Live Free Or Die?

[Faqa]

Yeah, the title is deliberately simplistic.

Let's go over a few facts:

- Humans, as a species, are due for a few devastating changes in our lives in the next century.

- Our theoretical ability to mitigate this is within the possible.

- Our practical ability is not due to the fact that we have all the unity of primitive tribal apes.

OK. Enter a nice fellow who thinks he can clear up that pesky third point. Let's call him.... Patrick Limbaugh.

Pat is a driven young Christian fundamentalist who is also ridiculously charismatic. He's real opposed to women-folk leaving the kitchen, and wonders just how queers went so very, very wrong.

Now, Pat wants to put these ideas of his into practice. But not through the sinful parties of democracy, oh, no. He wants the whole shebang for himself. He knows God's plan, after all. Why would he leave it up to filthy heathens to screw up? And Pat is smart enough and charming enough that he just might pull it off.

Scary guy, huh? But here's a fun fact - Pat actually believes in point 1 of our little summing up. He feverently believes climate change is happening, that the Earth's resources are running down, that humanity's time is running out. "This", he says, "is a test from God. And if we fail it, if we do not save ourselves, we shall burn". If Pat was running things, you wouldn't hear a word about NASA being underfunded - "God wants us to reach the stars". Pat could restructure suburbia to be more oil-efficient - "It's God's plan that we cease being wasteful with His Gifts". Pat would tell folks that it's sinful to keep burning fossil fuels, and melting ice caps are God's wrath against such things.

Of course, God's not too happy about gay people, either. Or EVILution. Or women voting. No, Pat doesn't want any of those in the world he's creating.

He firmly believes in saving humanity physically as well as spiritually. And he can harness human psychology in ways us fat nerds could barely DREAM of to get what he wants.

Now, Pat doesn't necessarily have to get what he wants. Bad things could happen to him. You, for example. You could shoot him. The pistol is right there in your hands. Just raise it and shoot.

You could also go SDN on him. Publicly embarrass him and his God in public. Ask the hard questions about religion, get people doubting.

Or you could help Pat. Because yes, he and God can always use a hand. If you're willing to repent and serve Jesus, he could certainly use your help in prostelyzing to the unfaithful. After all, who knows the appeal of religion better than those who have viewed it from the outside?

Would you do it, SDN? Would you sacrifice human intellectual freedom - because, make no mistake, within a generation of the Limbaugh education system, human intellectual horizons are going to go back a few centuries - on the altar of survival? Will you trade gay rights for spaceships? Creationism in schools for a world prepared for the energy crunch? Feminism for the halt of global warming?

These ideas are our suburban McMansions, our McDebts, our 2.8 SUVs that we sneer at the plebes for having. Don't they SEE they can't keep it if they want to live? Are they blind?

Well, would you sacrifice your most dearly held principles of how the world should be in order to attain the unity needed to make a world at all? Because, let's face it, religion makes a HELL of a lot more people listen than logic.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Yeah, the title is deliberately simplistic.

Your RAR is also exceedingly simplistic.

Scary guy, huh? But here's a fun fact - Pat actually believes in point 1 of our little summing up. He feverently believes climate change is happening, that the Earth's resources are running down, that humanity's time is running out. "This", he says, "is a test from God. And if we fail it, if we do not save ourselves, we shall burn". If Pat was running things, you wouldn't hear a word about NASA being underfunded - "God wants us to reach the stars". Pat could restructure suburbia to be more oil-efficient - "It's God's plan that we cease being wasteful with His Gifts". Pat would tell folks that it's sinful to keep burning fossil fuels, and melting ice caps are God's wrath against such things.

Of course, God's not too happy about gay people, either. Or EVILution. Or women voting. No, Pat doesn't want any of those in the world he's creating.

