Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

Post by LMSx »

have no problem of it coming from the same pool of ideas as Memento, and in fact that's pretty much what I wrote. It's quite common for creative artists to come out with different versions of the same basic theme. For some it's everything they do. However, for me as a viewer it did appear a bit like an action-enhanced version of Memento.
I think the main nub here is that I read
Nolan clearly wanted to go back to those same themes, but since Memento is already done, he had to come up with a slightly different plot for it. Unfortunately he could not come up with such an original idea (which I believe was his brother's anyways) for a second time, so he had to go for a more worn out one.
as implying that Nolan sat down after Memento and hammered out the Inception idea. Chronologically, that's off if he had the story treatment already rattling around his teenage brain. For all we know, Inception could have been the precursor to Memento, with the latter film having the advantage of the Nolans having more experience writing and a smaller budget.
It's funny, because this idea was brought up by random weeks before I even saw Inception and I considered it.
That's interesting, I was also thinking about/had lucid dreams recently; I realized it while wandering around a shopping mall during Christmas time. Didn't transform it into giant space battles or orgies or anything, but I distinctly recall trying to finish looking around before my body's eyes opened.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

You could argue that Following, Memento and Inception are part of a trilogy, given they were either the Nolans' first films, or thought up first and have very similar themes running through them, though not directly related in story, like the Red Curtain trilogy of Luhrmann.

It would be handy to have the attaché case in the film, if only to enable dream recall. The ability to share subconscious and conscious constructs like that would be revolutionary for entertainment and training, to name two areas.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Admiral Valdemar wrote: It would be handy to have the attaché case in the film, if only to enable dream recall. The ability to share subconscious and conscious constructs like that would be revolutionary for entertainment and training, to name two areas.
They do mention that the entire reason the military developed the dreaming system was to train soldiers.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

Post by Wedge »

Just saw the movie as it just premiered here in Germany.

Loved the movie, but hated how Nolan decided to do the ending. It was too much 'in your face'.
The reaction in the theater were chuckles and "aaaarrrrrrggg".

The dialogue between Cobb and Mal in the limbo already hint that what Cobb thinks is the reality maybe isn't, or when he asks her if it's his dream why he doesn't have control over it she answers "because you don't realize it's a dream". The thing with his children apparently not growing up, or never knowing how much time has passed between his wife's suicide and the present.
I'm not mad because of the ambiguous ending, but because of how plain the ambiguity was presented.
It was like Nolan saying: "Since you are so dumb, here *final shot*, get it? get it?"
The final shot wasn't necessary, because even without it we would have had the same question because we never saw the top falling or spinning.
I really hate that final shot, it kind of ruins the awesomness of the movie for me.

I really loved the scene were Cillian Murphy opens the vault and those final words from his father, a touching scene.
Great acting all around and superb soundtrack.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

Post by Stofsk »

I was on the edge of my seat for most of this movie. I think it's exceptionally well made, and poses some interesting and difficult questions.
Spoiler
I think the ending isn't that ambiguous. I think it's obvious really, that he's still dreaming. Everything about the ending was too easy and wrapped up too neatly for it to be real.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

Post by Vympel »

I think the ending isn't that ambiguous. I think it's obvious really, that he's still dreaming. Everything about the ending was too easy and wrapped up too neatly for it to be real.
I had the exact opposite reaction. Looked like the top was obviously about to fall over.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Liked it. Beginning confused me at first, but it was still very well done. :D
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Wedge wrote:Just saw the movie as it just premiered here in Germany.

Loved the movie, but hated how Nolan decided to do the ending. It was too much 'in your face'.
The reaction in the theater were chuckles and "aaaarrrrrrggg".

The dialogue between Cobb and Mal in the limbo already hint that what Cobb thinks is the reality maybe isn't, or when he asks her if it's his dream why he doesn't have control over it she answers "because you don't realize it's a dream". The thing with his children apparently not growing up, or never knowing how much time has passed between his wife's suicide and the present.
I'm not mad because of the ambiguous ending, but because of how plain the ambiguity was presented.
It was like Nolan saying: "Since you are so dumb, here *final shot*, get it? get it?"
The final shot wasn't necessary, because even without it we would have had the same question because we never saw the top falling or spinning.
I really hate that final shot, it kind of ruins the awesomness of the movie for me.

