Which science fiction universe has the worst tactics?

[Werrf]

I was referring specifically to your complaint that cluster bombs should have killed the zombies, and pointing out that they did. Very effectively.

25% survival rate for unarmored personnel exposed to cluster bombs? Please, COME. THE. FUCK. ON.

You just don't comprehend how lethal modern weaponry is -- for example, a single MRLS rocket dumps it's submunitions over an area 200m in diameter -- everything that's unprotected in that area is dead or going to die in a few minutes.

I'll happily concede the point, as I do not have any kind of detailed information to discuss it with. I will ask if you can guarantee 100% headshots or quadruple amputation on all the zombies in the blast radius with these weapons? That is an honest question, as I do not know. I only got into this because I took issue with your objection that it should cause "limbs mangled, chopped off; having your head opened up etc by very hot fragments that act as very efficient cutting weapons", and trying to point out that that is was what described in the book. That is ALL I was trying to say, I will go no further.

[Vendetta]

I'll happily concede the point, as I do not have any kind of detailed information to discuss it with. I will ask if you can guarantee 100% headshots or quadruple amputation on all the zombies in the blast radius with these weapons?

You don't need to. Because you've previously corraled all the zombies into a contained killzone where it doesn't really matter how long it takes to kill them. And they won't do anything clever to stop you, because they're zombies.

And besides, when you get bored of high explosives and have achieved functional incapacity in the majority of your targets you douse the area in white phosphorous munitions, destroying the remains and sanitising the zone.

[CaptHawkeye]

I still don't understand how anybody can look at Zombies and disassociate with the disastrous failure of human wall and rush tactics of World War 1 and even some areas of World War 2. I mean, during the First World War they were stopping bayonet charges pretty much 100% of the time using weapons that were incredibly shitty by today's standards. (Low rate of fire, poor reliability, heavy, etc) The guys DOING the rush had the advantage of having guns are artillery of their own too. Resources which zombies presumably wouldn't have.

Then you get "well zombies would be willing to accept 100% casualties". The Germans were willing to accept 100% casualties at Verdun, didn't help them did it. How about the Somme? The Allies won but only by a narrow margin after basically marching units into complete annihilation one after the other. How about the Japanese? How many battles did they suffer complete force annihilation? Being tenacious doesn't make your shitty tactics any more viable.

[Uraniun235]

Oh, but, but, but it takes so much more to kill a zombie! They just keep coming until you shoot them in the head! Or decapitate them. Or vaporize them. Or (insert some ludicrous measure needed which is mysteriously just within reach of those guys that love to circlejerk about 'preparing for zombie apocalypse').

[CaptHawkeye]

Zombie fans are like conspiracy theorists. Instead of trying to feel special by making everyone else out to be evil, they feel special by making everyone else out to be incompetent and stupid. Because god damnet, if you're not prepared for a zombie apocalypse what are you prepared for in life zoomgmgg. These guys are honestly so rational as to think that while the army doodes and guys with airplanes and tanks and shit will be the first ones to die, but they will persist in their boarded up house armed with a couple of pocket revolvers and machetes. It's ok though their will be a big tittied girl who, thanks to the zombie apocalypse, suddenly finds the nerd's years of strange anti social behavior a huge turn on!

I also love it when Max Brook's fans use circular logic against critics of the book by claiming "SEE YOU'RE MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES THEY DO UNDERESTIMATING THE ZOMBIES".

[Bottlestein]

Zombie fans are like conspiracy theorists. Instead of trying to feel special by making everyone else out to be evil, they feel special by making everyone else out to be incompetent and stupid. Because god damnet, if you're not prepared for a zombie apocalypse what are you prepared for in life zoomgmgg. These guys are honestly so rational as to think that while the army doodes and guys with airplanes and tanks and shit will be the first ones to die, but they will persist in their boarded up house armed with a couple of pocket revolvers and machetes. It's ok though their will be a big tittied girl who, thanks to the zombie apocalypse, suddenly finds the nerd's years of strange anti social behavior a huge turn on!

I also love it when Max Brook's fans use circular logic against critics of the book by claiming "SEE YOU'RE MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES THEY DO UNDERESTIMATING THE ZOMBIES".

Many "survivalists" are like this. There was one guy who argued with me that the army was incompetent...etc.
It turns out, he believes the meat in the supermarket won't go bad, and modern cows don't need any care to survive in Wyoming

[Temujin]

Oh, but, but, but it takes so much more to kill a zombie! They just keep coming until you shoot them in the head! Or decapitate them. Or vaporize them. Or (insert some ludicrous measure needed which is mysteriously just within reach of those guys that love to circlejerk about 'preparing for zombie apocalypse').

