REPRAPS changing things in your scifi

[Uncluttered]

I was just reading an article about the effects of startrek style replicators on IP.
http://www.philipbrocoum.com/?p=3

Desktop manufacturing is on the horizon, yet we don't see a whole lot of it in scifi.
We like to pretend that the writers have thought of it, and it's ubiquitous in the background due to fanon. But the fact is most writers aren't even aware of it.
How would a fully functioning reprap machine change existing scifi? Assume the reprap can create anything that is a normal commodity in the scifi universe of your choice. It would still need an input of raw material. Possibly specialized raw material.
I'm curious. What does the forum think


I'll give some examples:
Would repraps have made life better in the ragtag fleet?
Would a reprap on the Destiny in SGU make things too easy?
Would an ork bother to paint it red?
Would the battle of endor gone better if the strike team brought a reprap and a cd with gunipedia?
How about a reprap on LV-426?
How would a reprap effect the politics of Firefly?


The article is below

Gene Roddenberry, the creator of Star Trek, envisions a 24th century utopia where people want for nothing. There is no money; replicators can create anything you need. Food? Shelter? Clothing? No problem. Because of this, there is no poverty, no homeless people, no crime, and no violence. It’s a perfect world, except for one thing: intellectual property has gone out the window.
Replicators are the real world equivalent of illegal downloading on the Internet. Bit torrent files allow you to copy information from one place to another, and replicators allow you to copy physical objects from one place to another. If filesharing is illegal, just imagine the unspeakable crime of replication. If we had replicators today, people would be stealing computers, cars, televisions, sofas, and Rolex watches. It would be mass theft on a scale never before imagined.
The elusive concept to grasp, however, is that the world is actually a better place because of it. Let’s take a moment to remember why stealing is illegal in the first place. If I steal your car, you no longer have a car. If I steal your food, you might go hungry and die. Stealing can really hurt people. As a society, it was generally decided that stealing is bad and was thus made illegal.
Copying, on the other hand, is not the same as stealing. If I copy your music, you still have music. Recording a TV show doesn’t prevent other people from watching it. Copying actually adds to the world we live in. Because of copying, there is more music in the world, more information, more video, not less. More people can enjoy it, more people have access to it, more people can learn it, and more people can watch it. Nothing has been lost, and so much has been gained.
Imagine a world where replicators actually existed and people could steal whatever they wanted. Would we really throw people in jail for replicating food for their family? For replicating expensive cancer drugs? For replicating clothes for their children? What if an old man decides to replicate himself a wheelchair? Do we throw him in jail for that? He didn’t pay for it, after all, he stole it. “No,” you say, “that’s different.”
“That’s different” is an easy way out. The funny thing is, we are now on the verge of an information utopia, a world where everybody no matter how rich or poor has free access to all information, and we are trying so hard to stop it. With free information, your child’s future college education might cost $0 instead of $150,000.
Change is always scary, and there is a price for this freedom. If people can replicate their own food, farmers will go out of business. The drug companies and insurance behemoths may collapse if medicine becomes free. Even in the real world, although it hasn’t happened yet, record companies and music labels may become a thing of the past, nothing more than a page in somebody’s history book. Still, is this a bad thing?
The invention of the light bulb probably wrecked havoc on the candle industry. Now that we have refrigerators and pasteurization, we no longer have to fill boats with large blocks of ice or salt all of our meats so that they don’t spoil. Cassette tapes are extinct thanks to CDs. Soon, CDs will be extinct thanks to MP3s. Nobody weeps for the poor cassette tape manufacturers or candle makers who have lost their jobs. Who cares if a few drug tycoons or media moguls have to go into early retirement? If we end up in a world where food is so abundant that we don’t need farmers anymore, I can’t imagine anything better.
It’s important to remember that we should strive to make the world as good a place to live in as we can, for all people. Whether or not a few people can become rich is beside the point. We are already halfway to Gene Roddenberry’s utopia. If it wasn’t for arcane intellectual property laws, originally created for a vastly different world than the one in which we live now, all digital information would be legally free and widely available to everyone. Anything non-physical is now free, and if scientists ever create replicators that can copy physical objects, that will be the final step towards a world where everything, for everyone, is free. And that is true freedom.

