HR 5741 A bill that won't make it off the ground.

[Alyrium Denryle]

See; this has been part of draft systems in the civilized world ever since the disastrous experience of many countries in the First World War, where in the name of egalitarianism, a lot of really smart scientists, engineers, and skilled machinists joined up in August of 1914; and then...died in the mud of the Western Front; causing a shortage of skilled workers later on in the war.

If I remember properly, the guy that came up with the periodic table died in the trenches in ww1. It was either him or some other early chemist.

[Questor]

If I remember properly, the guy that came up with the periodic table died in the trenches in ww1. It was either him or some other early chemist.

Must have been some other chemist. Mendeleev was russian and in the 19th century.

[Ritterin Sophia]

My own, somewhat controversial view, is that conscription is a human rights violation, tantamount to slavery, and should be prohibited via a constitutional amendment (and additionally, the US should, in cooperation with international partners, apply trade sanctions on countries such as Switzerland that have active conscription programs; alas, that's not going to happen).

So wait, you're saying that a country should not be allowed to make people who benefit under it's existence work for that benefit when it's threatened?

[Aaron]

It gets even funnier when you realize that small countires like Finland, Israel and Switzerland would likely not be able to defend themselves without it.

[Executor32]

If I remember properly, the guy that came up with the periodic table died in the trenches in ww1. It was either him or some other early chemist.

You're thinking of Henry Moseley, who discovered that an element's atomic number was not just an arbitrary number assigned by chemists' intuition, but was experimentally verifiable using the element's X-ray spectra. This led to the discovery by Bohr that it was the positive charge of the nucleus, and therefore the number of protons. Moseley was killed in the Battle of Gallipoli.

[Ritterin Sophia]

It gets even funnier when you realize that small countires like Finland, Israel and Switzerland would likely not be able to defend themselves without it.

Yeah, Finland, Israel, and Switzerland don't have a high enough population to maintain an effective volunteer military given that the average number you can expect to volunteer is only 1% of the population. America has 300 million people and can expect ~1 million armed services personnel, Canada has 30 million and can expect ~300k. Finland could expect ~50k, Israel and Switzerland could expect about ~70k each. That's not a whole lot when you look at the enemies they could expect to fight.

[Knife]

My own, somewhat controversial view,

Well, at least you're smart enough to know that your view isn't the best one around.

is that conscription is a human rights violation, tantamount to slavery,

Good god and gravy, how do you figure that?

and should be prohibited via a constitutional amendment (and additionally, the US should, in cooperation with international partners, apply trade sanctions on countries such as Switzerland that have active conscription programs; alas, that's not going to happen).

I really don't think you've thought this through.

Edit:

I see I'm not the only one. So, if this devolves into something I'll bow out so as not to dogpile. That said, I would very much like to see/read your reasoning on conscription=slavery.

[Sea Skimmer]

If conscription is slavery then so are taxes, indeed taxes would be far closer to slavery since you don’t escape them after two years, taxes are theft of your labor until death!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

If I remember properly, the guy that came up with the periodic table died in the trenches in ww1. It was either him or some other early chemist.

You're thinking of Henry Moseley, who discovered that an element's atomic number was not just an arbitrary number assigned by chemists' intuition, but was experimentally verifiable using the element's X-ray spectra. This led to the discovery by Bohr that it was the positive charge of the nucleus, and therefore the number of protons. Moseley was killed in the Battle of Gallipoli.

And was a volunteer and a commissioned officer.

[Alyrium Denryle]

If I remember properly, the guy that came up with the periodic table died in the trenches in ww1. It was either him or some other early chemist.

Must have been some other chemist. Mendeleev was russian and in the 19th century.

Yeah, Executor was right. I was pulling from a decade old memory

Still, I was not that far off. Go me.

