God Emperor vs God emperor (Dune vs Warhammer 40k)

[Connor MacLeod]

The idea that it was an actual manifestation of the Emperor power is made by fans..... and fans only.

Not quite. The Thorian Sourcebook makes it rather clear there is a subset of the Inquisition who strongly believe that Sebastian Thor was an Avatar of the Emperor, and hence could act as a conduit for his power (much in the same way Euphrati Keeler seems to be in the Horus Heresy novels.) It should be noted that in the Inquisitors are typically portrayed as favoring logic and reason over religious fervor and zealotry that the Ecclesiarchy likes (there is in fact a bit of a rift between parts of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition for that reason, particularily amongst the Thorians IIRC.)

Of course, its also clear that this is what Games workshop intend it to be, that readers should believe that the storm was created by the Emperor but the canonical position is like I said, deliberately left ambiguous.

Frankly I find arguments based on "authors intent" to be full of shit and should be avoided at all cost.

BTW, for those who constantly harp about SW Galactic Empire instability vs the IoM, one should note that the Confederacy of Light "army" reached only 5 million followers in a year, sufficient to threaten Vandire. The addition of new followers and the Techguard/Black Templars could have inflated their numbers to the tens of millions... and this force was sufficient to invade Earth and fight its way INTO the Emperor palace.(a sparser reading suggests that the initial landing were forced by the TechGuards and Marines...... only). Perhaps before fans harp about how the Imperium is more politically stable than the GE, they should reread the age of Apotasy and the Plague of Unbelief.

Er, what source are you actually reading?

1.) The warp storm activity prevalant during the Age of Apostasy had as much if not more to do with the resultant anarchy as the political struggles between the Ecclesiarchy and the Adminsitratum. Those storms lasted centuries remember, and that's lots of time for things to start breaking down (at least on the long range - the storms are mentioned to actually only make long range travel hazardous to nigh impossible, shorter ranged warp travel was relatively safer, although how short that is is up for debate, aside from the fact it encompassed multiple systems supposedly.) And that Warp storm activity can disrupt the Imperium is hardly a shocking revelation or weakness.

2.) Where was it stated that the Confederacy of Light invaded? From what I read it wsa the AdMech forces on Mars (the biggest and most powerful center of the ADMech, no less.) assisted by four Chapters (the Fists, the Black Templars, the Soul Drinkers, and the Fire Hawks.) And that was only a mentioned 10K Daughters of the Emperor or so (Vandire had ordered army and Navy forces to attack the Space Marines and AdMech directly, but such orderes were refused.) and they invaded a building that was explicitly stated to be in a state of decline. On top of that, at a later date the Custodian Guard actually got involved (and wre instrumental in turning the Daughters against Vandire.) You're reading far more into this than evidence suggests.

3.) there was a massive reorganization of the Imperium after Vandire died. That changes things omore than a bit.

[SapphireFox]

Who they gonna nuke? House Atreides no longer existed, certainly they no longer owned any planets or land, no military forces. Besides, the few remaining rebels were only using shields, like anyone else, and it's not their fault if some loony is firing a laser about (that's their story, and they're sticking to it). Finally, the situation was different than what I believe the Convention was intended for, which was to prevent nuclear devices being used to attack other Houses.

Oh I don't know... maybe HOUSE HARKONNEN! After all this incident was during the attack on House Atreides. From an uninformed outside observers perspective this looks exactly like the sort of thing the great convention was designed to prevent, a nuclear weapon used during/in an attack on another house.

Also on your comment about owned land unless there is something squirrely happening the Atreides still own/rule caladan. When the Harkonnens were originaly granted the arrakis fiefdom by the emperor (not the second time when they attacked the Atreides) they didn't have to give up Geidi Prime or any other world. Nor has it been said anywhere that when the emperor grants a fiefdom (such as when the emperor granted the atreides arrakis) that they must give up control of a world they already possess.

Very true, and if attacked by the Star Wars Universe, the God Emperor will have access to plentiful very cheap pseudo-atomics. I don't expect it to help much.

Huh? What the heck are you talking about? Star Wars who the hell said anything about star wars? This is Dune vs 40k not Dune vs SW.

The use of a shield/las weapon resembles a nuke too much, hence, the Great Conventions which bar the use of nuclear weapons would had retaliated before the truth came out. That's the danger, the fact that the las explosion looks too much like a nuke at first glance.

I agree that the use of the shield/las effect as a dedicated weapon during the Great Convention era would be a bad idea. After all no one wants to be fried because of a mistaken idea that you used a banned weapon.

However during the Leto II era the rules of Great Conventions are mostly out the window. It is just the rule of the chief worm on arrakis. So the use of the shield/las effect as a dedicated weapon during the Vs scenario is legit so long as Leto II allows it.

