Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Broomstick wrote:Oh, in case anyone thought I was kidding - Cheney really doesn't have a pulse anymore. The Left Ventricular Assist Device or LVAD that was implanted in him has taken over most of the pumping action of his heart and provides a continuous flow rather than the pulsing action of a natural heart. So, um, yeah, that's a little creepy.
Grotesque, somehow.

Remember that scene in Bram Stoker's Dracula when Gary Oldman's Dracula takes the hand of Winona Ryder's Mina, puts it to his chest and says, "There is no life in this body."

That's the mental image I got when I read what you wrote about Captain No-Pulse.

And somehow, that Dracula is a far more sympathetic individual. :P
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Dalton »

Back on topic, people. If you want to talk about Cheney, start a new thread.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Broomstick »

Some pictures of the actual crash site:

ImageImage

Flew into the side of the mountain, it looks like, but a glancing blow. That's why there were survivors - probably the fatalities were all sitting towards the front and took the brunt of the impact, with the people in the tail surviving. I dunno, maybe the pilot saw the ground and tried to pull up, resulting in a less-than-direct hit. But really, we don't know. Expect the final NTSB report in about a year.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Channel72 »

Alyeska wrote:Yeah, I don't get happy when people die unless they were truly terrible. You set your sights pretty F*cking low if your happy Stevens died.
It's easy to say that any death is a terrible tragedy, but you have to ask:

1) Are you emotionally invested in Ted Stevens as a person?
2) Is the world a better place without him?

The answer to (1) is obviously no, since nobody on this web-board knew him personally. And the answer to (2) is yes, because he was a relatively powerful man who used his influence to enact harmful policies, not to mention the corruption.

So why exactly are you sad he died? You might be uncomfortable celebrating his death, but I don't think it's morally warped to admit that the guy was an asshole and the world is a better place without him. Does someone really have to practice Hitler-level villainy before you'll admit that his death is a net gain?
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Broomstick »

Channel72 wrote:The answer to (1) is obviously no, since nobody on this web-board knew him personally.
Perhaps not - but I almost did meet Stevens. I was invited to an afternoon sailing trip by someone who had also invited Stevens, who he had known for years. As it happens, I did not join the the party that day, but if I had, I would have known him, albeit not well. (Whether or not I would have liked, disliked, or been indifferent to him is another matter).

I've actually met a few senators over my lifetime (one of whom went on to be our current president). Wouldn't say I knew any of them well, but yes, I did know them as people and not just pictures on the TV. Be a little more wary of making such assumptions, as it is not beyond the bounds of reason that someone on this board does know someone of influence and prestige.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens may have died in a plane c

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Flagg wrote:He's going to hell via a series of tubes.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens may have died in a plane c

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Ryan Thunder wrote:
Flagg wrote:He's going to hell via a series of tubes.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens may have died in a plane c

Post by Vendetta »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Granted that Dick Cheney no longer has a pulse yet still breathes and speaks - even he will perish (eventually).
Incidentally, Cheney was just recently released from the hospital in the last few days, after having his 3967th heart surgery. Give or take.

How does he survive? :P If not for my disbelief in all things supernatural, I'd swear he made a pact with some demonic being in exchange for whatever soul he may once have had.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Alyeska »

I locked Senator Stevens out of the bathroom once. Yes, I actually did that.

I frequented a restaurant that was one of his favorites. He was very good friends with the owner of the restaurant. The restaurant owner ended up testifying at his trial. Anyway, I was a kid. I had to use the bathroom. It was a stall/urinal configuration with no divider. I got in and locked the door. Shortly after that someone was banging on the door because they wanted in. After I got out I saw an older man standing at the door waiting. 15 minutes later my parents point him out to me when they spot him at his table.

This was at the Double Musky Inn. Best cajun food on the west coast.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Darth Yan »

was he pissed? did he press charges?
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Broomstick »

More on the crash, with some commentary, from the New York Times
JUNEAU, Alaska (AP) — The plane that crashed into an Alaskan mountainside and killed former Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska and four others was equipped with an alert system that warned pilots of dangerous terrain.