[Sarevok]

Would a clanking replicator fit onto a typical household ? I imagine it would be an enormous construct bigger than the typical two story house. The idea that a tabletop machine can take raw material as input and output finished electronic or mechanical devices is hard to believe. You will have to fit the industrial base of a developed country on a miniature scale inside a replicator to make it useful.

[dworkin]

Would repraps have made life better in the ragtag fleet?

The technology is a bit beyond the Colonials, why not just imagine they had Star Wars style hyperdrive? Scarcity is a major theme in nBSJ. You would be changing one of the underpinning ideas of the show.

Would a reprap on the Destiny in SGU make things too easy?

Destiny probably has an entire range of the things. Of course it is utterly unrecognisable, damaged and requires specific instructions in a programming language no one knows.

Would an ork bother to paint it red?

Yes, and in 40K they're called STCs. The ork version probably shakes, makes strange noises and belches smoke for no adequately explained reason but in all respects is a functioning STC.

Would the battle of endor gone better if the strike team brought a reprap and a cd with gunipedia?

No. Where are the rebels going to get the raw materials on short notice, they're on a timer and they had no idea the ewoks were there. Like most people they built it and then brought what they needed. Most fiction is not like a RTS game where there are piles of 'minerals' conveniently lying about near the battle site.

How about a reprap on LV-426?

How about one? Wouldn't of helped the civilians any. And the marines came loaded for bear. They already had plenty of weapons that they brought with them, including sentry guns. The problem was that they had shot up the reactor and had lost their radio and were surrounded by nasty monsters. Getting the needed raw materials to the fabricator to make the new radio would of been just as dangerous as the in movie solution (Send Bishop to the colony radio).

In truth, SF does consider these things and does it well. Look at the Culture series where drama ensues in spite of everyone being able to own anything (except other people). The vignette that starts off 'The Player of Games' is telling. The drone bribes and then blackmails the protagonist over being the first to get a perfect score in a game. It is a unique event which cannot be replicated.

Look at 3rd Expansion humanity from the Xeelee saga. While they can easily make anything they want to, they're locked in an endless war with the Xeelee who have everything humanity does, only much much better. All resources are going towards making ships, guns and whatnot for the war and that includes the people.

In 'The Diamond Age' almost anything can be made provided you have the right program. While a range of programs is commonly available so everyone has access to a certain standard of living (not great but it's also implied that Nell's parents are not model citizens). However every other program is jealously guarded and so there are royalties whenever you use someone's program to make a thing. In this world the personal touch is appreciated and valuable. One community specialises in hand-making things for the wealthy because a hand crafted thing is unique with peculiar imperfections becoming valued because now, they are rarities. You can have 8 mahogany chairs duplicated out of a replicator and each one is the same. Or you can have eight made to order chairs, each one slightly even unoticably different but they are. Which is more valuable?

[Dave]

Only one? If so, you now have a political football. Everyone and their mother is going to want to get their hands on it for their own purposes. Some of them will be good, like making fabricators for everyone, but others are going to be selfish (I want a steak!) to hostile (I want to control it!) to destructive. (Let's make a bomb!)

What's the resolution for your hypothetical machine? (Can I make car parts? Can I make miniature machinery? Can I make nanobots? Can I make biological stuff? Can I clone myself?)

What kind of training is required to use it? Does it need power? How big is it? How long does it take to fabricate? Does it create toxic waste in the process? Do I have to provide my own raw materials storage? (Consider the difficulties of storing elemental fluorine.)

Stuff like that put a spin on how someone would answer the question. I myself have been pondering the implications of a technology like that in Comrade Stas's signature. (linky)

[Uncluttered]

Would a clanking replicator fit onto a typical household ? I imagine it would be an enormous construct bigger than the typical two story house. The idea that a tabletop machine can take raw material as input and output finished electronic or mechanical devices is hard to believe. You will have to fit the industrial base of a developed country on a miniature scale inside a replicator to make it useful.

Not necessarily, but you would have to change the designs to accommodate a different type of manufacturing. Also. in some tech universes, the user might have to do the final assembly.

For instance, the machine may make gun parts, but you have to assemble to gun.
Sometimes the machine may have to printout the extra tools it needs, and have the user install them.

One way to do the true 3d on the cheap, is to print water onto plaster dust. The resulting plaster figure, can then be used to make a sand mold. Optionally, you can directly print the mold itself. Nonferrous metals can be melted in a microwave oven crucible, and poured into a plaster mold.

