Zeon as a power in the Battletech Universe

[lord Martiya]

[quote="Ford Prefect"]Mobile suits can often keep fighting without a head, though at some level of reduced capability./quote]
The head main (and often only) function is housing the main camera. Without it, almost all mobile suits will remain combat capable in a reduced capability, the only exceptions being those suits whose head actually houses the cockpit (as with the Jeong, whose head was a combat-capable escape pod).

[Zinegata]

Head vulcans aren't entirely useless. They are effective suppression tools against MS, and can be deadly against most other light vehicles. Since the vulcans are aimed in the same direction as the main camera is, you can often fire the weapon as soon as you spot an enemy.

Also, while most Zakus were not equipped with head vulcans, some Zakus had been converted to equip them during the OYW mainly for early war AA use. Garma Zabi was one such user of a Zaku II with head vulcans.

[Ford Prefect]

The head main (and often only) function is housing the main camera. Without it, almost all mobile suits will remain combat capable in a reduced capability, the only exceptions being those suits whose head actually houses the cockpit (as with the Jeong, whose head was a combat-capable escape pod).

I mean, when the Gundam got decapitated at A Baoa Qu, Amuro was still able to set it to do LAST SHOOTING autonomously, which is pretty impressive.

[Balrog]

I've been busy lately, hence the late replies, so apologies since we've kinda moved beyond the "lol u sh0ot worst th4n stormtrooperz!" crap, though in truth this has more to do with Minovsky jamming and sensors.

I dunno, why wouldn't she be using an IR sensor in an environment that jams IR sensors?

I really can't believe how often this needs to be pointed out.

Maybe this will help. Whilst visual magnification and IR are better than sonar or radar when in an area saturated by Minovsky Particles, it can still be jammed.

In this particular case the Federation was attacking a Zeon base with Guntanks while the 08th MS covered them. Meanwhile Norris Packard was creating a diversion and stalling so that a Zanzibar-class Cruiser loaded with injured soldiers, technicians, and supplies could retreat from Earth while simultaneously attempting to get the work finished on a prototype mobile armor designed to shoot through mountains; this was not a small base, it was simultaneously a logistics depot, testing facility, and orbital launch facility built into a mountain or possibly a string of mountains, I can't remember the specifics. In such situations they're going to be throwing out as many Minovsky Particles as they can to stop the EFF from being able to effectively engage the defenses of the base.

As an aside all sides failed in their objective, the Guntanks were destroyed by Norris and the Apsalus destroyed the Kojima Battalion's Big Tray-class Land Battleship and thus the Battalion Command. The Zanzibar was shot in flight by, IIRC, a special model of the RGM-79[G] with a beam sniper rifle connected to an external generator and the Apsalus was destroyed by the 08th MS Team's squad leader.

It should be noted that it's not IR, it's light magnification and those heat sources were beam weapons that cut through even the largest ships like butter. You can obviously make out that something is there, but you can't tell what it is just by looking, it could be friend or foe, it could be an entire wing of enemy fighters, if you're wrong though it could be a friendly wing, who knows? That's why identifying enemies requires you to be close up and why you want distinctive colors on your MS.

Alright, but that still doesn't entirely answer the original question. I refer again to the posted pic showing IR imaging being affected by jamming: while you could not distinguish what those heat sources were, you could still see that there was something there generating heat. If that was the level of jamming being emitted by the Zanzibar to cover its retreat, they still should've been able to see the enemy Mobile Suit through the dust and debris it used as concealment. The place looked abandoned, no working generators or anything, so there would hardly be that many artificial sources of heat to mask its approach; there weren't any fires to do the same either; there was only the one enemy unit to keep track of, and a limited number of friendlies with known positions, so there wouldn't be many opportunities for misidentification and friendly fire. Unfortunately they don't say in the clip just how bad the jamming was, and we only have assumptions to go off in this case; we only know it wasn't so bad that it was affecting visible light, since there wasn't any evidence of any visual "haze" and whatnot.

[Vendetta]

Considering that beam sabers are frequently used to chop mobile suits in half (a good example of this is the end of the oft-discussed Norris Packard clip), I highly doubt BattleMechs will be any more resistant. Why worry about a cockpit hit when you can just as easily chop at the center of mass and score a kill?

Chopping a Zaku in half is literally the first thing we see the Gundam do in a fight. Stabbing another one through the cockpit is the very next thing it does.

It's fair to say that whatever it's fighting against, if a beam sabre will cut it at all, that's what'll happen to it.

[lord Martiya]

It's fair to say that whatever it's fighting against, if a beam sabre will cut it at all, that's what'll happen to it.

