Christopher Nolan's Inception

[adam_grif]

Snip

With regards to Avatar, you can easily see parallels in Pocahontas. With regards to Inception , it is much harder to see find parallels in another film.

There are parallels to Pocahontas, but the biggest ones are with Dances With Wolves, where it even has minor stuff like the protagonist having a wounded leg. Both films share parallels in terms of the falling in love with local girl and going native stuff. And obviously both literally do have Native Americans, with the Na'vi simply being reminiscent of them.

[Shroom Man 777]

So what? What does it matter, anyway? One of them has Indians and Englishmen set sixty five million years ago, and another one has space ships, robots, alien worlds, and whatever. The only thing that's remotely similar is Jake Sully falling for the native chick. For all we know, James Cameron based it on fat old Americans retiring to the Philippines and marrying tiny mail-order Filipina wives.

With inception, the early 21st century is literally flooded with movies dealing with the topic of "is the world real/am I dreaming/what is real?", from the Matrix movies to What Dreams May Come (hell, this is even about a husband venturing to a surreal unreal weirdo afterlife to reconcile with his dead wife!) to Total Recall to whatever. The last bits where he confronts his wife in "limbo" was just like the part in What Dreams May Come where Robin Williams confronted his own dead wife in HELL! In a decrepit old house in the middle of "limbo" too. If Leonardo DiCaprio turned and went into that old house in the dreamworld, instead of that high rise condominium, it would've been SO What Dreams May Come.

Besides, it is painfully obvious that Avatar is more like The Last Samurai. I don't see why anyone can't see this*.

If Avatar's sequel involves Jake Sully going crazy in that weirdo mind-transfer ritual, and then having him become some cult leader of the Na'vi, and the RDA sending Sarevokerritch the son of Quarritch on a PT boat up the Pandora River in a mission to kill Jake Sully, that'd be awesome. Except people would be going on about how it's like Apocalypse Now or some shit.


*Man, I wonder why nobody's blubbering about how Emperor Hirohito and General Yamashita were unimaginatively using Pocahontas as basis for The Last Samurai, anyway. Are they afraid that Tomo Kuruzu (Tom Cruise) will jump on their couches? Or is it because of the weirdo bullshit mysticism of oriental kultures and Japanimu samurai bullshitdo ways of life? Or did it just lack an effeminate emasculating environmentalist message that angers people who hate VTOLs?

[adam_grif]

So what? What does it matter, anyway?

It doesn't, like I already said. I'm making a statement that it's not very original, not that it isn't good. The reason I'm saying this was because someone brought it up as an example of an "original SciFi movie" making it big, when it wasn't. The most unique thing about it was that it didn't have magical star drives and stuff, but that's not unknown, just uncommon.

With inception, the early 21st century is literally flooded with movies dealing with the topic of "is the world real/am I dreaming/what is real?", from the Matrix movies to What Dreams May Come (hell, this is even about a husband venturing to a surreal unreal weirdo afterlife to reconcile with his dead wife!) to Total Recall to whatever.

Inception isn't "about" the real world being a dream. It's about the power of ideas, regret, redemption, and getting into fist fights with people's subconscious. It makes bold statements about the world, about the importance of being satisfied in the face of existential uncertainty, and about learning to solve all of your problems by shooting other people and or yourself in the face.

It's a movie where we learn that the preferred method of dealing with subconscious issues is with grenade launchers, and that Christopher Nolan would fucking suck at Scribblenauts. It gives us a heist movie, Arctic gunfights at Shadow Moses Island, and crazy ex-wives trying to knee cap everybody.

What say you to that, you incoherent, dick-stabbing manchild?

[Shroom Man 777]

So what? What does it matter, anyway?

It doesn't, like I already said. I'm making a statement that it's not very original, not that it isn't good. The reason I'm saying this was because someone brought it up as an example of an "original SciFi movie" making it big, when it wasn't. The most unique thing about it was that it didn't have magical star drives and stuff, but that's not unknown, just uncommon.

I don't know, mang. The way they blended the whole experience, by putting Pocahontas into space, by having all the Cameronian sci-fi milspec hardware and Vietnam in Space, plus the environmental messages and the alienoid environment, when combined does result in something fairly original.

I mean, sure, none of the ingredients were exactly new, but combined and cooked well? That good dish will stand out from the rest, and will be quite different too.

Inception isn't "about" the real world being a dream. It's about the power of ideas, regret, redemption, and getting into fist fights with people's subconscious. It makes bold statements about the world, about the importance of being satisfied in the face of existential uncertainty, and about learning to solve all of your problems by shooting other people and or yourself in the face.

It's a movie where we learn that the preferred method of dealing with subconscious issues is with grenade launchers, and that Christopher Nolan would fucking suck at Scribblenauts. It gives us a heist movie, Arctic gunfights at Shadow Moses Island, and crazy ex-wives trying to knee cap everybody.

What say you to that, you incoherent, dick-stabbing manchild?

Finally, someone is talking sense in this thread.

