To be fair, Fed tanks appear to be terrible tanks probably mounting dual barreled howitzers for guns, probably skimping on armor, and mostly loaded with HE because they were likely designed and their bases outfitted with the express purpose of shelling insurgent villages and Zeon tanks, aside from the Eins, are fucking huge and likely have little armor.
The original Type 61 was not even equipped with machine guns. It wasn't until the 08th MS Team that they were upgraded from "pretty damn bad" to "sorta respectable". The 150mm guns, while not necessarily howitzers, don't seem to fire high-velocity armor piercing shells.
That being said, Type 61s enmasse defeated Zakus enmasse (See Operation Odessa). So they're far from useless, albeit they also had support from massive airpower.
OTOH, 08th shows that a veteran tank crew can, in fact, defeat non-Dom Mobile Suits. The Magella attack in particular has an excellent 175mm anti-tank gun... albeit the rest of its design is a horrible monstrosity that makes even the Type 61's configuration look straightforward and sane.
Bottlestein wrote:Not having seen all of Zeta - what did Zeon have planned after Gelgoog Jaegers? They have quite a good ability to tack on updates as the suits are being mass produced. The suit used by Char at the end of Char's Counterattack - was there any mass production version planned for that?
The Gelgoog was honestly just at the beginning of its development cycle when it was rolled out, albeit they already had no less than 4 wartime variants, 5 if the Gelgoog Marines actually saw action during the war (and weren't just refitted in the 0079-0083 period). The short-term plan was to convert all "A" models to "B" models (add a backpack for more thrusters), and to selectively upgrade many "B" models to ship-killing "C" models (Gelgoog Cannon). In fact enough Gelgoog Cannon conversion kits were built to refit almost every Gelgoog already in the field, but they didn't reach the frontlines before A Bao A Qu.
The Jaeger itself is a bit of an abberation, but as it's generally assumed to be a one-off variant of the Gelgoog family.
After that... who knows. The Federation took over Zeon production facilities after the war and produced a few new MS that bear resemblance to the Gelgoog, but we can't really say if this was the original intent of the Zeon designers. Assuming they had plans - Zeon isn't exactly known for smooth, long-term MS development plans.
I actually think the Magella is a fascinating tank design from people used to low-gravity environments who were workign with high-agility mobile suits at the same time. It's like a spaceship .... tank... hover... capsule.
Zinegata wrote:The original Type 61 was not even equipped with machine guns. It wasn't until the 08th MS Team that they were upgraded from "pretty damn bad" to "sorta respectable".
IGLOO 2 made a pretty decent effort to make the Type 61 more respectable, given its origins in a 70s cartoon. Same with the Magella Eins, though that's a whole new design.
Stark wrote:I actually think the Magella is a fascinating tank design from people used to low-gravity environments who were workign with high-agility mobile suits at the same time. It's like a spaceship .... tank... hover... capsule.
Except, of course, the Magella was deployed on Earth.
A simplified tank design, with just the 175mm gun on a standard turret with a lower profile, would be a much scarier beast.
One thing I didn't understand about the original show was the purpose of the Core Fighter: was it an escape pod, an actual fighter, a method for stowing the Gundam, or a recce craft for sneaking about, then forming up again into the Gundam?
Also, something I often had arguments with my friend about: was the original intent of the Gundam to kill Zakus, or to conduct deep operations against Zeon factories, shipyards, mining centres, colonies etc ?
Zinegata wrote:
Noris heard Shiro declaring his love for Aina. No matter how loudly Shiro shouts, that's gotta be carried over a radio to be heard .
That being said, there is absolutely no reason for Noris to let his own words be heard by the enemy. The 08th MS Team certainly don't react as though they heard anything from the Noris, specifically. Noris was probably just monitoring the enemy radio chatter. And when Shiro rebooted his MS, his radio was probably set to broadcast out on an open channel where everyone could hear it.
Personally, my reaction to that scene was "Okay Shiro. You just broadcast your love for an enemy over an open channel. You are so getting court-martialed if you survive this "
Right, I was including Shiro in that statement too.
Stark wrote:In IGLOO they often do seem to be speaking over speakers, and don't seem to have a button they press first. Is that normal or another IGLOO-ism?
