The Decline of Baen Books as a Respectable SF Publisher

[MKSheppard]

Baen have had a strong right-wing contigent since well before Jim Baen's death - allegedly, that was the reason Mercedes Lackey left.

Even that was under somewhat relative control -- S.M. Stirling left Baen after they rewrote the ending to the final Draka book to have the good guys win (For once).

It comes down to the fact that the people who tend to write and read military SF tend to lean right. IOW; they lean more to Heinlein than to Flint; because in the end, it's all about seeing people blown up in creative ways in the FAR FUTURE OF HUMANITY.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate.

As long as they're given good editorial oversight; it works; but when they become the next big hit like with Weber and Mary Sue Harrington; or have the boss' ear (Ringo), suggestions that would improve the book get circular filed as the author's VISION is what it is at.

This also has affected other people; not just MilSF/Baen/RightLeaningAuthors; just look at the increasingly incoherent Dune series by Frank Herbert.

Hundreds of thousands? That was just the warmup...The Weapon ends with a series of strikes which kill six billion people on Earth.

This of course means that Earth goes all Curtis LeMay on Freehold with Strategic Space Command. But that would be in a sane universe, not in the crack-infested head of Michael Z Williamson.

[Vehrec]

It is telling, that one of the non-scifi authors for Baen is Chuck Asay. Granted, he only has one book with his name on it. Writing for the Tea Party contingent. I know this doesn't mean that they necessarily support this kind of thinking, but really, what is a person supposed to think in this situation? And why are they publishing something so far outside their normal fare?

[thegreatpl]

*opens mouth to defend baen, then reads what has been said, closes mouth to rethink*

Personally, I have pretty much only read Baen sci-fi this last half-decade or so. Probably because their books are so recognizable in design. Which I actually like and prefer to the boring covers most books have. That said, my reading rate has been getting slower these last few years.

I am a big fan of David Weber. I think i have read every book he has published. I dont think that Harrington is a Mary sue myself. I feel she is a believable character.

On John Ringo, he is probably one of the most interesting of authors i have read. I cannot really stand his legacy of the Allendata series; it is too hard hitting for me. Some people must like it, since he still pumps them out. I managed to read through the first 4 or so books, but then the complete despair of the situation got to me, and i stopped reading. I reread it once or twice, but never completely all the way through.

On the flip side, I liked the Prince Roger series, although it has been a while since i read them, and his Council series i eagerly await the next installment, and his Troy Rising Trilogy, which so far has only one book, is among my favorite books (for those of you who have not read it, it is essentially Schlock Mercenary in style).

I haven't really read any of his other series, although I did read his bolo book which i admit i found it unmemorable, but not bad.

David Drake i have not gotten round to reading most of his books. Eric Flint i am still trying to work out which order i should read his 1632 series. The Bolo series i have almost every book they published in it (fucking rare book is the only one i havent). And i have gotten a few books from Steve White recently.

Kratman i have not actually read through any of his stuff, apart from one book i got in the legacy of the allendata series. Neither have i read anything from Williamson. I actually have read very few of their other authors (they have so many on their roster) but i have read a few i picked up every so often.

I have to say though, who cares if they through in a few political views? As long as the story is good and interesting, someone will read it.

And someone obviously reads those kinds of books, otherwise they wouldnt be publishing them. My personal view is that they still publish good sci-fi, but i must admit a lot of the books i see on the shelfs i put down after reading the blurb; just not to my tastes.

[Samuel]

Eric Flint i am still trying to work out which order i should read his 1632 series.

Er, by date published? That said, isn't the series a bit... off, especially its backround?

I have to say though, who cares if they through in a few political views? As long as the story is good and interesting, someone will read it.

Because it tends to dominate the story.

[Mr Bean]

Eric Flint i am still trying to work out which order i should read his 1632 series.

Er, by date published? That said, isn't the series a bit... off, especially its backround?

Initially yes you can read 1632 by letter year but each book after 1633 has gotten more confusing because you have 1634 books which only cover a six month time frame or a 1634 that only covers December of 1634.

As for the read order I sent you a PM with said read order, no need to take up space here.

[MKSheppard]

I dont think that Harrington is a Mary sue myself. I feel she is a believable character.