Also. There is a lot you can make, if you are willing to go slow. For instance, if you were willing to use laser welded metal powder, instead of drop forged or molded.

I'll add a change to the OP: The reprap CAN be designed to make the tools it needs to complete a job.

You don't need CVD to make logic boards.
I once made a printer that could print with carbon nanotubes. I could actually print out field effect transistors. I made it from an Epson inkjet. It fit on a desktop.

Also. Assume that for small batches of products, that the reprap has common specialty items, such as LEDs, capacitors, screws, in its inventory.

In example: you can make a pulse rifle, but 100 pulse rifles means you need to either make/aquire LEDs, or replace it with something the machine can make, such as a light bulb.

[Uncluttered]

The technology is a bit beyond the Colonials, why not just imagine they had Star Wars style hyperdrive? Scarcity is a major theme in nBSJ. You would be changing one of the underpinning ideas of the show.

Yep. I totally agree with you. Yet, the reprap is a very real project. Desktop manufacturing is probably going to be very real. nBSG liked to use primitive things, but they did have computers at least as powerful as real life 21st century earth. They could have probably made a reprap in the machine shops on board the galactica. They made those baby bottles with something.

Destiny probably has an entire range of the things. Of course it is utterly unrecognisable, damaged and requires specific instructions in a programming language no one knows.

True. But they seem to have some handy tools. What if they built a basic reprap with the tools they had, and used it to build a more sophisticated reprap. What if they used a reprap designed on 21st century stargate earth. The one with all the fancy alien tech. What would they make?

[\Yes, and in 40K they're called STCs. The ork version probably shakes, makes strange noises and belches smoke for no adequately explained reason but in all respects is a functioning STC.

And today I learned something new. Thanks.

No. Where are the rebels going to get the raw materials on short notice, they're on a timer and they had no idea the ewoks were there. Like most people they built it and then brought what they needed. Most fiction is not like a RTS game where there are piles of 'minerals' conveniently lying about near the battle site.

Endor was a poor example. How about in TPM when they had to pod race for hyperdrive parts.

How about one? Wouldn't of helped the civilians any. And the marines came loaded for bear. They already had plenty of weapons that they brought with them, including sentry guns. The problem was that they had shot up the reactor and had lost their radio and were surrounded by nasty monsters. Getting the needed raw materials to the fabricator to make the new radio would of been just as dangerous as the in movie solution (Send Bishop to the colony radio).

I'm not sure. I think another couple of sentry guns, and more ammo, would have made things easier. If the colony had a reprap, chances are it would have been loaded up with raw materials.
Of course, the writers would have had to write about xenomorphs chewing it up to.

In truth, SF does consider these things and does it well.

I'm refering to the fact not all Scifi knows about desktop manufacturing.
The OP is a "What would change in your favorite scifi if repraps were introduced" maybe I should change the title.
[/quote]

I agree with the rest of your points.

[Sarevok]

You could print out FETs ? That sounds very amazing. Could you extend this to other circuit element ?

[LionElJonson]

Would an ork bother to paint it red?

Yes, and in 40K they're called STCs. The ork version probably shakes, makes strange noises and belches smoke for no adequately explained reason but in all respects is a functioning STC.

Orks do have them. They're called "mekboyz".

[dworkin]

Please explain what a REPRAP is. What are it's capabilities? What it can and cannot do?

You've mentioned the Star Trek replicator which assembles things at an atomic level. And you've also mentioned a tool that is just around the corner. What is it?

[Dave]

Please explain what a REPRAP is. What are it's capabilities? What it can and cannot do?

Yes, OP should have explained this, but I've read about the project before. The Replicating Rapid Prototyper is a project to basically create a rapid prototyper that can create all the parts needed to create another copy of itself. A rapid prototyper creates 3D parts (usually using meltable plastic) given a 3D model of the object to be created.

In its default form, the current RepRap fabricators use a specific kind of "thermoplastic" that can be melted when it moves past a heated tip. The extruded bead of plastic appears to be roughly one mm in diameter and can be used to make small plastic parts like those used for connectors in this particular fabricator.