Amuro destroyed a Chivvay-class heavy cruiser with that thing. I dare say that if it hits your armor, you're cut.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Alright, but that still doesn't entirely answer the original question. I refer again to the posted pic showing IR imaging

It should be noted that it's not IR, it's light magnification and those heat sources were beam weapons that cut through even the largest ships like butter.

being affected by jamming: while you could not distinguish what those heat sources were, you could still see that there was something there generating heat. If that was the level of jamming being emitted by the Zanzibar to cover its retreat, they still should've been able to see the enemy Mobile Suit through the dust and debris it used as concealment. The place looked abandoned, no working generators or anything, so there would hardly be that many artificial sources of heat to mask its approach; there weren't any fires to do the same either; there was only the one enemy unit to keep track of, and a limited number of friendlies with known positions, so there wouldn't be many opportunities for misidentification and friendly fire.

God damnit you just don't fucking read do you? We already fucking covered this.

Unfortunately they don't say in the clip just how bad the jamming was, and we only have assumptions to go off in this case; we only know it wasn't so bad that it was affecting visible light, since there wasn't any evidence of any visual "haze" and whatnot.

And we saw in MS IGLOO shots where you could clearly make out Musais, but the light magnification image showed there was. It is not my responsibility to show that Zeon were using a standard strategy that had become the de facto primary method of waging combat.

[Bottlestein]

About my question regarding beam sabers:

I thought Zeon before OYW didn't have beam sabers on the suits. They had the technology, obviously - they deployed production suits with beam sabers within a year, as we saw. However, I thought they only added beam sabers to suits after Amuro and the GM's success with the weapon.

In this scenario, the Zaku's have heathawks and the Rick Dom's have their heat melee weapon, both of which will be effective against battlemechs. Also, the reactor / internal plasma recharger/ whatever, will be upgraded so that the suit can carry/ recharge beam sabers (since the technology required to do this was being researched by Zeon before OYW). My question was more along the lines of, will this excess weapons capacity be developed into a "saber" or some other plasma-based weapon (beam "lance", beam "dagger"...)?

[lord Martiya]

I thought Zeon before OYW didn't have beam sabers on the suits. They had the technology, obviously - they deployed production suits with beam sabers within a year, as we saw. However, I thought they only added beam sabers to suits after Amuro and the GM's success with the weapon.

Zeon didn't add the beam sabers to suits in response to Amuro, they were already developing the technology (Char's reports about the Gundam having hand-held beam weapons merely moved up the timetable). Still, Zeon was already about its deployment, and would deploy the beam saber-equipped Gelgoog at the end of the war.

[Sinanju]

I don't really see the advantage of a beam dagger vs. a saber. The dagger's shorter length means it would do less damage (because it couldn't go all the way through a mobile suit/BattleMech's torso in a single swing) and would probably be harder to hit with (you'd most likely be stabbing with it, which requires a bit more precision).

I'm pretty sure beam sabers would develop the way they did during the OYW, because I don't see how changing them up would be an advantage in the Inner Sphere.

[Bottlestein]

^ Beam "dagger" was poor word choice on my part -sorry.

I found the thing to illustrate what I had in mind though: From Gundam Unicorn there's the black/gold unit - I think its the "Banshee". On its right fore-arm (maybe left as well) there's a mounted beam saber. That is, the hilt and emitter fold out during use, but it does not look as though the hilt ever detaches from the arm socket. The arm itself is not much more bulky; the recharge mechanism and socket add an armored "bulge" to the fore-arm. My idea was to have one of these, but also allow the blade length to be variable.

Then, to balance the weight on the other fore-arm, mount something that can push an E-pac into the "magazine well" of the mobile suit's beam gun, if the gun is held in the other hand and rested across the torso with the "receiver front" on the fore-arm. This way, the suit can have a beam saber deployed without throwing away its main gun and it can carry a shield while reloading.

Its true that a handheld saber could be used more dexterously, so maybe this system won't be used after all. However, I thought that this would be a good developement against battlemechs.

(To reload the bazooka in this way would be difficult, since I think the magazine is elsewhere, but for the rifles, I think its okay).

[Ford Prefect]

I found the thing to illustrate what I had in mind though: From Gundam Unicorn there's the black/gold unit - I think its the "Banshee". On its right fore-arm (maybe left as well) there's a mounted beam saber. That is, the hilt and emitter fold out during use, but it does not look as though the hilt ever detaches from the arm socket.

The beam sabers are removable from the arm mounts. They're not built into the arm. The Sinanju has beam sabers in the same location as well and can activate them while they're still docked, but can eject them when necessary.

[Ritterin Sophia]

So in effect oversized beam katars?

