comes with every plastic model kit shrink-wrapped with the stickers and junk.

Man, what do you call it when somebody challenges you to do something, you do it, they move the goalpost on you, then ask you to do the first thing again? There totally needs to be a word for that.

[Zinegata]

The Federation didn't really have a bi-pedal combat machine before the war. The earliest Federation machine that was designed to have bipedal locomotion was the Guncannon, whose development started in UC 0077 but didn't really get into high gear until 0079.

Hence it's incredibly contrary to canon to claim that the Federation had off-the-shelf stuff to use for their own MS program. Notice how the Guntank - the first V Program machine - used tracks?

Moreover, maneuvering in space also requires a software system known as AMBAC. Given that the Gundam was capable of Space Combat with its learning computer, but the software-crippled RX-79[G]s are not, it likely indicates that the RX-79[G]s likewise didn't have a working AMBAC system yet - because again Zeon had 5 years to develop it, and the Federation had nine freaking months.

The Federation had really, really shitty MS tech prior to October 0079, before the Gundam combat data was recovered. Saying that the capabilities of Federation MS built prior to this as indicative of the capabilities of all Mobile Suits is simply dishonest.

Side Note:

And before you ask "So why was the Federaration able to make a superior MS than the Zaku?" - here's the reason: They didn't. The Gundam was a hideously conventional MS design in terms of basic frame and software - its thruster configuration for instance wasn't much different from a Zaku, and it had no hover capability.

What made the Gundam so good was its superior firepower, armor, and thrust output. The first wa provided by the e-cap system, which is basically a miniaturized beam cannon used in warships and could also be mounted on a space fighter. The second was provided by Luna Titanium, which was provided by material sciences unrelated to robot development. Thrust output was a by-product of a more powerful reactor - one possibly developed by Dr Minovsky, but which could have also easily powered a warship or heavy fighterinstead of an MS.

In short, the Federation created a scarily awesome Mobile Suit by utilizing all of its other existing technologies and putting it into one platform. But for basic MS technology itself, they were still lagging far behind - hence the need for a learning computer.

[Ritterin Sophia]

The 06th team's loss shows that Zaku II's can indeed kill those suits, though perhaps that was a special case and one that did have a more powerful weapon.

Congratulations on failing to watch the source material, if was stated in 1979 within five episodes of premiering that 120mm can not penetrate the armor of an MS in the Gundam's weight class that is armored with luna titanium.

Except that we see above average Federation pilots miss at short ranges against stationary targets, see grunt suits gunned down without them even trying to dodge, and a team that has worked together for a fair while shooting at an enemy suit one at a time instead of trying to combine fire to ensure a hit. We also see that their 180mm cannons fire at sub 100m/s velocity showing that not only does their training suck, but that their equipment sucks as well.

Source? Source? Source?

Except that I was always talking about that scene, you guys were the only people trying to claim I was referring at anything else. At near point blank range, with no visual fog, and radio communication still working we see Karen, an experienced MS pilot fail to switch to IR when it would have allowed her to see Noris moving through the smoke. This is a simple example to show that mobile suit pilots during the OYW were poorly trained and thus less capable than a mech warrior pilot.

No even if you were correct this would only show that Federation MS pilots were poorly trained, when there was no training for MS piloting because these were the very first ones fielded by them. We see fucking Sanders shoot at Norris through a god damned building and the only reason it misses is because Norris has a god damn cable to arrest his fall.

It's not true, since Shiro's Ez-8 was modified with extra communication equipment that would allow it to better broadcast and receive messages. So simply because radio works doesn't mean they're not being heavily jammed in a situation where they always had before.

Zeon's soldiers are even worse as we see them killed while they're standing still and not even attempting to fire at the mobile suit that's killing them.

And Battlemechs miss in perfectly clear conditions at only a couple dozen meters range. See I can make an unsourced statement as well.

[Zinegata]

Lasers are used in UC Gundam in two main forms.

Firstly, lasers are used for communications system. It's briefly mentioned once or twice in the original series. That's why you have situations where Mobile Suit pilots can talk to each other - albeit since it's laser-based the comms must happen within LoS.

Secondly, lasers are used as point defense weapons in 0083-version Federation warships. And they sucked.

Again though, Minovsky intereference shouldn't really affect the visible spectrum. The I-Field - a defensive technology which is basically a wall of M-particles - can shrug off even the most powerful mega-particle beam shot, but it's completely useless against solid shots and kamikaze pilots. It's not until 00120 that they develop a true shield which can shrug off even laser and solid shot fire.