So, you could make, say, a plastic iPod dock for an odd place in your car, but you're not going to be able to use it for hot environments like under your car hood or in a jet engine. The "build envelope" is listed as being 200 mm by 200 mm by 140 mm, so this isn't going to build a house either. Finally each part is going to take hours to fabricate (as the little extruder tip moves back and forth to fill a solid shape), and is under the influence of gravity at all times, so building something like a sphere is going to be tricky at best.

[Uncluttered]

Please explain what a REPRAP is. What are it's capabilities? What it can and cannot do?

Yes, OP should have explained this, but I've read about the project before. The Replicating Rapid Prototyper is a project to basically create a rapid prototyper that can create all the parts needed to create another copy of itself. A rapid prototyper creates 3D parts (usually using meltable plastic) given a 3D model of the object to be created.

In its default form, the current RepRap fabricators use a specific kind of "thermoplastic" that can be melted when it moves past a heated tip. The extruded bead of plastic appears to be roughly one mm in diameter and can be used to make small plastic parts like those used for connectors in this particular fabricator.

So, you could make, say, a plastic iPod dock for an odd place in your car, but you're not going to be able to use it for hot environments like under your car hood or in a jet engine. The "build envelope" is listed as being 200 mm by 200 mm by 140 mm, so this isn't going to build a house either. Finally each part is going to take hours to fabricate (as the little extruder tip moves back and forth to fill a solid shape), and is under the influence of gravity at all times, so building something like a sphere is going to be tricky at best.

I didn't want everyone bogged down with the details of the actual reprap, which are not as impressive as science fiction replicators.
I'd like you guys to assume that the science fiction world of your choice, has a reprap system of comparable technology, and then take the ball and run with it. What would change?
Would this be comparable to what happens with horror movies when the victim has a working cell phone?

For instance, startrek repraps (replicators) work at the atomic level. A reprap system on LV-426 would be a little more clanking. A reprap in starwars would be powered by the dark side and 6000 years old. A reprap in nBSG would not be networked.
But, if you just talk about the realworld reprap. There is no major engineering preventing you from using the thermoplastic parts to make sand molds.
The reprap as is, is capable of building the next generation reprap, which is pretty cool.

[Sarevok]

Speaking of nBSG I thought they had repraps. Automated manufacturing must had been a core part of the cylon origin story. But it turns out they use Centurions for everything. Even cleaning floors and planting trees. Thats right they use battledroids with built in weapons and bullet proof armor for menial labor. One more reason why second half of the series is fucking stupid. There was hint of reprap like technology at work in first season. The cylon mining facility destroyed in hand of god was seemed like an automated base munching on an asteroid. Too bad this kind of thinking got lost.

[Dave]

I didn't want everyone bogged down with the details of the actual reprap, which are not as impressive as science fiction replicators.
I'd like you guys to assume that the science fiction world of your choice, has a reprap system of comparable technology, and then take the ball and run with it. What would change?
Would this be comparable to what happens with horror movies when the victim has a working cell phone?


A reprap in starwars would be powered by the dark side and 6000 years old.

They had these in star wars -- they were called World Devastators, consuming asteroids and planets to create Imperial war material. In fact, I recall smaller versions called Construction Droids on Coruscant, used to tear up slum neighborhoods in one go and rebuild pristine buildings behind them. And they didn't run off the dark side. Anyway, barring what I've heard of the EU treatment of the situation Spoiler

(Empire has new superweapon of World Devestators, R2-D2 grabs the command frequency, the Rebels use it to make them eat each other. Rebels win again.)

it's absolutely a useful tool. You could take any asteroids, any defunct starships, any troublesome planets and turn them into anything the resources provide you. The only problem I see is that you are limited by what goes in, you can't forge your own elements. So if you need, say, iron, and the nearest iron deposit is on another planet, well, you're going to have to go there to get it.

A reprap in nBSG would not be networked.

Ok, so they have humans manning most of the consoles. I'm envisioning a big mining ship with a space construction yard hanging out the back. But I just don't see how the Colonials have furnaces that can just rip anything apart, like a world devastator. We never saw anything like that kind of refining effort. And even if they did, I'm not seeing a whole lot of benefit -- if you want a ship, you're going to have to sit on an asteroid and build one. And then you have one more ship to pilot. I didn't see much in the way of ship shortage issues, other than something like "We could really use more raptors to haul cargo, but that would just be convenient." Perhaps they could make some basic habitation ships to relieve some overpopulation, but that means yet another ship to keep track of.

