The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

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Bayonet
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Bayonet »

Deebles wrote: Humanoids on earth got smart much earlier than we have records of, and their second-life forms became the angels and orcs. The angels were tinkered with by someone, possibly the same someone who enabled humanoids to get a second life, and this someone added abilities not present in their base second-life forms,
There's some elegance to that, and it dodges a lot of evolutionary dilemmas.

Angels and demons are hexapods. The differentiation between hexapods and quadrapeds happens at the Class level, where Insecta and Mammalia are split. That's pretty far down the tree to talk about common ancestors. Moeover, there is no fossil record of hexapods other than insects. I think that tinkering with the mechanism may be the answer requiring the least hand waving. Since the Minos gate exists, there already is a mechanism established to account for the possibility.

We may never learn, in this literature, how it happened, thereby setting all up for another round of deism.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by darksoul »

Bayonet wrote: In the US in @, standard time and time zones were the outgrowth of the railroads and the telegraph. They needed a way to make the trains run on time and not crash into each other on time. Prior to that, each town had it's own time, generally derived in some way from solar time. It just didn't matter what time it was.
yes, that`s why I proposed a calendar based on days rather than hours or something. i dont remember any angel not dealing with first lifers or not belonging to the Stoners talking about minutes, hours, or weeks or months, for that matter. It may be that, as you said, when you are eternal, who gives a damn?
Bayonet wrote: Date keeping and the intricacies of the terran calendar were driven by the interaction of the terran seasons and the needs of farming. It was important to know when it was safe to plant in the Spring. With no seasons, it doesn't matter. You plant when you feel like it, and harvest when the crop is ripe, an observable condition. I would expect harvests to be staggered with relation to each other, at random.
I was referring actually more to record keeping of the crops rather to the actual influence of time on the harvesting. It wasn`t clear in the post, sorry about that.
what i mean is, that humans in heaven are actually the peasants of a feudal regime, so they pay to their liege (and church, hehehehe... this work has an irony bomb in every single corner you turn) with the product of their work. That needs to be kept track of, if only for accounting proposes. And we know there is accounting, given the remark of the master mason to Michael after one specially disastrous report. So, in order to keep your books in order, you need to keep track of time somehow, even if it is a greater granularity record than ours. So farmers would need to seed and harvest in regular intervals, in order for the products to be stored/distributed in even intervals, in order for then to be accounted for in a predictable manner. A chaotic system is possible, but is it desirable?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Stuart »

Arachnidus wrote:So, in essence, Heaven and Hell are their own landmasses sitting on a noneuclidean plane in a bubble of space? They're not merely planets in a noneuclidean bubble universe? I always liked the idea that Heaven and Hell were separate planets in the same universe(possibly even galaxy), but with the portal physics involved, that seems unlikely.
Heaven and Hell are seperate bubble-worlds in the universe that is the locked-pair partner to our own. There is one landmass within each bubble world that forms the habitable area (for humanoids) of that world. There are a lot more bubble worlds out there (roughly the same as the number of pebble-type planets in our universe). They will also be as diverse as our planets; for example some may be simply pockets of gas that one can't get out of - there is no outer surface to the gas. Trying to get to in simply takes one around in circles that bring one out somewhere else in the gas cloud (just like tunnelling down in the rock of Hell or Heaven brings one out somewhere else in said world).
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Arachnidus »

Stuart wrote:
Arachnidus wrote:So, in essence, Heaven and Hell are their own landmasses sitting on a noneuclidean plane in a bubble of space? They're not merely planets in a noneuclidean bubble universe? I always liked the idea that Heaven and Hell were separate planets in the same universe(possibly even galaxy), but with the portal physics involved, that seems unlikely.
Heaven and Hell are seperate bubble-worlds in the universe that is the locked-pair partner to our own. There is one landmass within each bubble world that forms the habitable area (for humanoids) of that world. There are a lot more bubble worlds out there (roughly the same as the number of pebble-type planets in our universe). They will also be as diverse as our planets; for example some may be simply pockets of gas that one can't get out of - there is no outer surface to the gas. Trying to get to in simply takes one around in circles that bring one out somewhere else in the gas cloud (just like tunnelling down in the rock of Hell or Heaven brings one out somewhere else in said world).
Ah, alright. Now all is clear. Kinda makes you wonder why the bubble worlds came to be as they did. Perhaps they're located in a sort of tesseract? Or phased out of our universe? The world you've set up is really fantastic, Stuart.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by FuzedBox »

