The Illegal Immigrants Who Are NOT Being Deported

[hunter5]

The only time that printing the government forms in a different language would be a waste is when the government has to invent a written language for the people that need the forms. Luckily as far as I can tell this doesn't happen often and I have only heard of one case but can't find any proof of it so it may not even be that much.

[Kanastrous]

I don't see why that's any more or less of a waste than printing forms in existing written languages. Are people without a written language less worthy of service than people with one?

[General Zod]

The only time that printing the government forms in a different language would be a waste is when the government has to invent a written language for the people that need the forms. Luckily as far as I can tell this doesn't happen often and I have only heard of one case but can't find any proof of it so it may not even be that much.

Sounds like an urban legend to me.

[StarshipTitanic]

The only time that printing the government forms in a different language would be a waste is when the government has to invent a written language for the people that need the forms. Luckily as far as I can tell this doesn't happen often and I have only heard of one case but can't find any proof of it so it may not even be that much.

Sounds like an urban legend to me.

An urban legend that ignores the hilarious necessity of not only inventing a writing system but also teaching the system to these illiterate people. So they can fill out a form.

Man those immigrants from the Amazon River basin and Deepest, Darkest Africa are such a pain in the ass for the American taxpayer.

[RedImperator]

There have been cases of people in recent times without a written language who had to invent one after European contact. But in the cases I know about, either a native speaker or a missionary invented the written language, not a government.

[Broomstick]

The only time that printing the government forms in a different language would be a waste is when the government has to invent a written language for the people that need the forms. Luckily as far as I can tell this doesn't happen often and I have only heard of one case but can't find any proof of it so it may not even be that much.

Sounds like an urban legend to me.

Well, the Hmong, of which the US alone has about 1/4 million, didn't have a written form of their language until the 1950's. That's the one I'm aware of most recently. There may be others. Kind of an issue in cities where there are significant concentrations, as no one anywhere was literate in that language prior to the 1950's and most of the older generation never learned to read or write their native tongue.

Of course, some people will come up with a solution on their own - the Cherokee not only created their own writing system, in the 1800's then went from no written language at all to 90%+ of the population being able to at least write their own name in less than 10 years. Pretty remarkable, if you think about it. (Oklahoma once considered making Cherokee an official language alongside English. In that case cost might have been a factor, as the Cherokee syllabary bears little relationship to the Latin alphabet, requiring entirely separate typefaces and parallel printing capability, and computer fonts hadn't been invented yet)

Missionaries usually beat governments to the punch of creating a written language, though. And in other cases a native speaker creates it, such as Sequoyah for the Cherokee.

[Zaune]

Kanastrous does raise a valid point about the provision of paperwork in other languages being a disincentive to achieve greater fluency in English. But just as importantly, it's a disincentive to spend the rather considerably higher sum required to make English As A Second Language classes affordable for some guy trying to support a young family on the minimum wage.
Let's face it, an English fluency test with a threshold higher than paying for groceries and asking the way to the bathroom would exclude almost anyone not educated to degree-level, including skilled tradesmen. Barring the apparently impossible pipe-dream of a minimum wage that provides a substantially better lifestyle than unemployment benefit*, this means our economy needs vast quantities of first-generation immigrants who don't qualify for the dole and no more than a secondary education.
These people are going to have real trouble socialising outside their own ethnic/national group without a bit of coaching, first in a classroom and then in a language-lab environment, and if they don't get that coaching quite soon after they arrive then socialising exclusively among themselves is going to become an ingrained habit. Plenty of people misinterpret that to mean they don't want to socialise with anyone else and behave with hostility towards the new arrivals, which then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as they figure there's no point socialising outside their own ethnic group if the natives are going to take that attitude.

That being said, forcing the people we're importing en masse as menial labourers to learn English at their sole expense isn't a solution either. Integration is a two-way process, and there's more to our share of the work than running a few forms through Google Translate.

* For example: Total Jobseeker's Allowance and Housing Benefit entitlement for unmarried, childless British citizens between the ages of 16 and 24, approximately £130 p/w. Pre-tax earnings for a 40-hour week at national minimum wage, approximately £160 p/w. Bus fare to and from work if unreachable on foot or by bicycle, variable, but you're doing pretty well if it's only £15 p/w.

[General Zod]

Kanastrous does raise a valid point about the provision of paperwork in other languages being a disincentive to achieve greater fluency in English.

It's only a valid point if there's evidence to support it. I'm not seeing any of that.

