Moderator: Thanas
Wow I must really suck at this game. Free win? I'm just gonna burn my copy now and cry, as I've lost several games to Zerg players. It's my own fault I suck this bad.Minischoles wrote:Terran are the best race atm, far and away in fact. Vs a zerg player, it's practically a free win.
Two ways, the archive gives you access, though I don't believe you'll get pay and research for them. Replay the campaign and choose differently.houser2112 wrote:I hear that the SP storyline progress is saved as part of your single (per key) profile rather than as a save slot. I know you can replay missions to get achievements, but is there a way to play missions on the initially unchosen branch? If not, that seems really crappy that there would be missions that are forever unavailable to you.
I really do not believe that - you must have played against unskilled Zerg players.Minischoles wrote:Terran are the best race atm, far and away in fact. Vs a zerg player, it's practically a free win. They have the easiest early game, since they can wall off and defend their base from scouting very early on, with the two other races basic mineral only units being melee classes, you can sit behind that wall and annihilate them with marines. You also get the easiest scout (even if you don't use SCVs) with the scan from Orbital Command.
You can't play the hidden mission though, if you didn't unlock it in your initial playthrough. (And it's very funGaidin wrote:Two ways, the archive gives you access, though I don't believe you'll get pay and research for them. Replay the campaign and choose differently.houser2112 wrote:I hear that the SP storyline progress is saved as part of your single (per key) profile rather than as a save slot. I know you can replay missions to get achievements, but is there a way to play missions on the initially unchosen branch? If not, that seems really crappy that there would be missions that are forever unavailable to you.
. I started anew compaign just for completeness).What strategy was that? It sounds rather insanely difficult.Thanas wrote:On another note, I really wish there would be a way to up singleplayer difficulty beyond brutal. I am replaying the campaign now and so far the only mission that gave me any trouble was the last Protoss mission. And even that one was easy with the right strategy, allowing me to get 3000+ kills.Minischoles wrote:Terran are the best race atm, far and away in fact. Vs a zerg player, it's practically a free win. They have the easiest early game, since they can wall off and defend their base from scouting very early on, with the two other races basic mineral only units being melee classes, you can sit behind that wall and annihilate them with marines. You also get the easiest scout (even if you don't use SCVs) with the scan from Orbital Command.
I've been playing a number of arranged team games with some friends lately, and I do indeed notice that more and more people try and go for the 'rush as fast as possible' strategy. Here's the deal: it doesn't work if you get scouted early enough, and this will happen with any good player. The moment I see that the enemies are building two gateways or two barrackses, the others will do likewise to counter your rush. Given the delay in your troops getting to the enemy's base, they will have the same amount of troops and the advantage of instant reinforcements. It's only possible to get out four zealots while the others only get their first few units if the others are playing subpar.Crossroads Inc. wrote:As far as good ways to win, more and more it seems to come down to who rushes faster. Often if I find myself playing with protoss on my team, I urge a "3 zealot 4 marine" rush. Which works out to 6 zealots and 4 marines in most games. That is usually enough to kill any one player within the first 3 to 5min of the game. Really Protoss are the new kings of "zerg rush" now. With the "time warp" feature needing only 25 energy, they can easily pump out (if your dedicated) 4 zealots when others are just getting thier first few units.
Defend the highground, pump out cannons, colossi and void rays. Abandon the lower ground. If your macro is good, station a mobile force around the archive.Zed wrote:What strategy was that? It sounds rather insanely difficult.Thanas wrote:On another note, I really wish there would be a way to up singleplayer difficulty beyond brutal. I am replaying the campaign now and so far the only mission that gave me any trouble was the last Protoss mission. And even that one was easy with the right strategy, allowing me to get 3000+ kills.Minischoles wrote:Terran are the best race atm, far and away in fact. Vs a zerg player, it's practically a free win. They have the easiest early game, since they can wall off and defend their base from scouting very early on, with the two other races basic mineral only units being melee classes, you can sit behind that wall and annihilate them with marines. You also get the easiest scout (even if you don't use SCVs) with the scan from Orbital Command.