That's normal. Really, it's kind of hard to tell sometimes in Gundam whether somebody's talking to themselves in the cockpit, using a loudspeaker, or using radio/laser comm. Sometimes a pilot will be thinking aloud, then suddenly shout something and the other guy will react to the shout as if that was the only thing he said.
Bottlestein wrote:
One thing I didn't understand about the original show was the purpose of the Core Fighter: was it an escape pod, an actual fighter, a method for stowing the Gundam, or a recce craft for sneaking about, then forming up again into the Gundam?
Also, something I often had arguments with my friend about: was the original intent of the Gundam to kill Zakus, or to conduct deep operations against Zeon factories, shipyards, mining centres, colonies etc ?
The Core Fighter was meant to get the valuable test data and (somewhat) valuable test pilot away from the Gundam in case things went south. The Gundam was always stored in its complete form, so it wasn't that. The White Base was in a unique position because they had to make do with all the stuff they got from Side 7; I'm guessing Ryu Jose's Core Fighter was a spare from one of the other Gundams that got blown up. Amuro also used the Core Fighter for sneaky business a few times, but that was a non-standard use. They just didn't have anything else.
Also, yes, the Gundam was meant to kill Zakus. The original intent of the V Project was that the Guncannon and Guntank would provide fire support while the Gundam moved in and took out the enemy MS. Remember, the Feddies were scared shitless by the Mobile Suit and finding a counter for the Zaku was their top priority.
Zinegata wrote:Except, of course, the Magella was deployed on Earth.
A simplified tank design, with just the 175mm gun on a standard turret with a lower profile, would be a much scarier beast.
They had those too. It's just neat to think that to spacenoids the wierd shit a Magella had was seen as an advantage (like the flying turret of useless-in-a-gravity-well, etc).
The upgunned Type 61 demonstrates the tank can work fine with a driver and commander/gunner (although situational awareness suffers). That should mean they can make a Russian-style low-profile tank with the largest possible gun... like the crouched RTX-440 (which shoudl just have the arms removed and be locked in crouch).
They kinda have a Western Allies/NATO thing going on though.
The suit used by Char at the end of Char's Counterattack - was there any mass production version planned for that?
Not that I can see. You could probably argue that the MSN-06S Sinanju in Unicorn is it's offspring though. Anaheim Electronics has the budget to design mecha F22s and stuff them in the faction appropriate catalogue though. "Hrm, would you look at that, Anaheim is still designing the pilot's seat in their fancy red MS to specifically accommodate my ass, and I'm officially dead." :p
In IGLOO they often do seem to be speaking over speakers, and don't seem to have a button they press first. Is that normal or another IGLOO-ism?
Voting Igloo-ism, just like kicking 50+ ton MBTs and sending them flying with a 60 ton mech.
That being said, Type 61s enmasse defeated Zakus enmasse (See Operation Odessa). So they're far from useless, albeit they also had support from massive airpower.
I'm saying that early war the Federation was ill prepared and couldn't do shit thus the 61's effectiveness was rather limited at the time.
After that... who knows. The Federation took over Zeon production facilities after the war and produced a few new MS that bear resemblance to the Gelgoog, but we can't really say if this was the original intent of the Zeon designers. Assuming they had plans - Zeon isn't exactly known for smooth, long-term MS development plans.
It's a well known fact that after the war Zeonic Industries, the designers/producers of most Zeon mobile suits, were bought out by Luna based Anaheim Electronics and built every Zeon faction (And basically every other faction) MS that they could get paid for, that wasn't being exclusively built by Axis. But there's doesn't appear to be a Gelgoog successor.
I actually think the Magella is a fascinating tank design from people used to low-gravity environments who were workign with high-agility mobile suits at the same time. It's like a spaceship .... tank... hover... capsule.
I recall a piece of artwork featuring Magellas on what appears to be the moon, probably making the fighter turret much more plausible. Problem is that Magellas run on an ICE...can't remember if their turrets were jet or rocket powered...
A simplified tank design, with just the 175mm gun on a standard turret with a lower profile, would be a much scarier beast.
Given it's size you could and should do much more. Like my pic: Monoeye sensor, [implied]heavier armor, lower turret, pilot buried under it all, MS grade fire control systems, etc.
