The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Simon_Jester]

Heaven is the perfect place for mass-scale agriculture; why screw it up by putting industry there if you can help it?

[Jusu]

Great chapter. Also, lovely end to the chapter, with the change in the Marine Hymn's lyrics.

[Eddie Van Helsing]

Things to slowly introduce to the primitive screwheads in heaven (and hell)2. Bicycles:Both for screwhead use, and for export. Earth is dealing with petroleum shortages anyhow. IIRC The supply in hell hasn't ramped up yet.

You'd have to substantially redesign American cities and suburbs. Who in the US is going to want to spend more than an hour riding a bike to work? For most people, that would mean moving to within 5-15 miles of one's workplace.

3. Watches: Because of the whole clock discussion. Also, mechanical watches built with cheap labor might be a good export to earth. This will capitalize on the patience of the heavenites, and the metalurgy of the hellions. Deliberately encourage cooperation.

Given that people in the US seem to prefer to use cellphones and other handheld computing devices to tell time, would there be a market on Earth for mechanical watches made in Hell or Heaven once the novelty has worn off?

5. Movies: There is not much to do in heaven and hell. There are going to be big movie fans. Movies will pacify them, and introduce them to earth culture. Worn out temples to Yahweh can be converted.
Eventually, they are going to want to make their own movies.

I think Stuart already made a reference to demons playing roles in horror movies. Another member drew fanart of Drippy that made him look like a slimmer cousin of Hellboy.

6. Music: Same as with the movies. Use the temples as venues.

It's going to be de rigeur for heavy metal bands to have demon drummers. I wonder what Therion, Nightwish, or Within Temptation would do with a chorus of angels.

7. Marijuana/hemp: Easy to grow,exporable. makes people relaxed. Now that all the religious nuts on earth are out of power, You can have a sensible drug policy. Hemp products are exportable. Even if superior products on earth exist, what hippy can resist organic weed from heaven? That's bicycle money right there.

Wouldn't Michael-Lan-Michael, assuming he remains in power or alive, try to corner the market?

8. Televized sports: Now that religion is no longer the opiate of the masses..

Hell, you could probably get the angels to play a aerial variation of lacrosse once they get over themselves. It might resemble Quidditch, but they wouldn't need brooms.

9. Voting: Nuff said.

For some reason, I'm imagining Michael as Boss Tweed, using promises and threats to ensure that everybody under him votes the way he wants them to vote. The occupations of Heaven and Hell are going to make Douglas MacArthur's occupation of Japan look like a walk in the park.

11. Wildlife sanctuary: Endangered species? Need a protected place to put those rhino? Drop them in heaven. Since the heavenites don't have guns or cars, the rhino is on an even footing.

Ecology hasn't been the focus of The Salvation War, but I'd be careful about introducing Earth flora and fauna into Heaven or Hell. We have enough trouble dealing with invasive species right here in the real world, as Aussies familiar with the cane toad could testify.

[xthetenth]

Heaven is the perfect place for mass-scale agriculture; why screw it up by putting industry there if you can help it?

Not the city, stick factories in there so the economy which was based on adoring Yah-Yah in return for (I guess) plunder from the planets he plundered and the support of your vassals doesn't collapse.

[Edward Yee]

If that is an original cover, then pony those royalties right the fuck up, because that guy has talent.

It's Concept art for a Movie. The image links to a dA page.

Unfortunately the artist has confirmed that it's unavailable, as someone else commissioned the piece, but there's possibly room for Stuart to talk with the artist about an original one:

I read over a bit of the forum about this book, the concept sounds pretty cool but sadly the image you have in mind is a concept for a film script and there for cant be used. If it was just a personal image then we could have talked about it but as its commissioned by another client its unavailable.

[Simon_Jester]

Heaven is the perfect place for mass-scale agriculture; why screw it up by putting industry there if you can help it?

Not the city, stick factories in there so the economy which was based on adoring Yah-Yah in return for (I guess) plunder from the planets he plundered and the support of your vassals doesn't collapse.

There wasn't much of an economy, aside from food imported into the City. Second Lifers don't need much of an economy, remember?

Again, screwing with the air quality in Heaven by setting up polluting industries is both unnecessary and probably a bad idea from a political point of view. Nonpolluting industries are another matter, of course (examples include assembly of pre-made parts, as Uncluttered suggested).

[Pelranius]

Things to slowly introduce to the primitive screwheads in heaven (and hell)

10. Tourism: Hell can export raw materials, but heaven is an untainted wilderness. A tourism industry will be a way to earn that new bicycle.
11. Wildlife sanctuary: Endangered species? Need a protected place to put those rhino? Drop them in heaven. Since the heavenites don't have guns or cars, the rhino is on an even footing.