But the National Transportation Safety Board chairwoman, Deborah Hersman, said it was not known whether the system was working.
There is more than one terrain avoidance system, and without further information I can have no additional comment. But yes, whether or not it was working is an interesting question. I'd be curious if survivors had heard a warning sound of some sort or not. It is possible that such a sound, while audible to the pilot and those up front, may not have been audible to those in the back of the airplane. The same would apply to any visual warning that may have been used. If the survivors were all in the rear of the airplane it might have alerted but they might also have been unaware of it.
The plane, which crashed on Monday, was also equipped with an emergency locator transmitter, Ms. Hersman said at a news conference in Anchorage on Friday. When properly registered, it issues a distress signal to a control center via satellite and provides registration information. Ms. Hersman said it was unclear why that signal did not activate.
This is a badly written paragraph and clearing the reporter did not fully understand the information related. The Emergency Locator Transmitter or ELT does not need to be "registered". It does need to be properly set. These are checked on a regular basis and mandatory on all airplanes having more than one seat (even single seaters normally have them, even if not required). They are activated by a either an impact greater than a set number of g's, or by manually flipping a switch. If the impact was under the required threshold it would not go off. That is why there is a manual switch, so that if you have a "gentle" crash survivors can manually activate it to summon help. It may be none of the survivors knew this, or knew how to activate it. Give the shallow angle of impact, it may simply be that the impact was not sufficient to trigger it and no one left alive knew how to use it. Also, ELT's are most commonly located in the tail of the airplane (that being the area most likely to survive) and as one can see from the picture the front of the airplane absorbed a lot of the impact. Again, this may have reduced the g's forces on the ELT to less than the triggering amount.
The five victims died from blunt-force trauma, said Dr. Katherine Raven, the state medical examiner. Four people survived, and investigators interviewed two of them on Friday.

Ms. Hersman told reporters that one of the survivors described the crash by saying, “They were flying along, and they just stopped flying.”

The same survivor said he did not notice any changes in the plane’s pitch or hear any unusual engine sounds in the moments before the plane went down, about 20 miles north of Dillingham in southwest Alaska.
This is starting to sound like CFIT or "controlled flight into terrain". The visibility at time of take off was reported as 3 miles (5 km) under an overcast at 2,000 feet (600 m). These are marginal conditions for visual flight rules or VFR, especially in mountainous areas where the terrain abruptly changes in altitude. Which is the sort of area they were in. Now, the pilot was instrument rated, and I'm sure the airplane in question had at least the minimal instrument required for flight in instrument meteorological conditions or IFR. HOWEVER - Alaska is in many ways remote and wild. The navigational beacons and other instruments required for safe IFR flights are few and far between. Hence, nearly all bush flying (and this was flying in the bush) is done under VFR even if the pilot is IFR trained and the airplane is IFR equipped for the simple reason that the ground-based components necessary are missing. Yes, GPS can get around this - IF the airplane has a GPS system rated for IFR (actually, pretty common these days) and IF they can pick up enough GPS satellites for reliable information. That sort of satellite coverage doesn't always happen in Alaska, and weather and terrain that blocks signals can also be a factor. I don't think the weather was that bad (it has to be REALLY horrific weather) but the terrain might have particularly if the satellites available were all near the horizon relative to the airplane.

So... did they file a flight plan? If they filed one, that tells us if they had planned to fly IFR or VFR (which was just barely legal under those conditions, but most pilots would consider such conditions hazardous to fly VFR even on flat terrain where I live, much less in the mountains). If they did not file a flight plan (perfectly legal in the US under those conditions) then they were flying VFR.

If they were flying VFR it is entirely possible that they simply didn't see the mountainside until it was too late to avoid it. Which is why VFR flight in marginal conditions in the mountains is considered hazardous, even if it is legal.
Ms. Hersman did not identify the survivors who spoke.

The survivors are Sean O’Keefe, a former National Aeronautics and Space Administration chief; his son, Kevin; a lobbyist, James Morhard; and William Phillips Jr., 13.

An Anchorage hospital on Friday upgraded the condition of Mr. O’Keefe from critical to serious. Kevin O’Keefe and Mr. Morhard were in fair condition, and Mr. Phillips was in good condition.

Besides Mr. Stevens, the victims were Theron Smith, the pilot; Dana Tindall, an executive of General Communications Inc.; Mr. Tindall’s 16-year-old daughter, Corey; and William Phillips Sr., who had worked with Mr. Stevens in Washington.

One survivor said the group decided over lunch at a lodge owned by General Communications to head to a fishing camp, Ms. Hersman said, a trip that had been put off in the morning because of poor weather.
Pity they didn't put it off still longer.
The survivor said conditions had improved by the afternoon. He said he fell asleep about 10 to 15 minutes into the flight and woke up after the crash, Ms. Hersman said.

David Morris, a spokesman for General Communications, said about 13 people originally arrived at the lodge on Aug. 7 for what was “primarily a Stevens trip.”

Mr. Smith was a temporary replacement for the regular pilot, who had unexpectedly quit, Mr. Morris said. Mr. Smith was a longtime pilot for Alaska Airlines, retiring in 2007 after 28 years, and was qualified to fly the float plane and to fly in that part of the country, Mr. Morris said.