There was a comic like this, I believe called Zombie War, where due to alien tech the zombies can regenerate after being nuked.

[lance]

What about DOOP from Futureama? Hand crank laser guns, "Wave, after wave, after wave" tactics. Zap Branigan having rank at all?

Sadly there's worse than him.

Such as? Were they celebrated commanders? Were they fooled by the worst of disguises outside of AotKT?

[Raxmei]

One of the Redwall novels, I think it was Salamandastron, introduced the devastating tactic known as the "Guosim Windmill." To execute this tactic you have your men all run around in a circle holding their swords at varying heights. This is one of the few tactical formations ever mentioned in the series. Most combat is the classic poorly-researched-fantasy mob style of warfare. However they are just children's books.

[Samuel]

One of the Redwall novels, I think it was Salamandastron, introduced the devastating tactic known as the "Guosim Windmill." To execute this tactic you have your men all run around in a circle holding their swords at varying heights. This is one of the few tactical formations ever mentioned in the series. Most combat is the classic poorly-researched-fantasy mob style of warfare. However they are just children's books.

Redwall doesn't feature warfare- it is the local gangs trying to beat up on the Salvation Army . Given the vermin tend to display the discipline and moral fiber of Iraqi conscripts (only less so) it isn't surprising tactics are poor, although that move doesn't sound smart. Maybe if you can bound rapidly and the guy in front blocks the enemies view... Siege tactics are better, although you'd think the abbey would have developed counter measures given the number of attacks.

[Zor]

In regards to artillery, if a Zombie gets a load of shrapnal into say, its leg and it keeps running, won't the shrapnal bits rip apart the flesh moving around it?

Zor

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

I was referring specifically to your complaint that cluster bombs should have killed the zombies, and pointing out that they did. Very effectively.

25% survival rate for unarmored personnel exposed to cluster bombs? Please, COME. THE. FUCK. ON.

You just don't comprehend how lethal modern weaponry is -- for example, a single MRLS rocket dumps it's submunitions over an area 200m in diameter -- everything that's unprotected in that area is dead or going to die in a few minutes.

I'll happily concede the point, as I do not have any kind of detailed information to discuss it with. I will ask if you can guarantee 100% headshots or quadruple amputation on all the zombies in the blast radius with these weapons? That is an honest question, as I do not know. I only got into this because I took issue with your objection that it should cause "limbs mangled, chopped off; having your head opened up etc by very hot fragments that act as very efficient cutting weapons", and trying to point out that that is was what described in the book. That is ALL I was trying to say, I will go no further.

It doesn't matter if some zombies survive the initial air/artillary strike, because more will be on the way. You're acting like the airforce would drop one B-52's worth of cluster bombs and then go home, instead of hammering the shambling menace until it stopped moving.

[Simon_Jester]

Zombie fans are like conspiracy theorists. Instead of trying to feel special by making everyone else out to be evil, they feel special by making everyone else out to be incompetent and stupid. Because god damnet, if you're not prepared for a zombie apocalypse what are you prepared for in life zoomgmgg. These guys are honestly so rational as to think that while the army doodes and guys with airplanes and tanks and shit will be the first ones to die, but they will persist in their boarded up house armed with a couple of pocket revolvers and machetes. It's ok though their will be a big tittied girl who, thanks to the zombie apocalypse, suddenly finds the nerd's years of strange anti social behavior a huge turn on!

Hmm. I'd call those guys zombie cultists rather than zombie fans. You can like the story, think there's something to it, and be a "fan" in some sense, without seriously believing that it could and would happen that way in real life.

It's the poor sad idiots who aren't smart enough to tell the difference between a vaguely* realistic modern fantasy setting and reality who are getting sucked into it...

*Yes, I said vaguely. We've got a ridiculously high concentration of military geeks on this website, it's almost the perfect forum for all the criticism of the world's militaries failing in World War Z. But for all that the story is vaguely realistic- it takes place in a world that any reasonable person can recognize as being like our own, where most actions taken bear at least some resemblance to how the average reader would expect people to react to an emergency. It's not happening in Bizarro World.

[Uncluttered]

So you're a complete fucking moron as well as Brooks?

No wonder the book sucked dick so hard.