My own, somewhat controversial view, is that conscription is a human rights violation, tantamount to slavery, and should be prohibited via a constitutional amendment (and additionally, the US should, in cooperation with international partners, apply trade sanctions on countries such as Switzerland that have active conscription programs; alas, that's not going to happen).

Yeesh, and I thought I took a hard line on the issue. Look, I would agree with you when said conscripts would be expected to fight in a foreign war over political issues or resources. Namely, a war in which the opponent is not an existential threat to the nation in question or its allies/not trying to take over europe. The military of Switzerland is there for one purpose. To maintain Switzerland and its Neutrality. They cant do that with just a volunteer military for the reasons stated. The same can be said for the Israeli military and the Finns. At the very minimum they need people who have put their time in that they do not have to train in the event that they are invaded so they can mobilize their large reserve force. Having the majority of your population go through military training and two years on active duty before being put into the reserve is a good option for those goals, and it is in the best interests of the entire population that it is the case.

[Zed]

I was wondering - is the bill suggested in the O.P. advocating male draft only, or does it include women? I've always been a tad peeved at the sexism involved in most drafts.

[General Zod]

I was wondering - is the bill suggested in the O.P. advocating male draft only, or does it include women? I've always been a tad peeved at the sexism involved in most drafts.

You could always read the bill for yourself, which the OP actually links to.

[Chirios]

You need a strong tradition to pull off something like Rangel wants. For example, members of the British royal family are expected to serve and fight if there's a war (in practice, of course, no sane commander will send a prince into the front if he values his career),

Harry was sent to the front lines secretly until the papers found out.

[Edward Yee]

If I recall correctly, Prince Harry had threatened to resign from the Army unless allowed to deploy to Afghanistan with his unit.

[PeZook]

If I recall correctly, Prince Harry had threatened to resign from the Army unless allowed to deploy to Afghanistan with his unit.

Yeah, he had to use threats to get deployed. A common mook would need to do it the other way around

And, of course, it does show the stuff I was talking about (strong tradition) at work here.

[Edward Yee]

If I recall correctly, Prince Harry had threatened to resign from the Army unless allowed to deploy to Afghanistan with his unit.

Yeah, he had to use threats to get deployed. A common mook would need to do it the other way around

And, of course, it does show the stuff I was talking about (strong tradition) at work here.

Not surprisingly it was more likely he who could "get away" with this than Prince William due to being a step further down the line of succession (in the sense of a more senior MoD officer or official 'relenting'), and even then he was reportedly assigned a personal security detachment (PSD) from the SAS.

[Ritterin Sophia]

and even then he was reportedly assigned a personal security detachment (PSD) from the SAS.

Well fuck, I know he had to have been getting shit from his mates for that.

Motherfucking SAS following him around like nannies.

[Broomstick]

ADDITION: This just crossed my mind, so I'll ask it here. I know that women aren't required to sign up for the Selective Service (the draft), but are they allowed to opt-in if they wish to?

I was wondering - is the bill suggested in the O.P. advocating male draft only, or does it include women? I've always been a tad peeved at the sexism involved in most drafts.

The draft in the US has been strictly men-only. The current selective service registration is also men only. No, there is no opt-in for women. Women can volunteer for military service, of course, but they can't be drafted.

Frankly, I think it should apply equally to all genders. If you want the perks of citizenship you should also shoulder the responsibility of same. While there are military jobs women can do on account of biology (we've had that discussion before) they are quite capable of filling many other roles, which would enable a larger pool of men for those positions that really do require male muscle.

Also - by making a draft equally likely to scoop up women as men you would drastically reduce the chances of it actually being instituted in the US, at least with our current society.

[PeZook]

I disagree that a draft should include women. Let's face it: the draft is supposed to be a mechanism used when a society faces a grave threat to its existence. Such threats have a nasty habit of grinding up a lot of the soldiers involved.

Post-war demographic disruption is minimized if young females of child bearing age don't get maimed and killed en masse.

