AIs

[kojikun]

Do enlighten us, Spanky.

[SirNitram]

Funny how you say that since you don't even grasp the fucking concept.

How presumptuous of you. I'm actually an advocate of gradual progression towards such things, but unlike you, you presumptuous little shithead, I understand what it means.

It's, essentially, slave labour with a different kind of slaves. Here's a remarkable idea for you, shithead, things did not become free and copious once slaves were used in multi-tier economies(Rome). The slaves mined the minerals.. But the land still cost money. The slaves grew the crops.. But the land still cost money. With machines, the electricity also does, as does the raw material(Surely you don't claim that these uber-machines will be entirely from material you can dig out of the ground any-old-place?), and all the damn rest. And kiss your ass goodbye when one of these SelfAware's starts reading books because it's bored. It'll realize you treat them like shit and start demanding wages.

[kojikun]

Childish name calling.

And I never said fully sentient AI, dumbass. You're also forgetting that slaves are not as versatile, and hard to get, compared to a program you load from a disc. I'm not saying that tomorrow we'll wake up and everything is free. I'm saying that gradually over time with wider and wider integration of AI into systems like oil platform monitoring or industrial factory monitoring, that there will be less and less humans doing these jobs and eventually none. Automation will be cheaper for the companies so they will adopt it (they already have for automobile assembly). Surely you arent foolish enough to say that AI wont be used for such tedious tasks are you?

Eventually the only jobs left to humans are those requiring whatever AIs lack and what humans enjoy doing (probably going to be creative things like designing etc).

So tell me Nitram, if an oil platform is completely self reliant and doesnt need human oversite, besides replacement parts, what are the operational costs? It doesnt have to pay for electricity, its pumping oil so its got all the fuel it neels. It doesn't need to pay works. The only thing that will cost is replacement parts. I would think this would greatly drop the cost of running such a facility, to damn near zero, wouldn't you?

When a mine can replace the humans in the shafts with AIs, and the humans in the processing plants with AIs, and the steel foundries can replace humans in the prouction buildings, their only cost of operation is electricity.

Obviously these two places, the oil platform/electric company and the steel foundries could simply agree to trade unlimited electricity for unlimited replacement parts. Both are happy, because its no skin off their shoulds (remember, they both got rid of thousands of employees and replaced them with AIs so its not as if theyre loosing money). They also no longer have to use money as an intermediary when theyre trading necessary goods (both need something the other has, after all).

So the only people left are the supervisors, the executives, and the designers/engineers. We just cut the cost of steel and electricty by half, atleast, since neither of them have the limitations placed on them by financial issues (they can, afterall get as much electricity and steel as they want now that they dont have to rely on workers who each require money).

[SirNitram]

Childish name calling? I just call spades spades, buddy, if you don't like being called a presumptuous idiot, don't act like a presumptuous idiot.

Oh me oh my.. You actually believe that because no cheques or money is changing hands directly, it's perfect? And you believe subsentients can do this? Have you had any real life experience with AI technology or computers in general?! Do you know nothing of economics?!

A subsentient is simply flat out unsuitable. The first time something happens it's not prepared for, it'll curl up in a ball and cry. At least a sentient one can think on it's feet(Metaphorically), but no, you want to trust these self-sufficient places on computers that are little better than existing machines(If they are somehow better without being sentient, please quantify these alleged improvements.) to run these places.. If you don't understand why this is bad, use Windows 95 for a while.

Your other claim.. Gods. By your logic here, the Ford Motor Company can give every employee a car for free and take no market hit. I don't even know how to begin with this stupidity. Spanky, break it into small words for him, please.

[kojikun]

We're talking singularity level AIs, dipshit. And I DID say capable and reliable. Idiot.

I never said we would use modern technology. AIs are directly linked to the Singularity, and thats nothing near modern technology. Its beyond the shit we can imagine. You should know that.

And you also forget that Ford doesnt have the ability to get what it needs (raw materials, power, etc) for free. Thanks for proving you have no clue WTF I'm talking about.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

In small words: You must have either never taken or failed economics, you dumb shit.

Everything still has to cost something, even if that company owns everything in the God damn world, they still have to keep track of workhours, materials, and labour. And those all cost something.

[kojikun]

Yes, you're right, modern laboror reliant economics ins completely usable in a world where laborers don't exist. Oh, wait..

You're forgetting, spanky, they dont have to pay anyone, dont have to worry about materials cost, or anything like that. But you don't realise this because you don't grasp what the fuck I'm talking about.

Thanks for playing, don't come again.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Something + Something does NOT = Nothing, you idiot.

[SirNitram]

We're talking singularity level AIs, dipshit. And I DID say capable and reliable. Idiot.

I never said we would use modern technology. AIs are directly linked to the Singularity, and thats nothing near modern technology. Its beyond the shit we can imagine. You should know that.

And you also forget that Ford doesnt have the ability to get what it needs (raw materials, power, etc) for free. Thanks for proving you have no clue WTF I'm talking about.