[Bakustra]

Something like a mic or crew member in scene we would either chalk up that scene being a reproduction or we would assume that a movie was being shot nearby and a mic got in the scene, none of that

And I suppose the background music is because there just happens to be an orchestra following the characters around too.

Or, maybe its there because you're watching a fucking movie!

There's an even better example! In the original Star Wars movies, there were two sets used for the Millennium Falcon: an interior, and an exterior model for hangar shots. The exterior model is too small to fit the interior model within it; this is fairly obvious when looking at the cockpit closely. It simply cannot fit both Han and Chewie in their seats as well as the control panels we can see in the interior cockpit.

So, how does your method resolve this; after all, you are claiming that apparent size-changing within Gundam means that Mobile Suits can change their height arbitrarily and with disregard for the concerns of matter, so you cannot deem one size to be the more proper or accurate. Is the Millennium Falcon larger on the inside than the out, then? (A hint: in this scenario, saying "yes" is the stupid answer.)

You can bring in hundreds of examples, such as characters changing actors between films, but the point is that your approach to in-universe analysis breaks down at this point. One particular (and formerly popular) method is to assume that the material in question is a documentary or similar reproduction of actual events. Discrepancies and film errors can be thusly written off as a product of this process. This is handy because you can dismiss outliers or apparently anomalous events if need be (say, the cartridges from the blasters in pre-Special Edition A New Hope, or typos in a written work) as the errors and faults they are, without abandoning in-universe analysis altogether.

But, you said the show takes place in our future and therefore they have everything we have. Yet, they don't use laser weapons. Therefore, we do not have lasers that can burn through minovsky interference.

Lasers would seem to be ineffectual for clearing interference/jamming, and are limited by the atmosphere when it comes to targeting. Also, laser targeting is dependent on the returned "sparkle" from reflection, so even if you do have a laser than can burn through the interference, your return will still be scattered by the Minovsky effect. Theoretically, I can see several methods to disrupt or clear out Minovsky interference, all of which would be impractical and dangerous for battlefield use (and probably for any use, judging by the range of interference that has been demonstrated). I commend the Gundam writers for the effort they put into their invented technology.

EDIT: When it comes to specialized communications equipment, a radio tightbeam transmitter would be more effective than regular radio or radar, because it is more focused and thus you can devote more power to getting the message through. The same applies for laser communication, although both would be disrupted (and very staticky) under more severe interference.

[Sinanju]

Again: where do you think MAHQ gets their information from? HINTHINT: It usually comes with every plastic model kit shrink-wrapped with the stickers and junk.

Man, what do you call it when somebody challenges you to do something, you do it, they move the goalpost on you, then ask you to do the first thing again? There totally needs to be a word for that.

Anyway, since the edit window has expired. I was able to track down an artbook with the Hildolfr's official stats. Scan here.

So, anyone want to take bets on Norade immediately going back to the 'official stats don't mean anything!' canard like nothing happened?

[Swindle1984]

Man, what do you call it when somebody challenges you to do something, you do it, they move the goalpost on you, then ask you to do the first thing again? There totally needs to be a word for that.

"Dishonest fuckwit" may suffice. When referring to the action itself rather than the person doing it, "dishonest fuckwittery".

[SAMAS]

Except that we see above average Federation pilots miss at short ranges against stationary targets, see grunt suits gunned down without them even trying to dodge, and a team that has worked together for a fair while shooting at an enemy suit one at a time instead of trying to combine fire to ensure a hit. We also see that their 180mm cannons fire at sub 100m/s velocity showing that not only does their training suck, but that their equipment sucks as well.

Rule of Drama. Same reason a 10 second conversation or action only takes three during a countdown.

Compare with the Episode 8 clip again, showing the Zaku's 175mm cannon cover roughly 10km/s uninterrupted from shot to impact.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Wait, by Norade's standards of disbelief, shouldn't Gundam have another advantage due to all of them being 2-dimensional animations, and thus literally impossible to hit if they remain perpendicular to the mechs?

Not to mention all the giant yellow letters that must be floating around the Galaxy Far Far Away. And the blue letters that just phase in and out of existence, or something.

[Sinanju]

Wait, by Norade's standards of disbelief, shouldn't Gundam have another advantage due to all of them being 2-dimensional animations, and thus literally impossible to hit if they remain perpendicular to the mechs?

I think you might be on to something in Norade-world. Also, Gundams could freely alter their structure (adding new guns and stuff) with a pen and some paint.

They'd just have to watch out for turpentine-tipped missiles.