I really loved the scene were Cillian Murphy opens the vault and those final words from his father, a touching scene.
Great acting all around and superb soundtrack.
Really? I had no problem with the ending at all, in fact, I think that ambiguity is enhanced by the now iconic spinning top totem (I've just seen a TV spot now using that totem to appeal to those who wonder about a repeat viewing).

Also...

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And I too thought the trailer music to trailer 2 was Hans Zimmer, because they did use original music for the TDK trailers from the film. Pity the track isn't on the score.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Admiral Valdemar wrote: It helps that it makes sense too, given a machine that shares dream states and takes advantage of the subconscious is a far classier way of doing things. The Matrix wasn't just pretentious. It made no sense, something the sequels only further hammered home (Matrix within a Matrix? No, just Neo magic).
I like The Matrix in isolation and it is good enough to influence Inception - the woman in the red dress training scene clearly inspired the Paris dream scene. I assume that Neo was being indoctrinated by terrorist luddites and thus don't take what Morpheus was saying completely at face value (plus Neo was killing enforcers in the imaginary world that were either trapped people or sentient programs, not abstract mental projections that just happen to look like armed guards, adding to the moral dubiousness).
Oh yeah, anyone else researching how to lucid dream at will now, or at least recall dreams properly?
I had a weird lucid dream where I was on a bus and drinking non-alcoholic beer, another passanger who looked like me (except taller and more athletic) started to tell me off for boozing in public.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Good movie, that does what few movies do. It explained the concepts in the film. Also the ending is one of which Nolan knows people will see it either half full or half empty.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Vympel wrote:
I think the ending isn't that ambiguous. I think it's obvious really, that he's still dreaming. Everything about the ending was too easy and wrapped up too neatly for it to be real.
I had the exact opposite reaction. Looked like the top was obviously about to fall over.
It's not just the totem. It's everything. Everything fits together neatly. I'd need to see the film again (mum wants to see it) but the impression I got was that he was still dreaming.

I also totally disagree with you regarding Marion Cotillard. I was gobsmacked by her to be honest.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

Post by adam_grif »

I enjoyed it. Wasn't perfect. Wasn't a fan of the 20x time dilation occurring to dreams within dreams, as a concept. Also wished they would have done a bit more with the dreaming, instead of just cramming more and more layers into it. Very rarely did it actually feel like a dream world. Would have been cool if they'd done things like having the "subconscious projections" be faceless or lacking in detail. Was also a little confused as to why the dreams-within-dreams weren't experiencing zero gravity when the first layer was.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

Post by Stofsk »

The time dilation thing was nonsense, but I can accept it as part of the premise for the story to work. Time in dreams roughly corresponds with real life if I remember my year 12 psychology classes correctly.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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People always claim that they dreamed for "ages" and that they are shocked they were only sleeping for a few minutes. But what is really happening is that you get the "feeling" of a lot of time passing, and if you try to remember what actually happen, you realize that only a few minutes of stuff actually occurred, possibly only a few seconds.

I didn't have a problem with 20x for the first layer, but the idea that it was 20x20x20x20 when they were on the beach at the end was shattering my disbelief quite a bit. It's like, your brain is thinking at 160,000x it's normal speed, while you're under an intense sedative. Really?
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Stofsk wrote:I also totally disagree with you regarding Marion Cotillard. I was gobsmacked by her to be honest.
She had a strange performance, and her character in the dreams sometimes seemed like they're from the 20s, in terms of fashion and demeanor, which is cool. Goddamn I love the slick look of the whole movie, the snazzy dresses and coats and ties.

Her acting was great, going from weirdo crazy hateful bitch, and then to a victimized person who's very sad and sympathetic who you can't help but feel sorry for, and the fact that her character's not even alive, not even real, just the guilt-ridden memory of a dead person makes it even more... :(
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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adam_grif wrote:People always claim that they dreamed for "ages" and that they are shocked they were only sleeping for a few minutes. But what is really happening is that you get the "feeling" of a lot of time passing, and if you try to remember what actually happen, you realize that only a few minutes of stuff actually occurred, possibly only a few seconds.