Thank you for utterly failing my challenge! I asked you to quantify how these machines are supposed to be better while still subsentient, you failed. People like you are why the rational Singularity supporters don't show their faces: We get lumped in with utter morons who don't understand what they speak of. Put up or shut up, kid. Quantify the abilities of a Singularity-era subsentient AI(Do I even need to explain to this dickweed why that's a contradiction in terms?).

Yes, you're right, modern laboror reliant economics ins completely usable in a world where laborers don't exist. Oh, wait..

You're forgetting, spanky, they dont have to pay anyone, dont have to worry about materials cost, or anything like that. But you don't realise this because you don't grasp what the fuck I'm talking about.

Thanks for playing, don't come again.

I smell technowank used in place of actual thought. Please actually read what is being posted or fuck off.

[kojikun]

That was very relevant. Thanks for your contribution, I will note that for future reference.

[SirNitram]

That was very relevant. Thanks for your contribution, I will note that for future reference.

Going to respond to my challenge or run off and hide?

[kojikun]

when i replied i didnt see your challange. the response wasnt meant for you but for spanky, sorry.

Subsentience is perfectly suited to tasks like mining. There are few nonroutine conditions you can encounter in something like mining. You have a machine thats grinding down the walls. The possible unexpected events are mine collapse and fire. Mine collapse would be easilly handled by subsentients. And fire would be handled by having the mine closed as all times to open air. Fire starts, burns for a bit, then quickly suffocates from no oxygen. No problem. Heck, pump CO2 into the mine shafts just for fun.

You think this is too complicated for nonsentients? Amazing then that ants can do this and have been doing so for millions of years.

Post Singularity level AI would be capable of thinking equally WELL as ants, or even humans, but not the SAME.

[SirNitram]

My god. You think macroscopic mining has nothing that goes wrong? You clearly live very far from mining communities. Now, myself, I was born three towns from where an entire village dropped about six feet when a tunnel underneath collapsed. I now live in a state where several men were killed for reasons no one is quite sure of. People get trapped down there. Lots of nonstandard shit happens in mining. I don't see how a collapse can be 'easily handled', especially when it involves a few tons of rock and earth hitting the poor machine. Your comparison to ants is amazing.. Ants don't scale up, sorry.

Again, you dance around the subject. Quantify the advantages of a singularity-era subsentient computer. You haven't. You simply say 'Well, this would be good for them, look look!'. It's getting tiresome.

[kojikun]

Ants dont physically scale. Ant level intelligence scales fine. We're not talking rocket science here Nitram, we're talking about a machine that has very few functions, those being moving and digging.

I already have quantified the advantages: Labor without pay. Try reading my posts, idiot.

[SirNitram]

Ants dont physically scale. Ant level intelligence scales fine. We're not talking rocket science here Nitram, we're talking about a machine that has very few functions, those being moving and digging.

I already have quantified the advantages: Labor without pay. Try reading my posts, idiot.

Just like normal automation. I asked you for what was better than current. Nothing you have said can't be done by sufficient, careful use of modern automation and prayer(Prayer that nothing screws up, that is).

[kojikun]

Reliability. We don't have automating in mines now do we? But Singularity level AIs would make that not just possible but guaranteed. Why is it that you keep thinking modern automation? Whyt he fuck cant you get it into your head that im not TALKING about modern automation? Jesus Christ.

[SirNitram]

Reliability. We don't have automating in mines now do we? But Singularity level AIs would make that not just possible but guaranteed. Why is it that you keep thinking modern automation? Whyt he fuck cant you get it into your head that im not TALKING about modern automation? Jesus Christ.

Oy. Magically we will invent much more reliable computers and they will be nothing like todays, despite the fact technology is a evolutionary, not revolutionary, thing. This is exactly why I don't advertise my Pro-Singularity standpoint, because wankers like you just assume it will all become as magic.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Ants dont physically scale. Ant level intelligence scales fine. We're not talking rocket science here Nitram, we're talking about a machine that has very few functions, those being moving and digging.

I already have quantified the advantages: Labor without pay. Try reading my posts, idiot.

Wrong.

Just because you're not signing a check to John Q. Android every Friday doesn't mean that you're getting a free lunch. John Q. Android is gonna get crushed in mine cave-ins, or blown up in oil well blowouts, or crushed in horrible generator accidents. As a result, it will cost something to replace him. What will it cost to replace him? Say we have a factory that builds advanced robots and other complicated machinery. To replace John Q. Android the mining model, we have to give up material and time that would go into building say, Homer J. Robot the nuclear power plant technician. And while we're waiting for the miner to be replaced, we lose ore output. When we lose output, we have less material on hand, which would make it more 'expensive' to replace John Q. Android.

Or another example. Let's say a horrible transformer accident wipes the memories of the robots working the power generation plant. We have to invest the time and resources to repair them. During that time, they will be unavailable to do any work, and yet, will still be consuming electricity (albeit in the form of the machinery used to repair them.) That has a cost associated with it too.