Uncluttered wrote:Now. There is chance that some species of celestial buffalo will migrate from one zone to another when they eat the majority of the grasses in the area. They would stay close to drinking water, so they might migrate along a river, or around a sea. This mass migration, eating of grash, shitting on fields, will have a noticable effect on the entire eco system. Maybe after they leave, flowers bloom in the fields, bees go wild, etc.
The migration would be an inaccurate clock, but at least give a sense of time passing.
Did you get this concept from a Hitchhikers Guide book? An almost identical concept involving celestial buffalo/time rift was a major plot device (well, as much as a plot device as you can get with those stories) in one of the later books. A portal would open at the same time every year on a planet and buffalo would proceed to stampede across the plains and out another portal. I'd hardly be surprised if you were not influenced by that; those books are just so damn random.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Manthor »

Hi Stuart. I'd like to raise an issue with you over the portrayal of kitten.Do you think its a fair portrayal of transgendered individuals compared to cisgendered individuals (basically meaning us who identify as a single gender)?The basic stereotype can be offensive to the fringe audience of transgendered individuals,as is the case with the portrayal of kitten as a fulfillment of the transgendered, male-dominated, leather-wearing, BDSM stereotype?

It doesn't do justice to the community and simply furthers the stereotype of a community that already has trouble finding its own niche and integration into mainstream culture.

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Ilya Muromets »

kitten is based on a real person.
Image

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

As I recall, kitten was suggested as a character by another transgendered person on the board who knew the 'real' kitten personally.

I think Manthor has a valid point. The obvious counterpoint is that regardless of how she's portrayed in terms of sexual preference, she's also portrayed as making heroic contributions to the war effort. Whether that's a good enough counter or not, I don't feel qualified to comment on.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Stuart »

Manthor wrote:Hi Stuart. I'd like to raise an issue with you over the portrayal of kitten.Do you think its a fair portrayal of transgendered individuals compared to cisgendered individuals (basically meaning us who identify as a single gender)?The basic stereotype can be offensive to the fringe audience of transgendered individuals,as is the case with the portrayal of kitten as a fulfillment of the transgendered, male-dominated, leather-wearing, BDSM stereotype? It doesn't do justice to the community and simply furthers the stereotype of a community that already has trouble finding its own niche and integration into mainstream culture.
As Ilya says, kitten is inspired by a real person. Well, actually two people. The point is that having an unusual lifestyle doesn't prevent somebody from being quietly heroic and steadfast - or from gaining the respect and admiration of people around them.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by MatSci »

Image
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Brovane »

Stuart wrote:
Manthor wrote:Hi Stuart. I'd like to raise an issue with you over the portrayal of kitten.Do you think its a fair portrayal of transgendered individuals compared to cisgendered individuals (basically meaning us who identify as a single gender)?The basic stereotype can be offensive to the fringe audience of transgendered individuals,as is the case with the portrayal of kitten as a fulfillment of the transgendered, male-dominated, leather-wearing, BDSM stereotype? It doesn't do justice to the community and simply furthers the stereotype of a community that already has trouble finding its own niche and integration into mainstream culture.
As Ilya says, kitten is inspired by a real person. Well, actually two people. The point is that having an unusual lifestyle doesn't prevent somebody from being quietly heroic and steadfast - or from gaining the respect and admiration of people around them.
One of my favorite parts is when General Petraeus laments the fact that having one of his best sensitives being lead around on a dog leash by her boyfriend causes protocol problems. I can just imagine Kitten showing up at the Whitehouse to receive her Medal of Honor from the President and being lead into the ceremony room on a dog leash. The president then trying to hang the medal of honor on her neck and trying to avoid getting hung up on the BDSM collar at the same time. I can just imagine that causing some fits in the Whitehouse protocol office.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Andehtron »

MatSci wrote:Image


Awesome.......... :shock:
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by ray245 »

MatSci, are you the artist of that picture?
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by darksoul »