The contradiction between your second paragraph and your first is mind-numbing. The Anti-anti-Christ's agenda would run face-first into science. It would also run face-first into women and gay people making up a growing proportion of the people he needs to make the rest of his post-scarcity wank possible. Eventually, the bulk of his world's economic and intellectual output will go towards making viable the huge force of ecclesiastical secret police he'll need to enforce the odious portions of his pact.

He firmly believes in saving humanity physically as well as spiritually. And he can harness human psychology in ways us fat nerds could barely DREAM of to get what he wants.

Only if he gets magical powers. Otherwise, no, he can't. And if he does get magical psychology-altering powers, the logical thing to do would be to shoot him in the face, since 'going SDN' on him is liable to make you a convert, or strange fruit of the first convenient tree the mob can find.

Would you do it, SDN? Would you sacrifice human intellectual freedom - because, make no mistake, within a generation of the Limbaugh education system, human intellectual horizons are going to go back a few centuries - on the altar of survival? Will you trade gay rights for spaceships? Creationism in schools for a world prepared for the energy crunch? Feminism for the halt of global warming?

Within a generation of the Anti-anti-Christ's education system, human intellectual horizons simply won't be able to support spaceships, preparing for the energy crunch, or halting the advance of global warming. The human condition will likewise fall back those few centuries and the resulting mess will be far, far messier than if the Anti-anti-Christ had been hit by a bus.

[kouchpotato]

Why is this guy our "only hope?" There are plenty of reasonable people who believe in point 1 that aren't fundies. I'd support those people rather than this guy. You have also failed to say how he seizes power. From your scenario you seem to say he will turn America into a theocracy... but how? Some hillbilly uprising that somehow defeats the Government? A military coup? Or is this like those fucking rapture novels where he somehow convinces everyone to give him absolute power?

Now, assuming for the sake of argument that he does seize power and that nobody else can save the planet... the obvious thing to do is oppose him. If that is by shooting him in the face at a rally or voting against him at the polls. What would be the point in continuing to survive if only in a theocratic shithole?

[Simon_Jester]

I think Terwynn's point is critical. For the anti-anti-Christ's ambitions to move humanity to a sustainable-growth model and push the space program to work, he needs scientists and engineers. And he's not going to train them, or tolerate them.

Tell biologists that they're not allowed to believe in EVILution, and they won't get anything done. Teach your children to worship conformity and they will not grow up into the kinds of people who can build starships, because they won't have learned to examine their own assumptions. Try to push women into the house, and every woman in the civilized world who's worth a damn will push back; when the smoke clears a lot of them will be dead or brutalized to the point where they might as well be, and they were people you needed to implement your plans.

So this man is just another way for civilization to die; the methods he uses to achieve his ambitions for humanity would prevent those ambitions from ever coming to pass. He's no loss.

[Faqa]

Terwyn and Simon: Your main point is "The approach needed to save humanity cannot be undertaken under this system". I think you underestimate the power of doublethink that even scientists can do. There are, for example, Orthodox Jewish physicists. They discover what they can about the world and they simply do not apply the scientific method to their religious mindset. It's possible, and it exists today. Is it ideal? Of course not. But hypocrisy makes the world turn.

Eventually, the bulk of his world's economic and intellectual output will go towards making viable the huge force of ecclesiastical secret police he'll need to enforce the odious portions of his pact.

Admittedly an issue. I was sort of counting on the AAC(hey, the name beats "Pat")'s control of the educational system to quash that.

I think you're overestimating how difficult it would be to do this, in terms of selling it on personal charisma. Religion is what our minds WANT to believe - it is the result of centuries of rigorous refinement of the scientific method that gives us the tools to question otherwise. People WANT to be a part of the team that's doing the right thing. They want the absolutes that religions give them. All you need is the ultimate irrational tool of personal charisma to package it all properly.

Kouch: That's precisely the point. Do you fall on the "die" side of the equation, then? Because, remember that dead is dead. Gone is gone. Alive, in whatever form, can give you a chance to change things down the line.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just raising the question.

As for the possibility of it - I'm just saying that religion has more of a chance of uniting people than logic does.