[Zaune]

That was kind of what the rest of my post was trying to say, though re-reading what I wrote, I left out a key point: Not all immigrants, legal or otherwise, have left their country of origin because they wanted to. Many of them have left out of necessity, and would gladly return home if it were practical. Even if they know intellectually that they're stuck in their new country for life, they're going to need a bit more incentive to integrate than someone who just wanted a fresh start and a change of scenery.
They're the people I have in mind when I talk about integration needing work on the part of the natives as well.

[General Zod]

That was kind of what the rest of my post was trying to say, though re-reading what I wrote, I left out a key point: Not all immigrants, legal or otherwise, have left their country of origin because they wanted to. Many of them have left out of necessity, and would gladly return home if it were practical. Even if they know intellectually that they're stuck in their new country for life, they're going to need a bit more incentive to integrate than someone who just wanted a fresh start and a change of scenery.
They're the people I have in mind when I talk about integration needing work on the part of the natives as well.

The rest of your post provided precisely zero evidence. Try again.

[Zaune]

That... might be difficult.

Either I'm really bad at using a search engine, or there isn't a single comparative study on the relative benefits of translation services versus English as a Second Language classes online anywhere.

[Broomstick]

Kanastrous does raise a valid point about the provision of paperwork in other languages being a disincentive to achieve greater fluency in English.

On the other hand, other than some government paperwork, it's rather hard to get by without English in the US (or Spanish, which in some areas would do). Now, historically we did have some places like Chinatowns where the language and culture were retained sometimes for generations, but that is not so much the case as before. And certainly if the children attend public school that is in English they'll pick the language up. The initial immigrants will only integrate so much, but their children should be much more so.

But just as importantly, it's a disincentive to spend the rather considerably higher sum required to make English As A Second Language classes affordable for some guy trying to support a young family on the minimum wage.

Not to mention such classes have to be available at a time a working person can attend them. One sharp difference between the US and the EU/UK is that, with the US social safety net so thin, immigrants have much more pressure to support themselves, and in many instances that also forces language acquisition. Unfortunately, those who can't adapt, or adapt poorly, are left MUCH worse off.

These people are going to have real trouble socialising outside their own ethnic/national group without a bit of coaching, first in a classroom and then in a language-lab environment, and if they don't get that coaching quite soon after they arrive then socialising exclusively among themselves is going to become an ingrained habit. Plenty of people misinterpret that to mean they don't want to socialise with anyone else and behave with hostility towards the new arrivals, which then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as they figure there's no point socialising outside their own ethnic group if the natives are going to take that attitude.

One things about Americans hanging onto a hyphenated heritage - the ethnic communities have a spectrum of people from essentially not integrated to fully integrated, allowing new arrivals to ease into the new culture and in many instances providing support to new arrivals. I don't know how much of that sort of thing goes on in Europe.

[Broomstick]

That... might be difficult.

Either I'm really bad at using a search engine, or there isn't a single comparative study on the relative benefits of translation services versus English as a Second Language classes online anywhere.

Try searching on bilingual education vs. mainstreaming or English-only in the US - the information will be regarding children rather than adults, but if a difference shows up there it will likely only be magnified in adults.

[Zaune]

Now, historically we did have some places like Chinatowns where the language and culture were retained sometimes for generations, but that is not so much the case as before.

They're still somewhat noticeable in parts of Britain with a high percentage of ethnic Asians, possibly because we had a big surge in immigration from that part of the world immediately after the Second World War. I rather hope they don't disappear in my lifetime, as they tend to be the most interesting part of the town they're in, not to mention the best place to get a curry.
One odd anecdote; a good friend of mine claims to have met a native Urdu speaker who had to teach herself Farsi in order to get by in the English neighbourhood where she found herself living.

One sharp difference between the US and the EU/UK is that, with the US social safety net so thin, immigrants have much more pressure to support themselves, and in many instances that also forces language acquisition.

I can't speak for the rest of the European Union, but it's not all that much better here. Healthcare's free to anyone who needs it, but you have to have been resident for at least seven years before you're entitled to unemployment insurance and our employee-protection laws have glaring loopholes where the right to notice or severance pay is concerned. EU migrant workers are actually worse off in some ways, as since we have no right to deport them we're not interested in helping them get back to someplace they're entitled to something in the way of welfare.

Try searching on bilingual education vs. mainstreaming or English-only in the US - the information will be regarding children rather than adults, but if a difference shows up there it will likely only be magnified in adults.

Will do, thanks. I'll check it out in the morning.