The Salvation War: Pantheocide Epilogue Up

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darksoul
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by darksoul »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:So, despite "centuries of plotting" or whatever, everyone still seems to insist that Michael's plot was conceived exclusively to spare angelkind from the wrath of humanity and that he's an all-around good guy instead of a common dirty little self-aggrandizing coup leader in the grand tradition of Latin America. Are we now intended to believe that Michael gazed upon the Thirty Years War, went "holy shit, these people are only too soon to invade Heaven", and started plotting a backup plan? I somehow doubt that angels are that prescient, even given the extra juice their brain chemistry may have.

yep.
we have one more inconsistency to pile up to those things left unexplained.
Centuries ago, we weren`t enough of a worry for Michael to plot for us. We weren`t such for Elhmas to want to confuse us. So Michael was plotting since then to dethrone yahwe for his own reasons, and the human war was a very nicely timed pretext.
And Elhmas was genuinely trying to do something good for us. he just came about real hard on the means to do it....
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Edward Yee »

According to Elhmas, he figured it out before Michael did; I'm still confused though as to what exactly Paul did to fuck up the whole "Jesus" thing.
"Yee's proposal is exactly the sort of thing I would expect some Washington legal eagle to do. In fact, it could even be argued it would be unrealistic to not have a scene in the next book of, say, a Congressman Yee submit the Yee Act for consideration. :D" - bcoogler on this

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by darksoul »

on the minos gate tech:
my vote goes to a tracking machine that follows a person throughout his/her life, so it can be reconstructed completely. It`s not as hard as it seems, because when we think of it, nobody has made a complete reconstruction of the memories of a second lifers to know if those are truly complete, or are a coarse grain representation of it.
Being a computer programming, I tend to think of it in terms of OOP: A second lifer is a cloned object of the original one, made by a specific implementation of a AbstractFactory / Builder pattern. Specific instance of Factory is chosen based on specific templates by sex, race or/and some other criteria. The data for the second lifer is provided by a listener, designed to log specific events or changes in the brain internal structure or social relationships of the object. the rest is simply a matter of matter and molding a new body to translate the State pattern populated. That`s all, no biggie in theory. :)
Remember, no one knows if memories are completely accurate (living people doesn`t have perfect memories) and the internal physiological changes can be an standard module for everyone, with only the interface of the second lifer and the state of the brain variables being changed.
It`s creepy to found a race with that kind of control and knowledge about our dna, to reduce us to a template. So much for human uniqueness :(

On the second lifer vs first lifers and stuff:
There is something we shouldn`t leave out of sight here: Second lifers are not the same person they were. It is stated that second lifers undergo a psychological change that tend to made then a true second life being, rather than the extension of the first life. However, the Lee story is the solution to all our worries.
Consider the problems we face right now. For the sake of argument, I`m going to assume an United States solution, since at least Cuba is not going to be benefited for this any time soon, as any of the lesser countries without big participation in the war and the HEA:
1 legal obligations of second lifers: If second lifers are considered the legal representative on to which obligations default in the case of death without will, this automatically considers them the legal representation of the first lifer deceased, with all that it conveys. Not good.
2 criminal obligations of the second lifers: If second lifers should carry out the sentences imposed on then in life. Death penalty is a touchy issue (I`m in favor of it, by the way, but ignore the comment). Killing a second lifer without a retrial or something akin is quite unfair. We`ll discuss this further down.
3 Social and national obligations of second lifers: whether second lifers are responsible for the contracts they held while alive with public offices and services, like army, political posts, and such. Not good, obviously.

