Recruiting Space Marines too young

[The Yosemite Bear]

lets also forget they recruit from the lower levels of hive worlds where your average nine year old is a mass murderer, just to survive.

[PainRack]

For what its worth, i am pretty sure that all would be Imperial Space Marines are volunteers. Drafting is an efficient means of gathering large numbers of recruits but frankly there are not that many space marines and they are seen as mighty champions of the Imperium and Mankind, i can easily see plenty of young recruits running to Space Marine recruiting stations.

Zor

Nope. Dawn of War II novelisation, Space Wolves and etc all make it clear that while one can volunteer to be a Space Marine, there is also a form of "tithing" involved in which Space Marines would induct what they view as worthy candidates.

If you want to voluntarily fight for the Emperor the Imperial Guard is volunteer based (except for penal legions, drafting, and the entier Vostroyian Firstborn).

Nope. The IG codex makes it clear that its is the duty of every Imperial Governor to maintain a military and supply military units to the Imperium. How they choose to do so is their own business.
Their "best" may be only superlative when compared to others in the PDF, and given the lack of central command, who IS to tell that a governor isn't shipping off the bottom 10% as opposed to the top? They can't afford to send raw recruits routinely(apart from the drafted platoons) but the occasional "eh, I need to get rid of this regiment) attitude probably does arise every now and then.

[Black Admiral]

By the way - for someone with no time to engage in role playing games, and without a lot of time for reading, is there a quick-read novel or two in the Warhammer universe I could read? Not sure where to get started. Please tell me these books don't require a huge amount of mental energy to digest. I'm looking for bright lights, big explosions, and gratuitous violence.

In addition to Aaron's recommendations, I'd add Cadian Blood (Imperial Guard-centric, but with Navy and Astartes bits) and the Ultramarines series (one omnibus (collecting Nightbringer, Warriors of Ultramar and Dead Sky Black Sun) and three individual novels (The Killing Ground, Courage and Honour and The Chapter's Due).

Possibly Titanicus as well, but I'm not sure about that one - it fits the "big explosions and gratuitous violence" qualifier (as the book tagline sums it up, "The God-Machines go to war"), but does require some prior knowledge of the 'verse to fully understand bits of it.

[Chris OFarrell]

I'd also point out in the otherwise...poor...Dawn of War: Ascension book, the Blood Ravens who are supposed to be a more or less well adjusted and rational chapter, hold 'blood trails' to induct new aspirants.
In which they march all the volunteers (real ones) into an arena and tell them that they are not to leave until sundown. If they try, they die. Otherwise the Marines just stand there staring at them.
At least until they get the idea that they are supposed to start killing each other, and the survivors have the 'joy' of starting their training. The Marines watching may well call a halt to the killing once they think they have weeded out the weak or unsuitable.


I think really Marines from just about any chapter just look for those who are willing to kill and show some proficency at it. And/or people who are able to survive challanges, meaning they have an above average chance of surviving (and remaining perfectly sane and stable) through the horrific cybernetic/genetic upgrading that makes a human into a space marine,
They don't really CARE abuot their loyalty or stability, as they are going to brainwash the people anyway as part of their training.


On the topic of books, I would strongly suggest you stay the hell away from the Cain novels UNTIL you have read a few other novels. They are quite possibly the best 40K novels, but a lot of their value comes from having a solid understanding of the setting.

I'd suggest the Eisenhorn Omnibus. The first book is the best, the second good and the third not quite as good. But they are excellent for giving a really in depth look at the Imperium and the powers of Chaos who are its primary threat, as well as Imperial soceity in general (which has its grimdark, but as this book shows, there is also a lot of 'normal' in there as well) and the Imperium. They are solid reads and would serve as a good starting point for just about any Black Library books.

The Gothic War duology is also good, albeit a little heavy on 17th century ships of the line style, but still probably the best space battle books out there.