She was always a Mary Sue from Book one; when the commander of the Havenite Q-ship had Honor's ship at his mercy and instead of just torpedoeing the wreck from long range, and then blowing up the wreckage and escape pods into little itty bitty pieces closed in to save money on missile magazine expenditure.

On John Ringo, he is probably one of the most interesting of authors i have read. I cannot really stand his legacy of the Allendata series; it is too hard hitting for me. Some people must like it, since he still pumps them out. I managed to read through the first 4 or so books, but then the complete despair of the situation got to me, and i stopped reading. I reread it once or twice, but never completely all the way through.

Are you deliberately trolling or just stupid?

In any sane or credible universe, the Posleen would have been destroyed within about a couple months following Posleen-fall as the world's militaries; being given unlimited funding and blank checks simply expended firepower on a scale not seen since World War II; dropping thousands of tons of HE onto the Posleen from every conceivable artillery system, from Davy Crocketts to MRLS spills.

Remember; Posleen ADA only stops POWERED flight projectiles; So I just use artillery shells or fast-burning bombardment rockets. This is something that would have been noted in the intial enemy brief the various militaries of the world received in 2000ish on the Posleen.

Meanwhile, the US Army/Russian Army/German Army/British Army/Chinese Army move in on the shocked remnants in tanks that have had slabs of Indowy armor welded to their turrets and hulls; since producing simple slabs of armor steel should be a piece of cake for the Indowy; rather than trying to visualize a complex piece of power armor molecule by molecule....

Lets not forget that during the buildup to War; any possible Darheel saboteurs in the MIC would have been told to fuck off -- we have a PLAN which was drawn up in 1984, to mobilize the MIGHTY US ARMY to become an UNSTOPPABLE STEAMROLLER of mass produced draftees to fight the SOVIET UNION in CENTRAL FRONT EUROPE, given a conflict that drags on for a year but doesn't go nuclear. What's that? You want to change it? Sure; run it past the Joint Chiefs of Staff's planning Division.

Likewise; the Draft system would be a well oiled machine; since we've always been doing dry runs since the Draft ended in the 1970s. So all we need to do is for each draft board member to pull out "DRAFT 101, HOW TO BE A DRAFT BOARD MEMBER IN 12 E-Z STEPS" left over from 1984. How are the Darheel going to mess that up?

PS: The best whopper of them all is in When the Devil Dances:

October 12, 2008 Last Transmission: Red Army, Nizhny Novgorod.
October 21, 2008 Official Determination: No coherent field forces outside of North America.

But we have him saying in the same book:

On the other hand, Canada's supplies of pitchblende were plentiful and above the weather-line that the Posleen preferred.

[thegreatpl]

meh, like i said, i stopped reading that series after a time, although not because of plot reasons. And have rarely reread it. From what i remember, it was believable.

However, to counter you, i would like to refer to the comment you made about the LoTA being:

The LotA series can be best described as what Salvation War would’ve been if Stuart had been huffing gasoline while putting together the military mobilization planning aspect of it.

Sure, it is in fact what the Salvation War would have been if the Demons had invaded in WW2. Stuart has continually said that if the demons had invaded then, it would have been at least a close thing. He (or someone did) recently mentioned that if Satan had sent through more that 66 Legions, then the area around the Portal would have been overrun, making the war a closer thing. In fact, the main difference in the basic plot backgrounds is that in the Salvation War we are winning more easier than in LoTA, where we are barely, or not at all, winning.

Ok, now, let us think about what the Posleen actually are, Umpteen billion invading aliens with some advanced hardware but no real knowledge of how it works or how to apply it. There are more Posleen than there are humans by something like a factor of a hundred. Even if you have artillery dropping on them at a continuos rate, they can just soak it up until you run out of ammo.

Lets not forget that during the buildup to War; any possible Darheel saboteurs in the MIC would have been told to fuck off -- we have a PLAN which was drawn up in 1984, to mobilize the MIGHTY US ARMY to become an UNSTOPPABLE STEAMROLLER of mass produced draftees to fight the SOVIET UNION in CENTRAL FRONT EUROPE, given a conflict that drags on for a year but doesn't go nuclear. What's that? You want to change it? Sure; run it past the Joint Chiefs of Staff's planning Division.