I didn't have a problem with 20x for the first layer, but the idea that it was 20x20x20x20 when they were on the beach at the end was shattering my disbelief quite a bit. It's like, your brain is thinking at 160,000x it's normal speed, while you're under an intense sedative. Really?
LaBerge's studies seem to indicate that the dreamer can manipulate the time periods so perception is skewed. Either way, the drug and the machine may have an impact on this aspect e.g. the machine connecting multiple brains may have the side-effect of acting like an even larger neural network, enhancing processing capacity among the dreamers. As for the sense of gravity, it may be down to how deep in the subconscious you get i.e. deeper means less effects being felt from higher level dream states, with limbo being so disconnected it can lead to mental breakdown or comas.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Either way, the drug and the machine may have an impact on this aspect e.g. the machine connecting multiple brains may have the side-effect of acting like an even larger neural network, enhancing processing capacity among the dreamers.
Except every person's brain still has to do what it normally has to do anyway, and the "you only use 10% of your brain" thing is a myth. Where does the extra power to process 160,000 times faster than normal come from? Can neurons even fire signals fast enough to get to 20, 400 or 8000x speed? In fact, where does the ability to process 20x faster than normal come from? It's not like you can just allocate idle cycles to speed up thought.

Distorted time and being in dreams for weeks makes sense when you aren't really living 1 second for every 1 second that appears to have passed, when you skip from events to events and often don't events complete one before you're at another. Obviously that's not what's happening in the movies.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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adam_grif wrote:
Except every person's brain still has to do what it normally has to do anyway, and the "you only use 10% of your brain" thing is a myth. Where does the extra
power to process 160,000 times faster than normal come from? Can neurons even fire signals fast enough to get to 20, 400 or 8000x speed? In fact, where
does the ability to process 20x faster than normal come from? It's not like you can just allocate idle cycles to speed up thought.

Distorted time and being in dreams for weeks makes sense when you aren't really living 1 second for every 1 second that appears to have passed, when you skip from events to events and often don't events complete one before you're at another. Obviously that's not what's happening in the movies.
Who said anything about the "10% of your brain" myth? Certainly not I (I studied a little neurology at uni anyway), and certainly not in the film, given Cobb was talking about creativity rather than physiologically. In any case, the 10% figure is not strictly a fiction. It's the idea that we have 90% of our brain that is never used, not that we don't use all our brain at once. The perpetrators of this idea buy into psychic powers and seeing into the future or telekinesis because they think we have latent, primal parts of the brain we forgot how to use. It's bunkum. For the most part we don't use all our brain, since we don't need every neurone firing at the same time, especially in a sedentary state and given the heat output and energy usage.

So the idea of the machine using spare capacity from those connected isn't really that much of a stretch, especially if some people aren't dreaming as in-depth as others, as I would presume the deeper you dream, the more activity your brain performs for the various layers.

It could be that the drug is not just any normal anæsthesia or sedative anyway. It was tailor made for these kinds of tasks, and there are drugs that increase the efficiency of mental processes (hell, pure O2 being breathed for several minutes can produce better mental acuity for a long while) which may explain why the participants are still able to lucid dream and carry out extraction or inception, but not suffer being overly groggy or even going into a dreamless state as if knocked out cold.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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It's the idea that we have 90% of our brain that is never used, not that we don't use all our brain at once. The perpetrators of this idea buy into psychic powers and seeing into the future or telekinesis because they think we have latent, primal parts of the brain we forgot how to use. It's bunkum. For the most part we don't use all our brain, since we don't need every neurone firing at the same time, especially in a sedentary state and given the heat output and energy usage..
People who fire abnormally large numbers of neurons at once exist, but I'm not sure I'm ready to consider epilepsy to be some kind of superpower. "All of our neurons firing at the same time" is not only unnecessary, it's actively hazerdous. You don't get "increased performance" from it in the same way flicking all the 0's to 1's in your RAM doesn't give you increased capacity.
So the idea of the machine using spare capacity from those connected isn't really that much of a stretch, especially if some people aren't dreaming as in-depth as others, as I would presume the deeper you dream, the more activity your brain performs for the various layers.
The brain isn't a big generic computer with clockcycles that can be allocated to any task. Specific parts have specific jobs, and firing all of the idle bits doesn't increase some generic "processor speed" value that makes everything run smoother and more efficiently.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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adam_grif wrote:
People who fire abnormally large numbers of neurons at once exist, but I'm not sure I'm ready to consider epilepsy to be some kind of superpower. "All of our neurons firing at the same time" is not only unnecessary, it's actively hazerdous. You don't get "increased performance" from it in the same way flicking all the 0's to 1's in your RAM doesn't give you increased capacity.
Well, quite. It's evolutionarily a dead end given it uses vastly more energy and can cause overheating leading to more seizures and general badness.