So, on thing is certain, second life is different enough for a country not to be able to encompass both second and first lifers. It would be a political, social and monetary nightmare. hence, united States of America and United States of Hell. Now, the USH is not a colony, protectorate, influence area, or allied state. It`s the second life country of the USA, an entirely new relation with an entirely new kind of state. Citizenship can be automatic, treating the popping out of the Gate as the equivalent of birth on Earth (I`m assuming the second lifers are sterile, which would be logical, expected and all in all simple). To change citizenship upon arrival, arrangement should be made before death, if possible, or after the citizenship for the default country is in effect. This eliminates the legal gap that exists now when people arrives and gets to choose, without consequences, the state they want to belong to. This is not mentioned, but if a rich person gets to go with its money, this is creating a money leak for the country that lost that citizen which is HUGE. Consider bill gates, or Sergei Brin dying and taking their money with them. Not cool. So, either a limit must be imposed on the amount of money a person gets to keep, or all the assets of a second lifer must be used in transactions with Earth, so that money comes back somehow. it still is an economical hazard of epic proportions. please someone explain that to me, I`m not good at economy in this (or any) scale.
So, once that is taken care of, back to the mirror state relationship. Hell states are dependent on Earth for their population. Dying is the only way they are getting new personnel, so this tie them to one or several countries on Earth. (O my god someone please stop the Chinese before they mass slaughter a couple hundred million of peasants to release some population pressure from Earth to Hell and establish their mirror state with that base... :shock: ). earth states are locked in their Hell counterparts because, well, we are all dying and we better go to some place when we do, right? so it`s a win win... unless the mirror state decides that they are better off getting their new arrivals from somewhere else. we need a new United Nations and such to control this.
Commerce between this countries is not internal commerce. This are TWO different countries, with different laws and interests. They are mirrors, and as such are very likely to uphold the same basic laws and liberties, but that`s it. For example drugs can be legal in USH (there is no prove to show that they are harmful to the environment or second lifers' health or lifespan(deathspan?) ), but are obviously not legal in the USA. Any number of treaties can be signed to bind more tightly these countries together. Now, the economyy models.
Hell states are likely to be heavy exporters of resources at first. War reparations, lack of infrastructure, etc.
As more and more businessmen, adventurers and scientists begin to die, specially if they are allowed to take some money with them, this is likely to change, a la Wild West, I think. This is were things get really interesting. the USH will outdo the USA in ALL fields in a couple of centuries. There will be no secrets hidden for them, no technology unavailable, nothing the USA can do that they can`t, and they can do so much more, with a resource rich land, lower social expenses, virtually limitless lifespans, no unproductive population, and skilled personnel out of thin air. Yes, scientific, technological and productive competition does not look good for Earth. I`m reminded here of the excellent and marvelous Robot trilogy of Asimov (starting with the Caves of Steel), where second lifers act as the space men, and earthlings are, well, just that, poor creatures of fast life and not that much future until they join the other side. Failure to implement a free Hell state matching the USA will flock all second lifers under Caesar`s (or worse, Abigor`s!) banners, with dire consequences in the long run. Defeating a Caesar's invasion of Earth is not something you can pull with a mere nuke or two, I'm sure. Shaping the Hell state into a colony has the problem stated above of second lifers not putting up with it. Plenty of examples of interactions between colonies and metropolis in history to speak of. And finally, having the hell state as an extension of the first one, under the same administration, gathers a huge problem because the populations are just so different. Plenty of ethnic, racial, religious and social internal conflicts to draw examples from IRL.

Now, on the criminal responsabilities. This begs a new legislation entirely. for example, say a person kills another. The motive of the killing must be taken into consideration very, very carefully, because this can cause the penalty to go from 20 years on prison, to life in prison, to death, to death AND prison, to life in prison AND prison in second life, to death and retrial, to death AND DEATH. We have a plethora of choices to exact punishment with here. Now, the issue here is, that the second lifer is a citizen of another country, so as part of the legal binding of mirror states, there must be a clause for legal continuity of verdicts IN THE CASES IT APPLIES. For example, a person that steals to eat, must not be punish in Hell for it, because his motivation has disappeared. He must be given the benefit of doubt. The one that defrauds and cons, must pay repairs of some sort to his victims, and given the benefit of doubt. There is the added benefit that a convicted felon is known to the Hell State, although this is no reason for them to forfeit their social liberties until they commit second life crimes or they remained affected by a cross-gate verdict (the exact scope of which would be determined by a panel of justices, preferably from both parties, and evolve in much the same way they do now).
Retroactivity of such verdicts must be considered in a crime by crime basis. For example, Nazis can be retroactively recondemned to death, if that's the consensus. Common murderers, not so sure. People commiting acts that seem barbaric to us are not to be judged if those acts were acceptable within their societies. for example, mongols massacred the other countries they invaded, but by their standards, they weren't criminals. Should they prove not able to adapt to the new order, they must be either restrained in some sort of reservation, or put in reformatories or at least watched carefully, because they are, for all purposes, unfit to live in society. This is quite a complex subject here.