[OmegaChief]

Ah, but clearly Battletech mechs would be immne, after all what's the worst inked drawings can do to plastic model kits?

Though the battle between the rulebook illustration Mechs and Mobile suits could be interesting!

[Stark]

I don't think these guys are much threat.

[Norade]

Except that radios were also working which means that the IR spectrum would have been clear enough to use at that short of a range. Somehow each time I mention that you ignore it.

Because I mentioned that the Type 74 command truck has a special system to communicate both ways over Minovsky jamming the first time you brought this up? And you blithely assumed that this unknown mechanism of unknown complexity should obviously be applicable to everything because you are a fuckwit.

Except that while that command truck could have a powerful receiver as well that doesn't explain why Noris could receive Shiro's communications without static. Unless you're trying to claim that the command truck was operating on a frequency that Noris was also tuned to.

It's dishonest because we're talking about Gundam and not an entirely different series. I also pointed out that it is in fact obvious that Starscream can change colors as, if you are indeed correct, he was shown to do so through out the series.

Wow, you're serious about that. Since you're obviously some kind of special, did anyone else reading this think I was trying to trick Norade or use an example with a different context?

What other in universe explanation is there for Starscream changing colour? Also dishonest can also be used to mean unfair which is what using examples from across many series to show why Gundam doesn't have to show effects we should see is.

I asked you to provide proof from an official source that the ranges for the unit in question were indeed correct. You have still yet to provide a quote from that source.

Again: where do you think MAHQ gets their information from? HINTHINT: It usually comes with every plastic model kit shrink-wrapped with the stickers and junk.

Man, what do you call it when somebody challenges you to do something, you do it, they move the goalpost on you, then ask you to do the first thing again? There totally needs to be a word for that.

Except that I asked where the source was from, you said official profiles without listing a source and then proceeded to claim that I was attempting to disprove that the M-effect in Gundam. You shifted the goalposts first, not I.

Here are my first, your second, and my third posts from the start of this exchange:

What is the source for that besides an unreliable at best website?

Jesus titty-fucking Christ, you are really determined with this whole 'trying to disprove the Minovsky effect in Gundam' thing aren't you? Are you really going to start arguing with the official profiles now? Or didn't you know where these things come from?

When the fuck have I ever argued that there is no Minovsky effect in Gundam? I asked for a source that isn't a fan updated website that is known to have numbers that are disproved by watching the show. If they're based on the official profiles then those are also wrong based on evidence presented in the anime.

I only started talking about the M-effect here because you brought it up.

Something like a mic or crew member in scene we would either chalk up that scene being a reproduction or we would assume that a movie was being shot nearby and a mic got in the scene, none of that

And I suppose the background music is because there just happens to be an orchestra following the characters around too.

Or, maybe its there because you're watching a fucking movie!

So Mike's asteroid destruction calculations are wrong now because Star Wars has a musical score? Fuck off.

It's obvious that a score was added to real footage in post to make the scenes more watchable.

effects the reliability of the source when it comes to firepower calculations though.

That's utterly absurd. Assuming we use your method, if something is a recreation, you'd expect them to take shortcuts; to fake things for ease of production. You can't do calculations for a real thing off a fake thing.

We would discount that scene as possible replacement footage when real footage wasn't available. Do you throw out Mike's asteroid destruction calculations because there are effects and continuity errors in Star Wars?

No, but we have the theory on how to build them. We also have working military grade solid state lasers that should be powerful enough to burn through M-jamming.

But, you said the show takes place in our future and therefore they have everything we have. Yet, they don't use laser weapons. Therefore, we do not have lasers that can burn through minovsky interference.

Or the militaries in Gundam are run by retards and they don't use the best technology available because bipedal combat systems = awesome. Never mind that a jet fighter or a tank massing as much as a mobile suit would be faster, more stable, could carry larger weapons, and would be easier to shield from M-effects than a mobile suit is.

The 06th team's loss shows that Zaku II's can indeed kill those suits, though perhaps that was a special case and one that did have a more powerful weapon.

Congratulations on failing to watch the source material, if was stated in 1979 within five episodes of premiering that 120mm can not penetrate the armor of an MS in the Gundam's weight class that is armored with luna titanium.

And Panzers were always immune to fire from a Sherman as well... Oh wait. Any mobile suit will still have joints and weak spots that would allow them to be defeated by a lesser armed and armored machine because no matter how hard you try you can't armor everything.