Or, at least, in a language I can understand or something.

I like the former paragraph though, when you went on about the power of ideas, regret, redemption, and satisfaction despite/in spite of great uncertainty. That sounds kinda profound. I mean, when you peel off the slick hairdos, the snappy suits, the awesome architecture and the surrealistic story, the much greater message that Inception through these details is a very nice one. How, yeah, guilt and regret can ruin life - in the real world and out of the real world - and how, eventually, to be happy (be it in the real world or out of the real world), one must eventually cease dwelling in the memories of these regrets and move on in life, in order to escape the prison of the past and live life. That's an idea that has great emotional resonance, with or without subconscious shit-ruining and final battles in SHADOW MOSES ISLAND.

Cobb's story was great.

Oh man, shit, yeah. That's brilliant. Because Cobb's story of being happy despite the past and regret? That totally is so reflective of Fischer's story! In a way, Leo and Cillian both had to deal with the same inner demons, they both had to gain catharsis and move on, they both had to deal with loved ones lost and the regrets therein and something-something. Man. It was the same!

So the whole idea of the whole Fischer mission being not real, but some SUPER convoluted method to gain Inception on Cobb kinda does work. Why? Because what Cobb (and crew) were doing to Fisher would be the exact same thing that would be done to Cobb. Fischer's Inception WAS Cobb's Inception! In that experience, they both were able to solve their problems. Since to save Fischer, Cobb had to go to Mollyland and shoot Molly in the face and reconcile with her, so Fischer could return and reconcile with that Great White Hunter from Jurassic Park 2! Oh man! BRILLIANT!

Am I just being slow?

[But then, you know, the idea of EVERYTHING being Cobb's dream is kinda dumb. Because, well, if it was Cobb's dream and just his, then HOW would we be able to see what was going on with the Indian Driver or Arthur or even Fischer? If people were trying to Intercept Cobb, then what's the point of Fischer really gaining catharsis for real? It's not like Cobb would see it at all! Cobb wouldn't see it! After Fischer leaves Mollyland and goes back to SHADOW MOSES, there's really no point in him REALLY having a catharsis with his dead dad FOR REAL - if the real mission was to intercept Cobb! So, obviously, there WAS a real Fischer mission! It DID really happen! ]

[Shroom Man 777]

PS. When I said So what?, the rely was aimed at ray since you hadn't posted when I typed it mang.

[RedImperator]

Avatar wasn't a remake, sequel, or adaptation from another medium, and didn't have established, familiar characters or settings that risk-averse studio execs love. The hope is that movies that don't have "guaranteed" audiences get greenlighted more often based on the success of Inception and Avatar. Who gives a shit if the plot of Avatar was like Dances With Wolves? Nobody marketed the film that way.

[Shroom Man 777]

Oh no RedImp Avatar has an Englishman falling for a native chick so it OBVIOUSLY must be so unoriginal and based off on Pocahontas or Dancing with Woolves because I am so very much obtuse and thus unable to appreciate how James Cameron got a whole crapload of guys design an entire alien ecosystem, while expending so much effort on everyone's part - cast and crew - to create awesome-looking sci-fi technologies and aesthetics and even goddamn VTOL Space Hueys and spaceships distinct and different from generic sci-fi shit, and working on his previously touched on favorite themes of corporate greed and nature versus technology and man versus whatever while using the science-fiction medium to deliver an environmentalistic and naturalistic tale that is usually unseen in that medium, while using masterful cinematography to immersively depict a beautiful and strange alien world unlike anything we've seen before, culminating in its totality to present a great work that is very competent done, professionally pulled off, visually stunning, and with much aplomb. Who are you to 'grr' and 'argh' if I am fixated on its similarities to Pocahontas or am frustrated at the presence of VTOL Space Hueys in Vietna'vinam or the lack of MiG-36 Pacemakers or something! ARGH!


Another great thing about Inception is how the 'inceptees', both Cobb and Fischer, were able to achieve their catharsis by overcoming great challenges - namely, in the mission they pull off. They did that to Fischer, by using him to help them storm SHADOW MOSES ISLAND. Imagine, that pencil-necked dweeb skiing through the Himalayas and fighting off special forces arctic warfare genome soldier yetis, and storming SHADOW MOSES ISLAND in the Fox Archipelago! To achieve his great epiphany in the end, after coming back from dreamdeath itself! And by doing that to Fischer, and by likewise dealing with all the challenges in the dream world (including his own subconscious shit), Cobb likewise overcomes his own troubles and in that process (whereby they make Fischer gain catharsis) he also finds his own fulfillment thinggy! Man!

The movie was great in depicting how people surpassed their limitations to win!

If there was more classical music, less gunfire, and more introspective camera angles at peoples' faces and noses, and more lens glares and views of sunrises or sunsets or landscapes, and even more classical music like a banjo-ing Beethoven or a violining Van Gough or Picasso piano-ing or something, or better yet lameass monologues by someone with an accent or a deep hypnotic voice, then the whole deep deepyness of the thing would've been deeper then the Mariannas Trench even if it opened up and became the Earth's anus! Shitting out the bathyscape Trieste! Those artsy fartsy folks would've loved it!

