The Salvation War: Pantheocide Epilogue Up

[Saint_007]

how did joan kick off nationalism

Good question...

See, back in her day, France was kinda torn to bits between the kings and territorial barons. This weakness, among other factors, caused France to be a lot more vulnerable to English invasion than it should have been. The peasants tried to be loyal to both kings and lords, but it kinda caused more indecision than helped.

So along comes this peasant girl, who pledges fealty to nobody but the King, France, and God, and starts uniting the battered French armies into a fighting force. Because of her, people paid less heed to the feudal nobility than the symbol of the country itself - the King. To wit; Burgundy was a French duchy allied to the English, and other duchies were either gobbled up by the invaders or wasting their strength in intrigue amongst themselves. So when Joan came along and told them to shape up or ship out, the commoners listened, and started pledging allegiance to France as a single entity rather than to the separate houses of nobility.

So even when they gave Joan a kangaroo court and burned her at the stake, her legacy lived on. She was the first French commander to fight the English successfully in over 100 years, and she became a role model and martyr for the cause. After that, France was effectively a single political entity after it retook its territory from the English rapidly, and ever since then it became a great power in Europe. Trust me when I say that whatever happened, France was considered a major political or military power in Europe up until Napoleon pissed away its strength against Russia in 1812, the start of the long decline.

So for 400 years, from the 15th to the 19th centuries, France was strong because it believed in itself as a nation, not a collection of feudal lords. Hence, Nationalism.

Of course, I'm guessing others can explain it better than I did, but I did my best...

[Negativedark]

We now know the answer to the question "What Would Jesus Do?" He'd fake his death, show up, put you in your place, and get stoned with you.
Following the Angelic baby boom, I think a lucerative birth control market could open up. I mean my reaction to Ehlmas commenting on how it could affect Michaels nightclub was "And thus the condom was brought to heaven."
I wonder if we'll be seeing something for some of the other Pantheons by the end of this book. Sure they are supposed to not have anything to do with earth, and stay in their own dimensions, but since when has that ever stopped anyone from spying?

[Tiwaz]

The second-life "defections" I don't see as a huge issue. I could see the Military just saying your enlistment term isn't up yet. It isn't like the military allows people to leave in the middle of a deployment or major conflict. Even now they do "stop-loss" for military personeel. The personeel could argue that they are dead and no longer bound by the contract. The Military could argue that by electing to be paid again that the contract is still in-force and fully valid.

Are they electing to be paid again? Just paying them without asking approval would not have good chance to work out.

Not to mention that this would set a very bad example. How would you like to shovel up cash to pay for all those pensions forever? Voting rights? Trying to enforce treaties beyond death is going to hurt you more than benefit you, as everyone will start demanding their benefits.

Trying to force the hand of second lifers in such ham fisted way is a bad policy. It will only serve to increase the interest in Caesar's Rome and other new independent Hell societies.

[Deebles]

Just had a speculative thought: does the angels getting pregnant again also mean that second-life humans can start to get pregnant, or not? (The answer to this would also shed some light on the possibilities for the origins of angels etc. as speculated on earlier).

And on Joan of Arc: yeah, she definitely helped kick it off. Of course, it still took a few hundred years after she died for nationalism as a concept to really get going, and it looks like it'll be a long time yet before it gets itself gone.

[TimothyC]

Just had a speculative thought: does the angels getting pregnant again also mean that second-life humans can start to get pregnant, or not? (The answer to this would also shed some light on the possibilities for the origins of angels etc. as speculated on earlier).

And on Joan of Arc: yeah, she definitely helped kick it off. Of course, it still took a few hundred years after she died for nationalism as a concept to really get going, and it looks like it'll be a long time yet before it gets itself gone.

Angels are Universe Two beings.

Now this next part is important:

"Second Life Humans" (who are human in appearance and initial thought structure) are Universe Three Beings (at least that is how I'm reading it).

PS: If anyone wants a good laugh, Google Image Search "The Salvation War", then look at the 6th and 7th images that show up.

[Nick79]

You would be surpised at the number of people that hear voices.