Well, Heaven strictly is wilderness, since it seems that Yahweh pretty much had the landscape altered for his own tastes. Still would be a great spot for a resort.

Rhinos might intimidate humans, even second lifers, into leaving them alone but the angels might hunt them for whatever reason. Though a few anti poaching laws should take care of that.

[Commander Xillian]

'Our slang, who art in our mouths, hallowed be thy names...'

You sir, win.

[Deebles]

Second-lifers don't need to eat, although they do enjoy it, so would never have needed huge amounts in imports before. But the secondlife humans outside the city could certainly export all manner of agricultural produce, which could be very handy for Earth's population after multiple "acts of god" have doubtless wreaked havoc on the agricultural sector.

One natural sector for the city secondlifers might be textiles: to start with, they could do outsourced tailoring etc. once they've caught up with modern fashion, after eons of experience making clothes for the angels and each other.

On the whole, we're going to be facing a huge culture shock with the heavensent, excepting Michael's few later arrivals. In hell this would have been small potatoes compared to the rapid improvement to quality of life after being tortured all the time. For people in heaven, previously tasked with less-than-arduous cozy domestic eternal servitude, and generally freed from hunger, disease, want etc. in return... it's going to be difficult. They had a system that more or less worked for them, and the modern capitalist economy etc. is going to be something very alien indeed. Partly things may depend on their existing status arrangements... I'd expect a composite of the seniority of the angels they serve and age, making universe 1 humans seem like upstart whippersnappers indeed.

[Eddie Van Helsing]

But the secondlife humans outside the city could certainly export all manner of agricultural produce, which could be very handy for Earth's population after multiple "acts of god" have doubtless wreaked havoc on the agricultural sector.

Farming in Heaven could make organic produce dirt cheap. The place has huge tracts of land, and if there are no insects, viruses, bacteria, or fungi to blight crops, then there's little need for pesticides or other chemicals. Volcanic soil could be harvested from Hell to make the ground more fertile, if necessary. Intelligent use of portals should make it possible to get the produce to supermarkets as soon as it's been harvested.

[Pelranius]

But the secondlife humans outside the city could certainly export all manner of agricultural produce, which could be very handy for Earth's population after multiple "acts of god" have doubtless wreaked havoc on the agricultural sector.

Farming in Heaven could make organic produce dirt cheap. The place has huge tracts of land, and if there are no insects, viruses, bacteria, or fungi to blight crops, then there's little need for pesticides or other chemicals. Volcanic soil could be harvested from Hell to make the ground more fertile, if necessary. Intelligent use of portals should make it possible to get the produce to supermarkets as soon as it's been harvested.

Problem is, wouldn't all sorts of fun insects and other pests and diseases take up root in Heaven? I doubt we can devise a foolproof quarantine system for everyone going into Heaven.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Stevenson looked at the gate where another great scab of wood was now being pulled out of the way. "Hokay. Very good Sir." She paused a little. "We could get through now, Sir."

"Even with your field kitchen in tow?" Roland looked at the trailer with a degree of suspicion. It didn’t look American somehow.

Stevenson felt that a note of explanation was required. "Yes Sir. We're been operating independently for so long we need to be able to provide the men with hot food even when we're outside normal supply areas." Actually, Stevenson had discovered one of her conscripts was a graduate of Chef Gordon Ramsey's kitchen. A few nights later, following an astoundingly well-planned and completely covert raid, a German infantry company waken up to find that they had mislaid their beloved "gulaschkanone" field kitchen trailer during the night. Her battalion had been eating well ever since. She noted that her General was eyeing the trailer suspiciously and decided it was time to change the subject. "Sir, with respect, may I ask how we got our name? We wanted to be the Wildcat Battalion."

This was great, the patented "Yoink Maneuver" in action.

[Eddie Van Helsing]

Problem is, wouldn't all sorts of fun insects and other pests and diseases take up root in Heaven? I doubt we can devise a foolproof quarantine system for everyone going into Heaven.

Yeah. Chances are that whatever viruses, bacteria, and parasites living in and on the HEA soldiers are already taking root in Heaven. If E. coli isn't part of the Heavenly ecosystem, it will be as soon as somebody shits in a freshly dug latrine -- unless General Petreaus thought to bring along a metric shitload of port-o-potties for the troops and brings 'em back to Earth to be emptied.

[Nematocyst]

6. Music: Same as with the movies. Use the temples as venues.

It's going to be de rigeur for heavy metal bands to have demon drummers.

Or leading guitars.

I wonder what Therion, Nightwish, or Within Temptation would do with a chorus of angels.

I for one wouldn't notice the difference. I always said Tarja Turunen was an angel in disguise, but not because she's pretty.

