Christopher Nolan's Inception

[Molyneux]

I think the ending isn't that ambiguous. I think it's obvious really, that he's still dreaming. Everything about the ending was too easy and wrapped up too neatly for it to be real.

I had the exact opposite reaction. Looked like the top was obviously about to fall over.

They showed the top twice, first the initial spin, during which it clearly slowed down; and then again in the last shot of the film. The thing is, the top was spinning faster and wobbling less at the start of the second shot than at the end of the first shot. And with Christopher Nolan, I doubt this is simply an oversight. Rather, it would seem that Cobb was in a dream which was a more realistic simulation, but still a dream. More realistic, because it was made by a better architect: Ariadne.

Ariadne was the only one who had seen Cobb's memories, and would know how to craft this dream; although she would not be able to realistically age his children, and so they are stuck looking as they did 2 years prior.

Incidentally, Ariadne is named after King Minos' daughter, who helped Theseus kill the minotaur and escape the labyrinth; which lends further support to this theory.

Except that Ariadne helped Theseus to escape the labyrinth. So the thematic naming would imply that she helped Cobb to actually wake up.

[YT300000]

Except that Ariadne helped Theseus to escape the labyrinth. So the thematic naming would imply that she helped Cobb to actually wake up.

But from what Mal/Cobb's subconscious said, the level they perceived to be reality was not in fact reality, so returning to there would not be an escape at all for him. Of course, it's entirely possible that she's wrong, and Cobb did end up back on the reality level; but then there is still the matter of the unaged children and the top.

In any case, it's suggested that Cobb ends up in a different place from the others: we see Ariadne awaken one level at a time, from limbo all the way back to the plane. But we see Cobb go straight from limbo to the plane. Of course, that could just be misdirection, like any other part of it...

[adam_grif]

but then there is still the matter of the unaged children and the top.

Isn't it possible that all depictions of the children were as he mentally aged them in his mind anyway? Memory is reconstructive, not idle playback, after all. Failing that explanation, the kids did age two years, their heights just stayed in direct proportion with each other, but other details we never saw (like their faces) had changed.

Anyway, I hate shit like this, and "IS THIS REALITY?!" endings are something I am so over.

Yeah, it's fascinating, also how she says at the end how he is the one that is dreaming. It's a reverse inception, he put the idea into her mind that the dream is not real in order to get her to wake up, but it worked too well and hence her suicide. His subconscious knows this, and she's a reflection of his subconscious guilt for what he did. So 'she' does the same thing in a sense to him, that he did to her. So he's still dreaming at the end IMO.

He is a part of Mal's dream, not the other way around, which is why it's her totem and he doesn't ever have one of his own.

Actually, neuroplasticity enables exactly this. There are plenty of people alive today who wouldn't be if the brain didn't have an ability to adapt itself to different tasks. It's not hard to imagine the best extractors are able to train their brains through prolonged use of the machine to make better use of their subconscious awareness. Like you say, we don't use all our brain anyway, and the brain isn't some immutable computer circuit where a part represents a mental GPU and cannot work physics engines, to carry on the analogy. And we also know that not everyone is going around with the expertise of Cobb and his team, so it may be quite the skill to hone.

People do indeed have that happen, but this is not without downsides. People who have recovered the use of some limb after brain damage can get weird things like you touch their foot but they don't feel it in their foot, they feel it in their nose. It also doesn't explain why Arianne, somebody who had never done it before still experienced the 20x dilation on her first go.

Being able to get more of it running in parallel would result in being able ot process more simultanously, as opposed to being able to process faster. Neuron connection speed is going to be a significantly limiting factor. I would buy this maybe if it was a 20-40% boost in subjectivity, which wouldn't be unknown given that some drugs can make you think a little quicker (people on adrenaline highs claiming to see things "in slow motion" etc), but this is a factor of 20 that stacks when you start dreaming about dreaming.

It's like running a virtual machine on a virtual machine and expecting the 3rd or 4th layer down to be faster than the initial computer that is simulating it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe they just perceive time to be longer, when it's not really longer. That explains how in dreams, as Cobb says, you don't really know how you got there or something. I mean, on screen we only saw Cobb and Juno talk for a few minutes in that market, even though Juno thought they were talking for thirty minutes. Dream sequences may take long to happen within the dream, but the hours/days/months/years in that dream might be highly condensed with all sorts of scene changes and cuts and what have you to summarize it. It may feel like years, but you don't REALLY live years in it, or at least you only live a few well-spaced moments of those years. Just like how, in a movie, the events depicted could've spanned for days/weeks/months/years even though the movie itself is just a couple of hours long!

[adam_grif]

That's how real dreams work, like I said. The movie explicitly states that you go 20x each level, and we had several minutes of screentime (the conversation between Arianne & Cobb with reality warping and stuff) when it was "one minute" in real life. We also had the slow motion over-the-edge scene running concurrently with quick cuts where the dude rigged up the elevator, interspersed with clearly-longer scenes in the snow-fortress.