[Samuel]

Or, if pressed for cash...
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=90495

[Hawkwings]

I'd recommend Imperial Overlord's excellent fanfic In Memoria, actually. I'd compare it to the Eisehorn Omnibus in style; you get to see a lot more of the Imperium since you are following an Inquisitor and his adventures, rather than just the front lines of war.

On an unrelated note, why the hell isn't In Memoria in the finished/cleaned up subforum?

[OsirisLord]

I find it amusing that we're discussing the implications and morality of Space Marines recruiting pre-teens, when George Lucas has made it pretty explicit the acceptable Jedi recruitment age is less then two years old. Which I always wondered what they would have done with Anakin if they won't train him. Just let this possibly dangerous untrained Force user out in the world.

At least Space Marines have the courtesy to let their recruit's balls drop before drafting them into a monastic life of endless war and brutal training.

[Ghost Rider]

One should note, there is no real method to when a SM trainee is drawn? What we read in the sourcebooks is basically the Ultramarines' method rather then oh...the Blood Angels or the Space Wolves?

Even then they give the buffer of 10-14 and picking essentially killers. Hell, one Horus Heresey book says it best; Space Marines are sanctioned killers.

[Hawkwings]

I read somewhere that the Ultramarines hold a sort of athletic competition on Ultramar, and the winners are picked to become Space Marines. The ones that do the best after those people are fast-tracked in the Ultramar PDF. Of course, the Ultramarines are one of the nicest when it comes to this sort of stuff, plus there's the fact that they govern their own planet.

[Black Admiral]

That's not quite it, but close. Since the Ultramar Realm has universal military service - including in the Youth Defence Auxilia - the Smurfs skim off the best of each world's young men for recruitment to the Chapter.

Of course, they are tightly involved in rulership of the Ultramar Realm - a position as overseer of one of the worlds contained therein is a sinecure given to a veteran Ultrasmurf who's too badly injured to continue serving in battle, but not so badly as to be fatal (or requiring internment in a Dreadnought sarcophagus).

[OsirisLord]

One should note, there is no real method to when a SM trainee is drawn? What we read in the sourcebooks is basically the Ultramarines' method rather then oh...the Blood Angels or the Space Wolves?

Even then they give the buffer of 10-14 and picking essentially killers. Hell, one Horus Heresey book says it best; Space Marines are sanctioned killers.

Once you get past all the pomp and patriotic trimmings, that's what a soldier is. Someone who is sanctioned by the government to kill people.

[Night_stalker]

One should note, there is no real method to when a SM trainee is drawn? What we read in the sourcebooks is basically the Ultramarines' method rather then oh...the Blood Angels or the Space Wolves?

Even then they give the buffer of 10-14 and picking essentially killers. Hell, one Horus Heresey book says it best; Space Marines are sanctioned killers.

Generally each chapter varies how they pick their future Space Marines. As I recall, the Space Wolves go and pick up people who have impressed them with their fighting ability, even if they've fallen in battle. The Blood Ravens do trials to ensure they get only the best fighters, and those who can survive changing alliances on the battlefield. The Blood Angels have violent trials, then brutal training. Starting to see a pattern here? Their exact methods may vary, but generally it "Violent trials with low survival rates, then gene-seed implants which is even lower survival rates". Morally it's not sound, but they don't really have a alternative. I mean, consider where they are. Also, why has no one commmented on how the Schola Progenium basically indoctrinates kids into Commissars, Adeptus Sorotias, Stormtroopers, and even Imperial Assassins?

[Samuel]

Also, why has no one commmented on how the Schola Progenium basically indoctrinates kids into Commissars, Adeptus Sorotias, Stormtroopers, and even Imperial Assassins?

They are more impersonal. The Imperium needs a certain number of such individuals on a constant basis who are of guarenteed trustworthyness and Schola Progenium provides. That and they don't generally kill potential recruits. That and given the quality of life in many places such a job is one they would take anyway.