You mean like the Russian Steamroller of WW1? I dont know much about it, but i remember reading that mobilization of Russian soldiers on such a massive scale that would over run german and Austrian positions! Which then failed to mobilize. Plan do not always work, and any plan that has mass mobilization is going to run into problems even before you get aliens messing around.

yeah... I am going to admit that is a big plothole.

oh, and as for Harrington being a Mary sue, since it is obvious you are not going to change your mind. Who fucking cares? As long as it is a well written mary sue which fits in well with the plot, and actually has some believable flaws, you can have them for all i care.

[Simon_Jester]

PS: The best whopper of them all is in When the Devil Dances:
October 12, 2008 Last Transmission: Red Army, Nizhny Novgorod.
October 21, 2008 Official Determination: No coherent field forces outside of North America.

But we have him saying in the same book:
On the other hand, Canada's supplies of pitchblende were plentiful and above the weather-line that the Posleen preferred.

That one was so shitty that even he retconned the timeline and had more survivor forces hanging on, as I recall.

And you know it's a dumb mistake when even John Ringo spots it.

oh, and as for Harrington being a Mary sue, since it is obvious you are not going to change your mind. Who fucking cares? As long as it is a well written mary sue which fits in well with the plot, and actually has some believable flaws, you can have them for all i care.

Name Honor Harrington's believable flaws that actually make some difference to the plot? In a book published after about 1995?

[Batman]

Thegreatpl, even massive FANS of the series agree Honor IS a Mary Sue. Honor has to fight a pistol duel. Hey. I DID mention that she's been into ancient firearms for decades right? No? Well she is. Learn to live with it. She's been damn near blown up a few hours before and has to swordfight a master of the art when she's been studying it for only a few months. Yeah, obvious instakill. And her being able to outsmart the Havenite invasion force a few hours AFTER that was totally not overboard.
I love the Honorverse but Honor HERSELF became pretty much intolerable around Flag in Exile. Im my personal and not necessarily unbiased opinion where she worked BEST was when she was in command of a single ship or small squadron (On Basilisk Station, The Honor of the Queen, and Honor among Enemies) WITHOUT having to do anything else.
The thing I loved about The Shadows of Saganami and Crown of Slaves was that they didn't HAVE Honor, and the Talbott Quadrant/Torch/Manpower situation looked a lot more interesting than the by then pretty much done to death Manticore/Haven war. I personally would have preferred 'War of Honor' resulting in Manticore being at war with the ANDERMANI with Haven sitting on the sidelines.

[Thanas]

It is a bit funny that the attempt to emulate Horatio Hornblower turned out to be a giant mary sue...when Hornblower is as flawed as the next guy, maybe more.

[thegreatpl]

meh, you're probably right about her being a mary sue. I don't read as much as i used to, so it has been a while since i read some of the books. And i havent actually come across enough Mary Sue's to be able to recognize them easily enough.

And she has become something of a drag in the last few books. Although your point about her being able to beat a master of swordfighting when she has been studying a few months is not entirely correct; the basis that was given at the time rings true to me; she knew how to kill, and went for it instantly, her opponent has been fighting practice battles, which probably means he was encouraged to slash. I still enjoy her though, at least the first time.

David Weber apparently agrees with you on the single ship role. He wanted to go back to that when he wrote TSoS and CoS.

[Batman]

Sorry, no. Burdette was among the top ten swordsmen on Grayson while Honor was a talented amateur with considerable injuries who was essentially running on adrenaline. This isn't Batman comics.

[Simon_Jester]

meh, you're probably right about her being a mary sue. I don't read as much as i used to, so it has been a while since i read some of the books. And i havent actually come across enough Mary Sue's to be able to recognize them easily enough.

And she has become something of a drag in the last few books. Although your point about her being able to beat a master of swordfighting when she has been studying a few months is not entirely correct; the basis that was given at the time rings true to me; she knew how to kill, and went for it instantly, her opponent has been fighting practice battles, which probably means he was encouraged to slash.

You do realize that this makes almost no sense from the point of view of actual fighting, right? I mean, if her opponent was trained in some school of swordfighting where everything was just a stylized sport (like modern fencing), that would be sort of sane.

