God Emperor vs God emperor (Dune vs Warhammer 40k)

[SapphireFox]

This is a little piece of brain fluff that wouldn't leave me alone. The thought of two so very different God Emperors beating the crap out of each other was too interesting not to share.

The two scenarios are thus

1. Both the God Emperor of Mankind and Leto II (you can substitute his father Paul if you like him better) are placed in an arena like the Colosseum in Rome during its heyday. There under the watchful eyes of all of SDN in the stands the two duke it out for control of all mankind and the fate of both universes.


2. The more classic vs scenario. A tear in the warp rips open a gateway between both universes. The gateway exists in a lightly populated systems on each end and both are fully within each empire. (ie the systems are not near any borders) Both sides immediately investigate and discover each other. The eras are Pre-Heresy era Warhammer and Leto II era Dune.

...And Tzeentch continues to laugh as the thirsting god seeks to claim new souls as the Immaterium spills out into the new universe.

[Samuel]

For 2 people have said there isn't enough information on Dune space combat to make a determination.

[SapphireFox]

For 2 people have said there isn't enough information on Dune space combat to make a determination.

If there isn't then there isn't. I may have to modify the scenario to remove space combat entirely like say have the gateway open up on the worlds instead. In that case then the worlds would be Arrakis aka Dune and... lets say for something different the forge world of Orestes in the Segmentum Pacificus. The time frame would obviously be the same as the original scenario 2.

[Ford Prefect]

When you say 'God Emperor' do you mean when he was alive and kicking pre-Horus? I get that impression, and it's probably the only way it would be remotely fair. Post-Heresy, the Emperor developed the ability to stop time.

[Darth Yoshi]

Granted, I don't have more than a passing familiarity with 40K, but isn't the post-Heresy God-Emperor essentially a proto-Warp God with a bound avatar? I mean, stopping time is all well and good, but unless he can affect the Materium in some other way I'm not sure what he can actually do in single combat.

[OsirisLord]

Leto II. Then again it's not much of a contest when your opponent is a corpse.

Okay real answer this time. I'd go with the Emperor of Mankind. Leto II proved to be inhumanly fast when bounded with the sandtrout. but the Emperor has bitching armor, is pretty strong, and is probably the most powerful human psyker in all the Universe.

[Serafina]

Granted, I don't have more than a passing familiarity with 40K, but isn't the post-Heresy God-Emperor essentially a proto-Warp God with a bound avatar? I mean, stopping time is all well and good, but unless he can affect the Materium in some other way I'm not sure what he can actually do in single combat.

He can summon "Angels", probably has a whole order of Space Marines he can teleport around at will and supposedly smite people in his throne room.

If it is a personal battle, the pre-heresy GEoM should win by a giant margin. If it is post-heresy, he might have more problems depending on how accurate his reported capabilities are.

[Ford Prefect]

Granted, I don't have more than a passing familiarity with 40K, but isn't the post-Heresy God-Emperor essentially a proto-Warp God with a bound avatar? I mean, stopping time is all well and good, but unless he can affect the Materium in some other way I'm not sure what he can actually do in single combat.

I think being able to open up a warp rift which swallowed hundreds of star systems qualifies as 'affecting the Materium' - that is, after all, what the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is. As I recall, it's established that the Emperor is more powerful now than he was pre-Heresy. Just because he's dead doesn't mean he can't disintegrate Leto II.

[IvanTih]

Granted, I don't have more than a passing familiarity with 40K, but isn't the post-Heresy God-Emperor essentially a proto-Warp God with a bound avatar? I mean, stopping time is all well and good, but unless he can affect the Materium in some other way I'm not sure what he can actually do in single combat.

I think being able to open up a warp rift which swallowed hundreds of star systems qualifies as 'affecting the Materium' - that is, after all, what the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is. As I recall, it's established that the Emperor is more powerful now than he was pre-Heresy. Just because he's dead doesn't mean he can't disintegrate Leto II.

OFT.
Post-Heresy he is more powerful because quadtrillons worship him.
Even pre-heresy he could kill Leto with some psychic attack or with his rune sword.