[NecronLord]

Their "best" may be only superlative when compared to others in the PDF, and given the lack of central command, who IS to tell that a governor isn't shipping off the bottom 10% as opposed to the top? They can't afford to send raw recruits routinely(apart from the drafted platoons) but the occasional "eh, I need to get rid of this regiment) attitude probably does arise every now and then.

That's what the Arbitrators are for.

No, seriously, that's one of their primary functions, putting governors that shirk their tithes to death.

[Eviscerator]

*scratches head - but isn't the intended result people who can do single-handed battle for almost an hour against the Enemy, whatever they may be?

If you conducted single-handed battle for almost an hour against Police anywhere, you dont get medals, u get something else.

Im surprised no one has recalled
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy

Salient points
grew up on farms

tried to enlist in the military, but the services rejected him for being under age

tried to have him transferred to a cook and bakers' school

baby-faced youthfulness

and finally:
Audie Murphy received 33 US medals, plus five medals from France and one from BelgiumIt has been said that he received every US medal available at the time; 5 of them awarded more than once.

His MOH citation basically = single-handed battle for almost an hour

[Eviscerator]

For what its worth, i am pretty sure that all would be Imperial Space Marines are volunteers. Zor

'
They might volunteer for the Trials (whatever form it may take), and you may pass, but according to Angels Of Darkness: Once u pass through the door: it's a one shot deal.

One youth upon seeing the Pre-Enlistment Medical Checkup wanted to go home to daddy so he was shown The Other Door which "stretched off into the darkness" and "was littered with old bones, knee-deep in places".

And the Friendly SM Recruiter said it was too late to change your mind, your life will be full of misery and pain and the return would doom his family.

Having said that, the Friendly Neighbourhood SM Recruiter (who will save us all)TM, reached out and snapped his neck.

Teh SM would tell his people a half-truth: he died after his trials and he pussied out after seeing the Doctor.

To reach this other room you press a hidden switch and the door has no visible join. One way or the highway, Space Marines.

[Simon_Jester]

To some extent that may depend on the chapter; some are "darker" than others or have more of a cultish approach that encourages them to do that kind of thing. But in general it's true: there's generally at least one step in Space Marine recruitment where refusing to continue down the path to becoming a Space Marine is death.

[PainRack]

I find it amusing that we're discussing the implications and morality of Space Marines recruiting pre-teens, when George Lucas has made it pretty explicit the acceptable Jedi recruitment age is less then two years old. Which I always wondered what they would have done with Anakin if they won't train him. Just let this possibly dangerous untrained Force user out in the world.

At least Space Marines have the courtesy to let their recruit's balls drop before drafting them into a monastic life of endless war and brutal training.

Both Connor, myself and any other number of veteran SW posters in this thread had commented on this before. Jedi indoctrination, rigidity, inability to truly understand compassion and love other than in an idealistic form.....

Hell. Note that this is literally a reflection of the Space Marines bit here too. Jedi can't relate to normal people, because they haven't led normal human lives as they were recruited and indoctrinated too early. Hence, the whole freaking Jedi bit in AOTC.

That's what the Arbitrators are for.

No, seriously, that's one of their primary functions, putting governors that shirk their tithes to death.

Yeah, that is their function. But how on god green earth do you tell that a governor is occasionally sending off ill-trained soldiers as opposed to his elite PDF units?
This is the same Imperium that doesn't know how many troops it has under arms due to the vast scale of conflict, death and recruitment. The same Imperium that relies entirely on Comissionars to retain central indoctrination and loyalty for the regiments.

That's not quite it, but close. Since the Ultramar Realm has universal military service - including in the Youth Defence Auxilia - the Smurfs skim off the best of each world's young men for recruitment to the Chapter.

Of course, they are tightly involved in rulership of the Ultramar Realm - a position as overseer of one of the worlds contained therein is a sinecure given to a veteran Ultrasmurf who's too badly injured to continue serving in battle, but not so badly as to be fatal (or requiring internment in a Dreadnought sarcophagus).