One thing I didn't understand about the original show was the purpose of the Core Fighter: was it an escape pod, an actual fighter, a method for stowing the Gundam, or a recce craft for sneaking about, then forming up again into the Gundam?
It's purpose was mostly to save the recorded data.
Also, something I often had arguments with my friend about: was the original intent of the Gundam to kill Zakus, or to conduct deep operations against Zeon factories, shipyards, mining centres, colonies etc ?
One thing I didn't understand about the original show was the purpose of the Core Fighter: was it an escape pod, an actual fighter, a method for stowing the Gundam, or a recce craft for sneaking about, then forming up again into the Gundam?
Also, something I often had arguments with my friend about: was the original intent of the Gundam to kill Zakus, or to conduct deep operations against Zeon factories, shipyards, mining centres, colonies etc ?
It's primary purpose of the Gundam was to gather data for GM production...it's secondary purpose was to distract Zeon from Jaburo, where they were actually building a war winning force. Spoiler
The various Pegasus Class carriers have been referred to as "Trojan Horse" and if I'm not mistaken there is also reference to an "Operation Troy". Aside from coincidentally helping knock off Garma, and ferrying an exceptionally skilled Newtype into the arms of the Federation's Supreme Commander, the White Base and Gundam were completely and utterly irrelevant.
Bottlestein wrote:Not having seen all of Zeta - what did Zeon have planned after Gelgoog Jaegers? They have quite a good ability to tack on updates as the suits are being mass produced. The suit used by Char at the end of Char's Counterattack - was there any mass production version planned for that?
Edit window expired. Bleh.
At the end of the war, Zeon had several things on paper that would have succeeded the Gelgoog. The MS-19 Dolmel (appeared in a video game, so who knows whether its canon or not) was going to be its direct replacement. There was also the "X-Series", which the Titans would put into production as the Xeku-Eins/etc.
The Sazabi was pretty much designed and built for Char's exclusive use. As far as I know it was just Char using his position to get a MS built exactly the way he wanted it.
Bottlestein wrote:Not having seen all of Zeta - what did Zeon have planned after Gelgoog Jaegers?
No, they didn't have time to plan an actualy replacement, just concepts the EFF and Titans Test Team hashed out later. After the war they were left with surplus OYW MS that were often refitted, with the Mars Zeon/Pldsmobile Army using MS-06 Zakus as late as UC 0111. Their first MP MS after that was from the Axis Remnants that used the AMX-003 Gaza-C and according to Revival of Zeon they also made use of RMS-106 Hi-Zacks which they retyped as the MS-106 and the RMS-108 Marasai as the MS-108 Marasai. During the events of Double Zeta they made use of the AMX-006Gaza-D, the AMX-008 Ga-Zowmn, the AMX-009 Dreissen, the AMX-011 Zaku III, the AMX-014 Dooben-Wolf, the AMX-015 Geymalk, AMX-004G Qubeley MP Type.
The suit used by Char at the end of Char's Counterattack - was there any mass production version planned for that?
The Sazabi? Only a limited production commanders MS, it lacked any of the Sazabi's really good stuff.
Ergh, before we start mentioning every MS in the Neo-Zeon and Titans arsenal, it's worth noting the Gelgoog's spiritual successor (in Earth Federation/Titans colors) was actually the Galbady. It's basically a Federation high-performance MS that was based largely off captured Zeon late-war tech.
Bottlestein wrote:One thing I didn't understand about the original show was the purpose of the Core Fighter: was it an escape pod, an actual fighter, a method for stowing the Gundam, or a recce craft for sneaking about, then forming up again into the Gundam?
It's probably more of an escape pod. That's what saves Amuro's life at A Bao A Qu.
Also, something I often had arguments with my friend about: was the original intent of the Gundam to kill Zakus, or to conduct deep operations against Zeon factories, shipyards, mining centres, colonies etc ?
The orginal intent of the Federation was to literally build hundreds of copies of the Gundam to counter (and massacre) the Zeon Zakus. It turned out though, that the Gundam (with a Pegasus-class carrer) was a superb raiding force especially on Earth. Amuro's OYW kill count has often been put at around 60, mostly Mobile Suits destroyed in small engagements involving less than 10 MS on both sides. That's about half of an entire Terrestrial Mobile Division destroyed by one machine.
