Obama endorses New York Mosque plan

[Elfdart]

Et tu, Howard Dean? http://tinyurl.com/2ed43ek

[Setzer]

But don't you realize? This truly is holy ground. We can't allow the profound spiritual truths of Off Track Gambling, or the unrivalled spiritual ecstacy of the New York Dolls Gentleman's club to be defiled!

[j.eller]

I'm baffled why the President has to weigh in on this at all.

Because with the exception of the mayor and the Congressman who represents the district that includes the ruins of the WTC, the political leaders in New York have either been pandering to the bigots or are too cowardly to stand up to them.

Maybe he's hoping that standing up for secularism will improve his personal image in the Middle East and everywhere else. Not to mention that of the USA as a whole.
And as has already been mentioned, it's not going to lose him the support of anyone that didn't dislike him already.

[Elfdart]

Maybe he's hoping that standing up for secularism will improve his personal image in the Middle East and everywhere else. Not to mention that of the USA as a whole.
And as has already been mentioned, it's not going to lose him the support of anyone that didn't dislike him already.

If that's the case he's a dumbass. Just about everyone in the Middle East knows he's got 50,000 troops (not including mercenaries) in Iraq, that he blows up entire families in Afghanistan, that he hauls adolescent Muslims before Bush's kangaroo courts and that he's Netanyahu's bitch. So who exactly is he going to please with his mealy-mouthed endorsement of religious freedom?

[chitoryu12]

I've been to Ground Zero twice myself. Away from the actual Ground Zero site, I found one memorial: a long white board with the names of all of the dead listed on it. Apart from that (and my mother trying to convince my girlfriend that building the mosque is bad), there's absolutely nothing "sacred" about the land. It's mostly just a noisy construction area.

[Akumz Razor]

It's mostly just a noisy construction area.

Which brings up the question: if the "Freedom Tower" was already completed (or even in a noticeable phase of construction) would this mosque situation even be an issue?

[Sarevok]

I've been to Ground Zero twice myself. Away from the actual Ground Zero site, I found one memorial: a long white board with the names of all of the dead listed on it. Apart from that (and my mother trying to convince my girlfriend that building the mosque is bad), there's absolutely nothing "sacred" about the land. It's mostly just a noisy construction area.

Indeed. Patriotic talk and outbursts of emotion is cheap. Actually sacrificing some of the most prime real estate in the world for sentimental purposes ? Bah ! That would never happen. Manhattan is just....Manhattan. There is nothing sacred about it.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I want to jump into this just to say that one of the worst parts of this is how effective the misinformation is... Everywhere I look I see people and headlines with "People upset about Ground Zero Mosque"

Well....
IT IS NOT A MOSQUE YOU MORONS!

It wont have minerates or big muslim moons or domes or towers, its not some giant cathedral, it is not a MOSQUE! It is a friggin Community Center built BY muslims with a small "area of worship" on the upper floors.

It is NOT A MOSQUE!

[end rant]

[General Zod]

I want to jump into this just to say that one of the worst parts of this is how effective the misinformation is... Everywhere I look I see people and headlines with "People upset about Ground Zero Mosque"

Well....
IT IS NOT A MOSQUE YOU MORONS!

It wont have minerates or big muslim moons or domes or towers, its not some giant cathedral, it is not a MOSQUE! It is a friggin Community Center built BY muslims with a small "area of worship" on the upper floors.

It is NOT A MOSQUE!

[end rant]

The fact that there's already a mosque in the same general area makes it even more hilarious.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I pointed that out to a conservative "Friend" of mine today, telling him there there has been a functional Mosque near there sicne BEFORE there were the twin towers... And was response was...

I was lying.

Because if there WAS a mosque near such holy ground he is sure he would have heared about it by now! I then proceeded to show him the internet link to the story about the mosque, and his response was "Well thats not a REAL mosque, that is just some dumpy run down building!"

I then procceded to show him a picture of the "mosque" he is so upset about and he came back with "Well thats what they SAY its going to look like, but thats just to fool liberals like you!"

I mean, really, these people are nuts. And to top it off, I got This from him two minutes ago:


The tag he sent in his e-mail was "A glimpse of your liberal future"
>_<

[Kanastrous]

At least now I have an idea for a float to enter in the DooDah parade...

[Liberty]

I pointed that out to a conservative "Friend" of mine today, telling him there there has been a functional Mosque near there sicne BEFORE there were the twin towers... And was response was...

I was lying.

Because if there WAS a mosque near such holy ground he is sure he would have heared about it by now! I then proceeded to show him the internet link to the story about the mosque, and his response was "Well thats not a REAL mosque, that is just some dumpy run down building!"

I then procceded to show him a picture of the "mosque" he is so upset about and he came back with "Well thats what they SAY its going to look like, but thats just to fool liberals like you!"