[Samuel]

As for the possibility of it - I'm just saying that religion has more of a chance of uniting people than logic does.

Not really. Fundamentalists gain power and they start fighting amoung themselves because the different factions think they are the one true faith and the others are fallen. Remember that the elimination of school prayer wasn't pushed by atheists, but other religious people who were tired of their children being discriminated against.

Would you sacrifice human intellectual freedom - because, make no mistake, within a generation of the Limbaugh education system, human intellectual horizons are going to go back a few centuries - on the altar of survival?

I was under the impression that foreigners existed. Are you telling me that the US really controls the entire world?

I think you underestimate the power of doublethink that even scientists can do. There are, for example, Orthodox Jewish physicists. They discover what they can about the world and they simply do not apply the scientific method to their religious mindset. It's possible, and it exists today. Is it ideal? Of course not. But hypocrisy makes the world turn.

Yes, but this goes beyond that. You are going to get thought police to enforce such a system and scientists are going to be amoung the first to be targeted because their ranks are packed with atheists and non-believers. Send half of them to labor camps and the other half are going to spend the majority of their time politicing and gaming the system because other activities are dangerous and could result in the government disappearing you.

Of course that is ignoring the female scientists and engineers that are no longer available, the anti-intellectualism that well push individuals away from science and the drop in educational quality that will make the scientists who are produced of a lower quality. Make no mistake- evolution is a necesity for biology and biology is a necesity for agriculture.

[Faqa]

I was under the impression that foreigners existed. Are you telling me that the US really controls the entire world?

Let's posit yes for the purposes of the RAR.

the anti-intellectualism that well push individuals away from science

Again, it wouldn't be complete anti-intellectualism. You should be using the Power Of Science(TM). Just only on the things that are in God's Plan.

the drop in educational quality that will make the scientists who are produced of a lower quality

True, and not a point I would dispute. You would be holding back scientific minds.

Nevertheless, consider that these weakened scientists would have FAR more public and govermental support than today's do.

(I know the goverment funds a lot of scientific grants today, but still)

Not really. Fundamentalists gain power and they start fighting amoung themselves because the different factions think they are the one true faith and the others are fallen. Remember that the elimination of school prayer wasn't pushed by atheists, but other religious people who were tired of their children being discriminated against.

And yet, relative to convincing the average person of hard truths and hard actions by logic and evidence.....

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I was under the impression that foreigners existed. Are you telling me that the US really controls the entire world?

Let's posit yes for the purposes of the RAR.

So the Anti-anti-Christ has magic powers, then. The answer is to shoot him in the face.

the anti-intellectualism that well push individuals away from science

Again, it wouldn't be complete anti-intellectualism. You should be using the Power Of Science(TM). Just only on the things that are in God's Plan.

Science doesn't work that way. You cannot have genetic engineering without biology. You cannot have biology without evolution. A scientific mindset also demands that questions be asked, and the Anti-anti-Christ's "God's Plan" tomfoolery is in direct opposition to that.

the drop in educational quality that will make the scientists who are produced of a lower quality

True, and not a point I would dispute. You would be holding back scientific minds.

Nevertheless, consider that these weakened scientists would have FAR more public and govermental support than today's do.

Until they run afoul of the Theocracy's party line. In which case, they vanish into the dungeons of the Inquisition. Unless they spend most of their time gaming the system and politicking around to avoid the Inquisitors or finding the ones they can pay off. The Inquisition will also first stick its nose into the business of scientists and engineers, since these are the sorts of people likely to be filthy Darwinists and atheists; and the ones most likely to succumb to the temptations of intellectual sin. The Inquisition could try to suppress this by threatening to shoot the families of scientists in job lots for the scientist's intellectual sins . . . but this gives rise to the spectre that the Inquisition will end up shooting their families in job lots for other, purely secular, reasons.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Science doesn't work that way. You cannot have genetic engineering without biology. You cannot have biology without evolution. A scientific mindset also demands that questions be asked, and the Anti-anti-Christ's "God's Plan" tomfoolery is in direct opposition to that.