It's fine that you don't like the book. Good on you. It wasn't written for you anyway.
Insult enclosed. I know you want to read it.
Spoiler

But Dude, please get a life. You have insulted me, and a good friend of mine whom you've never met, and never will meet in person. The part that bothers me the most, is how unoriginal it is. Please, this is SN.net, you need to step up.
If you are going to insult someone for being stupid, first you supply proof, then you slam it home with something better than "sucked dick"
You fail Trolling 101. Do we have to setup a special internet where you can look smart? I bet you'de even be weaksauce on a twilight discussion board.

Also. You really got to get out more. I have friends who are gay, and telling them they "suck dick" will either illicit a laugh for being so pathetic, or you get fired for hate speech. You need to edit you insult library before it gets you in trouble; should you ever leave your moms basement and enter the real world.

Frankly, SD.net is a great writing resource, especially for tech. Nobody puts sci-fi under the microscope like the Wong project at SD.net. It's a pity about the assholes like you. Normally, I would let this slide because it's "just the internet"... but I have a headache, it's hot here, my flight is late, and I "enjoy crushing bastards".

Despite being a "Moron" I seem to get along well with people.
I've talked stargate with Peter Deluise. (Incidently I've eaten food cooked for me by Dom Deluise.) Anne Bancroft bought the pajamas my son is wearing. I get to meet some amazingly smart brains at ILM and PIXAR. I've partied all night with Jennifer Garner and Beck (NOT GLEN) and the cast of SNL at a wrap party. I've talked scuba diving, global warming, and robotics with Alan Alda. My wife gets to talk about Wald kindergardens with Angelina Jolie when Brad Pitt et all comes over to schmooze with Max. Mel Brooks let our kids build a couch fort over him.
Lastly, I get to see ALL the movies before you do, on DRM free DVD, for free.

I'm not hollywood; I'm a scientist.
People enjoy being around me, because I listen, and give them good ideas when they ask what I think. I don't try to be a dick to everyone I meet. You should try it.


Since your critique was marginally about writing, I'll return the favor.

Your fucking mary sue fan fiction sucks ass.
You write like a mentally stunted fourth grader with no inner monologue.
I've read better stories written by small children playing "happy birthday robot".
You have no sense of moderation or subtlety.
The "Orange Star" had more character development, and was frankly, an accidental masterpiece of trolling compared to derivative shit you write.
The stuff you write can be outsourced to a call center in North Korea, and a book of mad libs.
You display a complete lack of critical thinking, or any thinking at all.
In Summation: Go fuck yourself and your misogynistic startrek based rape fiction you underdeveloped man child.

[Sinanju]

It's fine that you don't like the book. Good on you. It wasn't written for you anyway.
Insult enclosed. I know you want to read it.
<snip a long long rant>

What the hell are you blathering about? What fanfic did Sheppard write, and why does it have anything to do with the topic being discussed?

Also I like the random flailing in the middle about how you know somebody famous (because who on the Internet doesn't when they want to look impressive?) like that has anything to do with anything. Fuck, that whole rant was a mess.

Incidentally, could we get some proof that you actually had shit to do with World War Z? Or is this going to be like that Stewart Davies guy on the hate mail page who liked to make up titles for himself?

[Uncluttered]

It's fine that you don't like the book. Good on you. It wasn't written for you anyway.
Insult enclosed. I know you want to read it.
<snip a long long rant>

What the hell are you blathering about? What fanfic did Sheppard write, and why does it have anything to do with the topic being discussed?

Also I like the random flailing in the middle about how you know somebody famous (because who on the Internet doesn't when they want to look impressive?) like that has anything to do with anything. Fuck, that whole rant was a mess.

Incidentally, could we get some proof that you actually had shit to do with World War Z? Or is this going to be like that Stewart Davies guy on the hate mail page who liked to make up titles for himself?

Nah. I've been dealing with a shitbag who talks like him all day.
I'm much less pissed now that I've ranted.
Yes, I am who I say I am. No. I don't care enough about you to supply proof. Sorry. It's not you personally.
If I did, you would know who I am. The last thing I need is a fanboy following me home. And yes, fanboys will follow a person. They will follow you into the bathroom at a convention. It's a little disturbing.
This dude either writes, or lets others write mary sue fiction with him as a character. It's at least an endorsement. If I'm wrong I apologise.


Now, back to the topic of Worst Scifi tactics.
I nominate: The gould from Stargate. Though, to be fair, they are supposed to be bad.

[Samuel]

What the hell are you blathering about? What fanfic did Sheppard write, and why does it have anything to do with the topic being discussed?

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 5&t=138560

Of course it is not written to be serious or intelligent so I don't see how finding it lacking those qualities is surprising.