[Uncluttered]

Things to slowly introduce to the primitive screwheads in heaven (and hell)2. Bicycles:Both for screwhead use, and for export. Earth is dealing with petroleum shortages anyhow. IIRC The supply in hell hasn't ramped up yet.

You'd have to substantially redesign American cities and suburbs. Who in the US is going to want to spend more than an hour riding a bike to work? For most people, that would mean moving to within 5-15 miles of one's workplace.

You are right. No one on Earth, (and when you say America, I assume you mean to include the rest of the Earth) uses bicycles.
During fuel shortages, "Earthicans" will gladly sit at home and starve.
What the salvation was has proven, is that even an act of "God" will not get Earthicans off their asses.
There is no demand for bicycles on Earth, therefore, they have not been invented, and do not exist. QED

[Eddie Van Helsing]

Or leading guitars.

I think that the lowest-ranked minor demons might be able to handle a human-sized guitar or bass, but could you imagine Abigor handling a Les Paul? It would look like a ukelele in the hands of a reasonably large human being.

I always said Tarja Turunen was an angel in disguise, but not because she's pretty.

I personally think she's one of the nine Muses, but either way she has a hell of a voice. I've always wondered what Arjen Lucassen could do with Turunen doing vocals in an Ayreon rock opera, though she might fit in better with Therion.

[Eddie Van Helsing]

You are right. No one on Earth, (and when you say America, I assume you mean to include the rest of the Earth) uses bicycles.

Your assumption is mistaken. I specifically mentioned the US in order to avoid casting aspersions of laziness upon the rest of the Earth. Ask yourself this: would you be willing to spend more than an hour getting to work? I'm talking about a two-hour round trip. It's one thing to spend an hour on the train. You can take a nap, or read, or even do some work. A one-hour commute by car is worse, since you actually have to pay attention to the road, but still tolerable IMO. An hour by bicycle is even worse, especially on hot days or during the winter.

Also, you have to keep in mind that in a car, you can cover 30-60 miles in one hour, depending on the road, traffic, and speed limit. If you've got an empty highway, a lead foot, and a casual attitude towards obeying the law, you can cover even more distance in an hour. Consider the results for the 2010 IronMan US Triathlon at Lake Placid. The bicycle portion covered a distance of 112 miles. The fastest time was 4 hours, 38 minutes, and 3 seconds. That works out to a speed of 24.1683 mph for a trained triathlete.

I am not an athlete. In my current condition, I might cover that hundred and twelve miles in six to eight hours, but don't ask me to prove it by making the attempt. Now, do you still want to tell me that people who commute two hours to work by car or train are going to want to make that commute on a bicycle?

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Not everybody has a 15-20 mile commute, mine is about three miles, I could do it on a bike in about 15-20 minutes, hell I can walk it in about an hour, but delivering pizzas on a bike would be awkward at best.

[Eddie Van Helsing]

Not everybody has a 15-20 mile commute, mine is about three miles, I could do it on a bike in about 15-20 minutes, hell I can walk it in about an hour, but delivering pizzas on a bike would be awkward at best.

Fair enough. In your case, aside from the awkwardness inherent in delivering pizzas on a bike (though some people manage to do it in NYC with the proper equipment), commuting by bike is a reasonable option for you. I live half a mile from where I work, so a bike or walking is a reasonable option for me. You might find the Commuting In America III (PDF) report interesting.

[Nematocyst]

I think that the lowest-ranked minor demons might be able to handle a human-sized guitar or bass, but could you imagine Abigor handling a Les Paul? It would look like a ukelele in the hands of a reasonably large human being.

It already looks unimpressive in the hands of a teenaged girl...
But we can upscale guitars, can't we? Abigor had a custom made computer.

[DeRogue]

I think that the lowest-ranked minor demons might be able to handle a human-sized guitar or bass, but could you imagine Abigor handling a Les Paul? It would look like a ukelele in the hands of a reasonably large human being.

It already looks unimpressive in the hands of a teenaged girl...
But we can upscale guitars, can't we? Abigor had a custom made computer.

Oh god, a contra-bass guitar.

or using a Double Bass as an acoustic.

I believe I have some pants to change.

[Eddie Van Helsing]

But we can upscale guitars, can't we? Abigor had a custom made computer.

You can upscale them, but they wouldn't sound the same. One of the reasons a bass guitar sounds different from a regular guitar is that the strings are longer and thicker. Now that I think of it, Abigor might be able to handle a bass if he had a custom job with the strings spaced further apart than normal, though that would probably affect resonance and harmonics in interesting ways. You might want to consult a physicist who plays; I'm a butcher who used to be a programmer, and I butcher Yngwie Malmsteen guitar solos on an electric violin.

[Eddie Van Helsing]

Oh god, a contra-bass guitar.

or using a Double Bass as an acoustic.

I believe I have some pants to change.