The point is, they're still on the run, no matter what they do, and (in my mind) it would take years, decades even with some magical fabricator to locate resources for and build a fleet big enough to hold off the Cylons when they get found. It's kind of like Homeworld -- you can eat asteroids, but you're still on the run, and it's just replacing losses. Towards the end of nBSG, it wasn't ships they were running low on, but trained personnel. Try replacing that with a magical space drydock.

But, if you just talk about the realworld reprap. There is no major engineering preventing you from using the thermoplastic parts to make sand molds.

I like that idea! You could totally do lost foam casting to make rudimentary metal supports and such. Maybe they wouldn't be polished enough for the stepper rails, but I think structurally you'd be OK.

The reprap as is, is capable of building the next generation reprap, which is pretty cool.

Woah, what? As I read it, they were still working on fabbing PCBs for the electronics. They can't make resistors, capacitors, and the integrated circuits to run it. The thing runs off an Arduino with multiple daughter boards!

It can build some of the child's plastic parts, yes, but not the whole thing.

So, no, it isn't a full von Neumann machine. And it isn't especially close, either.

[Sarevok]

Well while the Colonials in nBSG did not have reprap technology they had something similar in the form of psi powers. The Colonial fleet did have some Cylon god derived magic amongst certain human members. The tech priests onboard Peagasus used this sorcery to construct brand new vipers to replace losses. This technology was also seen in fourth season opening episode. The cylon god used advanced levels of psionic matter manipulation to reconstitute starbucks vaporized viper. He also rebuilt starbuck herself atom by atom.

[Sea Skimmer]

If replicators existed that can make chemical compounds as complicated and specialized as cancer drugs then society would probably fall apart if they were not restricted to government and licensed commercial use. Making nerve gas, explosive and numerous other deadly things would be far easier in comparison, and you can’t cut that capability out without neutering a whole lot of other abilities this machine is being implied to have. Software limitations can be bypassed, and requiring input of raw materials is not effective when chemical weapon and explosives precursors are common. Indeed this machine sounds like it must have at least molecular if not atomic scale manipulation capabilities, which would mean you could even use it to turn raw uranium ore you dug out of the ground yourself into weapons grade U-235 over time.

The end result would be an ATF style agency to regulate and control replicators. Star Trek basically already has that kind of regulation because almost every replicator we ever see is physically built into a wall. That makes controlling the software a lot easier then if people can take a mobile one home in a free society. But in real life, people would rip them out of walls and steal them anyway. Star Trek is not populated with real people.

[Sarevok]

Actually given that level of control over matter society as we know it would not exist. Civilization would resemble Total Annihalation or Supreme Commander. You could actually fight wars with RTS game level build times and mobile bases.

[Sea Skimmer]

Well that would depend on just how large of objects you can replicate. It would be very hard to make something like a tank out of small pieces because some stuff just has to be cast and machined in large parts, like gun barrels and torsion bars. So if you were limited to a Star Trek wall replicator, I don’t see Total Annihilation happening. If you could make at least 6x4x4 foot items then about anything is possible.

Also, if you could make smaller items, then put them end to end in a small replicator, with the ends hanging out each side, then use the replicator to ‘weld’ the joint together then anything would be possible. You could join all kinds of stuff that would just be impossible to satisfactorily weld or bond in real life. But the replicator might not allow this, or one made up reason or another.

It’s a given that you would be able to create all kinds of materials that are a bitch to make today though, like joining tungsten and steel into laminate armor. You can just make it happen, rather then needing an exotic explosive welding process which only a few companies can do and which precludes anything but a flat shape.

[Sarevok]

Well that would depend on just how large of objects you can replicate. It would be very hard to make something like a tank out of small pieces because some stuff just has to be cast and machined in large parts, like gun barrels and torsion bars. So if you were limited to a Star Trek wall replicator, I don’t see Total Annihilation happening. If you could make at least 6x4x4 foot items then about anything is possible.

Well quantity has a quality of its own. You can design vehicles that are inferior in every respect but due to their replicator derived modular parts are very fast to build. I imagine an army of mediocre tanks and planes would be a great threat if thousands could be produced within weeks.Of course you will run out of trained people to crew them. I suppose the solution would be investing all efforts into rudimentary AI or cloning technology. So depending on your choices you end up with either the Core or the Arm.