I mean, really, these people are nuts. And to top it off, I got This from him two minutes ago:


The tag he sent in his e-mail was "A glimpse of your liberal future"
>_<

I'm sorry for you. That is TOUGH.

[ShadowDragon8685]

<snip insanity>


The tag he sent in his e-mail was "A glimpse of your liberal future"
>_<

Are you sure that's a friend, Crossroads? I have a few family members who are in the habit of sending out ridiculous chain-emails in that kind of vein and other christian nonsense and assorted generalized nonsense. I finally had to tell them off rather strongly that I disliked such messages, did not hold to those views, and that if they would not kindly stop sending me such things, I was going to have to block their email accounts, thus preventing me from receiving any messages of importance - say, notices of family events - they wished to send me.

It worked, they took me off the mailing lists, and I get a few emails from them a year about genuinely important shit. Is this person the kind of person you must stay in contact with, even if you find their politics and religious thumping disturbing, like a family member?

[Isolder74]

I love how it's always called the 'Ground Zero' Mosque. This is so funny for several reasons the biggest one being that it's NOT anywhere near 'Ground Zero' other then it's being built in Manhattan! Can you even see the thing from the World Trade Center anyway? This is like complaining about someone building a strip club next to a cathedral when the club is being built simply in the same side of town no where near the or even visible from the cathedral.

So basically what these anti-mosquers are saying is because of the events of 9/11 nothing Muslim can ever be built on the island of Manhattan anymore because a few religious zealots were suicidal morons. So in that case lets protest the building of any Catholic church anywhere near the home of Galileo, or something remotely British near Bunker Hill and so forth.

Everything about this issue is very stupid.

[Aaron]

I love how it's always called the 'Ground Zero' Mosque. This is so funny for several reasons the biggest one being that it's NOT anywhere near 'Ground Zero' other then it's being built in Manhattan! Can you even see the thing from the World Trade Center anyway? This is like complaining about someone building a strip club next to a cathedral when the club is being built simply in the same side of town no where near the or even visible from the cathedral.

So basically what these anti-mosquers are saying is because of the events of 9/11 nothing Muslim can ever be built on the island of Manhattan anymore because a few religious zealots were suicidal morons. So in that case lets protest the building of any Catholic church anywhere near the home of Galileo, or something remotely British near Bunker Hill and so forth.

Everything about this issue is very stupid.

You would think they would be pushing for the tearing down of every Muslim building in town as well. But nope.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I love how it's always called the 'Ground Zero' Mosque. This is so funny for several reasons the biggest one being that it's NOT anywhere near 'Ground Zero' other then it's being built in Manhattan! Can you even see the thing from the World Trade Center anyway? This is like complaining about someone building a strip club next to a cathedral when the club is being built simply in the same side of town no where near the or even visible from the cathedral.

So basically what these anti-mosquers are saying is because of the events of 9/11 nothing Muslim can ever be built on the island of Manhattan anymore because a few religious zealots were suicidal morons. So in that case lets protest the building of any Catholic church anywhere near the home of Galileo, or something remotely British near Bunker Hill and so forth.

Everything about this issue is very stupid.

You would think they would be pushing for the tearing down of every Muslim building in town as well. But nope.

Do you think that might not be on the agenda if this place bows down to the pressure? Or that they're not thinking it?

[Aaron]

Do you think that might not be on the agenda if this place bows down to the pressure? Or that they're not thinking it?

I don't think the protesters on the ground are intelligent enough to do anything but what their leaders tell them too. No wit might be possible that said leadership plans this as the next step but I haven't heard squat about it and until I do, I have no intention of running around like a chicken with no head.

[Liberty]

One thing that makes me mad is how many people say something like "it's not that they can't build a mosque - that's totally allowed, freedom of religion, etc - it's just that they shouldn't build it there, out of respect." One of the numerous problems with that is the dozens of communities around the country where people have protested proposals of building mosques! So no, the problem isn't that it's too close to ground zero - the problem is that it's a "mosque"! Never mind that it really isn't anyway...

[Civil War Man]

There was a recent serious article at Cracked that touched upon this. It lays on the "Rah rah America" pretty thick in the end, but other than that it pretty much sums up everything about why it's a bad sign that this is even an issue.

3 Reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" Debate Makes No Sense

I don’t usually write about politics. It’s important, but something I want no part of – kind of like a raw sewage treatment facility. But frankly, I haven’t been this upset in a long time. And it’s due to the logic-hating, herd-mentality rhetoric that some have been flinging in opposition to the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque.” For the uninitiated, there are plans to construct an Islamic Community center in lower Manhattan. And, of course, lower Manhattan is where the World Trade Center stood before terrorists destroyed it, thereby murdering 3,000 Americans. I was working in New York City at the time. As was my father. As was my pregnant wife. I remember the day well. And the days that followed. I think most of all, I remember standing on the Staten Island Ferry, coming home with 200 other silent, reverent New Yorkers of every age, race, and religion, as we watched our city still smoldering a full week later. And it is with this backdrop that I can say to every politician spouting off and opposing the construction of this Islamic community center: “Shut up. Go away. You hate America.”