If a criminal evades justice on Earth, but is caught and proved to be guilty on Hell, they are to do time for their earth bound crimes, and remain branded as a criminal in much the same way convicted felons are. If his crimes warranted a death penalty on Earth, this is obviously not the same on Hell. The sentence can be then commuted to one more proper, previously agreed by both hell and earth high courts.

People committing suicide to avoid fiscal responsibilities are obviously criminals before law, and are to be judged as such before Hell law. they will be held in the same responsibility as those who defraud their customers and flee with the profits to a country with no extradition, for example. In general, people committing suicide while holding financial obligations, without discharging said obligations to a next of kin (with said next of kin explicit, legally binding agreement) is a criminal act and should be treat as such.

for every other kind of crime, they are to be treated as they are treated now by the interpol and such. Laws will cement in time, as cases emerge.

As USH is not the same as USA, dead personnel are not legally bound to their services to their former country, unless their contract specifically said so, and it is legally sound by both the laws of the USA and its mirror state. For example, a soldier can be bound by a contract for five years or until death. Should he die sooner, the mirror state could offer the same position if it is available at the moment, otherwise the new arrival can be presented with an array of choices, or could choose to renew his contract with his original employer, if permitted by the USH law.
for example, a scientist recently dead can have a profound interest in resuming his investigation with the same team he was working with on Earth. If he chooses to resume his work with his USA-based team, he switches his work model from regular worker to outsourced/off-shore/collaborative/remote worker, if both the USH and the USA allows it.
Of course, legal promises of silence to keep corporate and state secrets must be time-bound from now on, but are legally binding in both the original country and its mirror state.

I don't know if this model works for anyone... Sorry for the long post.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Jamesfirecat »

Razor One wrote:Hard labour would be a good possibility. Building infrastructure doesn't come cheap or easily.

Once all the work is out of the way, sentence them as standard. However many years of life they robbed from their victims (assuming murder) is how long they get sentenced for. Kill a man of 40? Life expectancy to 80? Jailtime for 40 years, plus whatever extra if you fail to behave. Kill three men of 37, 40 and 45? That's 40, plus 35, plus 43, that's 118 years behind bars or spent doing hard labour.

Seems fair to me.

Manslaughter would be interesting though considering the victim may be able to choose whether they wish to pursue charges or have them dropped... depending on how the law leans on that one.
So wait if the medium life expectancy is 80... does that mean if you go on a shooting spree in a nursing home and off a bunch of 90 year olds the state ends up owing you negative time spent in jail?

I think I may have located a small problem with your sentencing structure...
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Ascaloth »

Jamesfirecat wrote: So wait if the medium life expectancy is 80... does that mean if you go on a shooting spree in a nursing home and off a bunch of 90 year olds the state ends up owing you negative time spent in jail?
There wouldn't be any nursing homes left. All those 90 year olds whose health would have been bad enough to require residence in such institutions would have offed themselves a long time ago. :lol:
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by FuzedBox »

I know I'm a bit late to the party on this matter, but I could imagine an incredible demon-run prison economy booming in hell; no way to escape for a first lifer without proper gear and oxygen masks, and second lifers would still have a hell of a time, excuse the pun. The death penalty could serve as a very harsh punishment since the individual knows he/she won't be going back to Earth and they have a great time to look forward to.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by darksoul »

FuzedBox wrote:I know I'm a bit late to the party on this matter, but I could imagine an incredible demon-run prison economy booming in hell; no way to escape for a first lifer without proper gear and oxygen masks, and second lifers would still have a hell of a time, excuse the pun. The death penalty could serve as a very harsh punishment since the individual knows he/she won't be going back to Earth and they have a great time to look forward to.
putting daemons as jailors in hell would be like buying a farm in Mississippi, plant cotton and then hiring black people from the slums of new orleans to harvest it.
Not a politically wise move by any account.

EDIT: besides first lifers would simply escape by suicide and bribery at the gates. second lifers are pretty much fucked, I'm afraid.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by GrayAnderson »

Night_stalker wrote:If they have some really F***ed up psychologial issues then yes, but otherwise he makes a valid point. However, first they have to be able to PROVE their daemonic posession.