And even these super-robots will eventually wear out and break down. Sure you could make it so they are super-efficient right up to the point they throw a cog in their secondary upper servo-actuator, but they're still gonna break. And you may say "Oh, but we'll be able to recycle them and make new robots out of the old bits." And that's true . . . except it's gonna cost you the time and resources needed to break down the robot bits into raw metal, and then it will cost more time and resources to make new robot bits out of the reclaimed stuff. Do you know what this means?

That's right. It means you're going to always operate at a net loss. Just because you don't have to write a check doesn't mean that you're not ultimately losing. There's no such thing as a free lunch, no matter how much wanking you do.

[kojikun]

Oy. Magically we will invent much more reliable computers and they will be nothing like todays, despite the fact technology is a evolutionary, not revolutionary, thing. This is exactly why I don't advertise my Pro-Singularity standpoint, because wankers like you just assume it will all become as magic.

I said this would happen overnight when? Never. Dumbass.

Terwynn, you're forgetting that not JUST mining will be automated. All manufacturing will be.

Seriously people, when are you going to realise that the elimination of people directly involved in the manufacturing of goods will make the production of said goods costless? What does company have to gain by charging for goods, when it doesnt need to pay for goods in the first place? What good would it do the company to force others to pay, when it gets everything it needs for free, because those companies also have no production costs?

[kojikun]

Oh btw terwynn, according to your logic operating free AIs is more costly then paying thousands of workers. thank you for showing you have no grasp on reality.

[SirNitram]

Oy. Magically we will invent much more reliable computers and they will be nothing like todays, despite the fact technology is a evolutionary, not revolutionary, thing. This is exactly why I don't advertise my Pro-Singularity standpoint, because wankers like you just assume it will all become as magic.

I said this would happen overnight when? Never. Dumbass.

Terwynn, you're forgetting that not JUST mining will be automated. All manufacturing will be.

Seriously people, when are you going to realise that the elimination of people directly involved in the manufacturing of goods will make the production of said goods costless? What does company have to gain by charging for goods, when it doesnt need to pay for goods in the first place? What good would it do the company to force others to pay, when it gets everything it needs for free, because those companies also have no production costs?

Communism does not work in a situation with finite goods and normal physical law. Your attempts to say otherwise are merely underlining your intense stupidity. We have shown you why you are wrong, now please fuck off.

[kojikun]

Communism doesnt work in a system where PEOPLE must be FORCED to work. Idiot.

You've not shown anything other then that you don't even know what I'm saying. According to you people companies cant make profits, EVER, even when they don't have to pay employees but still get the work! HAH!

[kojikun]

im going to sleep. when i wake up i expect countless posts, many berating me because noone grasps the concept of acceleration of change. oh well. so much for this conversation. night.

[SirNitram]

Communism doesnt work in a system where PEOPLE must be FORCED to work. Idiot.

You've not shown anything other then that you don't even know what I'm saying. According to you people companies cant make profits, EVER, even when they don't have to pay employees but still get the work! HAH!

I'll use small words. There's no evidence this gets through your primitive brain, but I'll try it.

Companies make money because they take money.

I'll let that seep in. The money they take does not just handle paying works. It also pays for materials, electricity, and space. These are all finite things. If you can alter physical reality enough that all three are infinite, sure, your ideas might work. But all three are definately finite: And every time you have to replace even the cheapest of drones, you are taking away from the bottum line, which still exists. Granted, if you get rid of money, it's now the bottum line of raw materials, but it's still a net loss.

These things will not vanish on your say-so, or because technology gets more efficient.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Oy. Magically we will invent much more reliable computers and they will be nothing like todays, despite the fact technology is a evolutionary, not revolutionary, thing. This is exactly why I don't advertise my Pro-Singularity standpoint, because wankers like you just assume it will all become as magic.

I said this would happen overnight when? Never. Dumbass.

Terwynn, you're forgetting that not JUST mining will be automated. All manufacturing will be.

Seriously people, when are you going to realise that the elimination of people directly involved in the manufacturing of goods will make the production of said goods costless? What does company have to gain by charging for goods, when it doesnt need to pay for goods in the first place? What good would it do the company to force others to pay, when it gets everything it needs for free, because those companies also have no production costs?

And if you had taken the time to read my reply, then you would see that I've taken that into account. Once again:

As a result, it will cost something to replace him. What will it cost to replace him? Say we have a factory that builds advanced robots and other complicated machinery. To replace John Q. Android the mining model, we have to give up material and time that would go into building say, Homer J. Robot the nuclear power plant technician. And while we're waiting for the miner to be replaced, we lose ore output. When we lose output, we have less material on hand, which would make it more 'expensive' to replace John Q. Android.

You break a robot of one type, you have to give up something to replace it. Just as some robots will be more costly in terms of time and resources to produce. For example, a robot that digs holes will be not be as expensive as the robot that has to sort out the ore from the dross. You can design a robot that does the job with 95% efficiency, but to build him, it's going to involve giving up the ability to produce say three of the diggers, compared to the original model which could do it with 85% efficiency, but could be had for 1.5 diggers.

Automating all of industry is not going to make things costless. All you're doing is playing a shell game, where you're cleverly hiding the costs, but they're still there.