I’m talking about people like professional political tumor, Newt Gingrich, and future worst President ever, Sarah Palin, who have both slammed supporters of the Islamic community center with rhetoric so flawed, I’m afraid even linking to it might impair your computer’s higher functioning circuits. But it’s not just them. Due to the wave of misinformation being spread, apparently 68% of Americans also oppose the mosque.

How did this happen? Well, basically a complacent or a complicit media helped perpetuate three ideas that are either outright lies or intellectually dishonest arguments designed to bring out the very worst in all of us. And as you continue to hear them–and you will–take out this column which you will have already printed and laminated, and recite thusly:

1. It’s Not at Ground Zero
The proposed structure is not on the hallowed ground of the former World Trade Center. It’s at an abandoned and private building blocks away that used to be the Burlington Coat Factory. That means that if every one of the “g’s” that Sarah Palin drops when she’s talkin’ folksy were 10 by10 feet large, you could still stack over 120 of them from Ground Zero to this community center. Easy.

That sort of makes all the difference, doesn’t it? I know, when I first heard they were building a mosque at Ground Zero, I literally said, “What the fuck.” Like out loud and everything. I didn’t even pull a “WTF” despite years of writing for the Internet. That’s because for the last nine years, we New Yorkers have listened to countless proposals and plans and ideas of how to best rebuild the area while honoring the memories of those who died. And suddenly it seemed we were being told, “Yep, it’s all decided. Mosque. We want a mosque here. Just feels right.”

So yeah, of course, no one was on board. That just made no sense. What happened to that proposed waterfall and wall of names? Nothing happened. Because no one was ever building a mosque on that site. It’s just a lie that was told to you by people who wanted you to be afraid, upset, and hurt. People who wanted to manipulate your tender emotions to inspire contempt for the government. It’s about as intellectually dishonest as manipulating debate footage to make it appear that “Drill, baby, drill” is Sarah Palin’s stance on partial birth abortions. It’s just wrong.

And to those who say that any location in lower Manhattan is too close for a Muslim structure, let me remind you that right now, in the shadow of what would be the former World Trade Center, there’s a Halal Meat Hot Truck with a multi-denominational line that wraps around my building every day at lunch time. And I’m positive that’s owned by a Muslim. And I’ve even suffered at his hands. (Spoiler alert: avoid the goat rhoti). Should he move a few more blocks away too? Of course, not. That would just be silly, right? Is it different? Why? Because mosques are religious and the 911 terrorists perverted Islam into something violent and hateful? Guess what? Those knights did the same thing to Christianity for the 300 years of the Crusades, and no one’s saying that churches shouldn’t be built anywhere in … Europe.

2. It’s Not Strictly A Mosque
A mosque by definition is a purely religious structure. This is a large proposed community center, open to the public and set to house, among other things, a basketball court. Yes there will be a prayer space inside it as well, but you don’t call St. Mary’s Hospital a church because it happens to have a chapel inside it, do you? Well, maybe you do. You read about politics on the Internet from a guy who claims not to write about politics, so maybe you’re functionally illiterate. But the point is, you shouldn’t.

But “Islamic Community Center open to the public” doesn’t have the same ability to scare people the way “mosque” does. I mean, you hear “mosque” you think mosquito, you think STING! You hear “mosque” you think “mask,” you think DECEPTION! You hear “community center” you think “OK. One more place I’ll never go.” So, yeah, clearly the decision was made by those who hate you to call this the “Ground Zero Mosque” even though it’s not at Ground Zero and not technically a mosque. Why are we still discussing this? Why haven’t you already asked Sarah Palin if she’s the devil on her Twitter account? Oh, that’s right. Because the devil is supposed to be good at lying.

3. You Can’t Simultaneously Acknowledge A Right And Insist That Your Government Suppress It
But the real reason I’m writing is not just because of people like Sarah Palin, but because of shameful, spineless panderers like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. Here’s a statement from each of them designed to give the appearance of being tolerant while adhering to good old-fashioned common sense values:

From Sarah Palin’s Twitter Feed:

“We all know that they have the right to do it, but should they?”

And from Harry Reid’s spokesperson:

While respecting that Muslims have a First Amendment right to religious freedom, Reid “thinks this mosque should be built some place else,” his spokesman Jim Manley said Monday.