Last I checked we really decimated the Baldrick's numbers, but the ones who seemed to be doing the possession and then making them kill lots of people were the kids who did it for laughs(Remember Domiklespharatu, the Baldrick from Chapter 82 of Armageddon?), and last I checked we didn't kill daemonic kids...
No, you don't have to prove it. You simply have to show a reasonable likelihood. Actually having to get a Baldrick to confess to the crime would probably be an undue burden...though legally speaking, this would probably be converted into a "mitigating circumstance" but not one that completely wipes the crime away. Basically, it might reduce your crime from murder to manslaughter and reduce your sentence.
Jamesfirecat wrote:
Razor One wrote:Hard labour would be a good possibility. Building infrastructure doesn't come cheap or easily.

Once all the work is out of the way, sentence them as standard. However many years of life they robbed from their victims (assuming murder) is how long they get sentenced for. Kill a man of 40? Life expectancy to 80? Jailtime for 40 years, plus whatever extra if you fail to behave. Kill three men of 37, 40 and 45? That's 40, plus 35, plus 43, that's 118 years behind bars or spent doing hard labour.

Seems fair to me.

Manslaughter would be interesting though considering the victim may be able to choose whether they wish to pursue charges or have them dropped... depending on how the law leans on that one.
So wait if the medium life expectancy is 80... does that mean if you go on a shooting spree in a nursing home and off a bunch of 90 year olds the state ends up owing you negative time spent in jail?

I think I may have located a small problem with your sentencing structure...
You use life expectancy at that time, not LE at birth. Look at this table:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... 0s0103.pdf

Now, the simple "fix" would be to put a floor on the 'time per murder' at, say, 20 years, but there's no "negative LE" to work with...or say, establish "ten years plus remaining LE" as the sentence.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by GrayAnderson »

By the way, can someone remind me whether Armageddon is set in 2007 or 2008?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Junghalli »

Stuart wrote:That's an issue I intend to pick up in the next book. The bit about Robert E Lee becoming the man in charge of the veterans rehabilitation center was intended to be setting the stage for that.
That's good, but I think waiting until the third book(!) to deal with it in depth is much too late. It's something you want the reader to have a strong sense of early on in Armageddon. I will point out that one of my favorite parts of Armageddon by far was the part where we got the PoV of the mental patient who'd been tormented by a demon. I really got a sense of Hell as frightening and horrific. IMO, the story could have used quite a bit more of that.

Honestly it's not that Armageddon doesn't have fairly extraneous subplots that could be shortened or dispensed with to make room for more in-depth establishment on how bad Hell actually is. The subplots about the demon trying to establish a cult on Earth and the Richard Dawkins subplot both strike me as adding relatively little to the overall story (of course the Dawkins subplot could also easily be an opportunity, in this respect).
I'd point out, it's made clear that Jade Kim does have severe issues as the result of her treatment in Hell and they're not resolved by a long way.
The trouble with Kim is she basically tells us she has issues, once, in a section that as I recall maybe lasted all of one paragraph, but we never see her, say, exhibiting signs of PTSD or long-term traumatization or having nightmares or, well, anything that would really show that she's struggling with the after-effects of a horrific experience. Or at least I certainly don't remember it. To be perfectly blunt it came off to me more as a not very tasteful plot device to make her sleep with Ceasar than anything else. It's a showing and telling problem, something that I think is the source of a lot of the story's weaknesses (it's the same thing with the ammunition shortage thing where we're told it's a problem but we never see it causing any problems for the soldiers on the ground, say by having them run dangerously low on ammunition while campaigning in Hell or something, which I think would have been much more effective at conveying the idea that it was actually a close thing).
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by GrayAnderson »

Junghali: There are some semi-extraneous bits, but part of the problem is that some of those are laying pipe for later things. It's always hard to tell what's more frustrating: A Chekhov's Gun which doesn't fire for four acts, or failing to have the gun appear on stage until fired and wondering where it came from. Lee was an interesting bit that was carefully slipped in during the first novel and then developed appropriately in the second. Dawkins seems to have gotten left by the wayside...he was in two or three chapters in the first book but completely omitted from the second.

I'll agree with Junghali: The demon-establishes-a-cult bit can probably go. If you want to keep the Dawkins bit, perhaps slip him back in towards the end of the book with him 'settling in' somewhere so there's some closure. You can then include him or omit him in the third book, but if he's not going to be in the second (which is pretty clear by now), that thread should feel wrapped.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Edward Yee »

I have to admit, I didn't see anything of Jade Kim's issues other than her mention with the "eggs" conversation, plus the ominousness of piloting a helo again but being reminded of the harpies; in all her scenes as a consul she's been apparently level-headed and perfectly functional.