With the combat data they got however, it seems some elements of the original Gundam's design were dropped for the GM. Luna Titanium was probably deleted due to expense and the proliferation of heavy anti-MS weapons that could penetrate Luna-Titanium armor anyway (i.e. the Magella 175mm). The beam rifle was given up in favor of a beam spray gun for close-quarters fighting, and each GM was instead given at around 2 Balls as backup instead.
However, the Gundam's success at raiding nonetheless spurred the development of the GM Sniper Custom and the GM Light Armor. Most of these specialized and high-performance GMs (50-odd) were deployed in guerilla actions - mainly against Zeon factories operating out of the occupied and depopulated Sides. These units were manned mainly by former ace pilots though... indicating that this may have been an outgrowth of the Gundam's success as opposed to an original requirement.
Bakustra wrote:I'm not sure where the asteroid calcs fit in, unless this is your personal crusade against firepower figures in Star Wars coming to the front again, because, if so, ugh.
The biggest thing that jumped out at me when I reviewed that page this morning was the random significant figures. Some, sensibly, used just one. But many of the numbers used three sig figs, off a scaling of a low res screenshot and many, many assumptions. That's madness.
Assume the asteroids are solid iron.
Assume the distance from the camera is X.
Use that assumption, along with grainy pixel counts and more size and distance assumptions to scale and get a diameter. Ignore uncertainty in these calculations.
Assume it is spherical.
Assume its temperature is Y.
Assume 100% of it is vaporized.
Count the frames to get a time elapsed. Ignore uncertainty in this calculation.
Using all this, calculate firepower. Give the value to a high precision. Call this a "lower limit" based on even more assumptions.
There's all of three emperical observations: a pixel count, a frame count, and the rough color of the asteroid given. But, from that, they deduce pages of "data".
Well, thank you for making your objections known. I can't really find a lot of fault with them.
And, the imporant one: ignore inconsistencies and that stupid idea of repeatability while making wild extrapolations, but of course, only when it suits you to. If light turbolasers are so incredibly powerful, and the shields shrug them off, why are they concerned about asteroids at all? Why is that one ship lost? Oh, I'm sorry, why does that one ship suffer a minor and temporary loss of communications?
I take it that you object to the momentum-transfer rationalization? This I cannot really find fault with, I am afraid, except for it being ad hoc. In any case, the problem is that other things become inconsistent if we take the asteroid as being the mighty slayer of Star Destroyers: (even assuming, as I guess you would prefer, that we throw out any secondary material whatsoever) why do their reactors produce so much more power than they need if we scale from the Death Star? If we decide that their reactors don't scale with the Death Star, that leaves us with the mystery of how the Death Star is so much more efficient than regular warships (technically, the figures in the ICS tech-books are based on the assumption that the Death Star trades safety for efficiency and is an order of magnitude or so more efficient than warships, but is vulnerable to exploding. Nifty trivia, wouldn't you say?)?
If we assume that the acceleration and engines take up the vast majority of that, then we still have the problem of waste heat: a Star Destroyer's reactor, assuming that it scales roughly linearly with the Death Star reactor, would produce power in the e24-e25 W range. (DS can generate ~e38J/day (86,400s) for a power output of ~e33W. DS is a spheroid with a 160km diameter, volume of ~2e16 m^3. Star Destroyer is [w/o bridge tower] a rough pyramid with height ~1600m, and base diagonals of ~1100m and ~300 m. Volume is then 2.6e8 m^3. Size differs by a factor of about ~7.9e7, so reactor output would then be ~1.3e25W) Assuming that SW has an efficiency of 99.9%, then the Star Destroyer still has to remove ~e22W of power, or ~e22J/s, or about 180 million Hiroshimas every second, or alternately 2 million Ivy-Mike tests every second. Ludicrous in the extreme, and besides, perhaps the Death Star uses more of its volume for reaction than a warship.