You see, in the modern world, if you are otherwise sane and functional but hear voices, see visions, etc, you DO NOT TALK ABOUT THEM, ever. It results in pointless stays in locked wards, which are expensive and bad for one's eployment history.

[Brovane]

The second-life "defections" I don't see as a huge issue. I could see the Military just saying your enlistment term isn't up yet. It isn't like the military allows people to leave in the middle of a deployment or major conflict. Even now they do "stop-loss" for military personeel. The personeel could argue that they are dead and no longer bound by the contract. The Military could argue that by electing to be paid again that the contract is still in-force and fully valid.

Are they electing to be paid again? Just paying them without asking approval would not have good chance to work out.

Not to mention that this would set a very bad example. How would you like to shovel up cash to pay for all those pensions forever? Voting rights? Trying to enforce treaties beyond death is going to hurt you more than benefit you, as everyone will start demanding their benefits.

Trying to force the hand of second lifers in such ham fisted way is a bad policy. It will only serve to increase the interest in Caesar's Rome and other new independent Hell societies.

Lt Kim specifically asked to get paid again and specifically said that they where back in the army to the rest of the team. She actually delighted in the thought of causing the headaches in the Army payroll system by being asked to be paid after she was dead. This would tell me that she opted to continue her enlistment term. This I would argue would mean that her enlistment term is in full effect until her discharge date. The other's are not specifically mentioned as to if they elected to be paid again.

[impatrick4life]

Not to discourage you, Stuart, but it appears you've had haters from day one for this whole deal.
http://thecancermancan.livejournal.com/

...fucktards.

[Darth Yan]

we just ignore them. they are generally pathetic losers. CMC claims to be a marine.

[nobody_really]

Just had a speculative thought: does the angels getting pregnant again also mean that second-life humans can start to get pregnant, or not? (The answer to this would also shed some light on the possibilities for the origins of angels etc. as speculated on earlier).

And on Joan of Arc: yeah, she definitely helped kick it off. Of course, it still took a few hundred years after she died for nationalism as a concept to really get going, and it looks like it'll be a long time yet before it gets itself gone.

Angels are Universe Two beings.

Now this next part is important:

"Second Life Humans" (who are human in appearance and initial thought structure) are Universe Three Beings (at least that is how I'm reading it).

I don't see things that way. First of all, what are you calling "Universe Three"? No one (except for Stuart, possibly) knows what is on the other side of the Minos Gate. And Stuart has explicitly stated, on multiple occasions, that Heaven and Hell are planet analogs in the sibling universe to ours. That sibling universe (with multiple Klein bottle and maybe even other kinds of "universes" in it) with our whole universe together make up a fundamental particle in the "next universe up." Think back to all the movies where the characters are getting high and start talking about our solar system being an atom in some bigger reality, and all the atoms in our universe being whole other solar systems, all the way down and all the way up. That is the impression I get of the cosmology that Stuart has created for this series.

Now, what's on the other side of the Minos Gate could be some sort of interface to one of the other "higher" or "lower" universes, but we have no evidence for that. It could be an interface to one of the other "pocket areas" in the same universe as Heaven or Hell. It could be a link to a universe or pocket universe that is in a completely different quark/fundamental particle of the "next universe up." It could be something else entirely. The only thing we know is that we can't directly affect what's on the other side of the Minos Gate, because the rules of existence are just too different, for both us and Homo Caelis. Calling the Earth universe "Universe One," the Hell/Heaven universe "Universe Two," and the other side of the Minos Gate "Universe Three" implies that there's as much difference between Earth and Hell as there is between Hell and the other side of the Minos Gate, which obviously is not the case at all.

Of course, I could be completely misunderstanding this cosmology, in which case this way too long missive is little more than wasted space. I have no problem being convinced otherwise with evidence to the contrary.

[Stuart]

Of course, I could be completely misunderstanding this cosmology, in which case this way too long missive is little more than wasted space. I have no problem being convinced otherwise with evidence to the contrary.

Nope, you've got it spot-on. Heaven and Hell are the equivalents of planets in our sibling universe with our own and that sibling together forming a fundamental particle in the next universe "up" (just as the fundamental particles in our universe contain a complementary pair of universes going "down". The Minos Gates may lead to other universes in other fundamental particles, they may lead up, they may lead down. Nobody knows.