But Grayson swordfighting isn't like that, so it really does not make sense.

[MKSheppard]

Sure, it is in fact what the Salvation War would have been if the Demons had invaded in WW2.

Let's see; World War II; everyone has a massive industrial base at home all tooled up to produce massive quantities of ammunition -- in TSW; the West was basically totally reliant on Chinese ammunition once they burned through a lot of their existing ammo stocks; due to the death of heavy manufacturing etc throughout the West.

Also; a lot more things are just more available in quantity; from tanks to aircraft. Sure; they're not as advanced as in TSW; but Angels/Demons aren't so strong that they can't be handled by WWII tank guns; and we have plenty of aircraft which can tote HVARs and cannon to deal with airborne threats.

That's a great mental image by the way; sea-blue Hellcats and Corsairs salvoing HVARs into angels; while Helldivers and Avengers spray mustard gas into the battlefield to deal with low flying Harpies.

Artillery is also much more prevalent than today -- sure, today we have SP Guns, etc and much better fire coordination; but in WWII there was just a lot more available in terms of independent artillery battalions; Corps Artillery, Army Artillery, etc.

What makes it a closer-run thing is that we don't have the technical ability to open a portal to heaven or hell other than the Hellmouth in Iraq which was used by Satan to invade Earth; so we'd be taking hits from Aerial Volcanoes, etc with no way to send attackers to Heaven in retaliation.

We could probably gain portal capability by turning captured higher end demons/angels -- find them on the battlefield all shot up, save their lives, then addict them to increasingly stronger narcotics.

"Open that portal for us or you won't get your daily dose of Mr. Feelgood."

Heaven's a bit tricker; but I think in the end we strike a deal with Michael-Lan; help him overthrow Yah-Yah and install him as the new politico-militaro leader of the Angelic host. It's plausible in the WWII era; since this was the era of entire nationalities being tossed under the bus in the name of political expediency.

Another problem is that the Hellmouth opened up in a near perfect location for us in TSW -- right next to a big mean US Army that was all looking for an enemy. In WWII; it'll open in Iraq; which is pretty much bare of anything; so it means the Demons can probably overrun most of the middle east before being stopped in Palestine; and it will be a year or two before we can actually counter-invade and run a railroad to the hellmouth to invade Hell.

Human casualties would be much higher -- but this is in the middle of World War II; which killed 62-78 million; and humanity is a bit more inured to casualties at this point in time.

He (or someone did) recently mentioned that if Satan had sent through more that 66 Legions, then the area around the Portal would have been overrun, making the war a closer thing.

That just means we kill more demons on Earth than in Hell; since if the Middle East and it's oil supplies are in danger of being overrun by demons; we'll just nuke the demonic hoard.

Sure; we'd like to keep the nukes in reserve so as not to show our hand ahead of time; but...when we're faced with the loss of the ME oilfields, there would be serious thought given towards special weapons use; since without those oilfields, our economies would take a pretty big dent.

That leads me to an interesting alt-aside for TSW; the Demons bust loose into...1962 Earth.

MWHHHAHAHAHA. I'll do the 1960s GRAPHS for that one.

Ok, now, let us think about what the Posleen actually are, Umpteen billion invading aliens with some advanced hardware but no real knowledge of how it works or how to apply it. There are more Posleen than there are humans by something like a factor of a hundred. Even if you have artillery dropping on them at a continuos rate, they can just soak it up until you run out of ammo.

Actually, I have; you ignorant fuckwit.

Your typical US Army division consists of 8-11 Manuver battalions, and 3-4 Field Arty battalions, plus support units.

Now, if we replace all the Field Artillery battalions in that unit with MRLS Battalions....

A single MRLS Battalion has 29 M270 launchers; and so our division would have 87 to 116 MRLS launchers. Each launcher can carry 12 MRLS rounds. That's between 1,044 to 1,392 MRLS rockets I have ready to fire at a minute's notice in each division.

Assuming 50% of the rockets from a single "spill" are intercepted, we still have between 500 and 696 MRLS rockets impacting on the target zone(s).

Let us look at the effects of this.