Let's say that it devotes 100 times as much space, arbitrarily. This lowers the problem of waste heat down to a mere 1.7 million Hiroshimas every second (~e20W). So let's set a goal of only one Hiroshima every second in waste heat for the poor Star Destroyer to deal with, so that we can still remain in the comfortable rapids of insanity, but take comfort that at least it's not the waterfalls of insanity. This gives us a maximum of ~7e13 W of waste heat. This requires that the Star Destroyer use ~170 billion times less space for its reactor than the Death Star. Assuming that the Death Star is 100 percent reactor, this still leaves the Star Destroyer with a spherical reactor 7 cm in diameter. This raises questions, to say the least. The foremost is the question of why their waste heat system can deal with obscene amounts of energy, many orders of magnitude above what their weapons output, and why they don't build lasers using those heat conduits and use them to fry stuff.
Ultimately, the asteroid scene creates an inconsistency, and a lesser man might be tempted to dismiss it outright. But I prefer the idea that the shields used in Star Wars are optimized against things like turbolasers and ion cannons, but not physical impacts, leading to unfortunate collisions, accidents, and deaths in asteroid fields. Perhaps the asteroids should have concerned them. Thoughts?
The big picture is "Alderaan shot by Death Star -> Alderaan explodes like a bomb", and there's no conflict with Dr. Saxton's figures.
Those are in much better shape, seeing how it comes directly off the original observation. The steps there are:
Watch Alderaan violently blow up.
Assume it is Earth like.
Calculate the binding energy, call it a lower limit based on the observed speed.
They also use a sensible sigfig count - two for the directly calculated one, and down to just one when he tries to scale average speed from pixel and frame counts.
I have a hard time attacking the Death Star; Alderaan was a big deal of the film and the number follows pretty directly from it. The asteroids, though, are a tiny side thing that took up mere seconds of screen time, and the process from observation to final number is incredibly lossy.
No disagreements here, then.
Invited by the new age, the elegant Sailor Neptune!
I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
Was the GM (In the original series) actually the mass production version of the RX-78 Gundam?
I guess I'll have to watch the Jaburo arc again - I thought that when White Base got to Jaburo the first production batch of GM's were already operational. I thought the production variants of the Gundam were the suits in 08th MS Team. At any rate, besides the Luna Titanium, was there anything really that great about the RX-78 that would see mass production? As far as I recall, the powerplant would be improved after OYW, and the Gundam MKII, which was produced in numbers, had very little commonality with the RX-78.
Bottlestein wrote:Was the GM (In the original series) actually the mass production version of the RX-78 Gundam?
Essentially yes. Some sources even say the GM stands for Gundam Massproduced.
I guess I'll have to watch the Jaburo arc again - I thought that when White Base got to Jaburo the first production batch of GM's were already operational.
Jaburo didn't get the Gundam's combat data when the Gundam arrived. They got it well before that.
The Gundam's combat data was recovered shortly after they landed on Earth (specifically, I believe it was when they were resupplied after landing in North America). The Gundam was then sent to fight a series of battles - including Operation Odessa - before they were directed to Jaburo. By that time,the combat data had already been put to use and the first batch of RGM-79s wee operational.
I thought the production variants of the Gundam were the suits in 08th MS Team. At any rate, besides the Luna Titanium, was there anything really that great about the RX-78 that would see mass production? As far as I recall, the powerplant would be improved after OYW, and the Gundam MKII, which was produced in numbers, had very little commonality with the RX-78.
The RX-79[G]s were built out of spare parts from Project V. They weren't "variants" of the Gundam. They were an idea born of desperation given form .
There was, however, a series of Gundam variants from the MSV kits that were said to be built at Jaburo. Note that the Gundam is the RX-78-2. Apparently, there were at least seven units in this series (RX-78-1 thru RX-78-7), some of which were lost at Side 7, but many others were retained in Jaburo for further testing (possibly for ground combat).
The real hallmarks of the Gundam are the Luna Titanium Armor, the compact beam rifle, and the beam saber. The latter two, in particular, would equip pretty much every MS from 0087 onwards.
However, as I said the Gundam itsef was a terribly conventional design from a pure MS standpoint.
Also... The Mk II was a testbed for the moveable frame concept (only 3 of which were built) which was an entirely different way of building Mobile Suits (and was adopted by most other MS afterwards). However, the Mk II itself was horribly conventional in terms of armor and weaponry - Franklin Bidan, the Mk II's lead designer, actually thought the Anaheim Rick Dias (with its Gundarium Gamma) was a superior combat design and tried to steal one.