If this was nothing but mental trickery, then the movie was being very dishonest, along with the characters talking about it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Does it matter? It's all about the perceptions of the dreamer, they perceive that more things happened in the lower layers of the dream.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The rules aren't that cut and dry, given Yusuf's original plan for a kick failed. In real dreams, not all events give you that "kick", and as someone mentioned before about playing with the dream world more, the idea was not to make it so obvious it's a dream, hence real world situations, given the original Mr. Charles gambit in a previous extraction failed, the subject realised he was dreaming, and fucked them seven ways from Sunday.

I also didn't really read too much into the going from limbo to waking in one step thing. But it could be a clue, or just something removed for sake of being concise since it's implied that Saito and Cobb shoot themselves to awaken, rather than it being shown. The bigger hint at it being a dream would be The Tourist managing something no one else could, being able to take being stuck in a dream state for decades, although Cobb had managed it before, it was somewhat intentional and he clearly has a better grasp on working outside of reality.

However, Aridane supposedly putting together a dream world Cobb would accept from her intimate viewings of his subconscious memories is plausible too, and if not literally making him awaken as per her name's etymology, she brought him "back to reality" with the catharsis that his final job allowed him.

[Havok]

The thing with the ending being a dream, is that Cobb obviously remembers how he got there. He wakes up on the plane, gets a ride from the airport before he gets to see his kids. And seriously, in 2010, no one sent him a picture of what his kids look like? C'mon. The whole kids age thing isn't anything to go on.

[RedImperator]

In other news, Inception has grossed over $300m internationally and is hanging in second place in the US box office. Hopefully, between this and Avatar, studios will be more encouraged to spend on big, original science fiction movies (at least when there's a big-name director attached to the project).

[Teebs]

I thought it was an excellent film. Had to watch it in Hungarian which made it hard/impossible to get some of the subtler points, but it was enjoyable and I liked the story.

My own opinion is that Cobb is still in a dream at the end, but that's no more than a feeling.

[Admiral Valdemar]

In other news, Inception has grossed over $300m internationally and is hanging in second place in the US box office. Hopefully, between this and Avatar, studios will be more encouraged to spend on big, original science fiction movies (at least when there's a big-name director attached to the project).

I think I know where you stand on what Hollywood is churning out now given the Yogi Bear thread. It would be nice if they did focus on more quality, rather than just... more, especially if it's craptacular.

Although I can't rate Avatar at the level of this wonderful film, I'd far rather see more harder or thinking sci-fi films out there written and executed like the best non-sci-fi dramas, than more popcorn bullshit. Or a thousand more comic book adaptations that aren't fresh like Kick-Ass.

[adam_grif]

Avatar

...

original

Riiight.

They'll be encouraged to make big science fiction perhaps, but Avatar is not really in the same league as Inception for originality, given that the plot was nearly identical to that certain other film, and the most notable thing about the "science" part was that it was generally hard. If anything it's proof that you don't need lots of originality to make it successful.

[Anguirus]

^ The similarity of Avatar to other films that take place in other settings is ridiculously overstated. You might as well dismiss Star Wars for its cribbing of Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress.

Avatar, Dances with Wolves, Disney's Pocahontas, whatever, they're all different takes on a similar outline that's simple and inspired by real-world situations ("going native" happened quite a bit). The mere fact that Avatar was not a sequel or an adaptation is pretty exceptional for Hollywood science fiction.

[adam_grif]

I'm not "dismissing" Avatar, I'm saying it's not very original. Not just the story. The characters aren't very original, the dialogue isn't very original, and the only thing that is somewhat original is Pandora, although unkown alien planet with strange lifeforms isn't exactly unheard of either. Pandora is only unique in that it is very fleshed out.

The reason Avatar was good was not because it was original, it was because the components are well integrated and the parts are all individually competent. Some of the acting is good, the soundtrack is appropriate, and the structure of the story is solid. Honestly, the only risky thing about the film was the insane budget it had.

If you want an example of a highly successful original SciFi movie to complement Inception, then you need look no further than District 9.

[Havok]

Just got back from my second viewing.

Yes, the children thing is not an issue. I think Nolan kept it ambiguous to go along with the final scene, but they certainly look old enough for the voices you hear on the phone. And if you listen, you can hear them speaking in about the same way.

And fucking hell...Shinzon. That's where the hell I recognize Eames from.

On second viewing though, I am convinced that the movie plays the way we see it. Cobb does indeed get to go back to his children.

[Stofsk]

Holy shit! I totally didn't see Shinzon in him.

[adam_grif]

The casting choices I noticed the most were The Scarecrow as the mark and, obviously, Michael Caine as Michael Caine.

[Havok]

You didn't notice that Saito/Wantanabee was the fake Ras Ahl Guhl in Batman Begins?

[adam_grif]

No, but now that you mention it I see it.

I wonder if he'll do the James Cameron thing and have a little stable of actors he draws from for his films.