[Havok]

Shroom... Have you ever seen Dances with Wolves?

[Shroom Man 777]

Nope. Why?

[Stofsk]

Snip

With regards to Avatar, you can easily see parallels in Pocahontas. With regards to Inception , it is much harder to see find parallels in another film.

At least one person i know has compared it to the Matrix.

[adam_grif]

At least one person i know has compared it to the Matrix.

Have you ever had a dream, Leo...

Aside from the conceit of mostly-realistic dreamworlds, they have nothing in common. One is a cyberpunk action flick about fighting off machine overlords, with a Messiah figure central to the plot. Inception... isn't.

[Whiplash]

Well after seeing it again I picked up a lot of things you guys mentioned and I jumped less (well the train on the first level still got me). Going off the wedding ring, I'm gonna say he wasn't dreaming at the end.

Zero gravity fight, still awesome.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I hear Matthew Vaughn's had to rewrite his X-Men film given it seems to clash with Inception. Wonder how much was too too similar then.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Just about every permutation of possible theories for the film. Ever. Yeah, it's Tropes, but a lot of stuff there I hadn't even considered.

[Havok]

Most of those are pretty obviously wrong, but I did like the one that suggests that Saito is the extractor and he is trying to free Cobb from Limbo.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I like the idea of making it so that Cobb incepts Saito, or the analogy already mentioned previously for the whole film story being equivalent to the art of film story telling.

[Rye]

I'm not "dismissing" Avatar, I'm saying it's not very original. Not just the story. The characters aren't very original, the dialogue isn't very original, and the only thing that is somewhat original is Pandora, although unkown alien planet with strange lifeforms isn't exactly unheard of either. Pandora is only unique in that it is very fleshed out.

The reason Avatar was good was not because it was original, it was because the components are well integrated and the parts are all individually competent. Some of the acting is good, the soundtrack is appropriate, and the structure of the story is solid. Honestly, the only risky thing about the film was the insane budget it had.

If you want an example of a highly successful original SciFi movie to complement Inception, then you need look no further than District 9.

"Originality" in the context Red was using it refers to the fact it was a whole new franchise. The same applies to Inception, Moon, District 9, and to Pandorum, though the plots of these individual films aren't really anything "new" per se. Inception was Hitchcockian Freudian film-making with a load of archetypal psychological processes in the narrative with noir overtones; Avatar has been covered already, D9 was an anti-racism allegory with splat-gore and mech gimmicks.

The truth is that there is only so much you can do with a few hours of film in terms of the plot. The plot is not the important thing. An unstable plot, fucked up pacing and so on loses audience satisfaction, hence why art film is a niche market (and most non-Hollywood film, which is now greatly influenced by Hollywood). Film making, especially Hollywood film making, homogenises narrative forms to something we have learned to watch. The setting can be as fucked up and imaginative as ever, but the plot in a mainstream film will be "straightforward" in human terms and sympathetic (almost always, sometimes not, like in horror and postmodern forms like exploitation films, funny games, etc). Within that format there's still lots of room for creativity, intelligence and rules you can break.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Oh, FYI, there was a viral campaign just as with TDK.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Just about every permutation of possible theories for the film. Ever. Yeah, it's Tropes, but a lot of stuff there I hadn't even considered.

I didn't go see it a second time, but apparently at the end of the credits you hear the spinning top fall over.

So... he's awake.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I will test that. Taking 'rents to see it Sunday, so I will try and stay till the end of the credits. Knowing them, they'll not, then bitch at me for being late back t'car.

[Havok]

Just about every permutation of possible theories for the film. Ever. Yeah, it's Tropes, but a lot of stuff there I hadn't even considered.

I didn't go see it a second time, but apparently at the end of the credits you hear the spinning top fall over.

So... he's awake.

Yeah, I heard this after I already went the second time. Damnit.
I did sit through the credits the first time though and didn't hear it, but I am fairly certain Jenn and I were talking about the movie the entire time we were sitting through them.

[Bounty]

Saw it and loved it. Joseph Gordon-Levitt is one awesomely good actor.

[Havok]

Saw it and loved it. Joseph Gordon-Levitt is one awesomely good actor.

Jenn is in love with him now. She got all 'squeeeee' over a magazine cover with him on it.

Who would have thought that the kid from Third Rock From the Sun could whoop Vin Diesel's ass.

He was pretty good though. He's been good in a few other things as well.

[Admiral Valdemar]

He was afraid that after Third Rock From The Sun ended, he'd never act again. But I highly recommend Brick as mentioned previously. Nolan obviously saw potential too, and good on him. Fresh blood working well with old is good.

[Shroom Man 777]

I hope Arthur becomes one of Nolan's standard guys. The guy really takes care of his actors. I mean, look at Micheal Caine and Cillian and Ken.