Bakustra wrote:I take it that you object to the momentum-transfer rationalization?
Eh, I haven't really thought that much about it (aside from attacking the firepower number that comes up so often). My position is "relax, its just a movie".
No problem.
If we decide that their reactors don't scale with the Death Star, that leaves us with the mystery of how the Death Star is so much more efficient than regular warships
Maybe its output scales in some form other than linearly with volume. Perhaps it is called "hypermatter" because it exists in an additional dimension, so its capabilities scale with the square of volume.
(DS [...] power output of ~e33W [...] Size differs by a factor of about ~7.9e7
Let's square that and see where we end up: 1.6e17 W. That's closer to the ballpark of the "observed" values for star destroyers (assuming for a second we all just accept the main site's numbers - this is higher than the given asteroid numbers, and in the area - 100x smaller - than the sites BDZ number. But Mike assumes 1 hour for no good reason (he says "otherwise people would escape", but that's quite poor. People could escape in one hour perfectly well, and if they want to prevent that, they can blockade anyway). If we figure he is wrong - perhaps the BDZ takes all day, then we get within one order of magnitude. He also, quite arbitrarily, assumes melting one meter of the surface around the whole thing. Maybe they do less, except on hard targets? There's not enough information.)
But, scaling with the square of volume is pretty close. Do you have numbers on smaller ships? Two points isn't enough to call a curve.
Not particularly good ones, but I'll see what I can ballpark. The Corvette I'm estimating at 2.3e5 m^3. The Winged Mon Calamari Cruiser I estimated to be 4.4e7 m^3, and the Wingless 4.2e7 m^3. The Home One I estimated at 2.2e9 m^3. The Executor... I'll need a little bit of time for that one. But that gives us a range of a few ships.
The squares then fall into the range of 5.3e10 for the Corvette to 4.8e18 for the Home One. The determined power outputs would be:
Corvette: 1.3e11W
Mon Cal Winged: 4.8e15W
Mon Cal Wingless: 4.5e15W
Home One: 1.2e19W
Using this method. When it comes to Base Delta Zero, all we know is that: it renders the planet useless, boils away the oceans, and in one case left the targeted planet without an atmosphere. We also know that it is traditionally done with multiple ships to prevent survivors or escapees, but little about the estimated time.
This brings me back to my big beef with the main site btw: it starts with assumptions and extrapolates from that in a lot of cases. It doesn't even try to figure curves from original numbers, but instead always goes the other way around. That'd be good if it was real science, but it isn't, we really know nothing about it at all.
But I prefer the idea that the shields used in Star Wars are optimized against things like turbolasers and ion cannons, but not physical impacts, leading to unfortunate collisions, accidents, and deaths in asteroid fields. Perhaps the asteroids should have concerned them. Thoughts?
Meh, it works, but you have to wonder why they don't use small asteroids as weapons. Maybe Star Wars militaries are terminally retarded. Next thing, they'll be taking the trigger guards off!
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Well, consider how much space you'd need to devote to asteroid storage, as compared to already-existing weapons. That would probably make any bureaucrat's throat tighten at the thought, and then you add the relative inefficiency of the weapon (consider that they spent hours before losing a ship) and economic concerns win out over gross military efficiency. Amusingly, the Han Solo Adventures feature detachable trigger guards on Han's blaster. I think it may be too late on that end.
Invited by the new age, the elegant Sailor Neptune!
I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
Stark wrote:See guys? A guy missing at literally 20m against stationary targets is totally fine if another guy scores a minor hit (ps the arm has a cavity there, oops). That's cause Btech is just better.
Except that we can see molten metal flying off of the impact site and the other suit's shot missing is likely due to it snapping off a shot just after it was hit. That's how I see it anyway.
Besides, it's still better than sub 100m/s cannon rounds and 100mm and 75mm rounds not doing fuck all to buildings.
In 1993, T-80 tanks armed with 125mm guns fired ten fragmenting-high explosive (frag-HE) and two sub-caliber armor-piercing (AP) rounds, likely tungsten or depleted uranium sabots, into the Russian Parliament building. Which you'll notice is still standing.