Except that we see above average Federation pilots miss at short ranges against stationary targets, see grunt suits gunned down without them even trying to dodge, and a team that has worked together for a fair while shooting at an enemy suit one at a time instead of trying to combine fire to ensure a hit. We also see that their 180mm cannons fire at sub 100m/s velocity showing that not only does their training suck, but that their equipment sucks as well.

Source? Source? Source?

The clip that Commander 589 posted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ubiNqkTMIU

At 0:33 we see Karen fire and miss high over Noris' shoulder, he is not moving at that time.

At 0:45 seconds we see Noris drop down and the Guntank doesn't make any attempt to evade in spite of the fact that you should be able to hear a mobile suit crash through a skylight, see the shards of glass falling around you, or be warned by your buddies who can communicate with you and know where you're positioned.

At 1:00 we see Sanders fire his low velocity shot that narrowly misses Noris.

At 2:13 we see Noris fire and start running at Karen.

At 2:40 we see Karen firing wildly with her suit's chest cannon.

At 2:44 we see the Guntank not having moved and firing at nothing while Noris kills it.

At 2:58 we see Sanders fire again from well under 200m and by the time it hits at 3:00 Noris has moved.

At 3:05 we see Noris' shots hit Sanders' suit one shot hits his shield and one impacts his 180mm cannon.

At 3:14 the last Guntank starts to fire and we see it fire behind Noris until the shot at 3:23 hits in front of him. Shiro is beside this Guntank and isn't yet making any attempts to hit Noris.

At 3:33 the raised highway collapses from a Guntank shot and Shiro has started advancing.

At 3:39 Noris' suit demonstrates great strength moving the downed road section and using it to distract Shiro while he moves in. Shiro stands there like a tool for a bit while Noris moves in slowly.

At 4:08 Shiro fires at near point blank and his 100mm rifle does fuck all.

At 4:16 Noris fires a short burst of 75mm fire and misses. We see the shots impact a building to little effect.

At 4:20 Shiro fires missing the stationary Noris with every shot as his suit falls and dealing no noticeable damage to buildings that are hit by this fire. Shortly after the Guntank is seen backing away firing and missing badly as we never even see these shots land.

At 4:45 Noris fires with his triple 35mm cannons and Shiro blocks these shots easily.

At 4:50 Shiro fires from prone and misses high. Again Noris is standing still.

At 5:07 we see Noris hit Shiro's shield with his heat saber for little damage aside from a gouge, shortly after Shiro is out of ammo.

At 5:28 we see Noris hit with his electric grapple removing Shiro's shield and showing us that electric shock can disable limbs on a mobile suit.

At 5:34 we see Shiro's suit's arm get hit with the saber and it takes what looks like only minor damage to its armor.

At 5:56 we see Noris leap into the air and shcok the chest of Shiro's MS disabling it.

At 7:03 we see Karen and Sanders ready to defend the Guntank in melee.

At 7:40 Shiro manages to get his suit back online and kicks off of Noris.

At 7:48 Noris grabs his saber with his cable while Shiro tears his suit's damaged arm off to use as a club.

At 8:00 we see Shiro forcing Noris to defend as he presses forward with his arm club. He mentions Aina and Noris hears him over his comm. Shocked Noris takes the arm across his suit's face and the face tubes are smashed off and his suit is knocked sideways. Noris runs after the Guntank.

At 8:42 Shiro bisects Noris' suit with his beam saber while Noris kills the final Guntan with 35mm fire.

In this short clip we see grunt Guntanks killed without a fight, horrible accuracy, slow projectiles/beams, and weapons that do very little damage to buildings. Find a clip of an A-10 firing at a building and compare the damage done by 75mm and 100mm cannons in this scene, the A-10 wins.

In the clip SAMAS posted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o0FrsPU7Nw

At 0:33 we see that a man portable rocket can bring down a Zaku if you hit a weak point.

At 1:32 we see Shiro dodge a 120mm round at point blank on foot, he then shoots the magazine which explodes but not violently enough to harm the nearby Shiro.

This shows that tiny rounds can defeat Zakus.

Except that I was always talking about that scene, you guys were the only people trying to claim I was referring at anything else. At near point blank range, with no visual fog, and radio communication still working we see Karen, an experienced MS pilot fail to switch to IR when it would have allowed her to see Noris moving through the smoke. This is a simple example to show that mobile suit pilots during the OYW were poorly trained and thus less capable than a mech warrior pilot.

No even if you were correct this would only show that Federation MS pilots were poorly trained, when there was no training for MS piloting because these were the very first ones fielded by them. We see fucking Sanders shoot at Norris through a god damned building and the only reason it misses is because Norris has a god damn cable to arrest his fall.