The brain isn't a big generic computer with clockcycles that can be allocated to any task. Specific parts have specific jobs, and firing all of the idle bits doesn't increase some generic "processor speed" value that makes everything run smoother and more efficiently.
Actually, neuroplasticity enables exactly this. There are plenty of people alive today who wouldn't be if the brain didn't have an ability to adapt itself to different tasks. It's not hard to imagine the best extractors are able to train their brains through prolonged use of the machine to make better use of their subconscious awareness. Like you say, we don't use all our brain anyway, and the brain isn't some immutable computer circuit where a part represents a mental GPU and cannot work physics engines, to carry on the analogy. And we also know that not everyone is going around with the expertise of Cobb and his team, so it may be quite the skill to hone.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:
Stofsk wrote:I also totally disagree with you regarding Marion Cotillard. I was gobsmacked by her to be honest.
She had a strange performance, and her character in the dreams sometimes seemed like they're from the 20s, in terms of fashion and demeanor, which is cool. Goddamn I love the slick look of the whole movie, the snazzy dresses and coats and ties.
That's why I like her. Vympel though seems to think she's creepy. :lol:
Her acting was great, going from weirdo crazy hateful bitch, and then to a victimized person who's very sad and sympathetic who you can't help but feel sorry for, and the fact that her character's not even alive, not even real, just the guilt-ridden memory of a dead person makes it even more... :(
Yeah, it's fascinating, also how she says at the end how he is the one that is dreaming. It's a reverse inception, he put the idea into her mind that the dream is not real in order to get her to wake up, but it worked too well and hence her suicide. His subconscious knows this, and she's a reflection of his subconscious guilt for what he did. So 'she' does the same thing in a sense to him, that he did to her. So he's still dreaming at the end IMO. :)
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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I did like how Cotillard also played Édith Piaf in a biopic of her life. I wonder if that's why the music Arthur uses to signify an imminent kick was "Non, je ne regrette rien", well, I mean Nolan chose rather.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Stofsk wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
Stofsk wrote:I also totally disagree with you regarding Marion Cotillard. I was gobsmacked by her to be honest.
She had a strange performance, and her character in the dreams sometimes seemed like they're from the 20s, in terms of fashion and demeanor, which is cool. Goddamn I love the slick look of the whole movie, the snazzy dresses and coats and ties.
That's why I like her. Vympel though seems to think she's creepy. :lol:
Her acting was great, going from weirdo crazy hateful bitch, and then to a victimized person who's very sad and sympathetic who you can't help but feel sorry for, and the fact that her character's not even alive, not even real, just the guilt-ridden memory of a dead person makes it even more... :(
Yeah, it's fascinating, also how she says at the end how he is the one that is dreaming. It's a reverse inception, he put the idea into her mind that the dream is not real in order to get her to wake up, but it worked too well and hence her suicide. His subconscious knows this, and she's a reflection of his subconscious guilt for what he did. So 'she' does the same thing in a sense to him, that he did to her. So he's still dreaming at the end IMO. :)
Given she's a femme fatale and the influence that the "je ne regrette rien" song has on everything, the early 20th century aesthetic (and a french actress who portrayed Piaf in a different film) is hardly out of place.
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Re: Christopher Nolan's Inception

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Vympel wrote:
I think the ending isn't that ambiguous. I think it's obvious really, that he's still dreaming. Everything about the ending was too easy and wrapped up too neatly for it to be real.
I had the exact opposite reaction. Looked like the top was obviously about to fall over.
They showed the top twice, first the initial spin, during which it clearly slowed down; and then again in the last shot of the film. The thing is, the top was spinning faster and wobbling less at the start of the second shot than at the end of the first shot. And with Christopher Nolan, I doubt this is simply an oversight. Rather, it would seem that Cobb was in a dream which was a more realistic simulation, but still a dream. More realistic, because it was made by a better architect: Ariadne.

Ariadne was the only one who had seen Cobb's memories, and would know how to craft this dream; although she would not be able to realistically age his children, and so they are stuck looking as they did 2 years prior.

Incidentally, Ariadne is named after King Minos' daughter, who helped Theseus kill the minotaur and escape the labyrinth; which lends further support to this theory.
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