?Isn't the Youth Defence Auxilia teenagers of approximately 14-18 year old? That's quite late in the cycle.

[andrewgpaul]

That's what the Arbitrators are for.

No, seriously, that's one of their primary functions, putting governors that shirk their tithes to death.

Yeah, that is their function. But how on god green earth do you tell that a governor is occasionally sending off ill-trained soldiers as opposed to his elite PDF units?
This is the same Imperium that doesn't know how many troops it has under arms due to the vast scale of conflict, death and recruitment. The same Imperium that relies entirely on Comissionars to retain central indoctrination and loyalty for the regiments.

Presumably, random spot checks of various PDF units. In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, ISO inspectors carry shotguns and body armour.

If you conducted single-handed battle for almost an hour against Police anywhere, you dont get medals, u get something else.

The older fluff does state that sometimes the Marines miss out in the really good recruits because by the time they hear the reports, they've already been executed.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Imperium maintains Administratum and Munitorum officials on the local (system) level. Both organizations are largely organized along system-subsector-sector-segmentum-Imperium levels, with problems being referred to the next higher level of command as needed (CG in a war.) I'm sure that within a system/subsector/sector the Munitorum for example knows how many troops (roughly) they have on hand for an emergency, because they are supposed to know that. But the Munitorum in a sector in a diffrent segmentum will not have that niformation. Hell the Segmentum level may or may not have as accurate information, nevermind at the Imperium (EG High Lords) level. Especially since the higher the level one goes up, the less hands on management there tends to be (you usually get broad dictates that are left to the lower levels to work out on their own.)

Planets (important ones at least) seem to have at least PDF/Enforcer garrisons to enforce those requirements, as NL said. They have broad authority to operate on this (They can commandeer Navy, Guard, Defence Force or other units as well for their own use, like happened in Execution Hour.) The Navy itself has some limited ground offensive capability (each ship carries thousands/tens of thousands of crew after all, a fair fraction of that can be deployed for limited conflict.) On top of that some planets (again at least important ones) also seem to have at least one IG garrison of their own in many case (as of 5th edition at least the minea hive world shown for example) which can also provide force to keep a governor on the up and up (Actually I expect garrison duty to be a rather common fate for most of the annual IG raisings - it's basically the Munitourm's way of stockpiling troops for when they need them since they can't risk keeping them on ship all the time, and when a conflict does break out they (hopefully) have a reserve of forces.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Re: the original topic, this might be relevant - I just posted it a few days ago:

Other scholars claim that the flaw lies in the process that is used to create each new generation of Blood angels. They claim it has crept in down the generations because the Blood Angels use the process known as Insanguination to activate the gene-seed. To understand the arguments here one needs to know something abou the processes used originally to create the Space Marines of the First Founding.

All Space Marine Chapters use gene-seed to trigger and control the processes that transform an ordinary mortal into a Space Marine. The gene-seed is encoded with all the information needed to reshape ordinary cell clusters into the special organs Space Marines possess, and it contains viral machiens which rebuild the body to the template contained within the gene-seed. However, from the beginning there was no set way to activate the gene-seed.

Indeed, at the time when the Chapters of the First founding were created, the process was still highly experimental and many different ways of controlling and managing the change were tried. This led to the Space Wolves using the ritual known as Blooding, the Imperial Fists using the process known as the Hand of Faith, and the Blood Angels using Insanguination.

The process was originally triggered by injecting Aspirants with tiny samples of their Primarch's own blood. This practice of course ended with the death of Sanguinius. However, some of his blood was kept and preserved in the Red Grail. The living blood could not be kept this way for long and it wsa injected into the veins of the Sanguinary Priests. In this way they became living hosts to the power of Sanguinius. To this day, drinking the collected blood of the assembled Sanguinary Priests form the Red Grail is part of the ritual of creation of all Blood Angels Priests.