Ms. Hersman said Mr. Smith was estimated to have had 10 hours of air time in the float plane that crashed and 35 hours in the same type of plane. He had thousands of hours in both single- and dual-engine amphibious aircraft.
While that's not a lot of hours for a particular type of airplane it is sufficient to be considered competent to fly an Otter. Of more importance was the "thousands of hour in both single and dual engine amphibious aircraft" as well as his professional experience. This was a very experience, and presumably skilled, pilot who crashed.
Ms. Hersman said Mr. Smith did not request a weather briefing before departure. However, investigators have been told there was Internet service at the camp, and he may have checked conditions that way.
OK, let me mention something about weather briefings. During the Bush years, the weather briefing stations were consolidated and outsourced to a private company, and many closed in the name of efficiency. It turned what used to be either a direct line to trained human meteorologist familiar with your general region, or maybe a 2-3 minute on hold time into a 20-30 minute wait on hold to a harried briefer who was under pressure to get you off the phone quickly who might never have been in your area, is thousands of kilometers away, and basically not able to provide the prior in-depth service available from the government briefers. In other words, this was a case where the government WAS doing it right and the conservitards fucked it up in order to save some pennies, because saving money is more important than safety Not that I'm bitter or anything.... Anyhow. The upshot is that with more and more weather information available on-line, and frequently as good as what the briefers are looking at, and available instantly at a keyboard, more and more pilots are opting to get their own weather information and not use the briefers (well, yeah, I guess that does save money for someone). Problem is, in the old days, if you were about to do something dumb (like VFR flight in low visibility in the mountains) the briefers would say "VFR flight not advised" or even "Are you sure you want to do that?" And we know, because these conservations are monitored, that there were times pilots said "Right, that's not a good idea, I'm staying on the ground" (In fact, I've said that a couple times when talking to weather briefers.) With the internet, there's no human standing there to say "Hey, re-think this a minute". Also, back when almost all pilots used human weather briefer we could have some idea of what a pilot was or wasn't told before an accident - we can't know that anymore. We can't even know if they checked the weather.

So - we know the pilot in this case did not call Flight Service to talk to a human weather briefer. We know nothing else about what he might or might not have checked prior to flight.

I will also note that it is almost a certainty that the airplane contained no form of black box, and they are not normally installed on that size of airplane.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Hey Broomstick, was there a vote on that privatization, and do you have the exact name of the agency, I want to look something up. Namely whether Stevens voted in favor of it.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Broomstick »

The decision to privatize Flight Service occurred during the first Bush Administration, the vote was 2004 or maybe even 2003. The various Congressional aviation sub-committees were largely for it, if I recall, but I don't know if Stevens was on one or if so how he voted. The contract was awarded to Lockheed Martin. The controlling agency is the Federal Aviation Administration or FAA.

Just to illustrate - the number of Flight Service stations dropped from 200 to a mere 18 in less than 10 years. The plan is to reduce them THREE. That's THREE, to cover everything from Florida to Hawaii to Alaska.

Some further insights into this privatization mess:

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

And the best one of all - read this if not any of the others


It would be ironic if Stevens voted for privatization of Flight Service and it led to his death. IF that is true, as an Alaskan pilot he should have known better!
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Alyeska »

My mom and dad are former Air Traffic Controllers. Mom got fired by Reagan while dad remained employed and retired in 1994. They both watched the system get dismantled by Bush JR and it pisses them off severely. Several fatal airport accidents are directly attributed to cuts on ATC. Understaffed towers incapable of handling the traffic and over worked controllers near the breaking point who literally miss things because its more work than a single person can take (often some towers go for long stretches with a single controller, and guess what happens when he has to use the bathroom).
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Aaron »

Alyeska wrote:My mom and dad are former Air Traffic Controllers. Mom got fired by Reagan while dad remained employed and retired in 1994. They both watched the system get dismantled by Bush JR and it pisses them off severely. Several fatal airport accidents are directly attributed to cuts on ATC. Understaffed towers incapable of handling the traffic and over worked controllers near the breaking point who literally miss things because its more work than a single person can take (often some towers go for long stretches with a single controller, and guess what happens when he has to use the bathroom).
Piss jug? Or the tower shuts down?
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Alyeska »

Aaron wrote:
Alyeska wrote:My mom and dad are former Air Traffic Controllers. Mom got fired by Reagan while dad remained employed and retired in 1994. They both watched the system get dismantled by Bush JR and it pisses them off severely. Several fatal airport accidents are directly attributed to cuts on ATC. Understaffed towers incapable of handling the traffic and over worked controllers near the breaking point who literally miss things because its more work than a single person can take (often some towers go for long stretches with a single controller, and guess what happens when he has to use the bathroom).
Piss jug? Or the tower shuts down?
Both.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Broomstick »

