Crossroads Inc. wrote:LAst night on Keith Olbermann, he did his "special comment" about this whole fiasco and I learned soemthing rather telling... Right down the road from 'ground zero' in a small rundown redbrick that looks almost abandoned from the outside, is a "real" mosque.
It was founded in the early 70's by a local man, nad peopel worship in the basement. It has been there since Before the twin towers was built and still functions today.
It is the thing these people are actually afraid of, a place of muslim worship! It has been operating since before the twin towers were built and guess what... No Terrosist training camps, no incitments to bomb America, not even a peep from the locals who barely know it exists.
Again, put into fact that it is physically closer then the community center being proposed and you realize just how idiotic this all is.
Found an article of the show you're talking about, I think.
The moment this monstrous betrayal of our America gained the slightest traction, the next goal was unveiled. 'No more building permits for any mosques in this country,' brayed a man from the euphemistically-named "American Families Association." Of course, he said, maybe the permits could be granted if the congregation quote "was willing to publicly renounce the Koran."
"They came first for the building permits." But back to Downtown. Does the name "Masjid-Manhattan" mean anything to you? Let me take you, in conclusion, to 20 Warren Street. Not much to look at. Not from across the street Not from up close. That open door is the only thing that distinguishes it from the rest of the grill-fronts of the neighborhood.
That, and the yellow sign there. "Entrance To Islamic Center." It's in the basement. It is a Muslim house of worship. Masjid-Manhattan. It lost its lease in a larger building down the street, two years ago. The new facility is so small that only about 20 percent of worshipers can use it, at a time. But "Masjid-Manhattan" opened in early 1970. Four blocks away, the World Trade Center opened, in December 1970.
The actual place that is the real-life equivalent of the paranoid dream contained in the phrase "Ground Zero Mosque," has been up and running, since before there was a World Trade Center, and for nine years since there has been a World Trade Center.
Running, without controversy, without incident, without terrorism, without protest. Because this is America, dammit.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
As if that's a surprise to anyone. Go to any right wing site and take a look at the discussion over this subject and it's abjectly clear that they don't give a shit about the laws of the land or anything other than just imposing their tribal bigotry on everyone else.
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Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
There's a conservative commentator to whose show I listen - and for my money he's just about the smartest and the best thinker among 'em - who on the subject of same-sex marriage says basically that I understand how gay people *feel* about it but there are more important social concerns than their *feelings* but at the same time is in a positive lather about the terrible, terrible refusal on the part of the pro-mosque crowd to consider the feelings of the people who don't want a mosque on that particular spot.
I think he's representative.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
Edi wrote:As if that's a surprise to anyone. Go to any right wing site and take a look at the discussion over this subject and it's abjectly clear that they don't give a shit about the laws of the land or anything other than just imposing their tribal bigotry on everyone else.
I've been trying to give folks down there the benefit of the doubt but its getting harder and harder.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Phantasee wrote:This is one of the things that make me seriously question the image of freedom and equality these people try to push for their country.
You mean you have not realized it is all a crock of shit yet? What rock have you been hiding under for the past... oh say... 30 years?
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
You mean you have not realized it is all a crock of shit yet? What rock have you been hiding under for the past... oh say... 30 years?
Its a little different for those of us who don't have to live with the bullshit every day.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
You mean you have not realized it is all a crock of shit yet? What rock have you been hiding under for the past... oh say... 30 years?
Its a little different for those of us who don't have to live with the bullshit every day.
True, though I dont remember where Phantasee is from.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Fair enough... wait... Alberta? Alberta is Canadian Texas isn't it? Still, fair enough. It is a different country. Unlike the right wingnuts, i do not consider Canada to be America's Hat. You guys (and smallpox) did kick our ass when we tried to invade during the revolutionary war afterall.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Fair enough... wait... Alberta? Alberta is Canadian Texas isn't it? Still, fair enough. It is a different country. Unlike the right wingnuts, i do not consider Canada to be America's Hat. You guys (and smallpox) did kick our ass when we tried to invade during the revolutionary war afterall.
No, no its not. Thats something morons use to slam the Province.