How did you beat the "Collecting Terrazine" mission against the Taldarim Protoss on brutal? My brother is trying that one on brutal, and it's kicking his ass.Thanas wrote:On another note, I really wish there would be a way to up singleplayer difficulty beyond brutal. I am replaying the campaign now and so far the only mission that gave me any trouble was the last Protoss mission. And even that one was easy with the right strategy, allowing me to get 3000+ kills.
Marines, medics, marauders, goliaths. Best to keep the MMM group and the Goliaths in separate groups. Use goliaths vs air units, MMM vs everything. Eventually the Protoss will start sending colossi at you. Send the goliaths in first, then the MMM squad. For your forces, build them en masse. Assault the middle base ASAP, set up shop there. It should be the second or third thing you do in the mission, after repelling the first or second altar capping expeditions (if you're wondering, I did this mission on brutal but also trying to get the achievement on hard). Fortify your expansion, keep constantly fortifying your mobile force. Hotkey your barracks and factories (sorry if that sounds patronisingly obvious, not my intent) and rally point where needed (having the middle expansion will increase your resource flow obviously, but also serve as a great staging area for your dudes).Guardsman Bass wrote:How did you beat the "Collecting Terrazine" mission against the Taldarim Protoss on brutal? My brother is trying that one on brutal, and it's kicking his ass.Thanas wrote:On another note, I really wish there would be a way to up singleplayer difficulty beyond brutal. I am replaying the campaign now and so far the only mission that gave me any trouble was the last Protoss mission. And even that one was easy with the right strategy, allowing me to get 3000+ kills.
I think he's talking about the last mission of the Zeratul mini-campaign.Guardsman Bass wrote:How did you beat the "Collecting Terrazine" mission against the Taldarim Protoss on brutal? My brother is trying that one on brutal, and it's kicking his ass.Thanas wrote:On another note, I really wish there would be a way to up singleplayer difficulty beyond brutal. I am replaying the campaign now and so far the only mission that gave me any trouble was the last Protoss mission. And even that one was easy with the right strategy, allowing me to get 3000+ kills.
That really only works in the first five minutes and really kills your vespine gas. Try this on brutal...Stofsk wrote:Alternative strategy is to wall off the three bridges with dark templar. Bewarned you need to have a good air force to deal with overseers, but assuming you can get them quick enough (one point the zerg fucked me because they sent in 3 overseers on one bridge and an overseer on the other bridge, and i encountered the limits of this strategy - my air fleet needed to be stronger.) Assuming you can get the overseers quick enough, there is nothing the zerg can do if you wall off the bridge good enough. Don't even bother with cannons either (even walled off the zerg can still hit them at range; instead, build colossi)
I like how you nowhere mention that I told you about that strategy in PM.Stofsk wrote:Marines, medics, marauders, goliaths. Best to keep the MMM group and the Goliaths in separate groups. Use goliaths vs air units, MMM vs everything. Eventually the Protoss will start sending colossi at you. Send the goliaths in first, then the MMM squad. For your forces, build them en masse. Assault the middle base ASAP, set up shop there. It should be the second or third thing you do in the mission, after repelling the first or second altar capping expeditions (if you're wondering, I did this mission on brutal but also trying to get the achievement on hard). Fortify your expansion, keep constantly fortifying your mobile force. Hotkey your barracks and factories (sorry if that sounds patronisingly obvious, not my intent) and rally point where needed (having the middle expansion will increase your resource flow obviously, but also serve as a great staging area for your dudes).Guardsman Bass wrote:How did you beat the "Collecting Terrazine" mission against the Taldarim Protoss on brutal? My brother is trying that one on brutal, and it's kicking his ass.