Alyeska wrote:
Aaron wrote:
Alyeska wrote:My mom and dad are former Air Traffic Controllers. Mom got fired by Reagan while dad remained employed and retired in 1994. They both watched the system get dismantled by Bush JR and it pisses them off severely. Several fatal airport accidents are directly attributed to cuts on ATC. Understaffed towers incapable of handling the traffic and over worked controllers near the breaking point who literally miss things because its more work than a single person can take (often some towers go for long stretches with a single controller, and guess what happens when he has to use the bathroom).
Piss jug? Or the tower shuts down?
Both.
Yeah- as a pilot I've had the dubious please of entering airport airspace, attempting to contact the tower, hearing nothing for several minutes, then have another pilot who is also in the vicinity break in with "ATC is probably in the bathroom".

Overnight, single-person towers have had the single controller fall asleep. That's FAR less likely to happen with two people, and if it does, well, the awake one shakes the sleeping one back awake again. Now... there is only silence from the tower. Sometimes for hours. Yes, we pilots have procedures to deal with these situations and thank Og they do work, but for crying out loud these things shouldn't be happening!
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

It would be ironic if Stevens voted for privatization of Flight Service and it led to his death. IF that is true, as an Alaskan pilot he should have known better!
Well... the air transport sector did own him to the tune of 160 grand in the 2003-2004 fiscal year...
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by That NOS Guy »

Broomstick wrote: Overnight, single-person towers have had the single controller fall asleep. That's FAR less likely to happen with two people, and if it does, well, the awake one shakes the sleeping one back awake again. Now... there is only silence from the tower. Sometimes for hours. Yes, we pilots have procedures to deal with these situations and thank Og they do work, but for crying out loud these things shouldn't be happening!
I do ramp work at a Philadelphia-area airport, and our tower shuts down at 2300. Normally flights after 11 are pretty few and far between, but we're also in the middle of a major metro area and I'd really hate to think about things going wrong over a bunch of rowhomes because there's no ATC to direct traffic.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Uraniun235 »

The insane thing is that, as understaffed as it is, people who actually want to be ATCs can't find work.
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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Broomstick »

That NOS Guy wrote:
Broomstick wrote: Overnight, single-person towers have had the single controller fall asleep. That's FAR less likely to happen with two people, and if it does, well, the awake one shakes the sleeping one back awake again. Now... there is only silence from the tower. Sometimes for hours. Yes, we pilots have procedures to deal with these situations and thank Og they do work, but for crying out loud these things shouldn't be happening!
I do ramp work at a Philadelphia-area airport, and our tower shuts down at 2300. Normally flights after 11 are pretty few and far between, but we're also in the middle of a major metro area and I'd really hate to think about things going wrong over a bunch of rowhomes because there's no ATC to direct traffic.
Don't know about your airport, but around here Gary Regional, whose tower (if I recall correctly) shuts down around 2200 still has the tower frequency monitored by someone with emergency services. If a pilot declares an emergency on the radio after the tower shuts down that call WILL be heard and emergency services will deal with it. They also monitor the emergency frequency for the same reason, as do active towers, so if the call is made on that frequency LOTS of people will hear it.

The problem is when there is supposed to be an ATC on duty, and said person has, for example, fallen asleep. In that case, there may not be anyone else monitoring the frequency

Another way the consolidated flight service cuts down on safety - I spoke with a pilot who used to fly cargo at night for a living out of small fields. These fields are largely abandoned after dark, and often in remote areas. He could call, Flight Service and file a flight plan just before take off. Now, when you do that, you're supposed to call Flight Service shortly after take off to activate your flight plan... though not everyone does so, particularly if it's daytime and a VFR flight. However, this guy, when he filed, would say "If I don't contact you again within 15 minutes call for help - if I don't call you back I've had an accident or something else has gone horribly wrong." With the old style Flight Service such a request was not a problem, especially not at night. With the new Flight Service - no way in hell you're getting that extra measure of safety. You crash in a field just after take off now you'll stay there until somebody else - or the buzzards - happen to notice the wreck.
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If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: Breaking: Ex-Sen. Ted Stevens has died in a plane crash

Post by Losonti Tokash »

Uraniun235 wrote:The insane thing is that, as understaffed as it is, people who actually want to be ATCs can't find work.
It's like this with everything. Always hear about how there's massive shortages of EMTs and nurses, but at my part-time job I work with a woman who's been a nurse for 20 years, and it's the 3rd job she has right now because she can't actually get a nursing position. And it took me just over a year to finally get a job doing medical transport.
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