Just what the heck were they thinking (Gundam)?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Actually it's from IIRC the Entertainment Bible 1: MS Encyclopedia, Part One The One-Year War.

[Thanas]

Most of the inhabitants of Side 3 come from France and Germany, their infantry equipment are reminiscent of Whermacht uniforms, a large number of mobile weapons named have Germanic names or are phrases in German, a 'Master Race' ideology used to justify attacking neutral nations.

So....according to their view of Germany and France, they are both poised to recreate genocidal mania at the drop of a hat. Nice.

[Bottlestein]

The Federation fights for themselves. Zeon fights for the future of mankind.

This was the part that always confused me about Zeon fanboys. I thought much of Zeon's war-making resource comes from Earth: they only mine asteroids for minerals, and even the Jupiter energy fleet doesn't provide all of their resources. Their Spacenoid superiority/ future of mankind bullshit is simply an excuse to secure their strategic supply, and ensure that the necessary percentage of Earth resources is funneled into Zabi colonization plans.

Char is another class of imbecile entirely: he lacks the Zabi "expansionism", yet believes he should have some leadership in the fate of "Spacenoids". I have not watched all of Zeta, but does he finally reconcile himself to the fact that he got consistently thrashed during 0079 by an Earth-born Amuro? Does he finally come to grips with the fact that it was his and Kycilia's ineptitude that got Lalah killed?

[Bottlestein]

For the Char stuff, I don't recall. I haven't seen Zeta for a while.

It's just that I always found the "Char" type of character in the Gundam shows off-puting. He is a skilled pilot, and is decent at commanding ships, and mobile suit platoons, in certain situations. From this, the airs that the writers give him defy description. In the start of 0079, he is leading a scouting force. I was shocked to realize that he was a major villain who, by the end of the series, almost became Kycilia's main general.

[Zinegata]

This was the part that always confused me about Zeon fanboys. I thought much of Zeon's war-making resource comes from Earth:

According to the original setting notes, taking over Earth to gain control over precious resources is one of the principle aims of Contolism. Zeon Deikun apparently believed control of the Earth was vital to keep the space colonies humming.

they only mine asteroids for minerals, and even the Jupiter energy fleet doesn't provide all of their resources.

Their primary sources are actually Asteroids and the Moon. The Jupiter Energy Fleet is neutral and supplied both sides during the war. Speaking of the Moon however...

Their Spacenoid superiority/ future of mankind bullshit is simply an excuse to secure their strategic supply, and ensure that the necessary percentage of Earth resources is funneled into Zabi colonization plans.

Mark Simmons speculated a few years ago that the Zabis family were in fact Moon mining moguls, little different from present-day oil moguls like BP. He cites how the Zabi children are all tall and well-developed (Dozul is an outright monster of a man), but the Zabi patriarch himself is a hunched, weak guy. His theory? The hunched back was the result of too much time on the Moon.

Char is another class of imbecile entirely: he lacks the Zabi "expansionism", yet believes he should have some leadership in the fate of "Spacenoids". I have not watched all of Zeta, but does he finally reconcile himself to the fact that he got consistently thrashed during 0079 by an Earth-born Amuro? Does he finally come to grips with the fact that it was his and Kycilia's ineptitude that got Lalah killed?

He never does. In fact, all of CCA is essentially Char setting up one final duel with Amuro.

It's rather ironic how Char keeps insisting that his dad was not an extremist genocidal maniac (and keeps saying the Zabis perverted Zeonic ideals), when his last major political act in the UC world was the attempted genocide of all life on Earth .

[General Mung Beans]

Actually it's from IIRC the Entertainment Bible 1: MS Encyclopedia, Part One The One-Year War.

Is that book even available in English?

[Bright]

They were trying to subtly imply that Zeon was full of Nazi's.

I'm guessing they didn't realize how offensive what they did was.

What's so offensive about it?

[Thanas]

^Are you kidding me?

[Ford Prefect]

So....according to their view of Germany and France, they are both poised to recreate genocidal mania at the drop of a hat. Nice.