I would like to expand on this somewhat. There are almost no religious scientists, let alone biologists. The ones that are happen to be jews for the most part. How exactly is this nutjob supposed to convince the world's scientists? All that will happen is that they will conduct their research using code words

[Faqa]

Science doesn't work that way. You cannot have genetic engineering without biology. You cannot have biology without evolution. A scientific mindset also demands that questions be asked, and the Anti-anti-Christ's "God's Plan" tomfoolery is in direct opposition to that.

Did you not read my previous response? Scientists can be hypocritical and use doublethink just like anyone else. So, yes, it is possible to apply a scientific mindset to some areas and not others.

They wouldn't be AS GOOD, obviously, but it's possible.

Until they run afoul of the Theocracy's party line. In which case, they vanish into the dungeons of the Inquisition. Unless they spend most of their time gaming the system and politicking around to avoid the Inquisitors or finding the ones they can pay off. The Inquisition will also first stick its nose into the business of scientists and engineers, since these are the sorts of people likely to be filthy Darwinists and atheists; and the ones most likely to succumb to the temptations of intellectual sin. The Inquisition could try to suppress this by threatening to shoot the families of scientists in job lots for the scientist's intellectual sins . . . but this gives rise to the spectre that the Inquisition will end up shooting their families in job lots for other, purely secular, reasons.

You seem to think scientists would be constantly treading on ground that disproves religious beliefs. Why must this neccesarily be so? In many, many fields, you can find out plenty of things without it having to contradict "God did it all".

Remember, the AAC WANTS scientists to do their job. This implies that he will not quash them at the first sign of disobedience.

There are almost no religious scientists, let alone biologists. The ones that are happen to be jews for the most part.

*snort*

I actually did not know that last part. Could you elaborate?

Regardless, is this necessarily irreconcilable? Or is it simply the result of the confrontational attitude a lot of modern Christianity has in the States?

How exactly is this nutjob supposed to convince the world's scientists?

The initial generation? He's not supposed to. Scientists are not, after all, a sufficiently large or powerful group to pose a threat to him. And people with a scientific mindset are very precisely NOT part of the problem this RAR is attempting to address.

All that will happen is that they will conduct their research using code words

Interesting result. What happens when they have to write a grant proposal on the matter?

[Kanastrous]

What happens when they have to write a grant proposal on the matter?

It will be unreadable and filled with gobbledegook?

Oh, you already covered that, when describing it as a grant proposal...

[aerius]

Terwyn and Simon: Your main point is "The approach needed to save humanity cannot be undertaken under this system". I think you underestimate the power of doublethink that even scientists can do. There are, for example, Orthodox Jewish physicists. They discover what they can about the world and they simply do not apply the scientific method to their religious mindset. It's possible, and it exists today. Is it ideal? Of course not. But hypocrisy makes the world turn.

It works on an individual basis and on a small scale, but not as a system. When the entire educational system must follow a religious code starting at childhood, it does not foster scientific thought and is in fact hostile to it. This has 2 effects; it greatly reduces the number of scientists & engineers you're going to get from a given population, and the ones you do get will be far less skilled. You'll be dependent on the works of the 1 in 100 million prodigies who somehow make it through the system, and those people won't have anyone to make their ideas into real world applications nor do the tedious gruntwork for them. You'll basically end up with a handful of people writing down the equivalent of Leonardo da Vinci's sketchbooks, lots of pretty futuristic ideas which no one can apply for the next few hundred years.

[Junghalli]

I'm not anywhere near convinced that the present situation is bad enough that a horrible dictatorship like this guy wants to create is an acceptable price for a government more capable of dealing with our present problems, so put me down with the "shoot him in the face" crowd.

[Alyrium Denryle]

*snort*

I actually did not know that last part. Could you elaborate?