Stuart wrote:
Manthor wrote:Hi Stuart. I'd like to raise an issue with you over the portrayal of kitten.Do you think its a fair portrayal of transgendered individuals compared to cisgendered individuals (basically meaning us who identify as a single gender)?The basic stereotype can be offensive to the fringe audience of transgendered individuals,as is the case with the portrayal of kitten as a fulfillment of the transgendered, male-dominated, leather-wearing, BDSM stereotype? It doesn't do justice to the community and simply furthers the stereotype of a community that already has trouble finding its own niche and integration into mainstream culture.
As Ilya says, kitten is inspired by a real person. Well, actually two people. The point is that having an unusual lifestyle doesn't prevent somebody from being quietly heroic and steadfast - or from gaining the respect and admiration of people around them.
I must recognize that I have an (unfair, mostly) bias against gays and transgenders. I know there is no reason to have it, but it is there. Even if so, kitten is a likable character because she goes well beyond the call of duty in the hardest moments of war, where nothing was decided. I would no doubt feel uncomfortable having her and her boyfriend around, but that doesn`t make her less admirable.
So in the light of this making me like a character I wouldn`t stomach easily, I would say that it is a good enough portrait of small, niche populations, not only LGBT, but any other. I believe the author had made his point across pretty solidly.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by darksoul »

very good image!
a couple planes in the sky, or a harpy in the horizon... or just a volcano would do. It is awesome.
Although the first impression I got was bedouins in the desert... make the backpack needs more work, but the picture embodies the military power in hell theme that was talked pretty well.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by wickeddyno »

Angels and Demons can keep track of time by watching Earth, of course.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by wickeddyno »

The problem I have with that picture is that infantry action played very little role in the conquest of Hell.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

The cover picture isn't meant for literal accuracy; it's meant to express the theme of the work, and to grab someone's eye and make them think "this book might be interesting." Soldiers fighting demons might actually be better for this purpose than tanks fighting demons.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Uncluttered »

FuzedBox wrote: Did you get this concept from a Hitchhikers Guide book? An almost identical concept involving celestial buffalo/time rift was a major plot device (well, as much as a plot device as you can get with those stories) in one of the later books. A portal would open at the same time every year on a planet and buffalo would proceed to stampede across the plains and out another portal. I'd hardly be surprised if you were not influenced by that; those books are just so damn random.
No. I was more thinking of making a rudimentary clock using emergent flocking behavior. Much like how some species of firefly will sync up their flashing.

The buffalo I describe don't migrate through a portal. In a klein bottle world of mostly landmass, they might have a very long perpetual migration. The land area they live on if finite, so the grass they eat is finite. Once they've consumed all the grass, they must move or starve.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Uncluttered »

wickeddyno wrote:Angels and Demons can keep track of time by watching Earth, of course.
If they watched earth more often, they wouldn't have been caught off-guard and asskicked like they were.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by darksoul »

wickeddyno wrote:Angels and Demons can keep track of time by watching Earth, of course.
they could... except they didn.t. We took them by surprise because of it, precisely.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Uncluttered »

darksoul wrote:
wickeddyno wrote:Angels and Demons can keep track of time by watching Earth, of course.
they could... except they didn.t. We took them by surprise because of it, precisely.

It's THE major plot point.

I'm going to suggest to him, that he/she/it go back and re-read a bit before one of these basement dwellers troll all over him/her/it. :mrgreen:

The book is easier to read in the cleaned up version. Here's the link.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 5&t=134719

I haven't read the cleaned up version yet, but I suspect that the major plot points still stand. :D
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Nematocyst »

MatSci wrote:<image>
It needs some demons and if possible the Phelegethon river with the souls burning. And I need a change of pants.
And HUMANITY said: "it is our duty, not as men or women, not as black or white, but as HUMANS, to defend our species from utter annihilation and damnation. These Beings that for so long believed themselves masters of our destiny finally dropped their facade. HUMANITY will, as one, declare WAR on them. HUMANITY is master of its' own destiny. And we will fight to the last"
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by darksoul »

Nematocyst wrote:
MatSci wrote:<image>
It needs some demons and if possible the Phelegethon river with the souls burning. And I need a change of pants.
Now that would be awesome! forget about harpies, planes or daemons... the fucking burning river of souls with a skeleton climbing out. that`s all it takes.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty Up

Post by Nematocyst »

No, actually, the planes and harpies are a better idea. Why not have both?
I just realized that the soldiers walking besides the river of fire watching souls burning and doing nothing sends a message of indifference, IMO.
And HUMANITY said: "it is our duty, not as men or women, not as black or white, but as HUMANS, to defend our species from utter annihilation and damnation. These Beings that for so long believed themselves masters of our destiny finally dropped their facade. HUMANITY will, as one, declare WAR on them. HUMANITY is master of its' own destiny. And we will fight to the last"
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