[PainRack]

Not quite. The Thorian Sourcebook makes it rather clear there is a subset of the Inquisition who strongly believe that Sebastian Thor was an Avatar of the Emperor, and hence could act as a conduit for his power (much in the same way Euphrati Keeler seems to be in the Horus Heresy novels.) It should be noted that in the Inquisitors are typically portrayed as favoring logic and reason over religious fervor and zealotry that the Ecclesiarchy likes (there is in fact a bit of a rift between parts of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition for that reason, particularily amongst the Thorians IIR

I don't have the source in front of me, but IIRC, the Aspect was used to explain Thor oratory and prescience powers, as well as his ability to transit or even smooth warpspace.

Similarly, I'm not making an argument based entirely on author intent. I'm just pointing out that while the author intent may be inclined towards a certain viewpoint, the actual evidence is left ambiguous.

Er, what source are you actually reading?

1.) The warp storm activity prevalant during the Age of Apostasy had as much if not more to do with the resultant anarchy as the political struggles between the Ecclesiarchy and the Adminsitratum. Those storms lasted centuries remember, and that's lots of time for things to start breaking down (at least on the long range - the storms are mentioned to actually only make long range travel hazardous to nigh impossible, shorter ranged warp travel was relatively safer, although how short that is is up for debate, aside from the fact it encompassed multiple systems supposedly.) And that Warp storm activity can disrupt the Imperium is hardly a shocking revelation or weakness.

The storms in question lasted decades. Furthermore, you appear to be ignoring the context. The standard boilerplate is that the Galactic Empire is substantially unstable because the battle of Endor resulted in its "collapse" whereas the Imperium has survived millenia and countless crisis without collapsing. That's misleading. The Age of Apotasy is an example where a rebellion did result in its upheaval. The sole difference is that unlike the New Republic, the name remained the same.

In this case, the scale of the "rebellion" in the Imperium is significantly SMALLER.

2.) Where was it stated that the Confederacy of Light invaded? From what I read it wsa the AdMech forces on Mars (the biggest and most powerful center of the ADMech, no less.) assisted by four Chapters (the Fists, the Black Templars, the Soul Drinkers, and the Fire Hawks.) And that was only a mentioned 10K Daughters of the Emperor or so (Vandire had ordered army and Navy forces to attack the Space Marines and AdMech directly, but such orderes were refused.) and they invaded a building that was explicitly stated to be in a state of decline. On top of that, at a later date the Custodian Guard actually got involved (and wre instrumental in turning the Daughters against Vandire.) You're reading far more into this than evidence suggests.

You DID note that my paragraph contained the "a sparser reading suggests that the initial landing were forced by the TechGuards and Marines...... only".

And again, you utterly ignored the context in which fans have made arguments against the Galactic Civil war such as the Battle of Endor and etc.

[Korto]

...in House Corrino...

As for Kevin J Anderson.... the less said the better.

Ahh, House Corrino is a book. That explains my not remembering the attack. I regard all post Frank Herbert Dune as fan fiction, and from accounts not very good either.

Who they gonna nuke? House Atreides no longer existed, certainly they no longer owned any planets or land, no military forces. Besides, the few remaining rebels were only using shields, like anyone else, and it's not their fault if some loony is firing a laser about (that's their story, and they're sticking to it). Finally, the situation was different than what I believe the Convention was intended for, which was to prevent nuclear devices being used to attack other Houses.

Oh I don't know... maybe HOUSE HARKONNEN! After all this incident was during the attack on House Atreides. From an uninformed outside observers perspective this looks exactly like the sort of thing the great convention was designed to prevent, a nuclear weapon used during/in an attack on another house.

Conceded. Harkonnen would be the logical target.

I have to put up a different argument, that I disagree a little with Painrack; I don't feel the Houses are as hair-triggered as he does. I feel that except in circumstances of great and imminent danger, they likely investigate first, reach a conclusion, and then nuke. Otherwise it would be just too simple for someone to frame an attacker by a laser-shield explosion. Also, even a known laser-field explosion (used as deliberate WMD) would have to attract retaliation, else someone would just invite half a dozen independant witnesses as their remote controlled laser shot the House Shields.
One big problem is we have no actual incidents of nuclear responses, so we don't really know what would trigger it.

Also on your comment about owned land unless there is something squirrely happening the Atreides still own/rule caladan. When the Harkonnens were originaly granted the arrakis fiefdom by the emperor (not the second time when they attacked the Atreides) they didn't have to give up Geidi Prime or any other world. Nor has it been said anywhere that when the emperor grants a fiefdom (such as when the emperor granted the atreides arrakis) that they must give up control of a world they already possess.

iirc, it was part of the deal for Atreides getting Arrakis that they gave up Caladan as a swap.

Very true, and if attacked by the Star Wars Universe, the God Emperor will have access to plentiful very cheap pseudo-atomics. I don't expect it to help much.

Huh? What the heck are you talking about? Star Wars who the hell said anything about star wars? This is Dune vs 40k not Dune vs SW.

Oh yeah. Oops

[Ghost Rider]

If anyone wants an example of atomic usage and house reaction? It's in Dune, when Paul uses atomics on the shield wall.