Go on youtube and look up footage of Abrams tanks firing on buildings in Iraq. Notice the 120mm gun, while it does a great job shooting through buildings, doesn't do much towards knocking them down or blowing them to smithereens. Especially if, instead of frag-HE or shaped-charge high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds, they use an AP round instead, which just punches a tiny hole (kind of the entire point, really, which is why they suck for anti-building use.).
Now, ask yourself why a 75mm gun, probably firing tungsten or DU armor-piercing sabots since those would be best against giant, armored robots (or tanks), would obliterate a building when 120mm and 125mm guns can't do it even with multiple hits?
As for the Battletech pic, not only is the one guy missing his target completely, but the other guy just barely manages to tag one arm instead of, you know, aiming for center mass like any reasonable person would. Possibly because he's an IS pilot and his aim sucks. Without introducing jamming to the equation.
SAMAS wrote:I think we've gotten a little off-topic...
I'll try to nudge us back
Do you think beam sabers will become a standard weapon in this scenario? Zeon will no longer be facing suits that wield them, and against battlemechs, slicing off the arms does not mean the mech can't use its weapons. The beam energy could still be useful in a direct shot against the cockpit, but the length requirement of the "blade" has changed now. Additionally, the enemy now includes elementals. Will the reactors, once they have been upgraded to "Gelgoog" specs be used more in the direction of anti -infantry beam weapons? Instead of beam sabers, will they go with a forearm-mounted multi-directional "beam dagger" for anti-cockpit attacks?
SAMAS wrote:I think we've gotten a little off-topic...
I'll try to nudge us back
Do you think beam sabers will become a standard weapon in this scenario? Zeon will no longer be facing suits that wield them, and against battlemechs, slicing off the arms does not mean the mech can't use its weapons. The beam energy could still be useful in a direct shot against the cockpit, but the length requirement of the "blade" has changed now. Additionally, the enemy now includes elementals. Will the reactors, once they have been upgraded to "Gelgoog" specs be used more in the direction of anti -infantry beam weapons? Instead of beam sabers, will they go with a forearm-mounted multi-directional "beam dagger" for anti-cockpit attacks?
Why wouldn't you want to equip your Mobile Suits with a lethal melee weapon, which Battlemechs are completely defenseless against?
The beam sabre is super-heated plasma which can pretty much cut through most armor (including battleship plate) like butter. The only defense against a beam sabre is, in fact, another beam sabre - as shields and armor eventually burn up in the face of this weapon.
It's worth noting that the beam sabre was probably an absolute terror for most Zeon pilots during the OYW. The majority of them only had heat weapons - which often broke against the beam sabre - giving the GMs a huge advantage. It'd be like pitting a guy with a wooden sword against a guy with a metal sword.
You don't even need to make the beam sabre into a dagger. Simply thrust beam sabre into cockpit. It's a pointy weapon too, not just slashy.
Considering that beam sabers are frequently used to chop mobile suits in half (a good example of this is the end of the oft-discussed Norris Packard clip), I highly doubt BattleMechs will be any more resistant. Why worry about a cockpit hit when you can just as easily chop at the center of mass and score a kill?
Bottlestein wrote:Zeon will no longer be facing suits that wield them, and against battlemechs, slicing off the arms does not mean the mech can't use its weapons.
What? I seriously cannot think of any Battlemech which does have weapons mounted on the arm. I mean, yeah, If you cut off a Timber Wolf's arms it will still have its missile pods, but it's not like if you cut off a Gelgoog's arms it will be weaponless - they have head mounted guns just like the RX-78. In any case the main use of beam sabers, and things like heathawks and heat sabers, is for outright killing an enemy mobile suit in one blow. The preferred method is cutting an enemy MS in half (which can be done with a heat saber), stabbing into the cockpit or otherwise going for the main sensors in the head. They don't aim for the limbs, it just so happens that if you lose a limb in a mobile suit you can basically keep fighting, so fight choreography reflects that to make fights exciting. Mobile suits can often keep fighting without a head, though at some level of reduced capability.
Ford Prefect wrote:I mean, yeah, If you cut off a Timber Wolf's arms it will still have its missile pods, but it's not like if you cut off a Gelgoog's arms it will be weaponless - they have head mounted guns just like the RX-78.
Only the Jager and Marine Commander have head vulcans.
That still doesn't change a whole lot since the RX-78 can hurl a Zaku II twice the height of the Zaku.