Don't be a moron Thanas, that's obviously not the intent. PS. even his own family thinks Gihren is a loon.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Actually it's from IIRC the Entertainment Bible 1: MS Encyclopedia, Part One The One-Year War.

Is that book even available in English?

No but there was a website that had a scanlation, mind you this was when Mark Simmon's old site and the Den of the White Wolf website were still up.

[Thanas]

So....according to their view of Germany and France, they are both poised to recreate genocidal mania at the drop of a hat. Nice.

Don't be a moron Thanas, that's obviously not the intent.

So why does the populace support this insanity and reversion then?

[Ford Prefect]

It's called 'propaganda'. Thep opulace thinks they're fighting the good fight, against oppression against a bunch of asshole earthnoids. They don't actually know that Gihren plans to wipe out most of the Earth sphere's population.

[Zinegata]

So why does the populace support this insanity and reversion then?

That's an interesting point.

The standard line is that ordinary Zeon citizens genuinely want independence from an "evil and corrupt" Federation.

The reality? No Zeon foot soldier ever mentions this as a central motivation.

Seriously. Check out the entire original series. Zeon soldiers are almost invariably fighting for the sake of their comrades, or to gain personal prestige and power. None of them ever go "We are fighting for independence!" (which would make sense since they were already independent for years before the war!)

The only time we ever hear of Zeon soldiers spout the independence line is during the 0083 Delaz revolt. Where all of the Zeon forces are mindless automatons who think Ghiren is a freaking saint (and thus can be written off as looney extremists).

It's also worth noting that of the five Terrestrial Mobile Division, one is composed entirely of Federation defectors and miscreants from other Sides. That 1/5 of their manpower for the Earth invasion consists of turncoats from the other side (and most of these fanatically held out until 0088 before being wiped out) kinda indicates this isn't a hugely popular war at home.

Thus, I don't think that the Zabis were really able to control Side 3 via propaganda. Rather, they have a substantial plurality (even the Nazis had 1/3 of the popular vote the last time they had elections), and they use this power to control the rest of Side 3. It's a lot easier to control a population when you can just turn off the air.

Schatten->

I used to read the Gundam Project and Den of the White Wolf a lot. I don't think they ever mentioned colonial ethnicities in EB1.

[Ford Prefect]

Thus, I don't think that the Zabis were really able to control Side 3 via propaganda.

Are you kidding? They had Captain Zeon on television!

More seriously (?), when it comes down to it, how 'bad' the Zabis were for the the actual people who lived in Side 3 isn't exactly clear. I mean, yeah, we know for a fact that Gihren is a vicious, cunning megalomaniac, but he was also a vicious, cunning, megalomaniac who gives great speeches. I mean, in a fairly meta example, Gackt actually quoted Gihren's big, post-Garma speech at one of his concerts and managed to get tens of thousands of teenage girls shouting 'Sieg Zeon'. That's a good speech man.

[Zinegata]

There's not a lot of evidence on how the Side 3 residents were treated. However, while the crowd Giren gathered was shouting Sieg Zeon (not unlike those staged Nazi party speeches), the Side 3 residents who were evicted from their colony to make a giant space laser weren't exactly shouting "Sieg Zeon!" either

Moreover, a note must be made regarding Garma Zabi: He was enormously popular in Side 3. In fact it is Garma, NOT Giren, who is seen as the worthy successor to the Zabi Patriarch. Aside from his personal charisma, Garma Zabi actually holds the distinction of NOT having participated in the One Week War genocides.

Heck, even a fair number of upper class Earthnoids even like him. And his lover is an Earthnoid as well.

The fact that such a moderate figure (who is sleeping with the "Lesser Race") is held in such high regard by the common Zeon folk speaks volume to the fact that Zeon isn't full of bloodthirsty genocidal maniacs.

-----

Also, regarding propaganda...

It must be noted that it's extremely easy to control the media in the UC world due to the shutting down of communications via Minovsky particles. So it may be possible that the Zeonic population was shielded from the fact their troops were commiting genocide.

By contrast, take a look at what happened to the Riah Republic, which DOES have a free press.