[Zinegata]

Beam sabres weren't an "off the shelf" technology for Zeon - no evidence exists they were actively developing it prior to the Gundam showing up, and it's often stated that they would have given their Doms, Goufs, and Zaku IIs beam sabers if they could. The problem is, none of these MS generated the power needed by a beam sabre.

That being said, Zeon had already deveoped very advanced I-Fields by this point - ones big enough to fully protect a Mobile Armor from all incoming beam fire. Since the Beam Sabre is really little more than an I-field housing super heated plasma, there shouldn't be a reason why Zeon couldn't have developed their own beam sabres rather quickly.

Same for the beam rifle. The Gundam has a beam rifle not because it has a battleship-grade reactor fitted into an MS (albeit the reactor is more powerful than a Zaku). The Gundam has a beam rifle because the Federation figured out there is such a thing called a "battery" .

[Zinegata]

In this scenario, the Zaku's have heathawks and the Rick Dom's have their heat melee weapon, both of which will be effective against battlemechs. Also, the reactor / internal plasma recharger/ whatever, will be upgraded so that the suit can carry/ recharge beam sabers (since the technology required to do this was being researched by Zeon before OYW). My question was more along the lines of, will this excess weapons capacity be developed into a "saber" or some other plasma-based weapon (beam "lance", beam "dagger"...)?

I-fields are extremely flexible. You can create one that's the shape of a sword, axe, or whatever. So it's perfectly possible to get a whole medieval arsenal based out of beam-sabre technology.

In fact, beam sabres are so versatile that the next (and arguably final) technology added to the Gundam mix is just an outgrowth of beam sabre technology. In UC 120 the first beam shields are introduced - which can deflect both beam fire and solid rounds. However these shields are really just beam sabres molded into the shape of a shield. In fact, in Victory Gundam battleship-sized shields are available, and they can be converted into a giant laser sword when things turn grim and the Captain decides to do a ramming attack .

[Bottlestein]

Beam sabres weren't an "off the shelf" technology for Zeon - no evidence exists they were actively developing it prior to the Gundam showing up, and it's often stated that they would have given their Doms, Goufs, and Zaku IIs beam sabers if they could. The problem is, none of these MS generated the power needed by a beam sabre.

That being said, Zeon had already deveoped very advanced I-Fields by this point - ones big enough to fully protect a Mobile Armor from all incoming beam fire. Since the Beam Sabre is really little more than an I-field housing super heated plasma, there shouldn't be a reason why Zeon couldn't have developed their own beam sabres rather quickly.

Same for the beam rifle. The Gundam has a beam rifle not because it has a battleship-grade reactor fitted into an MS (albeit the reactor is more powerful than a Zaku). The Gundam has a beam rifle because the Federation figured out there is such a thing called a "battery" .

I'm a bit sketchy on Zeon developements: I thought the reactor for the Gelgoog (which is battleship-grade and comparable to RX-78's) was already prototyped by the start of OYW. I thought that they only needed the time to finish mass production facilities for the reactor. Similarly, I thought they had prototype beam sabers ready, only the mass production facilities for the emitters kept them from deployment.

[Zinegata]

It's a misconception that the Gundam and Gelgoog both have battleship grade reactors. Mobile Suits with battleship-grade reactors honestly don't really start appearing until UC 87+, and are restricted almost exclusive to one-shot monstrosities.

The Gundam has a powerful reactor - more powerful than a Zaku's - but it cannot produce enough power on its own to fire a mega particle beam.

Instead, the Federation used a technology known as "e-caps", which are basically "batteries". Basically, a battleship would use its reactor to charge up a compact beam rifle, filling it with stored energy and M-particles. The Gundam would then use its own power to merely activate this stored energy - which is they Beam Rifles have a limited number of shots. By 0087, this technology is more or less standard kit among all MS, and e-Caps are now easily replaceable mid-battle and resemble ammo magazines.

Also, the Gelgoog wasn't in development since early 0079. What was in development was a series of possible successors to the Zaku - i.e. the MS-06R, all of which were deemed unsuitable for mass-production. The Gelgoog's own lineage wouldn't start until the development of the MS-11, whose development was then scrapped around October due to the appearance of the Gundam.

It was around this time that the Rick Dom was introduced as a stop-gap, while Zeonic and Zimmand submitted competing designs for the "Next Generation" MS with beam rifle and beam sabre. Zimmand produced the Gyan. Zeonic produced the Gelgoog. The latter won the contract and was produced in sufficient numbers to get themselves massacred at A Bao A Qu due to insufficient pilot training time.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Mobile Suits with battleship-grade reactors honestly don't really start appearing until UC 87+, and are restricted almost exclusive to one-shot monstrosities.