But yeah, Canada has its own culture distinct from the US. Not to say we don't have nutters but its considered quite impolite to shout your nuttery from the hills here.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Kanastrous wrote:There's a conservative commentator to whose show I listen - and for my money he's just about the smartest and the best thinker among 'em - who on the subject of same-sex marriage says basically that I understand how gay people *feel* about it but there are more important social concerns than their *feelings* but at the same time is in a positive lather about the terrible, terrible refusal on the part of the pro-mosque crowd to consider the feelings of the people who don't want a mosque on that particular spot.
I think he's representative.
Let's see.
One group is looking for equal treatment under the law to enter into a marriage contract with the person of their choice and is being discriminated against for bafflingly archaic reasons.
The other is a group that is protesting some Sufi muslims investing tremendous amounts of money into a neighborhood because they think all Muslims are the bad guys and think this is some sort of Islamic Victory monument. Even though the muslims in questions have as much to do with 9/11 as they did and in fact are part of a sect of Islam that is on al-Qaeda's shitlist anyway.
Hrm... who's feelings warrant consideration here? That's a noodle scratcher.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
My point really was just that it's such a tasty illustration of the hypocrisy bound up in the whole thing. They'll insist upon the necessity of overriding others' feelings when it comes to a societal standard (marriage) but scream when someone who wants to build a mosque in perfect compliance with societal standards concerning freedom of religious expression because that doesn't sit well with their 'feelings.'
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
Kanastrous wrote:My point really was just that it's such a tasty illustration of the hypocrisy bound up in the whole thing. They'll insist upon the necessity of overriding others' feelings when it comes to a societal standard (marriage) but scream when someone who wants to build a mosque in perfect compliance with societal standards concerning freedom of religious expression because that doesn't sit well with their 'feelings.'
I'm not necessarily sure that's intentional hypocrisy (though it is without a doubt hypocrisy) as much as cognitive dissonance. It's odious, without a doubt, but this kind of lunatic nutjob simply doesn't make those kind of mental connections because their whole lives they've been indoctrinated not to.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Dude...
Way to overwork a metaphor Shadow. I feel really creeped out now.
I am an artist, metaphorical mind-fucks are my medium.
I'm not sure I like the description of them as "lunatic nutjobs" and the like. The person wielding that brush is dehumanizing them and their behavior just as much as they dehumanize the people building this mosque.
And Alberta has similarities to Texas, but we're far more Canadian than your statement would imply, Aly.
I can recognize the humanity in a lunatic nutjob without having to set aside the assessment that they are a lunatic nutjob.
You're not dehumanizing a person with the label; you're simply forming a dire - if flippant - conclusion regarding their grasp of reality.
Now, you might argue that the act of building a special house in which to prostrate yourself before an invisible Man in the Sky who has insisted that you do so three or more times a day kind of reveals you to be a lunatic nutjob, too. But that expression of lunatic nuttery happens to be Constitutionally protected.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
But you have an ability to see the world in all it's shades of grey, K. The people I'm referring to seem to be no better than the people they mock, and just appear to be part of an opposing tribe.
Phantasee wrote:I'm not sure I like the description of them as "lunatic nutjobs" and the like. The person wielding that brush is dehumanizing them and their behavior just as much as they dehumanize the people building this mosque.
And Alberta has similarities to Texas, but we're far more Canadian than your statement would imply, Aly.
The difference is of course that these people are racist islamophobic bigots. The people they are being bigoted against are friendly religious mystics. Big difference.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Phantasee wrote:But you have an ability to see the world in all it's shades of grey, K. The people I'm referring to seem to be no better than the people they mock, and just appear to be part of an opposing tribe.
Well, some of its shades of gray, anyway.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
When the histories are written, I'll bet that the Old Right and the New Left are put down as having a lot in common and that the people in the middle will be the enemy.
- Barry Goldwater
Americans see the Establishment center as an empty, decaying void that commands neither their confidence nor their love. It was not the American worker who designed the war or our military machine. It was the establishment wise men, the academicians of the center.
- George McGovern