The M77 submunition used in the MRLS system is a shaped charge submunition which can penetrate up to 100 mm of RHA.
The steel casing of the M77 also produces fragments which kill or wound to a radius of 4m from detonation.

A total spill of all 12 rockets in a MRLS launcher will pretty much wipe out a grid square (1000m x 1000m).

Looking at a map of Virginia...Culpeper, Rapahannock, Fauqier, and Prince William Counties (Where the majority of the Posleen landings appear to have been in Gust Front) if you drew a circle around them, it would form a circle 70~ kilometers in diameter, with a total area of 219.8 square kilometers.

Basically; we can smash between 40 and 50 km2 of that in our first salvo; then follow that up with a second salvo 20 minutes later; and a final third salvo another 20 minutes later, covering about 120-150 km2.

At that point we'll have to stop, since the average US military unit carries one basic unit of fire on the weapons system itself; one back at the unit, and one at the resupply organization in the battalion/division level.

More missiles will get through posleen defenses on the second and third salvoes as we've suppressed the Posleen ADA network with our first salvo.

Sure, it sucks for the people stuck in the kill zone to die under a hail of bomblets...but remember in the Posleenverse, Ringo had the US Government convincing people to install bombs in their houses so they can commit suicide when the Posleen come a'knocking.

So we'll be able to blow four counties in Virginia off the fucking map with little if any political backlash.

Since this is the initial Posleen landings in 2004, well, the Posleen will have not evolved the following tactics:

1.) Breaking up their battalion equivalents for assaults with spacing in between.
2.) Using houses/structures as cover from artillery

So the slaughter by MRLS will be terrible; God King saucers are open topped; and are killed easily by .50 BMG rounds, so even if we discount the fact that the KE of a .50 BMG round and the HEAT effect of a M77 submunition are different kinds of energy, the God King Saucers are still going to have their inhabitants shredded, and they will have the crap knocked out of them; 100mm RHA penetration is nothing to sneeze at.

So once we've fired off our MRLS; we can then close in with the shattered remnants of the Posleen landing groups; and crush them with shock and fire effect from our Abrams/Bradley Battalions.

In fact, because infantry weapons such as rifles, etc are going to be of less use than normal against Posleen; we can actually cut the number of infantry in our Divisions to save manpower and use the extra space in Bradleys for more chaingun ammunition.

Let's not even get into the whole SHEVA wank.

In Book 2, when a salvo of 16" shells from a battleship accidentally hits a Posleen lander over Virginia and annihilates it, what does the USA do? They build 16" smoothbore guns using fixed cases with electro-thermal propellant, and a depleted uranium sabot with a 10 pound antimatter breaching charge....instead of producing 1 billion LOSAT armed Bradleys.

Let's do the math:

A 16"/50 HE Shell has a muzzle velocity of 820 m/s, and a weight of 862 kilograms; that equates out to 289.8 megajoules if my math is correct.

(NOTE: the rounds fired at Fredericksburg, VA were HE, not AP, they were firing for effect on massed formations of Posleen)

The 16" Smoothbore of a SheVa is stated to have the power of six 16" shells; so that's 1,738.8 megajoules. LOSAT is stated to have 40 megajoules of KE; so that means 43.5 LOSAT missiles equal the firepower of a SheVa.

Now, seeing as the original LOSAT was a stretched Bradley, carrying four LOSATs ready to fire, and 16 more in an autoloader, with average reload time for all four missiles 15 to 20 seconds.

What this means is that three platoons of LOSAT-Bradleys (12 in all) will be able to put 48 LOSATs onto target at best, or about 1,920 megajoules of energy; enough to cripple or knock about a Posleen Lander. And they will be vastly cheaper, easier to maintain, easier to replace than SheVas.

You mean like the Russian Steamroller of WW1?

The Russian steam roller of World War II you fucking moron; as well as the US Steamroller of World War II.

And any plan that has mass mobilization is going to run into problems even before you get aliens messing around.

Actually, that's why we have these fucking plans worked on for YEARS beforehand, by large military staffs who take into account basic mobilization needs.

For example; we want to outfit an army of 12 million men. Uniforms alone are a problem in mobilization. We can't simply buy uniforms from overseas due to US Law. So this means that we'll have to start up X number of clothes factories in the US by M-Day +30 (M for mobilization) in order to have the uniform output needed to equip our army as it becomes available on M-Day 300+ and onwards.