[Swindle1984]

Zombie fans are like conspiracy theorists. Instead of trying to feel special by making everyone else out to be evil, they feel special by making everyone else out to be incompetent and stupid. Because god damnet, if you're not prepared for a zombie apocalypse what are you prepared for in life zoomgmgg. These guys are honestly so rational as to think that while the army doodes and guys with airplanes and tanks and shit will be the first ones to die, but they will persist in their boarded up house armed with a couple of pocket revolvers and machetes. It's ok though their will be a big tittied girl who, thanks to the zombie apocalypse, suddenly finds the nerd's years of strange anti social behavior a huge turn on!

I also love it when Max Brook's fans use circular logic against critics of the book by claiming "SEE YOU'RE MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES THEY DO UNDERESTIMATING THE ZOMBIES".

Many "survivalists" are like this. There was one guy who argued with me that the army was incompetent...etc.
It turns out, he believes the meat in the supermarket won't go bad, and modern cows don't need any care to survive in Wyoming

Yeah, that type is definitely living in some sort of drug-induced fantasy land. These are the guys who know almost nothing about guns, the military, history, economics, or, well, anything really. And they're all pathological liars with massive egos, constantly bragging about how awesome they are.

I hang out with quite a few survival types, most of whom are former military and many of them are paramedics, police officers, or lawyers (apparently lawyers can afford the time and money to obtain the necessary skills and equipment. Who knew.). Unlike the assclowns who think owning an SKS, camouflage, and a dozen cans of chili makes you a "survivalist", they actually know what the hell they're doing. These are people who have generators, independent water supplies, food for a year or more, tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition, surgical gear, and other specialized equipment needed for long-term emergencies, and they all know how to use it. These are valuable members of their communities and they have the big picture in mind, not just looking out for number one.

Frankly, the fantasy land survivalists are potentially dangerous. They're poorly prepared in terms of resources and planning, and when everything goes to shit they're going to be the ones who get pissed off and start preying on others to survive. Thank God they're a tiny minority and almost completely overblown in media and pop-culture.

And yes, "real" survivalists have zombie plans too. Not because they have some post-apocalyptic fantasy or they really believe in zombies, but because if you're prepared for zombies, you're pretty much prepared for any potential disaster. Earthquake, hurricane, flooding, foreign invasion, terrorist attack, whatever, pretty much everything you planned for with zombies applies: how to evacuate (bug out), how to stay put (bug in), what to buy, what skills to obtain, etc. Zombies make the scenario and prepping entertaining rather than grim and depressing like, say, preparing for the USSR and USA to launch nukes at each other.

You'd be amazed at how many people you know who are closet survivalists. No, the people who went crazy over Y2K and 2012 don't count. Neither does the tool showing off his Desert Eagle and size XXL woodland cammies while bragging about his plan to fight off the Russkies. Those are idiots. There's a few who identify with any group.

[Uncluttered]

And yes, "real" survivalists have zombie plans too.

Reminds me of an organization I heard of called "Zombie Squad" they like to use the zombie theme to preach emergency preparedness. You know, like having bottled water, canned food, and a bugout bag in case of a Katrina style disaster.

I think most of them wouldn't be your hard core survivalist types. The Zombie theme just makes the who concept a little more fun.

Ahh. Heres the wikipedia article on them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_Squad

[Swindle1984]

And yes, "real" survivalists have zombie plans too.

Reminds me of an organization I heard of called "Zombie Squad" they like to use the zombie theme to preach emergency preparedness. You know, like having bottled water, canned food, and a bugout bag in case of a Katrina style disaster.

I think most of them wouldn't be your hard core survivalist types. The Zombie theme just makes the who concept a little more fun.

Ahh. Heres the wikipedia article on them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_Squad

Yeah, I know one or two guys affiliated with the group. Like I said, it's just a fun way to approach preparedness and the survival mindset.

Then you have the black helicopter crowd. They seem to hang out with the 9-11 troofers, 88 "ZOG conspiracy!" lunatics, and Bubba. I think everybody finds them obnoxious. They're like furries, in that they're largely harmless but five minutes of examining them reveals that they're bizarre deviants and possibly fucking insane.

[Uncluttered]

Then you have the black helicopter crowd. They seem to hang out with the 9-11 troofers, 88 "ZOG conspiracy!" lunatics, and Bubba. I think everybody finds them obnoxious. They're like furries, in that they're largely harmless but five minutes of examining them reveals that they're bizarre deviants and possibly fucking insane.