Personally I liked the gorgon's cult scene and would hope that you could find some way to keep her "Wiki Walking" scene. :lol: Barring that, then at least some reason for Capt. Crowleigh to have gotten the opportunity to be "first" into the Eternal City.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Bayonet »

Edward Yee wrote: I'm still confused though as to what exactly Paul did to fuck up the whole "Jesus" thing.
Jesus taught One Law; "Love one another." This is a doctrine that is only a little more restrictive than the Wiccan Rede of ,"An you harm no one, do what thy will."

A lot of the ascetic, anti sexual, and misogynistic teachings come from Paul's epistles. "But I say to the unmarried and to widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [that is, celibate] But if they have not continency, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. " (1 Cor 7:8-9)

Paul is very much a mixed bag. He also essentially released Christians from the OT Laws and taught that "All things are lawful for me; but not all things are helpful." (1 Cor 6:12)
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Junghalli »

GrayAnderson wrote:I'll agree with Junghali: The demon-establishes-a-cult bit can probably go. If you want to keep the Dawkins bit, perhaps slip him back in towards the end of the book with him 'settling in' somewhere so there's some closure. You can then include him or omit him in the third book, but if he's not going to be in the second (which is pretty clear by now), that thread should feel wrapped.
The Dawkins subplot could easily be an opportunity for showing how bad Hell is.

Imagine a scene of him being interrogated and recounting all the hideous tortures he's been subjected to. Or just have a PoV section from his perspective where we find out he's totally screwed up from all the horrors he's experienced.

Although really the whole subplot still seems unnecessary and pointless to me. You could just use one of the other Hell dudes for the same thing. I think there's something to be said for parsimony in these matters: the less major characters you have the easier it is to develop each one and the easier it is for the reader to care about them all.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

Didn't they manage to rescue Dawkins fairly early on? I mean, he was in there for weeks, which would be horrible... but if it were mentally crippling to him, none of the pre-Salvation War dead should be able to function at all.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by TimothyC »

Simon_Jester wrote:Didn't they manage to rescue Dawkins fairly early on? I mean, he was in there for weeks, which would be horrible... but if it were mentally crippling to him, none of the pre-Salvation War dead should be able to function at all.
Dawkins was only in the Hell pit for hours, or at most a day.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

That just makes it worse- he's exactly the wrong man to demonstrate the traumatic effects of Hell, because he was actively tortured for so little time that if he is seriously impaired, no one who'd been in there for years should be able to function at all.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Edward Yee »

I don't even recall Dawkins being actively tortured, just crucified and stuck in the flaming river; Randi found out very quickly, and soon afterward he was rescued.

Bayonet, thanks for clearing that up, I've been wondering that one for quite some time.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Junghalli »

Simon_Jester wrote:Didn't they manage to rescue Dawkins fairly early on? I mean, he was in there for weeks, which would be horrible... but if it were mentally crippling to him, none of the pre-Salvation War dead should be able to function at all.
I didn't say anything about him being mentally crippled, just noticeably traumatized (noticeable to somebody with access to the man's internal thoughts, at that). And different people respond differently to traumatic events (not to mention as was pointed out early on the original thread one might sort of become used to it over time).

Edit: well OK I said totally screwed up which could easily be interpreted as non-functional but it wasn't what I meant.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by atheistcanuck »

Edward Yee wrote:I don't even recall Dawkins being actively tortured, just crucified and stuck in the flaming river; Randi found out very quickly, and soon afterward he was rescued.

Bayonet, thanks for clearing that up, I've been wondering that one for quite some time.
Actually he was chained to a rock in a desert with embers or flakes of something burning falling on him, or something like that.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Jamesfirecat »

atheistcanuck wrote:
Edward Yee wrote:I don't even recall Dawkins being actively tortured, just crucified and stuck in the flaming river; Randi found out very quickly, and soon afterward he was rescued.

Bayonet, thanks for clearing that up, I've been wondering that one for quite some time.
Actually he was chained to a rock in a desert with embers or flakes of something burning falling on him, or something like that.

You're both wrong.

He was sent to wander a desert in the middle of an eternal sandstorm.