It's not true, since Shiro's Ez-8 was modified with extra communication equipment that would allow it to better broadcast and receive messages. So simply because radio works doesn't mean they're not being heavily jammed in a situation where they always had before.

From the sources I have Shiro's Ez-8 was modified with a tougher single antenna but no mention that it had better performance. Do you have a source that his suit had better comm gear and not just sturdier more damage resistant gear. It was however noted as having better armor and we can see that in the scene I analyzed above.

Zeon's soldiers are even worse as we see them killed while they're standing still and not even attempting to fire at the mobile suit that's killing them.

And Battlemechs miss in perfectly clear conditions at only a couple dozen meters range. See I can make an unsourced statement as well.

So do Zeon's soldiers, I'll dig up a scene showing this, but this post has taken long enough so allow me to to that later.

There's an even better example! In the original Star Wars movies, there were two sets used for the Millennium Falcon: an interior, and an exterior model for hangar shots. The exterior model is too small to fit the interior model within it; this is fairly obvious when looking at the cockpit closely. It simply cannot fit both Han and Chewie in their seats as well as the control panels we can see in the interior cockpit.

So, how does your method resolve this; after all, you are claiming that apparent size-changing within Gundam means that Mobile Suits can change their height arbitrarily and with disregard for the concerns of matter, so you cannot deem one size to be the more proper or accurate. Is the Millennium Falcon larger on the inside than the out, then? (A hint: in this scenario, saying "yes" is the stupid answer.)

You can bring in hundreds of examples, such as characters changing actors between films, but the point is that your approach to in-universe analysis breaks down at this point. One particular (and formerly popular) method is to assume that the material in question is a documentary or similar reproduction of actual events. Discrepancies and film errors can be thusly written off as a product of this process. This is handy because you can dismiss outliers or apparently anomalous events if need be (say, the cartridges from the blasters in pre-Special Edition A New Hope, or typos in a written work) as the errors and faults they are, without abandoning in-universe analysis altogether.

Yes, I was aware of the Falcon issue and the sets as well as the tubes leading to the turrets having a placement issue. Unlike most other issues that is a tougher one to resolve, I would say that the only available footage of the Falcon was shot externally so they had to recreate the internal scenes and the documentary crew fucked up. All other scenes would be considered real footage unless there is a reason to believe otherwise.

I would generally write Gundam stuff off the same way, but that doesn't excuse the things we should see but don't or the times we see suits standing still while being cut down.

But, you said the show takes place in our future and therefore they have everything we have. Yet, they don't use laser weapons. Therefore, we do not have lasers that can burn through minovsky interference.

Lasers would seem to be ineffectual for clearing interference/jamming, and are limited by the atmosphere when it comes to targeting. Also, laser targeting is dependent on the returned "sparkle" from reflection, so even if you do have a laser than can burn through the interference, your return will still be scattered by the Minovsky effect. Theoretically, I can see several methods to disrupt or clear out Minovsky interference, all of which would be impractical and dangerous for battlefield use (and probably for any use, judging by the range of interference that has been demonstrated). I commend the Gundam writers for the effort they put into their invented technology.

EDIT: When it comes to specialized communications equipment, a radio tightbeam transmitter would be more effective than regular radio or radar, because it is more focused and thus you can devote more power to getting the message through. The same applies for laser communication, although both would be disrupted (and very staticky) under more severe interference.

Except that in most cases a visible spectrum laser shouldn't be effected any worse than the visible light that we can see perfectly fine through in nearly all Gundam combat scenes.

Again: where do you think MAHQ gets their information from? HINTHINT: It usually comes with every plastic model kit shrink-wrapped with the stickers and junk.

Man, what do you call it when somebody challenges you to do something, you do it, they move the goalpost on you, then ask you to do the first thing again? There totally needs to be a word for that.

Anyway, since the edit window has expired. I was able to track down an artbook with the Hildolfr's official stats. Scan here.

So, anyone want to take bets on Norade immediately going back to the 'official stats don't mean anything!' canard like nothing happened?

Yeah, you're the one that claimed I was denying the effects of M-jamming when I was clearly saying they were often overstated. Anyway, thanks for showing the original source, had you done that from the outset it would have been easier.

Except that we see above average Federation pilots miss at short ranges against stationary targets, see grunt suits gunned down without them even trying to dodge, and a team that has worked together for a fair while shooting at an enemy suit one at a time instead of trying to combine fire to ensure a hit. We also see that their 180mm cannons fire at sub 100m/s velocity showing that not only does their training suck, but that their equipment sucks as well.