It took you five minutes to figure that out about furries?
Time to stop drinking.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, I am who I say I am. No. I don't care enough about you to supply proof. Sorry. It's not you personally...

All right.

That said, is there any reason I shouldn't just assume you are not who you say you are? I mean, if I'm not important enough for you to risk identifying yourself to me, it hardly matters if I don't believe you when you claim without supporting evidence to know famous people, right?

This dude either writes, or lets others write mary sue fiction with him as a character. It's at least an endorsement. If I'm wrong I apologise.

Where? What fiction, in what context?

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 5&t=138560
Of course it is not written to be serious or intelligent so I don't see how finding it lacking those qualities is surprising.

I know nothing about it... except that no one takes it seriously. So yeah, assuming that it reflects on Shep's character is kind of dumb. I'm not that big a fan of Shep's, but I don't think someone should assume he's a loser on the grounds that he participated in a collaborative obscene joke project.

And yes, "real" survivalists have zombie plans too. Not because they have some post-apocalyptic fantasy or they really believe in zombies, but because if you're prepared for zombies, you're pretty much prepared for any potential disaster. Earthquake, hurricane, flooding, foreign invasion, terrorist attack, whatever, pretty much everything you planned for with zombies applies: how to evacuate (bug out), how to stay put (bug in), what to buy, what skills to obtain, etc. Zombies make the scenario and prepping entertaining rather than grim and depressing like, say, preparing for the USSR and USA to launch nukes at each other.

Well, the trick is that those are the guys with a broadly realistic idea of what military weapons are capable of. And in a zombie-plan context, the smart ones don't spend all their time jerking off over the idea of the army being useless and lone survivors with katanas killing zombies left and right. Even the Zombie Survival Guide makes fun of that tendency (while exploiting it to some extent in other sections) by puncturing the "Rambo" model for how to go fight zombies.

[PainRack]

For those once again defending WWZ "no vehicles" tactics..... grow up.

A tank can carry several thousand rounds of ammunition for the MGs.Routinely. A MG team would be hard pressed to carry 2 thousand.
Fuel? Sure, keeping the armoured vehicle gassed up would be difficult, but you STILL going to need fuel to sustain your military combat machine and logistics. Pack animals? Please. There is a reason why armies moved away from them. Here's the main one, they actually need MORE logistic support to sustain than vehicles. Their sole advantage is that the maintenance of pack animals is lower tech than vehicles(well, in a smaller formation. The science of husbandry and vet medicine in the modern era, needed to sustained a large force is very high tech indeed).
So, if you're going to resort to pack animals or god forbid, human power, you're going to be stuck with a slow rate of advance and attack that's going to eat up more and more resources just to sustain itself. And of course, said pack animals and stuff? They're infinitely more vulnerable to zombies than an armoured truck. Not to mention, if you're in a truck, you can.... run away.

Its possible to envision a zombie future where militaries are going to be forced to give up maintaining their tanks due to a disruption of the world economy but to suggest one in which armoured vehicles aren't going to be used?

[Samuel]

They'd probably use armored cars. It isn't like zombies can punch through the armor and the lighter weight allows them to carry more supplies or use less fuel.

[Sea Skimmer]

Nah. I've been dealing with a shitbag who talks like him all day.
I'm much less pissed now that I've ranted.
Yes, I am who I say I am. No. I don't care enough about you to supply proof. Sorry. It's not you personally.
If I did, you would know who I am. The last thing I need is a fanboy following me home. And yes, fanboys will follow a person. They will follow you into the bathroom at a convention. It's a little disturbing.
This dude either writes, or lets others write mary sue fiction with him as a character. It's at least an endorsement. If I'm wrong I apologise.

Yeah, that happened about seven years ago, something of a continuation of the injokes by some of us who were a group on ASVS long before SDN ever existed. But you fucking wouldn't know anything about that. Now he mostly does extensive hands on research in US military archives, which I can help but notice you have not even remotely attempted to refute. Probably because whatever vague ‘advisor’ credentials you claim to have would just fail in comparison and and I highly doubt you ever looked up a single real figure.

Not that ammo or firepower or any of that even fucking matters though, because a Bradley could just squish zombies twenty hours a day anyway, plus a couple hours of refueling and hosing the blood off. So could a hummve, or any number of trucks or snowplows or buses with sheet metal spot welded on for that matter. Any zombie outbreak scenario that doesn’t involve the zombies appearing just about everywhere at the same time before any possible reaction can take place is just a fail.