Or you could have Steinway & Sons come up with a specially made grand piano that has extra-wide keys, and teach Abigor to play the piano. Of course, the thought of the vassal Lord of Hell belting out Bach (or "Dancing Mad" by Nobuo Uematsu) on a really huge pipe organ is rather amusing to me.

[Uncluttered]

You are right. No one on Earth, (and when you say America, I assume you mean to include the rest of the Earth) uses bicycles.

Your assumption is mistaken. I specifically mentioned the US in order to avoid casting aspersions of laziness upon the rest of the Earth. Ask yourself this: would you be willing to spend more than an hour getting to work? I'm talking about a two-hour round trip. It's one thing to spend an hour on the train. You can take a nap, or read, or even do some work. A one-hour commute by car is worse, since you actually have to pay attention to the road, but still tolerable IMO. An hour by bicycle is even worse, especially on hot days or during the winter.

Also, you have to keep in mind that in a car, you can cover 30-60 miles in one hour, depending on the road, traffic, and speed limit. If you've got an empty highway, a lead foot, and a casual attitude towards obeying the law, you can cover even more distance in an hour. Consider the results for the 2010 IronMan US Triathlon at Lake Placid. The bicycle portion covered a distance of 112 miles. The fastest time was 4 hours, 38 minutes, and 3 seconds. That works out to a speed of 24.1683 mph for a trained triathlete.

I am not an athlete. In my current condition, I might cover that hundred and twelve miles in six to eight hours, but don't ask me to prove it by making the attempt. Now, do you still want to tell me that people who commute two hours to work by car or train are going to want to make that commute on a bicycle?

I suggested heaven export cheap manufactured goods, citing bicycles as an example.
You seem to think I suggested they export a lengthy commute.
I'm really not sure how they would do that, possibly with wormholes
What I did suggest, was that in addition to the normal consumption of bicycles, a fuel shortage would increase demand.

I also suggested importing bicycles to Earth. I never specified the U.S. That was you.

BUT..... As far the possibility of a bicycle market in the U.S.
Heres a link.
http://nbda.com/articles/industry-overv ... 9-pg34.htm

The U.S. bicycle industry was a $5.6 billion industry in 2009, including the retail value of bicycles, related parts, and accessories through all channels of distribution, according to research funded by the National Sporting Goods Association. For comparison purposes, we project the industry at $5.3 billion in 2002, $5.4 billion in 2003, $5.8 billion in 2004, $6.1 billion in 2005 (an all-time high), $5.8 billion in 2006, $6.0 billion in 2007 and $6.0 billion in 2008. The recession of 2009 definitely had an impact on bicycle sales with an overall decline approaching 20% from the previous year.

Bicycle unit sales (for all bicycles, and for those with 20-in. wheels and above) for the U.S., including both the dealer and mass merchant channels are as follows. Please note that these figures reflect market consumption based on import statistics and estimates of domestic production. They do not account for inventory at the retail and wholesale levels.

* indicates projected figures
Year [] Bicycles Sold (Millions) 20" and above wheel sizes [] Bicycles Sold (Millions), all wheel sizes
2009 [] 10.2* [] 14.9*
2008 [] 13.4* [] 18.5*

CYCLING PARTICIPATION

38.1 million Americans age seven and older were estimated to have ridden a bicycle six times or more in 2009, according to the National Sporting Goods Association. The NSGA has revised its numbers for several previous years with the new numbers showing participation of 37.4 million in 2007 and 38.7 in 2008. The peak participation year was 1995, with 56.3 million participants. It should be noted that the age limit on this number eliminates millions of young people who ride bicycles with wheel sizes 19" and under. Cycling is often cited as the seventh most popular recreational activity in the U.S., behind exercise walking, swimming, camping, fishing, exercising with equipment and bowling.

Meanwhile:An average of about only 13,500 people will compete in an Ironman race each year in the U.S.

Conclusion#1: Not every person who uses a bicycle competes in an Ironman race.
Conclusion#2: People in the U.S. still purchase millions of bicycles per year.
Conclusion#3: More people on EARTH. will use bicycles if there is a fuel shortage.
Conclusion#4: Most first or second life humans will not be offended at a cheap bicycle.

[Ryan Thunder]

But we can upscale guitars, can't we? Abigor had a custom made computer.

You can upscale them, but they wouldn't sound the same. One of the reasons a bass guitar sounds different from a regular guitar is that the strings are longer and thicker. Now that I think of it, Abigor might be able to handle a bass if he had a custom job with the strings spaced further apart than normal, though that would probably affect resonance and harmonics in interesting ways. You might want to consult a physicist who plays; I'm a butcher who used to be a programmer, and I butcher Yngwie Malmsteen guitar solos on an electric violin.

You'd want it to be some kind of MIDI controller instead of an actual guitar, I think.