Rule of Drama. Same reason a 10 second conversation or action only takes three during a countdown.

Compare with the Episode 8 clip again, showing the Zaku's 175mm cannon cover roughly 10km/s uninterrupted from shot to impact.

Rule of drama my ass, we see 180mm rounds moving at sub 100m/s speeds on more than one occasion. We also see incredibly weak 75mm shots not collapsing buildings as we should expect such fire to do.

Wait, by Norade's standards of disbelief, shouldn't Gundam have another advantage due to all of them being 2-dimensional animations, and thus literally impossible to hit if they remain perpendicular to the mechs?

Not to mention all the giant yellow letters that must be floating around the Galaxy Far Far Away. And the blue letters that just phase in and out of existence, or something.

Fuck off with the +1 posting, I have enough people to respond to already without your worthless spam.

I don't think these guys are much threat.

You know, except for the fact that the mech further back is actually scoring a hit that looks to be tearing the other suit's arm off.

[Stark]

See guys? A guy missing at literally 20m against stationary targets is totally fine if another guy scores a minor hit (ps the arm has a cavity there, oops). That's cause Btech is just better.

[Norade]

See guys? A guy missing at literally 20m against stationary targets is totally fine if another guy scores a minor hit (ps the arm has a cavity there, oops). That's cause Btech is just better.

Except that we can see molten metal flying off of the impact site and the other suit's shot missing is likely due to it snapping off a shot just after it was hit. That's how I see it anyway.

Besides, it's still better than sub 100m/s cannon rounds and 100mm and 75mm rounds not doing fuck all to buildings.

[Ford Prefect]

Except you're fine with totally ignoring someone narrowly missing a person he fired at through a building, and only missing because his target predicted it happening and arrested his fall in time. It would have hit Norris in the cockpit, no less.

[Norade]

Except you're fine with totally ignoring someone narrowly missing a person he fired at through a building, and only missing because his target predicted it happening and arrested his fall in time. It would have hit Norris in the cockpit, no less.

In light of all the other misses we see I'd be inclined to say that it was a great shot by an average pilot. It's also one of the times we actually see a suit lock on and fire so I'm not even sure how much of that was pilot skill versus standing still, bracing, and taking a computer assisted shot.

[Stark]

In light of all the other misses we see I'd be inclined to say that it was a great shot by an average pilot. It's also one of the times we actually see a suit lock on and fire so I'm not even sure how much of that was pilot skill versus standing still, bracing, and taking a computer assisted shot.

Evidence of complex target prediction and accurate weapons = lol he was lucky

Missing so close you could fall over and hit them = not so bad

Am I getting this right? Your very personal definition of 'accurate' seems to need a bit of work.

[Norade]

In light of all the other misses we see I'd be inclined to say that it was a great shot by an average pilot. It's also one of the times we actually see a suit lock on and fire so I'm not even sure how much of that was pilot skill versus standing still, bracing, and taking a computer assisted shot.

Evidence of complex target prediction and accurate weapons = lol he was lucky

Missing so close you could fall over and hit them = not so bad

Am I getting this right? Your very personal definition of 'accurate' seems to need a bit of work.

Except that even with the less than perfect computer he probably did little aside from have the computer predict where to fire and then order it to do so. Had he made the shot manually, or lined that shot up under fire, it would show actual pilot skill, as it was he had time and his own life wasn't at risk so it was hardly a difficult shot.

Put it this way, in modern fighter combat which maters more, his skill or his aircraft's radar and his munitions ability to track and hit a target?

[Vendetta]

Put it this way, in modern fighter combat which maters more, his skill or his aircraft's radar and his munitions ability to track and hit a target?

What matters is who flies home and who makes a smoking crater in the floor.

[Stark]

Except that even with the less than perfect computer he probably did little aside from have the computer predict where to fire and then order it to do so.

Uh... prove it? Do you know how guns are laid with Mobile Suits?

Had he made the shot manually, or lined that shot up under fire, it would show actual pilot skill, as it was he had time and his own life wasn't at risk so it was hardly a difficult shot.

Shooting guy you can't even see = not hard.

Shooting stationary giant mech 20m away = missing acceptable.

Got it.

Put it this way, in modern fighter combat which maters more, his skill or his aircraft's radar and his munitions ability to track and hit a target?

Define 'modern fighter combat' and we can talk about whether you have a point or if you're just being a dickhead.