Repeat this throughout the civilian economy; e.g; how much gasoline can we release to the civilian economy? How much is needed to sustain the industrial output we need to have to outfit our mobilizing army?

A lot of things to be done. But we have FOUR FUCKING YEARS (2000-2004) before Posleen-fall. By contrast, in TSW; we had to convert to a war economy overnight to meet the demon/angel threat.

[PainRack]

The Russian steam roller of World War II you fucking moron; as well as the US Steamroller of World War II.

His point was still valid. The Germans in part did fear the Russian mobilisation of large numbers of men and etc, this consisted part of the tensions between the two powers before WW1 occurred.

Actually, that's why we have these fucking plans worked on for YEARS beforehand, by large military staffs who take into account basic mobilization needs.

Plans which are only practised rarely and only on paper.

Not to mention the US hamfisted attempts to update the draft plans based on the availability of rejuv and other new Darhel tech.
The scale and longevity of the fuck-up is unbelievable, but considering that the world was committing frontline troops to the Darhel war effort on top of mobilising their war economy, given the theme of "me first" and political/civilian resistance, not entirely unbelievable. A huge stretch given the scale of the screwup but.......

Or do we have to point to Katrina, Gulf oil spill or how the US took 2 years to fix their wartime administration in Iraq?

[The Yosemite Bear]

I still have my Lt. Leary books, but yeah things are getting pretty bad except for Drake and Weber...

[Simon_Jester]

I still have my Lt. Leary books, but yeah things are getting pretty bad except for Drake and Weber...

Except for Drake. Weber's not the writer he used to be; his flagship series has drifted too far from its roots and the man himself is suffering from horrible bloat in his latest books- you can skip whole paragraphs without missing anything sometimes.

Drake, though, is damn good in my opinion.

[d'Artagnan]

meh, you're probably right about her being a mary sue. I don't read as much as i used to, so it has been a while since i read some of the books. And i havent actually come across enough Mary Sue's to be able to recognize them easily enough.

And she has become something of a drag in the last few books. Although your point about her being able to beat a master of swordfighting when she has been studying a few months is not entirely correct; the basis that was given at the time rings true to me; she knew how to kill, and went for it instantly, her opponent has been fighting practice battles, which probably means he was encouraged to slash.

You do realize that this makes almost no sense from the point of view of actual fighting, right? I mean, if her opponent was trained in some school of swordfighting where everything was just a stylized sport (like modern fencing), that would be sort of sane.

But Grayson swordfighting isn't like that, so it really does not make sense.

Speaking as a fencer (sabre, specifically), even if Harrington's foe was only trained in sport fencing, he should have extensive experience in "point control"-making sure his blade lands exactly where he wants it. This would allow him to nick Honor's forearm, tear open her throat, or puncture any number of vital organs and plenty in between those two extremes. "Knowing how to kill" absolutely requires point control, not a Mary Sue's populistic triumph over the tradition-bound aristocracy

[eyl]

Speaking as a fencer (sabre, specifically), even if Harrington's foe was only trained in sport fencing, he should have extensive experience in "point control"-making sure his blade lands exactly where he wants it. This would allow him to nick Honor's forearm, tear open her throat, or puncture any number of vital organs and plenty in between those two extremes. "Knowing how to kill" absolutely requires point control, not a Mary Sue's populistic triumph over the tradition-bound aristocracy

Well, as I recall the scene, it came down to her moving faster than him rather than any fancy swordmanship - she hit him before he made his own attack.

The "knowing how to kill" thing refers, I think, to the fact (pointed out earlier in the novel) that Grayson fencers are trained to achieve any hit, rather than a lethal or disabling hit, because under the rules only the first touch counts regardless of where it lands.

[Thanas]

Yeah, but there is no way a trained fencer is not going to notice what the amateur is doing and block it in time. And this her hitting him before....right. Sounds about as believable as the nigerian wealth I am promised in emails.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Grayson dueling style is based on Japanese CINEMATIC samurai duels. Harrington spent literally ALL of her training learning one really good, unexpected move from a man who was one of (if not the) best sword master on the planet.