Except if you read any of the SC2 forums (something like Team Liquid) you'll see far and away that nearly every Diamond league player agrees that Terran vs Zerg is hideously unbalanced right now. Terran have the advantage in any match up, and when a zerg wins it's because he vastly outplays his opponent, or his opponent makes a stupid mistake (spamming out the wrong units). Talking about SC1 in relation to SC2 is retarded, SC1 was balanced, BW a little more so (Zerg had a lot of options) but SC2 has stripped zerg of a number of interesting options, and any interesting options found in the beta were nerfed - see the Nydus worm, the spine crawler burrow time.Zed wrote:What strategy was that? It sounds rather insanely difficult.Thanas wrote:On another note, I really wish there would be a way to up singleplayer difficulty beyond brutal. I am replaying the campaign now and so far the only mission that gave me any trouble was the last Protoss mission. And even that one was easy with the right strategy, allowing me to get 3000+ kills.Minischoles wrote:Terran are the best race atm, far and away in fact. Vs a zerg player, it's practically a free win. They have the easiest early game, since they can wall off and defend their base from scouting very early on, with the two other races basic mineral only units being melee classes, you can sit behind that wall and annihilate them with marines. You also get the easiest scout (even if you don't use SCVs) with the scan from Orbital Command.
Minischoles, you're whining about balance because you can't handle particular strategies or approaches decently yourself. The Terran ability to wall off, scan and start out with ranged classes was already present in the first Starcraft, which is perhaps the most balanced three-way strategy game out there (in its current form). It's unlikely that Starcraft 2 doesn't have any balance issues given its relatively recent release, but claims like "Terran is the best, far and away, practically a free win" are just flat-out unfounded.
Except that in Korea the Zerg players needed nerfing because they were rocking face constantly in the beta so it may just be a play style issue.Minischoles wrote:Except if you read any of the SC2 forums (something like Team Liquid) you'll see far and away that nearly every Diamond league player agrees that Terran vs Zerg is hideously unbalanced right now. Terran have the advantage in any match up, and when a zerg wins it's because he vastly outplays his opponent, or his opponent makes a stupid mistake (spamming out the wrong units). Talking about SC1 in relation to SC2 is retarded, SC1 was balanced, BW a little more so (Zerg had a lot of options) but SC2 has stripped zerg of a number of interesting options, and any interesting options found in the beta were nerfed - see the Nydus worm, the spine crawler burrow time.
SC1 and BW were balanced, but if you had any experience of Diamond League you'd realise my 'unfounded' claims are agreed by practically every high level player (admittedly I probably overstated it a little). When a zerg player has to flat out outplay the terran at every moment of the game, and the final late game strategy is essentially 'hope you kill enough of his army that you can replace your 200/200 army faster than him and break the choke' something is wrong.
In lower leagues, where typically the zerg players aren't that good, it's even worse.
I didn't try it, I did it, last night. I saw it on youtube, and it works.Thanas wrote:That really only works in the first five minutes and really kills your vespine gas. Try this on brutal...Stofsk wrote:Alternative strategy is to wall off the three bridges with dark templar. Bewarned you need to have a good air force to deal with overseers, but assuming you can get them quick enough (one point the zerg fucked me because they sent in 3 overseers on one bridge and an overseer on the other bridge, and i encountered the limits of this strategy - my air fleet needed to be stronger.) Assuming you can get the overseers quick enough, there is nothing the zerg can do if you wall off the bridge good enough. Don't even bother with cannons either (even walled off the zerg can still hit them at range; instead, build colossi)
Sorry, it was unintentional. Full credit should go to you for helping me out.I like how you nowhere mention that I told you about that strategy in PM.Stofsk wrote:Marines, medics, marauders, goliaths. Best to keep the MMM group and the Goliaths in separate groups. Use goliaths vs air units, MMM vs everything. Eventually the Protoss will start sending colossi at you. Send the goliaths in first, then the MMM squad. For your forces, build them en masse. Assault the middle base ASAP, set up shop there. It should be the second or third thing you do in the mission, after repelling the first or second altar capping expeditions (if you're wondering, I did this mission on brutal but also trying to get the achievement on hard). Fortify your expansion, keep constantly fortifying your mobile force. Hotkey your barracks and factories (sorry if that sounds patronisingly obvious, not my intent) and rally point where needed (having the middle expansion will increase your resource flow obviously, but also serve as a great staging area for your dudes).Guardsman Bass wrote:How did you beat the "Collecting Terrazine" mission against the Taldarim Protoss on brutal? My brother is trying that one on brutal, and it's kicking his ass.