[NecronLord]

Never mind that. Just in the Inquisitor example, he took Jaq Draco's mind out. As in, literally removed all his knowledge, leaving him less than a newborn baby mentally, and then put it back. He also cautioned Jaq beforehand with:

"THEN WE SHALL STRIP YOUR SOUL BARE, RELAX, MORTAL MAN, OR YOU WILL SURELY DIE IN SUCH PAIN AS WE ALWAYS ENDURE."

That should be sufficient to destroy any personal assailant in his Throne Room.

[Serafina]

Of course, a physical fight in the Throne Room already assumes that Leto II got in there, which is extremely unlikely.
Hence, a fight between pre-HH GEoM and Leto II is the better choice.

[Darth Hoth]

Granted, I don't have more than a passing familiarity with 40K, but isn't the post-Heresy God-Emperor essentially a proto-Warp God with a bound avatar? I mean, stopping time is all well and good, but unless he can affect the Materium in some other way I'm not sure what he can actually do in single combat.

I think being able to open up a warp rift which swallowed hundreds of star systems qualifies as 'affecting the Materium' - that is, after all, what the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is. As I recall, it's established that the Emperor is more powerful now than he was pre-Heresy. Just because he's dead doesn't mean he can't disintegrate Leto II.

Has it been proved that the Storm was actually an intentional creation of the Emperor? From the name, the Imperium certainly think so, but warp storms seem fairly comon overall in the Warhammer galaxy.

Not to say that it was necessarily a natural phenomenon, but is there concrete evidence either way?

[SapphireFox]

When you say 'God Emperor' do you mean when he was alive and kicking pre-Horus? I get that impression, and it's probably the only way it would be remotely fair. Post-Heresy, the Emperor developed the ability to stop time.

The eras are Pre-Heresy era Warhammer and Leto II era Dune.

I believe I did say what the time periods for the fights were. Although I probably should have separated it from the second section further to better indicate that it was meant for both scenarios.

[Serafina]

Has it been proved that the Storm was actually an intentional creation of the Emperor? From the name, the Imperium certainly think so, but warp storms seem fairly comon overall in the Warhammer galaxy.

Not to say that it was necessarily a natural phenomenon, but is there concrete evidence either way?

Well, as far as anything in the IoM get proven anyway.
But if you consider that it would be the most amazing coincidence that the warp storm hit exactly where it did, someone must be responsible for it. It hit the fleet of Van dire pretty suddenly, after all.

So unless you want to claim that it is pure coincidence, someone must be responsible for it. The Eldar never demonstrated that capability, the Chaos gods would not be interested in helping the IoM - but the Emperor would.
Hence, it is not unreasonable to conclude that he is actually responsible for it.

[Darth Hoth]

With ten per cent (?) of the Imperium out of reach from Terra by warp storms at any given time, it does not seem such a huge coincidence that it belies belief. Very convenient, yes, but not impossible.

Although it might well have been him; I have no idea, and as far as I know, there is no real conclusive statement in the fluff. Which was why I asked if there was any proof, and only me being ignorant of it.

[Simon_Jester]

With ten per cent (?) of the Imperium out of reach from Terra by warp storms at any given time, it does not seem such a huge coincidence that it belies belief. Very convenient, yes, but not impossible.

Very true. What's a bit more remarkable about this storm is that it's still there after three or four thousand years; this is the Great Red Spot of warp storms.

It would not be all that remarkable for Vandire's fleet to run into an unexpected warp storm; such events are common enough that they are a routine aspect of military planning in 40k.

It's a bit more remarkable for Vandire to run into one of the biggest storms in recorded history, one that popped up suddenly, and one that "just happened" to neutralize his largest combat formation. At that point, the coincidence is low-probability enough that divine-imperial intervention is a plausible alternative, I think.

But yes, that's not the same as proof.

[Shroom Man 777]

I thought warp storms usually developed gradually, rather than suddenly, and so people can go around them or avoid them or something?

[Ghost Rider]

I thought warp storms usually developed gradually, rather than suddenly, and so people can go around them or avoid them or something?