[Ace Pace]

I disagree that a draft should include women. Let's face it: the draft is supposed to be a mechanism used when a society faces a grave threat to its existence. Such threats have a nasty habit of grinding up a lot of the soldiers involved.

Post-war demographic disruption is minimized if young females of child bearing age don't get maimed and killed en masse.

I have no idea what makes you think it's impossible to have an army with females serving in it that doesn't involve sending them to the front lines. I assume you are aware that a majority of a modern force spends its' time behind the front lines?

[Alyrium Denryle]

I disagree that a draft should include women. Let's face it: the draft is supposed to be a mechanism used when a society faces a grave threat to its existence. Such threats have a nasty habit of grinding up a lot of the soldiers involved.

Post-war demographic disruption is minimized if young females of child bearing age don't get maimed and killed en masse.

I sort of agree. I can definitely see and could support women being "drafted" into the gaps left in certain sectors of the economy left vacant by men during the draft. But you are right. Unfavorable alteration of sex ratio and age structure via sending your young women to the meat grinder is a demographic collapse waiting to happen.

[PeZook]

I have no idea what makes you think it's impossible to have an army with females serving in it that doesn't involve sending them to the front lines. I assume you are aware that a majority of a modern force spends its' time behind the front lines?

Yes, I suppose you could easily have women serving in support roles.

However, being in theater but "behind the front line" doesn't quite mean you're not going to get killed during a major war. There aren't quite that many support positions that are completely risk-free, as air power, partisans infiltrators and deep breakthroughs will still hunt logistical convoys, HQs, supply dumps, artillery positions, etc.

[Cecelia5578]

I disagree that a draft should include women. Let's face it: the draft is supposed to be a mechanism used when a society faces a grave threat to its existence. Such threats have a nasty habit of grinding up a lot of the soldiers involved.

Post-war demographic disruption is minimized if young females of child bearing age don't get maimed and killed en masse.

I sort of agree. I can definitely see and could support women being "drafted" into the gaps left in certain sectors of the economy left vacant by men during the draft. But you are right. Unfavorable alteration of sex ratio and age structure via sending your young women to the meat grinder is a demographic collapse waiting to happen.

I'm at least partially sympathetic to the draft for the reasons Rangel is, plus I think having more members of the military from urban areas/the coasts would be healthier than the Southern dominated military we have.

I'll admit to not thinking of the demographic consequences of large numbers of women getting killed, but I think in order to be truly fair and just a draft would have to include everyone, regardless of gender or class, and it would inevitably end up being neither of those.

There are a lot of jobs in the military that don't require 2 years of training or anything close to that(not all combat arms either) but they are hardly the most glamourous or sought after.

[Edward Yee]

I'm at least partially sympathetic to the draft for the reasons Rangel is, plus I think having more members of the military from urban areas/the coasts would be healthier than the Southern dominated military we have.

Ironically this is also an argument that's been used against excluding ROTC from colleges/universities due to DADT, but I'd think that the main reason for the demographic skew was differences in work opportunities as well as cultural/political differences (i.e. in foreign policy / the legitimacy of enlisting?).

I'll admit to not thinking of the demographic consequences of large numbers of women getting killed, but I think in order to be truly fair and just a draft would have to include everyone, regardless of gender or class, and it would inevitably end up being neither of those.

Admittedly such for me is reason enough not to go with a draft.

There are a lot of jobs in the military that don't require 2 years of training or anything close to that(not all combat arms either) but they are hardly the most glamourous or sought after.

Another issue as well, as some apparently MOSes rely on "sounding cool" for recruiting purposes, i.e. the little brouhaha over PsyOps being renamed military information support operations (MISO)...

[Cecelia5578]

I was thinking, at least as far as the American Army is concerned, such jobs like paralegals (I don't think they are called that exactly) chaplains assistants, all of the (speaking from experience) quartermaster MOSs at Ft Lee, etc. You could easily get two years worth of conscripted service out of those jobs.