It’s a given that you would be able to create all kinds of materials that are a bitch to make today though, like joining tungsten and steel into laminate armor. You can just make it happen, rather then needing an exotic explosive welding process which only a few companies can do and which precludes anything but a flat shape.

Coming back to real world I am curious about liquid fueled rocket engine constructions. Expendable launch vehicles are expensive partly because they destroy multi million dollar engines each flight. Would be possible to use real world tech like repraps to automate rocket engine production to bring cost down to car levels ?

[Dave]

Coming back to real world I am curious about liquid fueled rocket engine constructions. Expendable launch vehicles are expensive partly because they destroy multi million dollar engines each flight. Would be possible to use real world tech like repraps to automate rocket engine production to bring cost down to car levels ?

Replace "magical reprap technology" with "assembly lines" and you probably have a solution.

[Sarevok]

But that requires mass production. There is no market for excess launch capacity to justify the initial costs of a rocket assembly line. It would be cool to build one or two rockets and get same cost savings as building fifty identical models.

[Dave]

But that requires mass production. There is no market for excess launch capacity to justify the initial costs of a rocket assembly line. It would be cool to build one or two rockets and get same cost savings as building fifty identical models.

So you're asking for reusable rockets? I guess it would work with Star Trek replicators (consume the damaged parts and recast them in place, I suppose, same as TA and SupCom), but we're obviously not anywhere near that.

[Sea Skimmer]

So you're asking for reusable rockets? I guess it would work with Star Trek replicators (consume the damaged parts and recast them in place, I suppose, same as TA and SupCom), but we're obviously not anywhere near that.

Well the shuttle is a reusable rocket, just not a very good one because its budget was so crippled and requirements so absurd. Unmanned fly back boosters are actually very attractive idea, also a very old one. Most recent study I can recall was launched by the USAF just a few years ago, and China may be working on such a system as we speak. NASA studied them heavily for the shuttle program before deciding that somehow it would make sense to hitch space for seven astronauts onto a craft intended for routine cargo flights. But I don’t think that isn’t what Sarevok was talking about.

Instead he’s talking about the economy you would get if you could produce a single rocket with very low overhead costs. The replicator would take the place of a huge amount of specialist production tooling and quality assurance gear you need to build a rocket. Without all that overhead the actual cost of materials for the rocket would be pretty low. You would be talking about order of magnitude lower costs, like a big space booster for 40 million instead of 450 million. This is basically what Space X is trying to do, but so far it has not worked out to produce very good reliability nor have they flown anything all that big.

This elimination of production overhead costs would be relevant to many other industries too. Like if you wanted a custom microchip for a prototype smart phone, today you might pay several tens of millions of dollars to have it produced, while with a replicator you could just pop it out and it would be a couple hundred dollars for materials.

[ThomasP]

The end result would be an ATF style agency to regulate and control replicators. Star Trek basically already has that kind of regulation because almost every replicator we ever see is physically built into a wall. That makes controlling the software a lot easier then if people can take a mobile one home in a free society. But in real life, people would rip them out of walls and steal them anyway. Star Trek is not populated with real people.

This is an idea I hit on for a story setting awhile back. I thought it was an interesting premise, how you'd go about restricting something that is potentially dangerous to both economies and physical populations, and is designed to copy itself. You'd have to keep it government-controlled or strictly licensed commercially, and even then it's all but guaranteed that somebody will steal one. It won't be long before some suicidal nutjob is building nukes in his basement, or replicating an arsenal of automatic weapons, or some other nastiness.

[Imperial528]

It's a bit hard to build a nuke in your basement in any reasonable amount of time and in secret, even assuming that a replicator can make all that parts for you.

Unless they manage to let some jerk steal one twice the size of a warhead. In which case, Palpatine would suddenly have someone to look down on competence wise.

[Samuel]

I think getting your hands on pure radioactive materials would be hard. Chemical weapons and bioweapons on the other hand would be obscenely easily as Skimmer pointed out.

or replicating an arsenal of automatic weapons, or some other nastiness.

That isn't a problem. The police would probably also be as heavily equiped and you'd have crazy nut on rampage like now.