Usually, but some like the Emperor's Wrath and the Eye of Terror are pretty much pop into reality at it's massive size.

Also of note, aside from what Simon pointed out, is that a storm that size is fucking unusual. To go "Natural event." is to go the Eye of terror is not result of Slaanesh and the Eldar's psychic scream but a complete coincidence that they occur...just there. In 40K yes, the Emperor is noted for powers of this level, it is up to the person claiming coincidence to demonstrate otherwise.

[PainRack]

Very true. What's a bit more remarkable about this storm is that it's still there after three or four thousand years; this is the Great Red Spot of warp storms.

It would not be all that remarkable for Vandire's fleet to run into an unexpected warp storm; such events are common enough that they are a routine aspect of military planning in 40k.

It's a bit more remarkable for Vandire to run into one of the biggest storms in recorded history, one that popped up suddenly, and one that "just happened" to neutralize his largest combat formation. At that point, the coincidence is low-probability enough that divine-imperial intervention is a plausible alternative, I think.

But yes, that's not the same as proof.

And as a counterpoint, this also happens to be an era where a large number of warp storms began to ravage the Imperium, exposing large areas of the Imperium to Chaos and ork raiders without reinforcement from the Imperium.

[Ford Prefect]

And as a counterpoint, this also happens to be an era where a large number of warp storms began to ravage the Imperium, exposing large areas of the Imperium to Chaos and ork raiders without reinforcement from the Imperium.

And as a counterpoint, the idea that it isn't an act of the Emperor is fucking barmy. Vandire is on his way to snuff out Sebastian Thor's rebellion, the Emperor is known to be opposed to Vandire's reign and a multi-hundred lightyear wide warp rift opens right on top of Vandire's fleet entirely by accident? Sure, I guess it could have been a extremely happy coincidence seeing as there is no definitive statement that the Emperor did it, but the idea that this is actually ambiguous is ridiculous. The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is one of the most prominent warp storms in the entire galaxy, second in size only to the Maelstrom and the Eye of Terror, has persisted for millenia, and was one of the defining events of the Age of Apostasy which lead to Vandire's downfall.

[Raxmei]

A less spectacular example of probable Warp manipulation from that period surrounds Sebastian Thor himself, who enjoyed miraculously clear sailing wherever he went.

[Rossum]

Isn't Leto II deathly allergic to water? As in he had one battle where he got to use is sandworm-fu on his enemies... but it was in the rain so he was in extreme pain and almost died before he crawled back into a building and even then was hurt from the moisture of his opponents blood that he rolled around in?

Also, Leto II was defeated by falling into a river. Granted he only fell into a river because he had specifically bred the girl who blew up the bridge to be immune to his brand of precognition... but still he can be taken out with water.


All the God Emperor of Mankind needs to do is douse Leto II with enough water to make all of his sand trout pieces fall off of his Jabba the Hutt shaped body and its a victory. Turning his brain into a billion microscopic square circles or imploding his organs with psychic powers or calling his infinite legions of armies and military might could work too.


As for a Dune vs Wahrammer 40k battle... I don't know but I'm betting on the Imperium. My knowledge of Dune isn't much but I gather that:

1. Dune has No-Ships that are apparently pretty stealthy and immune to being scyed by psychic means. That might give Leto a hiding place while the unending swarms of the Imperium bomb the hell out of all the planets that aren't invisible.

2. Dune has personal force fields that can protect against melee weapons unless they use special slow-motion attacks. Also the personal force fields explode if someone shoots them with a lasgun. The imperium has lots and lots of men armed with lasguns... I think the post Heresay Imperium wouldn't mind at all throwing troops at the enemy with lasguns and having betting pools seeing how many of the enemy explode when they are shot. Pre Heresay GEoM might have some qualms about it... or not... but those force fields just sound like they would just make lasguns cool for blowing up the enemy and make chainswords even less practical for combat then they already are.

3. Dune has Golas and Spice and Face Dancers and other stuff... the Imperium has to deal with Orcs and Necrons and Gene Stealers so that won't help anything.