[ray245]

Already did. Michael Caine has appeared in every Nolan film since Batman Begins.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Most directors tend to keep certain casting choices consistent after experience, or production crew. DiCaprio likes working with Scorsese for instance, Russell Crowe is often used by Ridley Scott while Denzel Washington works with Tony Scott, and then you have Harrison Ford with Spielberg/Lucas. Nolan always uses Wally Pfister for cinematography because his style matches his direction, like how Michael Mann uses Dante Spinotti or Spielberg uses Janusz Kaminski. Also, same with composing, since it's either David Julyan or Hans Zimmer for Nolan's stuff.

[adam_grif]

Already did. Michael Caine has appeared in every Nolan film since Batman Begins.

TDK doesn't really count since it's a sequel with literally the same characters, so it's "batman movies" then "Inception". Scarecrow guy is also like this because he had the cameo at the start of TDK.

EDIT:

Wait, crap, I forgot The Prestige existed.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm not "dismissing" Avatar, I'm saying it's not very original. Not just the story. The characters aren't very original, the dialogue isn't very original, and the only thing that is somewhat original is Pandora, although unkown alien planet with strange lifeforms isn't exactly unheard of either. Pandora is only unique in that it is very fleshed out.

The reason Avatar was good was not because it was original, it was because the components are well integrated and the parts are all individually competent. Some of the acting is good, the soundtrack is appropriate, and the structure of the story is solid. Honestly, the only risky thing about the film was the insane budget it had.

Under that criteria, then Inception probably wasn't that original either. I'm not "dismissing" Inception, I'm saying it's not very original. Not just the story. The characters aren't very original, the dialogue isn't very original, and the only thing that is somewhat original is the dream thinggies, although strange surreal false subjective manipulateable non-real unreal realities with snazzy-dressed people having well-choreographed martial arts gunfighting scenes isn't exactly unheard of either. Inception is only unique in that it is very dreamed out.

The reason Inception was good was not because it was original, it was because the components are well integrated and the parts are all individually competent. Some of the acting is good, the soundtrack appropriate, and the structure of the story is solid. Honestly, etcetera.

[Seriously. Dreams? Dreams within dreams? That's been done before. Heist films? That's been done before. People living in non-real unrealities and can't tell what is real and what isn't real? Done that too. The only thing different is how Inception was performed.]

[I personally believe that how a particular work is done by the actors/directors/cast and crew is far more important then whether there's already been a similar work with a similar premise, no matter how popular or obscure.]

[The only thing different between Avatar and Inception is that "white mang falls in loves with natives and defends them from imperialists" and "environmentalism!" are seen as lame pussy-ass limp-dicked slack-jawed liberal hippie claptrap *rollseyes*, whereas "is it real? am I still dreaming? what IS real? oooh dream world!" is seen as artsy fartsy philosophilizingwizingdelousing that artsy-fartsy philosophilizingwizingdelousinginginging fancy-shmancy folk dig.]

[I mean, shit, any movie with anti-militaristic, anti-imperialistic, anti-corporate, and pro-environment messages will INEVITABLY be mocked by internet fatties and B-3617 PeaceMiGgers who all go "let's vaporize their asteroids with turbolasers from orbit" or some lame shit like that. It's called reaction formation, upon seeing the director's attempts to make oppressed impoverished shitty natives sympathetic, these guys' orbital missiles immediately grow hard and they start wailing and bitching and blubbering about how it's stupid for fuckers to use stupid VTOL Huey helicopters in the Vietnavi war or some shit like that. ]

[Whereas these philosophizing dream world cyberspace unreal realty movies will get shitloads of amateur philosophers and teenage shits gawking and oooh-ing and ahhh-ing. I mean, shit, look at how everyone fawned over the Matrix movies and how there were so many sites anal-yzing the Matrix movies metaphysical metahuman metaphorical metamorphosizing metacritics because the philosophies were so deep.]

[Deep like my ass.]

Hahahahahahaha.

If you want an example of a highly successful original SciFi movie to complement Inception, then you need look no further than District 9.

Meh, previously asshole guy learns compassion after some witch turns him into an ugly hunchback beast, and he bites off Gaston's head and kills some Executive Outcomes mercenaries. Then he lives amongst the insectoid alien talking silverware and cutlery. It was good, but it wasn't that original.


EDIT:

Shit, man. I could shit a hundred turds out of my ass, all of them could be identical, but as long as those turds have "dreams! real! not real! metaphors! ambiguity! oh no! how do we know? i don't know how do we know do you know who knows?! red pill blue pill violet VIAGRA capsules!" in it, all the artsy fartsy people would ALL think it's ALL original even though all those turds that came out of my ass at th exact same time are exactly the same!

[adam_grif]

What is this


I don't even

[ray245]

Snip

With regards to Avatar, you can easily see parallels in Pocahontas. With regards to Inception , it is much harder to see find parallels in another film.