Regardless, is this necessarily irreconcilable? Or is it simply the result of the confrontational attitude a lot of modern Christianity has in the States?

Let me spell this out.

Most scientists conform their beliefs to reality. It is why most scientists are also very liberal ( ). The ones that are not atheists come from religions which have long intellectual traditions which do not require that they make science subordinate to religion. Jews (especially jews, for historical reasons going back to the writings of rabbinical jews in the medieval period), Hindus, and VERY liberal christians. Barring them, most scientists demand evidence for claims made about just about anything, it is one of the hallmarks of the type of person who becomes a scientist. A very small minority (those mentioned above) can compartmentalize and just not question the existence of a supernatural entity who does not interact with the world much, if at all. What they wont, indeed cannot do is accept a religious explanation for something science can answer and has already done so in the negative (with respect to the religious claim).

It just so happens to be these claims, such as mandating Creationism, A young earth/universe etc which undermines the basis for all of these fields. Without the breakdown of relativity and QM at the beginning of the universe, theoretical physics comes to a standstill, without evolution biology just... doesnt work. You CANNOT do biology at all except for descriptive anatomy without evolution as a basis. Geology does not exist in any meaningful sense if the earth is young. Plate tectonics? Gone. Erosion? Gone.

[Zaune]

Do the second and third options have to be mutually exclusive? You don't have to agree with someone about everything in order to work together towards a common purpose, and nor does it automatically rule out debate and compromise.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Do the second and third options have to be mutually exclusive? You don't have to agree with someone about everything in order to work together towards a common purpose, and nor does it automatically rule out debate and compromise.

Fundies dont compromise in good faith, as a rule.

[Samuel]

Let's posit yes for the purposes of the RAR.

In that case the Chinese and Indians under the American world state vote for massive social programs to help themselves and the rich part of the country sets up space and science programs to preserve jobs and status for white people the educated and civilized elite.

A world under one government is going to easily be able to carry out these goals just by shifting resources to meet voter demands. Global warming is a public bad problem solved by a single world government, consumerism will be solved when the third world increases the tax rates to pay for all the fun things like sanitation, schools, medicine, electricity and roads they need and going into space becomes easier when you can simply dump the military budget into their laps.

You seem to think scientists would be constantly treading on ground that disproves religious beliefs. Why must this neccesarily be so? In many, many fields, you can find out plenty of things without it having to contradict "God did it all".

Except in the fields of cosmology, biology and psychology (or whatever you call understanding the mind so you can program computers). Guess which ones are needed for the advance into the future to work?

[kouchpotato]

Kouch: That's precisely the point. Do you fall on the "die" side of the equation, then? Because, remember that dead is dead. Gone is gone. Alive, in whatever form, can give you a chance to change things down the line.

Considering the grip he seems to have on the country, it seems unlikely that change will come within my life time or even my children's. Egro, I suppose given the parameters of this scenario I fall under the "die" side. It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

[Pelranius]

Let me spell this out.

Most scientists conform their beliefs to reality. It is why most scientists are also very liberal ( ). The ones that are not atheists come from religions which have long intellectual traditions which do not require that they make science subordinate to religion. Jews (especially jews, for historical reasons going back to the writings of rabbinical jews in the medieval period), Hindus, and VERY liberal christians. Barring them, most scientists demand evidence for claims made about just about anything, it is one of the hallmarks of the type of person who becomes a scientist. A very small minority (those mentioned above) can compartmentalize and just not question the existence of a supernatural entity who does not interact with the world much, if at all. What they wont, indeed cannot do is accept a religious explanation for something science can answer and has already done so in the negative (with respect to the religious claim).

It just so happens to be these claims, such as mandating Creationism, A young earth/universe etc which undermines the basis for all of these fields. Without the breakdown of relativity and QM at the beginning of the universe, theoretical physics comes to a standstill, without evolution biology just... doesnt work. You CANNOT do biology at all except for descriptive anatomy without evolution as a basis. Geology does not exist in any meaningful sense if the earth is young. Plate tectonics? Gone. Erosion? Gone.