The third problem is the biggest part, right now Zerg feel really incomplete, but the game is supposed to be competitive now. It's no use saying 'oh zerg will get better in HoS' because that's a good time away, and leaving zerg at a disadvantage vs Terran isn't so good. The second problem is also a fairly large one, right now as I said, a zerg player needs to drastically outplay a Terran player to have the same effect. Watching someone like Idra's replays illustrates how he outplays his opponents as zerg, and yet even then it eventually just comes down to nothing better than sheer brute force vs a turtling terran - try and find the Idra vs Drewbie game, Drewbie plays Terran absolutely abysmally, yet he's still able to wipe out huge amounts of Idras army time and time again, until it finally gets to a point where Idra can lose his entire army and still pump out a complete 200/200 army before his opponent can.Dark Hellion wrote:Some of what you say is true minoscholes, but you are hideously overstating it and leaving out a lot of key facts.
Firstly, the game is still new. Zerg's major strategy (mass roach) got nerfed in the beta and people are still trying to figure out a lot of what they can do. Several of their units are currently not being used to anywhere near the full potential because no one knows how. For example, about once a week some high level pro will figure out some new trick that they can do with the infestor. Also, because the game is new and build orders and timings are still in flux abilities like the overseers contaminate are not as powerful as they will be when builds become more standardized.
Secondly, Zerg are very fiddly in SCII. The spreading of creep, the use of Queens abilities, proper expansion timing and placement, burrowing, etc. all eat into a players APM if they are just trying to power through it without a smooth flow and strategy. Right now we see a lot of "safe" builds like IDRA which do well because they have this figured out. But other players like KHB in early beta and now TheLittleOne are really pushing and figuring out new ways to do this.
Finally, Zerg are probably missing certain pieces because the first expansion will be the "Zerg" expansion. We saw much the same thing with SCI. Without broodwar the game just feels incomplete. As much as Blizzard likes to pretend that SCII is fully complete, there are obvious holes (contain strategies, mobile AA for certain teams, certain drop strats, etc.) that will be filled in with the expansions and which Bliz are utilizing for making their long term balance decisions.
Additionally, it hasn't had enough millions of manhours of Koreans playing it yet. Give em a few more days.
Huh. Conceded then.Stofsk wrote:I didn't try it, I did it, last night. I saw it on youtube, and it works.Thanas wrote:That really only works in the first five minutes and really kills your vespine gas. Try this on brutal...Stofsk wrote:Alternative strategy is to wall off the three bridges with dark templar. Bewarned you need to have a good air force to deal with overseers, but assuming you can get them quick enough (one point the zerg fucked me because they sent in 3 overseers on one bridge and an overseer on the other bridge, and i encountered the limits of this strategy - my air fleet needed to be stronger.) Assuming you can get the overseers quick enough, there is nothing the zerg can do if you wall off the bridge good enough. Don't even bother with cannons either (even walled off the zerg can still hit them at range; instead, build colossi)
Dude, the infestor can be a real pain. I had several drop behind my lines, blow one of my vespane refineries with infested Marines (which I was shocked to see are kinda good now) and my armory. I survived by saying "fuck vaspane" and making a massive Marine only force, backed by medvacs (my expansion was just getting up so it took awhile for me to get some new vespane coming in that wasn't compromised). The infestors survived awhile before I overwhelmed them with that force.Dark Hellion wrote:Some of what you say is true minoscholes, but you are hideously overstating it and leaving out a lot of key facts.
Firstly, the game is still new. Zerg's major strategy (mass roach) got nerfed in the beta and people are still trying to figure out a lot of what they can do. Several of their units are currently not being used to anywhere near the full potential because no one knows how. For example, about once a week some high level pro will figure out some new trick that they can do with the infestor. Also, because the game is new and build orders and timings are still in flux abilities like the overseers contaminate are not as powerful as they will be when builds become more standardized.
TheLittleOne is probably my favorite SC player. He's quite nice to talk to as well.Dark Hellion wrote:Secondly, Zerg are very fiddly in SCII. The spreading of creep, the use of Queens abilities, proper expansion timing and placement, burrowing, etc. all eat into a players APM if they are just trying to power through it without a smooth flow and strategy. Right now we see a lot of "safe" builds like IDRA which do well because they have this figured out. But other players like KHB in early beta and now TheLittleOne are really pushing and figuring out new ways to do this.