There was very much no rock that he was chained to, since I really don't recall the soldiers who freed him having to break any chains, just toss him into the portal kitten had opened.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Nick79 »

I think I recall from in the first novel that second life humans have a certain psychological resistance that prevents them from just losing their minds to the torture, so they would be forced to experience the torture fully no matter how long they were there.

So they may be quite screwed up by what they experienced, enough so that they do take years to fully process it, without it preventing them from doing what they need to do right now - essentially that however damaged you are, sanity and critical functionality will remain.

Some very stable, resilient people deal with terrible trauma this way here, but second life bodies seem to have the same assurances for psychological functionality as they do for physical functionality - if it's not enough to kill you, you'll get better.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by wickeddyno »

Habeed wrote:
This wouldn't work.

1. At which phase of death? A human can be brain dead, with all mental state variables erased, and still be breathing and their heart running. There can even be cultured cells alive from that person years after death.

2. If a person goes from completely alive to ashes in a fraction of a second, it's difficult to see how this technology could work. The casualties from the nuclear blast earlier in this book all survived their death.

The simplest explanation is that something is recording a person's memories throughout their entire life, and advanced technology allows one to access this 'backup log' and do everything we observe in this book. I've decided to call that 'something' a soul because it is an existing and well understood concept.
Ok, point taken, an ongoing backup process would be required. My point is that it seems to me to be less multiplicative of entities to assume this backup function is performed by the same mechanism that creates the second-life body after death. So instead of scanning the body state at the moment of death, this would maintain ongoing scans of all human beings and when they die, for whatever definition the mechanism has for death, then route the data to the resurrection function. I mean, obviously we're talking about technology that is even beyond Clarke's Law ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -- in this case it's indistinguishable from a power exceeding that of God Himself) and super-Clarkian mechanisms would be required for any of the scenarios we're discussing -- whether it's an ongoing constant scan-with-backup, a scan at the moment of death, or a capture of a naturally-occurring soul at the moment of death.

The question of what happens to people who are brain-dead but still breathing is an interesting one, and also whether those in persistent vegetative states are resurrected with fully restored mental capabilities. It would suck to be resurrected as a 2nd-lifer but with only the fragmentary memories and mentality that a person in a persistent vegetative state could muster.
Junghalli
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Junghalli »

Nick79 wrote:I think I recall from in the first novel that second life humans have a certain psychological resistance that prevents them from just losing their minds to the torture, so they would be forced to experience the torture fully no matter how long they were there.

So they may be quite screwed up by what they experienced, enough so that they do take years to fully process it, without it preventing them from doing what they need to do right now - essentially that however damaged you are, sanity and critical functionality will remain.

Some very stable, resilient people deal with terrible trauma this way here, but second life bodies seem to have the same assurances for psychological functionality as they do for physical functionality - if it's not enough to kill you, you'll get better.
That is sort of answering a Doylist criticism with a Wattsonian answer. The issue is not whether it makes sense in-universe for them to show little apparent signs of psychological disturbance from being subject to literally hellish torture but that it is (IMO) poor dramatics for it to be so.
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Kie99
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide Part Eighty Four Up

Post by Kie99 »

Jamesfirecat wrote:
atheistcanuck wrote:
Edward Yee wrote:I don't even recall Dawkins being actively tortured, just crucified and stuck in the flaming river; Randi found out very quickly, and soon afterward he was rescued.

Bayonet, thanks for clearing that up, I've been wondering that one for quite some time.
Actually he was chained to a rock in a desert with embers or flakes of something burning falling on him, or something like that.

You're both wrong.

He was sent to wander a desert in the middle of an eternal sandstorm.

There was very much no rock that he was chained to, since I really don't recall the soldiers who freed him having to break any chains, just toss him into the portal kitten had opened.
Nope.
Richard Dawkins writhed and twisted on the burning sand, trying to evade the flurries of searing flakes that tormented him. As far as he could see, he was in a featureless desert, broken only by the forms of other victims thrashing about in the same agony as him. He had no idea how long he had been here, all he could remember was the knife plunging into him and then everything round him converging into a single bright dot, the way an old-fashioned television did when the station closed down. Then the impression of a tunnel and the sudden impact of the pain as he had found himself here.
...

“Hell boss. Sir, stay still Sir, we’ll get you out of this. Just hold still.” The tool-steel bolt-cutters sliced easily through even the thick bronze shackles.
Chapter 28 of Armageddon?

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 4#p2725504
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