Its contrived, but that sort of 'cramming for the duel' has happened historically on earth, and resulted in the inferior duelist winning.

[eyl]

Yeah, but there is no way a trained fencer is not going to notice what the amateur is doing and block it in time. And this her hitting him before....right. Sounds about as believable as the nigerian wealth I am promised in emails.

Maybe, but it's not inconsistent. It's been state and shown throughout the series that HH's strength and reflexes are considerably suprior to a normal person's (the strength is the result of genetic enhancement, likely the reflexes are too). The duel was pretty much a showdown in style - both combatants were staring each other down prior to the single opening (and ending) stroke. As for noticing, Burdette did notice that Harrington was taking an unconventional stance - he just assumed it was useless (which is probably where the fact that he's used to fencing rules comes in, as presumably that stance won't allow you to hit your opponent without exposing youself first).

[Thanas]

Maybe, but it's not inconsistent. It's been state and shown throughout the series that HH's strength and reflexes are considerably suprior to a normal person's (the strength is the result of genetic enhancement, likely the reflexes are too). The duel was pretty much a showdown in style - both combatants were staring each other down prior to the single opening (and ending) stroke. As for noticing, Burdette did notice that Harrington was taking an unconventional stance - he just assumed it was useless (which is probably where the fact that he's used to fencing rules comes in, as presumably that stance won't allow you to hit your opponent without exposing youself first).

So why wasn't she dead then?

Sword fighting is just as much experience and years of training than raw potential. In fact, in my experience, training and experience beats raw abilities any time of the day.

And I also call BS to one of the best swordsmen not noticing a move that can be pulled off by a great amateur.

[Mr Bean]

So why wasn't she dead then?

Sword fighting is just as much experience and years of training than raw potential. In fact, in my experience, training and experience beats raw abilities any time of the day.

And I also call BS to one of the best swordsmen not noticing a move that can be pulled off by a great amateur.

What's the move business your getting into?
No the Burdette VS Harrington duel was one of the few things I cut Weber some slack on.

To repeat Harrington is a genetically modified Human designed for heavy Grav (1.3g I believe) worlds, she is stronger, faster and quicker than your average human and pays for it as she will slowly starve to death on a 2500 calories a day diet. She has height, weight and reach on Burdette plus speed. While she's been training with the sword in Flag in Exile for less than a year she did have the training of one best swordsmen on Grayson. She also has three decades worth of training in martial arts in general before she ever touched a sword. She is not unfamiliar with fighting. Burdette by contrast while a skilled and accredited swordsmen is not a killer. He has never draw his sword in anger and slew someone else. What he has done is training and fighting under rules similar to fencing for dozens of years. IE first touch wins a point both step back. Her trainer even notes this while training her earlier in the book. She knows how to fight and focuses on killing the enemy. Something that leaves her at a disadvantage in formal Greyson championship duels in which the fight stops once you get a touch and you back off to fight again. Something he exploits against her by leaving himself open to a lethal strike but being able to bounce swordpoint off leg or arm before she can complete her strike. He notes (In foreshadowing terms) that had that been an actual fight she would be wounded and he dead with her sword in his collarbone. But it's Grayson rules so point him big loser her.

The fight is presented as such as Burdette squaring off like this is another duel while Harrington is looking to kill him. She waits on his attack and the instant before he strikes she steps inside and cuts him half.

The Mary sue parts of this are of course the fact she happens to be injured, she does not get even a scratch in return and of course lopping his head off on her return cut, something which is damn hard to due in real life without a heavy axe.

[Falkenhayn]

The fight is presented as such as Burdette squaring off like this is another duel while Harrington is looking to kill him. She waits on his attack and the instant before he strikes she steps inside and cuts him half.

Assuming Webber knows his swords, the Honor saw Burdette's hands tighten, then stepped into measure and delivered a rising cut with the false edge that opened his torso. Making Burdette such a chump he hardly deserves mention, which is the point, as he is so far beneath "Honor" in all things his death is perfunctory. Her "Will to Kill" has precisely dick to do with it, other than to bloat the nauseating righteousness of all of her causes, and to demonstrate that she could have killed him with a golf club.