Shaddam explicitly tells Paul that he violated the treaty and they would bomb him into dust, wherein he retorts that the Houses would debate the fine point of the fact he used them against the Shield Wall and people who got caught were just side effects.

While it does involve Arrakis, it is a primary canon example that yes, the treaty does hold but it is not this only thin measure that prevents everyone from going apeshit on each other or whatever bullshit is being paraded.

[SapphireFox]

iirc, it was part of the deal for Atreides getting Arrakis that they gave up Caladan as a swap

Further research indicates that you are likely right. Damn, they have got a wiki for everything these days. http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
I will have to reread my copy of Dune just to be certain. (Its been years since I read read it anyways)

Ahh, House Corrino is a book. That explains my not remembering the attack. I regard all post Frank Herbert Dune as fan fiction, and from accounts not very good either.

Who's accounts have you been listening to? I have the book and quite frankly it is not as bad as you and PainRack claim. This is coming someone who has read both the original Frank Herbert works first and then picked up the House prequel trilogy later. I will however list the Butlerian Jihad trilogy as being generally not worth the effort.
[rant] It is best if you actually read it for your self and form your own opinion on the matter rather than just repeating another's.[/rant]

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't have the source in front of me, but IIRC, the Aspect was used to explain Thor oratory and prescience powers, as well as his ability to transit or even smooth warpspace.

Similarly, I'm not making an argument based entirely on author intent. I'm just pointing out that while the author intent may be inclined towards a certain viewpoint, the actual evidence is left ambiguous.

You're not going to prove a point either way by looking at the REign of Blood era stuff anyhow, but it is well within a Chaos God's ability to create or stimulate warp storms. (Eye of Terror Guide by Andy Hoare mentions Erebus triggering them by the sacrifice of mere millions, Abbadon caused the creation of the Warp Storm in the Gothic War. We dont know the exact mechanisms but it works. Not that it maters much since in that context its purely a "in warp only" phenomenon and it goes both ways (they can make the path clearer/safer or they can make it more difficult. So can the Emperor, and he could do that even BEFORE getting on the Throne according to HH Collected Visions.)

The storms in question lasted decades.

Though the rest of the galaxy was still embroiled in the raging tempests that had engulfed the Imperium for many hundreds of years, the massive fleet of the Confederaiton of Light passed through the warp without hindrance.

I saw no mention of decades, and the warp storms were one continuous event predating the Reign of Blood.

Furthermore, you appear to be ignoring the context. The standard boilerplate is that the Galactic Empire is substantially unstable because the battle of Endor resulted in its "collapse" whereas the Imperium has survived millenia and countless crisis without collapsing. That's misleading.

If Palpatine is removed from the picture yes, the Empire would collapse. But then again fi you remove the GEoM so would the Imperium. The comparison of the respective government and territorial durability is more complicated than that.

The Age of Apotasy is an example where a rebellion did result in its upheaval. The sole difference is that unlike the New Republic, the name remained the same.

That's hardly an unusual or telling event. The Imperium has had an entire segmentum declare rebellion before (Nova Terra Interregnum lasting some 9 centuries). Hell having whole planets and sectors go rogue or try to isn't exactly an unusual occurance. The main thrust of that being that its an experience that SW (the GE or the republic in its various incarnations) do not have experience with. Whenever a rebellion tneds to crop up it either gets resolved before becoming an ongoing crisis or it ends up getting messy somehow because its part of some far reaching plot of galactic domination.

In this case, the scale of the "rebellion" in the Imperium is significantly SMALLER.

Er what, are you going on about that 5 million "army" bit? We dont know actually how big they got, or the actual scope of the forces involved in the final battle against Vandire. I'd also point out that technically both Astartes and AdMech are effectively sovereign from the Imperium and have the capability and habit of doing whatever the fuck they want.

You DID note that my paragraph contained the "a sparser reading suggests that the initial landing were forced by the TechGuards and Marines...... only".

A "sparser reading?" That's ALL that was indicated. The only source I have been made aware of indicating more was the "Daenyathos" novel by WR and it mentions IG units fighting the Frateris. So basically you have AStartes, IG units (probably commanded by the former or the AdMech) and the AdMech (which according to wR includes Titans) fighting against Frateris and the Daughters, the latter of which are not THAT numerous.

Again, I dont know what the fuck you are reading, but you seem to extraploate from it far more than I do.

And again, you utterly ignored the context in which fans have made arguments against the Galactic Civil war such as the Battle of Endor and etc.

Why the fuck should I care about what other fans have argued? What does that have to do with me and what I am saying?

[Connor MacLeod]

Edit here sice I cant edit it in now: I got reminded by WR that according to "Pawns of Chaos" one of the earlier novels that Warp Storms are technically Daemons (or can be created by - a daemon gets summoned, absorbs alot of death/life energy from warfare, and ends up creating a massive warp storm to suck in/destroy an answering Imperial task group) - its a rather fundamental plotline to the novel itself.