Let me make something clear. In order to make these statements you must hate two things: logic and America. There is NO way to say that an individual has a protected right to do something and simultaneously criticize your government for not suppressing the execution of that right. There is no way for President Obama or any other president to put a stumbling block in the way of the free exercise of religion without violating the sanctity of that freedom. Should I say it more simply? OK.

You can’t legally stop people from obeying the law.

The Burlington Coat factory is private property. Those who want to build on it are private citizens. They are violating no law in wanting to build a community center. Under what authority do you propose we stop them? There is no “unless you’re a Muslim within X yards of a national tragedy exception” to the free exercise of religion. Do the Gingrichs and Palins and Reids want to start a precedent where you can compel people not to exercise the freedoms guaranteed under our Constitution provided enough people don’t like you?

And what are we saying to Muslims? That if they were good Americans they would willingly give up their rights? I can’t think of anything less American than that? This is America. We do what we want. And all you have to do to have that right is be a citizen here. And if you’re a traitor, well then we will prosecute you for treason and penalize you for taking up arms against the greatest country in the world, but we will NOT start curtailing your freedoms based on mere speculation fueled by lies about what you’re building and where you’re building it.

In the days following 911 it was very popular to say that we couldn’t do anything differently in America or “the terrorists would win.” We can’t stop driving gas guzzling cars. We can’t stop supporting dictators in other parts of the world for financial or political gain. We can’t vote for a Democrat. Most of that was rhetoric. Some of it was probably true. But one thing is definitely true: if we ask our leaders to start dishonoring the freedoms that make this country great, the terrorists surely will have won. And I don’t want to see that. Because unlike those with power and influence who would lie to you, I love America.

[Phantasee]

I'm not even American and I agree with him. That's what America has always been about, to the whole world. Anyone who still has some love for the US remembers that part of the American Dream. And of course these people against it are the reason people don't have that love for the US anymore.

[The Spartan]

Hell, they're even going against the words of their favorite president. One they all but worship: Reagan.

We in the United States, above all, must remember that lesson, for we were founded as a nation of openness to people of all beliefs. And so we must remain. Our very unity has been strengthened by our pluralism. We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain, separate. All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, and those who believe are free, and should be free, to speak of and act on their belief.

[j.eller]

Maybe he's hoping that standing up for secularism will improve his personal image in the Middle East and everywhere else. Not to mention that of the USA as a whole.
And as has already been mentioned, it's not going to lose him the support of anyone that didn't dislike him already.

If that's the case he's a dumbass. Just about everyone in the Middle East knows he's got 50,000 troops (not including mercenaries) in Iraq, that he blows up entire families in Afghanistan, that he hauls adolescent Muslims before Bush's kangaroo courts and that he's Netanyahu's bitch. So who exactly is he going to please with his mealy-mouthed endorsement of religious freedom?

Yeah, but if your reputation stinks that much you'd be doing anything you could, no matter how small, to improve it wouldn't you? I think the intention must be to make it appear that Obama is being progressive in removing his predecessors policies piece by piece, even if in reality he isn't that much different with regard to Guantanamo or Israel.
It's also a lot better than the alternative, which would be him doing his best to veto the plans, and making inflammatory speeches about Islam a la Sarah Palin to try and appease the right wing.

[Skylon]

Hell, they're even going against the words of their favorite president. One they all but worship: Reagan.

We in the United States, above all, must remember that lesson, for we were founded as a nation of openness to people of all beliefs. And so we must remain. Our very unity has been strengthened by our pluralism. We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain, separate. All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, and those who believe are free, and should be free, to speak of and act on their belief.

Modern Republicans gloss over a lot of aspects of Reagan. They latch onto "Tear Down This Wall" and completely ignore how he diplomatically engaged the USSR, which probably had a lot more to do with the ending of the Cold War. Just look at all the BS over Obama's efforts at a nuclear arms reduction treaty, when Reagan himself signed such a treaty with the Soviet Union.

On an aside, there's been some mention of a Moqsue in the Pentagon...is this accurate, or does the Pentagon simply have non-denominational chapels?

[Kanastrous]

Really in counter to the 'mosque=terrorist hatchery' bit what should be hammered is the fact that the Imam directing the project is a Sufi. That's exactly the sort of stream within Islam which we ought to be favoring in the US.

[Civil War Man]

On an aside, there's been some mention of a Moqsue in the Pentagon...is this accurate, or does the Pentagon simply have non-denominational chapels?

I believe it's a non-denominational chapel, but if you go by the definition the opponents have been using for mosque (ie a building with a prayer space for muslims), then the Pentagon is a mosque. The real point of non-denominational chapels, though, is that their identity changes, depending on which religious service is being conducted. If Christians are praying there, it's a church. If Jews are praying there, it's a synagogue. If Muslims are praying there, it's a mosque. If Hindus are praying there, it's a mandir. If there isn't a service being held, then it's non-denominational.