In my experience, conservative scientists tend to be pretty dysfunctional, in terms of personality and relationship. Take my ultraconservative father for example, he has a PhD in electrical engineering, works for a large company in a high position and his social life is a complete mess (so is my mother with a computer science master's, but she's never even held a job in her life...).

[LionElJonson]

Speaking as a fairly devout Christian who plans to start a rocket company, I totally support him. Then I ask him for all of the funding he can give me.

I don't care what he does to the educational system; the current crop of engineers should easily be enough to get the Orion off the ground, and as time goes on, even if the quality of the newly graduated engineers goes down, I could just implement an on-the-job training program. Besides, let's be honest, here. Whether or not you believe in God doesn't really have much impact on your ability to crunch numbers or design things.

Also, I don't care much what he does to the field of biology; the Singularity will come, and I'll live forever anyway. Maybe I'd even be able to convince him to funnel grants to pro-Singularity organizations by basically telling him that imitation is the best form of flattery, and that not only would we become godlike in power, but also in benevolence thanks to recursive self-improvement. Being the guy running the spaceships needed to save humanity would probably help convincing him; politicians tend to be corruptable by big business, which is definitely what I'd be by that point. I, personally, would definitely be giving large donations to organizations like the Singularity Institute (and not just as a tax write-off, either).

[PaperJack]

In my opinion, this Patrick Limbaugh fellow sounds like Hitler.
"Vote me, sure, I do have some bad policies, but I promise I'll fix the economy and whatever problems this nation has!"
He did fix Germany's economy, and he did transform it back into a powerful nation, but we all know how it ended.

[kouchpotato]

Speaking as a fairly devout Christian who plans to start a rocket company, I totally support him. Then I ask him for all of the funding he can give me.

Well, for one, if he's an environmentalist, he's even less likely than the Indian government ot give you nukes or let you make an Orion rocket.

I don't care what he does to the educational system

Okay you selfish piece of fucking shit.

the current crop of engineers should easily be enough to get the Orion off the ground

See my first point.

and as time goes on, even if the quality of the newly graduated engineers goes down, I could just implement an on-the-job training program. Besides, let's be honest, here. Whether or not you believe in God doesn't really have much impact on your ability to crunch numbers or design things.

No but these people tend to be shitty scientists, as a scientist needs to look at things based on evidence not faith.

Also, I don't care much what he does to the field of biology;

As a person who apparently wants to send an advanced rocket into space you sure seem like an anti-intellectual cunt.

the Singularity will come, and I'll live forever anyway. Maybe I'd even be able to convince him to funnel grants to pro-Singularity organizations by basically telling him that imitation is the best form of flattery, and that not only would we become godlike in power, but also in benevolence thanks to recursive self-improvement.

Check your bible for what happened the last time people tried to imitate a God. Here's a hint, it involved a giant fucking tower.

Being the guy running the spaceships needed to save humanity would probably help convincing him;

He won't need you to save anything. He's already tackled peak oil and climate change, two of the larger threats to the world. Secondly, you seem like a delusional idiot. There are people way more qualified than you to run a space program... and from your posting you haven't said how you will accomplish any of these goals you've put forth.

politicians tend to be corruptable by big business, which is definitely what I'd be by that point. I, personally, would definitely be giving large donations to organizations like the Singularity Institute (and not just as a tax write-off, either).

Apart from delusional rambling about being a savior and shit, you still haven't addressed how you feel about him oppressing gays, atheists, women, scientists... basically anyone who isn't a male Christian of his denomination. Or did you just ignore this so you can go on about your mystical nuclear space program?

[aerius]

I don't care what he does to the educational system; the current crop of engineers should easily be enough to get the Orion off the ground, and as time goes on, even if the quality of the newly graduated engineers goes down, I could just implement an on-the-job training program. Besides, let's be honest, here. Whether or not you believe in God doesn't really have much impact on your ability to crunch numbers or design things.