Riah is a colony cluster home to about 1 billion people. It gained independence before the war due to Zeon intervention, and was widely seen as a Zeon satellite state at the time.

Right after the devastation of the One Week War however, Riah declares strict neutrality, in effect turning its back on its Zeon patron. The population of Riah in 0080 isn't depicted as supportive of Zeon (except for naive kids who like big explosions), and citizens from this Side have volunteered and served in the Federation Forces.

By late UC 0079, with the tide of the war turning (demonstrated on live television to Riahan citizens when the Gundam shoots down nine Rick Doms), Riah begins to base Federation forces within its territory. After an attempted Zeon nuclear attack on Riah (averted by a Federation space patrol), they align themselves further into the Federation camp, renouncing independence and reintegrating into the Federation shortly after the war.

That's a huge about face from a bunch of people who were "liberated" from the "evil and corrupt" Federation.

At best, I think that the media blackout in Zeon only served to shield the population from the worst crimes the Zabis were committing. Had the Zeonic population known the truth, they might have gone into an open revolt. As it stood, the Zeonic population seem to be more tired of a war that was being fought for silly and undefined reasons, which are only really being actively prosecuted by a minority who support the Zabis.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Schatten->

I used to read the Gundam Project and Den of the White Wolf a lot. I don't think they ever mentioned colonial ethnicities in EB1.

It would help iif you read what I actually had said, not what you think I saiid. Which was that iit was on a site that I can remember the name of anymore that was up back when those two used to be.

[Zinegata]

It's a lot easier to control a population when you can just turn off the air.

lol. They can't just turn off the air.

Not literally. But pump in G3 and the population all dies.

Schatten->

Oh, never mind.

[Stark]

Protip: you can also gas terrestrial populations.

[Zinegata]

Except they never actually employed nerve gas on Earth in Gundam. At all. The preferred method of wiping out Earth-based population is to drop a giant rock on them .

Nerve gas by contrast was used on a wide scale during the One Week War against colonies. Zeon's intent was to take over the industrial production of these gassed colonies, something recounted in MSV. After the war, a number of these depopulated colonies are sent to Side 3 to help ease overpopulation (and one gets hijacked and dumped on Earth in 0083).

Gas was also used by the Titans, and it's worth noting that they were able to hush up their initial gas attack which killed 3 million people.

The thing about colony-gassings is that people can't really escape its effects. Just pump the cylinder full of gas from the CO2 scrubbers (or something similar where all the air gets processed), wait until the all the colonists die, and then vent. And they can't run away because the only way out is the docking ring (easily blockaded), or by blasting a hole in the colony (and thus replace the problem of "poisoned air" with "no air at all"). On Earth you can still try to run away or pray the wind blows in your favor.

(But yeah, nerve gas would work in the real world too).

[Ritterin Sophia]

The preferred method of wiping out Earth-based population is to drop a giant rock on them .

Pretty sure colonies are made of metal.

[Zinegata]

Nah, you use colonies to take out major military bases. If you wanna commit genocide, you need something like Axis .

That being said, from what I recall colonies are actually mostly made out of mooncrete, which is kind of like cement rather than metal.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Nah, you use colonies to take out major military bases.

16% of Australia's land mass begs to differ.

[Ford Prefect]

Nah, you use colonies to take out major military bases. If you wanna commit genocide, you need something like Axis .

Calling the events in Char's Counterattack 'genocide' is probably incorrect. It's planet ... o ... cide.

[Swindle1984]

And people actually like the principality?

Jesus Christ.

Mainly just because they're cooler. The Earth Federation that is generally the protagonist in the series is no saint either.

[Zinegata]

Schatten->

Again, let's ignore the fact that the Sydney colony drop was really intended for Jaburo, and I will just reiterate: Mooncrete. Giant rocks stand.

Ford->

The thing is, traditional ethnicities are mostly gone in the UC world. "Race" is generally defined as Earthnoids vs Spacenoids. Hence, killing off planet Earth pretty much counts as Earthnoid genocide.

I can get really, really anal about semantics with Gundams if I want to too you know .