[Stuart]

Not to discourage you, Stuart, but it appears you've had haters from day one for this whole deal.
http://thecancermancan.livejournal.com/ ...fucktards.

They've been known for some time. As Darth Yan says, they're a bunch of rather sad losers. The most appropriate reaction is to feel sorry for them.

[Edward Yee]

Brovane, she also then told Caesar at the end of Armageddon that she'd resigned her commission.

[Tiwaz]

Lt Kim specifically asked to get paid again and specifically said that they where back in the army to the rest of the team. She actually delighted in the thought of causing the headaches in the Army payroll system by being asked to be paid after she was dead. This would tell me that she opted to continue her enlistment term. This I would argue would mean that her enlistment term is in full effect until her discharge date. The other's are not specifically mentioned as to if they elected to be paid again.

Yes, she CHOSE to get paid again. She chose to continue her enlistment until she got out and joined Caesar. Or have new enlistment. As said, letting people arbitarily continue their treaties from first life in second is huge can of worms which no sane Earth government wants to open. Again, I am looking at pensions.

Now... Back to Lt Kim...
She volunteered. How are you going to get all those others to volunteer as well? Clearly, considering how large amount of professionals Caesar has at disposal and how it is implied that nukes came out to cut the losses very large portion of deceased soldiers do not volunteer to continue their enlistment.

If they did, there would be no issue. But clearly they do not.

Thus, your implication that there is no problem through continuing the enrollment is false. They have problem and only way to implement your suggestion is to force second lifers into service. Which in turn would turn very sour very fast.

[Edward Yee]

This is already an issue with Guillaume, who at least was sentenced to front-line service in a penal battalion... but (only) for the war in Heaven. After that though...

[Teebs]

I long to ask Kaufman whether he thinks what they did in '97 was somehow better.

I once had a slightly heated discussion with the man in which he said the Liberal Democrats were a far left party (as an attack, not praise), so I would imagine he quite approved.

[[R_H]]

It's a pity they didn't think of producing 5.56mm hollowpoints either, because those might have made an equally good interim measure without issuing new weapons or rendering the old ammo completely worthless.

I don't think an HP bullet would be able to penetrate deep enough, compared to FMJ, to be effective.

[PaperJack]

low caliber ammunition would be only effective when paired with gatling guns

[Simon_Jester]

At which point it's too heavy to be man-portable, at which point it becomes a vehicle-mounted weapon... at which point you might as well use a heavier caliber anyway. If you're committed to making this a pintle-mounted machine gun on a vehicle, you might as well chamber it in 7.62 as in 5.56, I'd think, for instance.

[Bayonet]

Hollowpoint in 5.56 mm would be totally ineffective, less effective than FMJ. The penetration would be completely insufficient.

It might offer some utility in 7.62 NATO, though. There are big game rounds that penetrate while retaining most of their mass. It might be a way to stretch some life out of all those 7.62mm machineguns, and even auto-rifles.

[Brovane]

Lt Kim specifically asked to get paid again and specifically said that they where back in the army to the rest of the team. She actually delighted in the thought of causing the headaches in the Army payroll system by being asked to be paid after she was dead. This would tell me that she opted to continue her enlistment term. This I would argue would mean that her enlistment term is in full effect until her discharge date. The other's are not specifically mentioned as to if they elected to be paid again.

Yes, she CHOSE to get paid again. She chose to continue her enlistment until she got out and joined Caesar. Or have new enlistment. As said, letting people arbitarily continue their treaties from first life in second is huge can of worms which no sane Earth government wants to open. Again, I am looking at pensions.

Now... Back to Lt Kim...
She volunteered. How are you going to get all those others to volunteer as well? Clearly, considering how large amount of professionals Caesar has at disposal and how it is implied that nukes came out to cut the losses very large portion of deceased soldiers do not volunteer to continue their enlistment.

If they did, there would be no issue. But clearly they do not.

Thus, your implication that there is no problem through continuing the enrollment is false. They have problem and only way to implement your suggestion is to force second lifers into service. Which in turn would turn very sour very fast.