Doesn't work that way in the real world. On the job training works fine for simple maintenance tasks such as keeping a car engine in good repair. It doesn't teach you why or how it works, how to make it work better, or how to fix it when the problem isn't covered in the manual. There's a reason that Boeing doesn't hire average Joes off the street to build airplanes, you can't train the average to do the required jobs without going through a ridiculous number of candidates and wasting god knows how much time getting them up to speed. And you're talking about fucking rockets which are a hell of a lot more advanced and demanding to work with.

The technology we have in our society exists because we have the eduction system to provide the highly abstract and theoretical background behind all the shiny toys. Take the microchips that are running your computer, it's an electrical engineering and computer science problem, right? We'll just teach a bunch of people EE and computers and the chips are good. Guess what? You'd be dead wrong if you think that's how it works.

The photolithography machines required to make the chips have some very fun stuff in them. The chip features are currently so small that diffraction corrected masks are required. Which means you'll need physicists and optical engineers to calculate the diffraction effects. Next, the lenses in the machines, they're made out of special optical glass with all kinds of unusual properties. Which means a whole bunch of chemists & physicists to do the theoretical modeling before they can even mix up the batch of glass, then all the specialists needed to actually produce it. After that, more scientists to figure out the how to shape the various lenses for the desired performance. And that's just for the lens and etch-resist mask, which are 2 out of the hundreds of steps required for making a computer chip. To build the entire chip requires highly trained specialists in ALL areas of science & engineering.

Your rocket ship is going to be even more involved. It will require a greater number of highly trained scientists & engineers from all areas. Their jobs do not end when the space ship gets off the ground, they're all needed as long as the program is running, if their skill level drops off in the future the program crashes.

[Simon_Jester]

Speaking as a fairly devout Christian who plans to start a rocket company, I totally support him. Then I ask him for all of the funding he can give me.

I don't care what he does to the educational system; the current crop of engineers should easily be enough to get the Orion off the ground, and as time goes on, even if the quality of the newly graduated engineers goes down, I could just implement an on-the-job training program. Besides, let's be honest, here. Whether or not you believe in God doesn't really have much impact on your ability to crunch numbers or design things.

...Do you think it's a coincidence that India and China (with few religious fanatics) produce a great many engineers, while the Muslim world (with many more religious fanatics) produces so few?

See, engineers need critical thinking skills as much as scientists do, if not more. They have to be able to recognize that "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." It's possible, of course, for an engineer to be enough of a fanatic to keep the inquisitors happy in this system. But only a fraction of all the engineers there are will. The rest die, or retire and keep a low profile. That makes your (already ludicrously unrealistic) plans for an Orion drive ship even less likely to succeed.

Also, I don't care much what he does to the field of biology; the Singularity will come, and I'll live forever anyway.

How? Do you really think we will figure out how to do personality uploads without people who understand the brain? Or that AI research won't be gutted by the fact that so many of its leading lights are open atheists?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Speaking as a fairly devout Christian who plans to start a rocket company, I totally support him. Then I ask him for all of the funding he can give me.

And you will be on the Wall when the counter-revolution comes.

I don't care what he does to the educational system; the current crop of engineers should easily be enough to get the Orion off the ground

Good luck getting a navigation system for that Orion when you have killed all the cosmologists and physicists necessary.

, and as time goes on, even if the quality of the newly graduated engineers goes down, I could just implement an on-the-job training program. Besides, let's be honest, here. Whether or not you believe in God doesn't really have much impact on your ability to crunch numbers or design things.

What happens when the basic science you depend on stagnates? How do you survey a new planet when the atheist geologist is dead?

Also, I don't care much what he does to the field of biology; the Singularity will come, and I'll live forever anyway.

The singularity can never come when all of your biologists, computer scientists, psychologists, and neuroscientists are dead. And they will be, because hardly a one of them is a theist let alone a christian. Those who are are either jews or hindus.