4. Leto II made an army composed entirely of women because he felt they would be less likely to opress the populace than an army of men. I don't know how they Imperium would react to that... if Leto is lucky then his amazon brigade might confuse the Imperium army for about five seconds before the Sisters of Battle pull out the flame throwers and White Phosphorous.

5. Leto dies if he's exposed to water. If the GEoM knows what planet he's on, he can just have his space armadas bomb the planet until there are no buildings left. Then Leto can't come in out of the rain and he dies in the next rainstorm.

6. Pilots in the Dune universe need Spice to navigate. The Imperium doesn't. GEoM blows up the planet where all the spice comes from and calmly waits for all the spice addicts to die. Better yet, the GEoM could have one of his armies grab some Orks and dump them onto the surface of Dune. The Orks to turn the sandworm desert into an Ork World and the boyz use any surviving sandworms for target practice. Then GEoM can bomb the planet to smithereens again just to make sure its dead.

[Darth Hoth]

Usually, but some like the Emperor's Wrath and the Eye of Terror are pretty much pop into reality at it's massive size.

Also of note, aside from what Simon pointed out, is that a storm that size is fucking unusual. To go "Natural event." is to go the Eye of terror is not result of Slaanesh and the Eldar's psychic scream but a complete coincidence that they occur...just there. In 40K yes, the Emperor is noted for powers of this level, it is up to the person claiming coincidence to demonstrate otherwise.

Is this not circular reasoning, though? "It must have been the Emperor who made the Storm because only he is powerful enough and we know this because he made the Storm"? Or is he in the habit of making other warp storms that I do not know about?

For the Eye we have explicit statements to the effect that it was Chaos that did it.

Whatever. I was not making any "claim", but merely asking if there was clear official evidence for it actually being the Emperor. Since no one has cited any such, I will consider my question answered and leave the thread for the Dune discussion. My apologies for the minor hijack.

[PainRack]

And as a counterpoint, the idea that it isn't an act of the Emperor is fucking barmy. Vandire is on his way to snuff out Sebastian Thor's rebellion, the Emperor is known to be opposed to Vandire's reign and a multi-hundred lightyear wide warp rift opens right on top of Vandire's fleet entirely by accident? Sure, I guess it could have been a extremely happy coincidence seeing as there is no definitive statement that the Emperor did it, but the idea that this is actually ambiguous is ridiculous. The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is one of the most prominent warp storms in the entire galaxy, second in size only to the Maelstrom and the Eye of Terror, has persisted for millenia, and was one of the defining events of the Age of Apostasy which lead to Vandire's downfall.

And the fact that the Divine Storm, Kamikaze just happened to sink the Yuan armada proves that God is stepping in to defend the devout Japanese against the evil Mongols.......... just as countless other storms in the area sunk japanese vessels during a storm season.


AGAIN. Said warp storm? It just SO easily happened to occur in an era of warp storms ravaging the Imperium. Countless others fleets reinforcing helpless planets against Ork and Chaos marauders were lost. Why aren't you attributing this to the malice of a Chaos god? While the fact that it is the largest warpstorm and the most miraculous event that saves Sebastian and doomed Vandire empire must be laid against the backdrop of the warp storms ravaging the Imperium. And before you forgot, remember that said warpstorms that were causing planets to be ravaged by Orks and Chaos were also attributed to the Malice of the Emperor, who was punishing the sins of the Imperium. Even when said storms were allowing rebels in the Age of Unbelief to escape Imperial retribution/reconquest.

Hell. Again, regarding Sebastion Thor, why not just claim he's warp possessed, thus explaining why its his deadly enemies that just so nicely got hit by a warp storm while he enjoys smooth sailing.

Its entirely plausible to argue that the Emperor Wrath was a display of the Emperor power. But to argue that it can't possibly be a "natural" or non Divine Emperor cause is nonsensical. The canon evidence is deliberately designed to be ambiguous with regards to this.

[lordofchange13]

i have read the last few books of dune, but isn't the god emperor nerly a GOD, while Leto is just a psionic guy hopped up on meth. the emperor has keapt back the armys of chaos from over running the IOM for millienia, and made warp rifts over his enamys. it seems that the IOM god emperor would win instantly.