As far as Lt Kim is concerned it could be very simple. If you are 2-years into a 4-year enlistment then if you elect after death to continue in the US military then you need to serve out the full 2-years, not just pack up and leave when you want. Usually with enlistments in the US military it is 8-years with 4-years of active duty and 4-years of in-active reserve. So even if Kim was at the end of the 4-year enlistment she can still be called up for active duty as a reservist. I know during WW2 for people that where called up into service, it was for the duration of the conflict. For Lt. Kim this doesn't matter since she enlisted before outbreak of hostilities. The courts will have to decide if a contract with a specific time-table is still in-force after death. For example if someone is 20-years into a 100-year prison sentence according to what you say they are free and clear after their death. I could see contracts with specific end dates enforceable without opening the can of worms of contracts until death for pensions, Social Security etc. First Lifers are already being forced into service to help free the second lifers from the Hell Pit with conscription. Basically you are in it for the duration of the conflict just as in WW2. So it is ok to force first lifers into service but not second lifers?

[Tiwaz]

The courts will have to decide if a contract with a specific time-table is still in-force after death. For example if someone is 20-years into a 100-year prison sentence according to what you say they are free and clear after their death. I could see contracts with specific end dates enforceable without opening the can of worms of contracts until death for pensions, Social Security etc. First Lifers are already being forced into service to help free the second lifers from the Hell Pit with conscription. Basically you are in it for the duration of the conflict just as in WW2. So it is ok to force first lifers into service but not second lifers?

Here you forget couple details again. First, the courts. Which courts?
Do they have authority in Hell?

What many people forget in threads like this, is that nations do not have much authority outside their own borders. US laws stop applying when you leave soil of USA (or unless you are soldier in US military in nation which has signed some very stupid treaties). This rather applies to Yamantau-group as well. Their authority only extends to those who accept it. They do not have similar authority as UN, which to some level can say it speaks for Earth as whole.

I am not 100% sure how situation is with Hell, but overall I undertand that Earth governments have not pulled conquistador on it and declared that land belongs to them now.

Issue with continuing contracts is that you cannot escape the can of worms.
If you declare that any kind of treaty will carry on beyond death, you are essentially declaring second lifer to be same person as first lifer legally.

Which leads to logical conclusion that all rights and privileges of first lifer have to come to second lifer as they are recognized as same person. So, if you had right to pension in first life, you must have it in second. Trying to enforce some contracts while denying others is not going to work.

And if you tried, you would only enrage second lifers who feel that they are getting the shaft by being treated as second class citizens who have duties but no rights. Which would only encourage them to flock to New Rome or any other independent entity in Hell. Who in turn have their own laws and courts and recognize those, not Earth ones.

What happened with Kim is pretty much something that took place during chaotic period when decisions were more or less of temporary nature.
Now with wartime conditions having passed, you have to think seriously on all consequences of given decision, both political and legal.

[Deebles]

I'm curious... as an exercise in constructive criticism, which one thing have you liked best about the Armageddon War/Salvation War, and which has grated the most?

What I've liked best: How well the consequences of these events have been thought out, and their repercussions explored.

What's grated the most: Kim et al. in Hell, and how easy the escape seemed to be. One thing the demons should be really good at is prison guard work; they've had millennia of experience, at the very least. Is organising a proper man-hunt complete with the hellish equivalent of sniffer dogs and maybe aerial support after finding dead demons really all that far beyond them?

[CaptainChewbacca]

It was explained that about HALF of all able-bodied demons were mustered for the conquest of earth, so that meant there was a big manpower shortage. My guess is this was the first time demons were ever faced with an active, aggressive insurgency. And if they hadn't been supplied from earth they would have been wiped out in a week.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah.

Human escapees wouldn't be much of a threat to demons without human weapons supplied to them, because any demon could rip any normal Second Lifer apart. The weapons make the decisive difference.

Before the Salvation War, if a human prisoner escaped it probably wasn't worth massive investment of demonic manpower to find him. You'd either run across them later and throw them back into the torture chambers, or not, in which case there'd be plenty of other dead humans coming along later.

That helps to explain why Rahab and her escapees stayed out of contact for so long: the demons really weren't keeping track of their prisoners that well.