It is from these Priests that the blood ist aken to begin the transformation of Aspirants into Space Marines. It is possible that over the countless generations since the time of the Heresy these cells have mutated, slowly at first but more quickly in recent years, and that errors in replication have resulted in the Flaw.

As you can see, the process of making a Space Marine can vary dramatically from Legion to Legion.. and presumably those changes may even extend (nowadays) from Chapter to Chapter. The gene-seed itself is highly different from Legion to Legion (and again probably now from Chapter to Chapter, due to mutation post-Heresy) and obviously it interacts differently with each person (EG Space Wolf vs Ultramarine vs Blood Angel.) It stands to reason that qualtiies like "recruitment age" can be one of those variable parameters - some gene seed probably can be accepted by "older" initiates, while in others you need to recruit much younger (and more adaptable) persons.

The indoctrination angle (as others have pointed out) covers the rest of it probably, including the psychopath angle (although I will point out that its a given degree of "psychopath" - Like in all other things, individual Chapters look for different qualities in their recruits - again as others have pointed out - and some literally do look for psychos. OF course, there's also the "bias" against Space Marines that points that out as well - EG the IG General from Crimson Tears and his attitudes towards the Astartes. But since some Chapters are known to recruit ganger juves from hives - gang kids basically - I tend to adopt a rather loose interpretation of "psycho".)

Edit: You can (in theory) implant older than early teens, but the dangers/problems associated with doing so increase the older the recruit. The DoW novels had someone in their (I think) early twenties who was implanted and it (mostly) succeeded, save for some nasty mutations, but I also understand that there's an increased risk of death the older the Marine is. I think the idea behind that is that the younger they are, the more "malleable" and adjustable the body is (the gene-seed is basically, I think, hijacking the development going on in puberty to do what it wants.) The later into puberty one starts, the more difficult (and riskier) those changes probably are to inflict on the body (you basically have to undo what was already done and re-do it, which could be more than the body can stand. Or something to that effect.)

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I just wanted to welcome Broomstick to our little group. Yay! Soon OSF really will become the "40k 'n' shit" subforum!

Broomstick, I recommend Eisenhorn or some short stories to start out with, and then, when you become familiar with the universe, it's time for Ciaphas Cain! Those really are the best books in the whole series.

[Eviscerator]

As you can see, the process of making a Space Marine can vary dramatically from Legion to Legion..

So it is, but broadly speaking - the 1st born son of so-and-so intellectual who has never held or thought of a gun in his whole life isnt what they are looking for , is it? They are also not picking up refugees from plague worlds and making them marines. They are most certainly NOT recruiting people who faint at the sight of blood.

To distill it down to a few points:
1) survivability
2)independence

Is what they are looking for and you get that in spades on jungle and hive worlds - which is why they go there to recruit.The average tribesman if plonked down into "Polite Society" isn't going to know what knife or glass to use but he sure can tell u 25 ways to skin an ork and where to aim for.

[Eviscerator]

Yet, such brutal hand to hand combat would require children to look in the eyes of grown men and kill them. It gets more disturbing once you consider that Space marines would want children who has excelled in the art of war, suggesting that these have killed tens of other men and creatures. Or have performed some other impossible feat.

The mission is to produce Space Marines: they either go out to fight or to defend.
Ergo: u dont want pansy waists who faint when an ork looks hard at them, considering also "Impossible Feats" and "Killing" is something which an SM is expected to do.

Barring except perhaps the Custodes: even the Ambassadors sent around the galaxies are all tried and tested warriors: not freshly minted Scouts with VR Simulation experience (MGS2 reference here).

Meek Civilian kills man: big news. SF soldier killing a squad (in combat): Move along, nothing to see here.

[andrewgpaul]

As you can see, the process of making a Space Marine can vary dramatically from Legion to Legion..

So it is, but broadly speaking - the 1st born son of so-and-so intellectual who has never held or thought of a gun in his whole life isnt what they are looking for , is it? They are also not picking up refugees from plague worlds and making them marines.

The Blood Angels do.