If we're defining 'Warship-grade Reactors' as able to produce Mega Particles independently, then the MSM-03 Gogg, MSM-04 Acguy, MSM-07 Z'Gok, MSM-10 Zock all have them. The caveat is that they require water to help regulate the heat.

[Zinegata]

I was thinkng more along the lines of Psycho Gundam (and many other MA/MS hybrids in Zeta) as battleships can easily support multiple beam weapons firing at a sustained rate without any mitigating factors. Most of these one-off/limited production units in Zeta are specifically noted as not needing e-caps, and yet could fire beams at a very consistent rate.

Most Underwater MS can fire a beam or two with their power, but they can't fire at the same frenetic rate as the Gundam (especially the Gogg).

Also some (if not most) underwater MS use e-cap technology anyway. The Z'gok E (which IS seen firing rapidly) is explicitly stated to have been equipped with e-caps, and earlier Z'goks may have had them as well. It would certainly help explain they were such a terrifying foe both on land and at sea, and why the Federation relied almost exclusively on ASW planes to hunt them ratherthan face them in open battle.

A good baseline as to the power requirements for a mega-particle beam may be the Acguy. It can be equipped with one mega-particle beam, but uses two Zaku reactors for power and propulsion.

[Zinegata]

I just took a look at the power output numbers in MAHQ. A Zaku produces about 1000 KW of power. The Gundam, 1400KW. A Z'gok E however? 2,500

So again, I think it's safe to say that he Gundam, for all its impressive features, had a power output that was pretty puny compared to the possible output of a battleship (which should easily outstrip even the Z'goks output, as Battleships can fire multiple guns)

[Swindle1984]

Ok, the Zaku II is 17.5 meters tall according to official sources.

According to Mechwarrior 3, the Annihilator assault mech is 17 meters tall, and the Dire Wolf is 15.5 meters tall. The Timberwolf (75 tons, compared to a Zaku II's 73-odd tons) is 15 meters tall.

Mechwarrior 4 has different numbers, however. The Dire Wolf is 14.5 meters tall, the Timberwolf is 10.5 meters tall, and the Annihilator isn't present at all.

As for a more official source of mech heights, I found an illustration I had saved on my PC (I don't know which publication it's from though). No numbers, but it does show scale and would be higher in canon than the PC games.



Is this good enough for someone to get a decent scale from so we can determine whether or not mobile suits are "much bigger" than mechs?

[Stark]

I just took a look at the power output numbers in MAHQ. A Zaku produces about 1000 KW of power. The Gundam, 1400KW. A Z'gok E however? 2,500

So again, I think it's safe to say that he Gundam, for all its impressive features, had a power output that was pretty puny compared to the possible output of a battleship (which should easily outstrip even the Z'goks output, as Battleships can fire multiple guns)

The only way this seems to make sense (given the output of weapons etc) is if the rated powerplant output is measured at some part of the robot instead of the engine itself. Maybe that's what they use to drive the legs, or something (even then it seems too low ot be practical).

Swindle, that picture suggests the Banshee is 16-18m tall, which is about the range of mobile suits.

[Batman]

Battletech visuals have always been pretty much useless, at least were mechs are concerned. Have fun trying to make the size of the missile launchers (or autocannon while we're at it) in the pictures jive with the calibres given in the novels leave alone reality.
Let's take that picture of the Grasshopper Swindle posted. You're going to store a 100 LRMs of that size nevermind getting them to the launcher how, exactly?

[Sinanju]

I did a quickie height chart and got a similar result. The Banshee is about eight and a half humans tall, and assuming the human at his feet is of average height (1.8 meters or so) that works out to about 15 meters.

Of course, considering the Banshee is the biggest 'mech on the chart gives me the mental image of Zakus kicking light 'mechs over.

EDIT: The Grasshopper has how many missiles? Stored in the head? Oh, Battletech. You so crazy.

[Zinegata]

The only way this seems to make sense (given the output of weapons etc) is if the rated powerplant output is measured at some part of the robot instead of the engine itself. Maybe that's what they use to drive the legs, or something (even then it seems too low ot be practical).

The thing is, the Mobile Suit's reactor output has nothing to do with the beam weapon output in most cases. Again, remember, the beam rifle actually has a ton of stored energy from a battleship reactor. The Mobile Suit's reactor's job is to just get this stored energy released,.

Also, power output is different from the MS's thrust capability. UC mechs tend to pump propellant directly into the reactor and shoot it out of the thrusters, resulting in an extremely hot and powerful thrust (or so the tech manuals say). The reactor's ability to generate power is thus often unrelated to thrust capability.